10273 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...
 I'm not trying to determine which system is better or deeper, I'm just saying that weapon modding does exist in ME2.

Its an easy to answer for me.That with more freedom and possibilities.I cant even choose to install the headshot upgrade before
the anti-armor one.What one thing has to do with the other?Are heads especially thick armored or what?

[tonnactus]

brfritos wrote...



So the omni-tool upgrades - called armor upgrades now - aren't THAT different.

They were different in the early game.Some version only improve the shield strenght significantly,the other cooldown
and/or first aid cooldown.
The same is true with bioamps.But true,savant amps were superior in every way,but the player get them at level 40-50.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...
Its an easy to answer for me.That with more freedom and possibilities.I cant even choose to install the headshot upgrade before
the anti-armor one.What one thing has to do with the other?Are heads especially thick armored or what?

That was never the issue.  Terror_k made an inaccurate statement about ME2's supposed lack of weapon modding.  There is weapon modding in ME2, so Terror_k was incorrect.

[Lumikki]

lazuli wrote...

tonnactus wrote...
Its an easy to answer for me.That with more freedom and possibilities.I cant even choose to install the headshot upgrade before
the anti-armor one.What one thing has to do with the other?Are heads especially thick armored or what?

That was never the issue.  Terror_k made an inaccurate statement about ME2's supposed lack of weapon modding.  There is weapon modding in ME2, so Terror_k was incorrect.

You are maybe right, but there is different how good something is and how it's done. How good something is, is very subjective depending who's looking the situation. How ever, complexity and induvidualism in modification was "better" in ME1 as more variety. In ME2 it's more general and simplifyed. Yes, it's still there, but very limited ways.

[bjdbwea]

And that limitation wasn't necessary. You can always provide the option to skip the "boring" stuff, or in the case of inventory and customization, offer an automatic alternative. That way, the shooter fans can concentrate on the pew-pew, and everyone else can enjoy the other things that make an RPG.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 06 septembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[Lumikki]

Just because someone likes ME2 doesn't make them some shooter fan. You view point is unreasonable and basicly it's not just hating the game, but thinking that because game isn't for you, it has to be other people fault, so you start blaming others.

Modifié par Lumikki, 06 septembre 2010 - 10:49 .

[theelementslayer]

I am a huge RPG and shooter and racing and action fan. Im sorry but the whole point of an RPG is playing a role, mass effect you play as shepard, it isnt predefined, it isnt a set story (in the way that you carry it out. It is an RPG.

[bjdbwea]

Lumikki wrote...

Just because someone likes ME2 doesn't make them some shooter fan. You view point is unreasonable and basicly it's not just hating the game, but thinking that because game isn't for you, it has to be other people fault, so you start blaming others.

Oh, please. Are you now also one of those who call every criticism "hate"?

I actually offered the best solution for everyone: Add proper RPG elements, but make them optional. Shooter fans can already skip the "boring" conversations, so why not expand upon that concept and make other elements optional too? For example, the game could ask you whether you want to walk or drive somewhere, or be dropped right into the action. Just as easily you could implement a real inventory as well as an auto-equip function for those who don't want to "waste" time with it. If some people want to have a lesser game, let them, but why deny everyone the features?

Modifié par bjdbwea, 06 septembre 2010 - 11:17 .

[Lumikki]

You are trying to solve problem what you have, by offering solution what you think solves situation. How ever, you never even asked what the others really want, you just assume that they are some shooter fans and then solve they issues way you think it's good, but you don't even know who these others really are. Meaning don't make assumption that they are some shooter fans, because they could be something else.

Modifié par Lumikki, 06 septembre 2010 - 11:46 .

[FataliTensei]

Lumikki wrote...

You are trying to solve problem what you have, by offering solution what you think solves situation. How ever, you never even asked what the others really want, you just assume that they are some shooter fans and then solve they issues way you think it's good, but you don't even know who these others really are. Meaning don't make assumption that they are some shooter fans, because they could be something else.

Well most of your posts have him/her right anyway

[sevach]

First i can't believe inventory is still being discussed.



But anyway, i think that if they gave us dozens, instead of a thousand different guns and upgrades, it would make everyone happy.



So that we have options, but we don't have to spend time managing junk items

[Sidney]

bjdbwea wrote...

And that limitation wasn't necessary. You can always provide the option to skip the "boring" stuff, or in the case of inventory and customization, offer an automatic alternative. That way, the shooter fans can concentrate on the pew-pew, and everyone else can enjoy the other things that make an RPG.

The problem isn't that inventory is gone. It just isn't the "kill a guy looi his corpse" stupidity that you like and the associated vendor trash selling. For someone who likes to use imagination you are desperately short on it. Why don't you just pretend that in a hot battle zone you don't have time to rummage dead bodies - as no doubt you would not in reality. Then imagine that you've got a cleaner team following you that is picking up all the dead guy's stuff and that is where you Cerberus funding comes from? Are you so locked into seeing a corpse, clicking on it and adding an item to your inventory that you just can't survive a game without it? Because, in the end, that is all that ain't there. You still loot chests and boxes. Call them PDA's and safes. You still find magical items- call them bullet accelerators or whatever the upgrades are because +10% to biotics is just the same as +10% nature magic in the end in game terms.  You still put magical items and armor on your character - that whole armor selection and armor component selection is nothing but the paper doll stuff again and you can't control not just functional elements but aesthetic elements which you could never do in anything prior to ME2. You still pick what weapons to use and each mission out you have 3-5 guns on your person which is still more than you likely had for DAO or BG2  which you don't bleat on about being limited.

Is DAO less an RPG because you don't manage non-magical arrows and
sling bullets? I mean is that a dumbed down shooter element or
streamlinging a bad process to create a better game? Nothing from
bioware requires you to mamage and repair your inventory like FO does,
does that make it less of an RPG experience? I mean shouldn't armor need
repairs after getting wrecked in every fight you are in doesn't that really add to the fun and joy of the game? Is that just shooter elements or the decision to streamline a game to create a better experience? Is Jade Empire a shooter even though it has less inventory than ME2 or in a world where the characters don't use a ton of weapons or wear armor does it just fit the game world better?

For soemone who can't shut up about "shooter" fans and presents himself/herself up as a paragon of intellect I've really come to the conclusion that you are an dimwit who lacks any form of imagination and can not step outside of an EXTREMELELY narrow construct of the kind of game mechanics you can play. No one wants less of the dialog what people want is less tedium. Dialog and character are fun.  Planet scanning isn't fun. Looting dead bodies is basically the same gameplay mechanism except instead of scanning planets you scan a room. It also isn't any fun either. Fighting swarms of bad guys with cool powers is fun and challenging. Standing around clicking on corpses is neither. Buying new and useful upgrades is fun and exciting, selling 8 Hand Cannon IV's isn't. Finding an enhancement to a biotic amp on an alien world - fun. Finding a Foozle Mark III that is useless to you isn't.

[kingcole225]

FMT wrote...

One of my disappointments with this game other than the really lame story (gameplay is fantastic). Is people like Liara and Wrex dont even mention or notice any of your teammates you had before in ME 1 like if you bring Garrus and Tali with you to see Liara. There's no "Hi Tali! hows it going or Hi Garrus!" to me it was lame, if you saw a friend from two years ago your not gonna stand there and say nothing and dont even make an attepmt to acknowledge there existance.

Did you just say that the Mass Effect story was lame? Gtfo of here

[Terror_K]

lazuli wrote...

tonnactus wrote...
Its an easy to answer for me.That with more freedom and possibilities.I cant even choose to install the headshot upgrade before
the anti-armor one.What one thing has to do with the other?Are heads especially thick armored or what?

That was never the issue.  Terror_k made an inaccurate statement about ME2's supposed lack of weapon modding.  There is weapon modding in ME2, so Terror_k was incorrect.

No, I'm not incorrect. That's not weapon modding at all. The upgrades are completely linear and you can easily just get them all with no trade-offs, while turning ammo mods into powers was a completely retarded move because it makes no sense at all that a gun mod would be a character skill and that certain classes suddenly can't use them. BioWare just did that because, thanks to their dumbing down of the game, they couldn't think of a decent series of powers to give soldiers and the two soldier hybrids.

It's not weapon modding when you don't actually mod the gun and can't customise it, there's no trade-offs and no limits. Weapon modding means actually modifying your weapon (or armour for armour modding) and having to pick and choose the best mods for the job. When everybody just ends up with the same thing because everybody just fully upgrades everything and you're thus not customising the weapons at all in any way, then it fails to be modding. All you've pointed out is not where modding is but the elements that have (shallowly) replaced it and where things that were previously mods went.

[Solaris Paradox]

Terror_K wrote...

No, I'm not incorrect. That's not weapon modding at all. The upgrades are completely linear and you can easily just get them all with no trade-offs, while turning ammo mods into powers was a completely retarded move because it makes no sense at all that a gun mod would be a character skill and that certain classes suddenly can't use them. BioWare just did that because, thanks to their dumbing down of the game, they couldn't think of a decent series of powers to give soldiers and the two soldier hybrids.

No, it's still technically weapon-modding, just not the kind that Mass Effect 1 had. It's a semantic quibble. We all know what you mean, so let's not argue this point any further.

[Murmillos]

weapon upgrading is NOT weapon modding.

[Terror_K]

No game would consider a simple, linear upgrade system as modding. It's NOT modding.

[bzurn]

Lets see does the research terminal in ME2 say mod your weapons, or upgrade your weapons? I'm pretty sure the word upgrade is used, not mod. This is the correct term as there is only one path to take, and unlocking higher levels of weapon upgrades allows secondary upgrades to be applied to the weapons. If it were a mod there would be more than one path to take that presents you with a choice in how to customize the appearance or performance of the item.

Ammo powers are not mods, though they are very close to the definition. They do take the roll that weapon mods had in the previous game, but in the end we must classify them as powers, since the effect of toggling them is governed by your rank on the character screen. Since only 1/2 of the classes in the game (stock class abilities from a virgin playthrough) can not use these abilities (not an item, but a skill, you see) then they are powers, not mods.

Mass effect 2 does not have weapon mods. They could easily incorporated at the weapon locker screen, but the choice was made to remove them from the game.

ME2 does not have weapon modding.

Modifié par bzurn, 07 septembre 2010 - 07:44 .

[brfritos]

Terror_K wrote...

No game would consider a simple, linear upgrade system as modding. It's NOT modding.

Of course is upgrade: the ME2 upgrade way.

Retarded, dumb, oversimplified and doesen't require the player to use their brain.

[shootist70]

bjdbwea wrote...

And that limitation wasn't necessary. You can always provide the option to skip the "boring" stuff, or in the case of inventory and customization, offer an automatic alternative. That way, the shooter fans can concentrate on the pew-pew, and everyone else can enjoy the other things that make an RPG.

I don't think it was ever about focusing on pew-pew, but on dramatic elements.

Let's take a real objective look at ME1 and see what we really have here: a few fairly short story missions that are padded out. The padding largely consists of exploring non plot related empty areas looking for rewards/experience, or interacting with vendors and inventory to enable tinkering with gear set ups. We're completely forced out of any plot progressive or dramatic content and instead are focused on item/experience based intrinsic reward gratification.

ME2 tries to turn this on its head. It's non-plot related content might deviate from the main plot altogether, but at least it is focused on the dramatic content of character development. As such it does actually flesh out all the extra characters in the story and does focus on story and drama almost all the way. It isn't focused on empty, item/experience reward based gameplay.

It's a decent trade off, because, as with most RPG's, excessive gear/skill tinkering doesn't usually add anything that's worth holding everything up for. In many RPG's it's just a cheap way to pad out content with rat-maze, intrinsic reward gameplay to make up for a real shortage of actual dramatic content. ME2 doesn't have that shortage. It delivers a truck-load of it, even if it is a bit unfocused.

Modifié par shootist70, 07 septembre 2010 - 09:24 .

[Jebel Krong]

Terror_K wrote...

lazuli wrote...

tonnactus wrote...
Its an easy to answer for me.That with more freedom and possibilities.I cant even choose to install the headshot upgrade before
the anti-armor one.What one thing has to do with the other?Are heads especially thick armored or what?

That was never the issue.  Terror_k made an inaccurate statement about ME2's supposed lack of weapon modding.  There is weapon modding in ME2, so Terror_k was incorrect.

No, I'm not incorrect. That's not weapon modding at all. The upgrades are completely linear and you can easily just get them all with no trade-offs, while turning ammo mods into powers was a completely retarded move because it makes no sense at all that a gun mod would be a character skill and that certain classes suddenly can't use them. BioWare just did that because, thanks to their dumbing down of the game, they couldn't think of a decent series of powers to give soldiers and the two soldier hybrids.

It's not weapon modding when you don't actually mod the gun and can't customise it, there's no trade-offs and no limits. Weapon modding means actually modifying your weapon (or armour for armour modding) and having to pick and choose the best mods for the job. When everybody just ends up with the same thing because everybody just fully upgrades everything and you're thus not customising the weapons at all in any way, then it fails to be modding. All you've pointed out is not where modding is but the elements that have (shallowly) replaced it and where things that were previously mods went.

as much as ammo 'powers' are retarded, the idea that you'd have to have a weapon mod trade-off effect is also retarded - a lot of the me2 upgrades (linear though they may be) specifically incorporate all of the old 'mods' from me1 into the weapon's functionality. in some respects most 'limitations' are illogical given the level of technology presented - including the ammo system (the worst offender).

[Terror_K]

Jebel Krong wrote...

as much as ammo 'powers' are retarded, the idea that you'd have to have a weapon mod trade-off effect is also retarded - a lot of the me2 upgrades (linear though they may be) specifically incorporate all of the old 'mods' from me1 into the weapon's functionality. in some respects most 'limitations' are illogical given the level of technology presented - including the ammo system (the worst offender).

Without a trade-off and the need to pick and choose the game becomes shallow though. It's like if every item in Diablo 2 had unlimited sockets in it and it was just a matter of constantly filling them to create an uber, unstoppable weapon that can do everything all at once with all the benefits and no penalty. The point of modifying an item in an RPG is to customise it and give it the effect(s) you desire, generally ones that suit your class and style of play, and/or suit a particular situation.

Customisation is completely lost in a system that can give you everything all at once because of course everybody will do it (it's rather akin to thos God-modding items people make often in the modding community). Players shouldn't be able to have their cake and eat it too: that's almost always a bad thing for RPGs in this context. The point is that the player should have to put some thought into things or have to choose one thing over the other. Do I pick the silencer or the laser sight, because I don't get both... that sort of thing.

As it stands with the upgrade system it requires little to no thought from the player, which is pathetic, and just another case of dumbing down the genre and oversimplification just to appeal to those ADD-riddled gamers out there who don't want to put a single thought into anything that's not just shooting things and getting on with the game. Players with ME2 can simply just click the research upgrades as they get them without even thinking about what they were even upgrading and how, and just keep doing it until end game and get everything at max with no downsides at all. That's the type of simplistic and mindless gameplay games like Mass Effect should avoid, not embrace. The game practically plays itself for you in this regard and doesn't reward those who made smart decisions any more than those who just keep clicking "research upgrade" over and over and over.

ME2's whole system is pathetic. It's too easy to get every single item in the game and upgrade it fully with no drawbacks at all. If players ignored the mods in ME1 or just put random things in they'd either be missing out or wondering why their gun is overheating so much suddenly or why the radar keeps disappearing on them. Just another case of why ME2 is such a juvenile and lacking game and comes across as "Fisher Price: My First RPG" overall.

[Icinix]

Terror_K wrote...
(snip)
...comes across as "Fisher Price: My First RPG" overall.

 that is an awesome analogy.

[Solaris Paradox]

Terror_K wrote...

Without a trade-off and the need to pick and choose the game becomes shallow though.

No so much "shallow" as "simpler," but I get what you mean. In Mass Effect 2 it's more about fighting the fights than it is about preparing for them, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I'd prefer it if they had a more interesting equipment system to compliment the weapon variety next time.

I still maintain that having no inventory system at all is better than having one that's good in theory but crappily executed. Not to say the ideal case of having an inventory system that's good both in theory and execution isn't what I'd expect from a perfect world, but I know which of the two cases we actually have kept me consistently entertained.

And I still maintain that Dirge of Cerberus had pretty much the perfect intentory and weapon-modding system for a Mass Effect game.

[Solaris Paradox]

Terror_K wrote...

No game would consider a simple, linear upgrade system as modding. It's NOT modding.

You modify, i.e. change, upgrade, your weapons. It is therefore weapon-modding. Whether you want to call it that is another thing entirely, but the upgrade system is just Mass Effect 2's particular representation of weapon-modding.