10273 réponses à ce sujet

[Tokion]

I think they need a bar indicator to display the rate of fire, damage and handling statistics for all the weapons. The descriptions for all the weapons does not give enough info.

[FluxDeluxe]

Tokion wrote...

I think they need a bar indicator to display the rate of fire, damage and handling statistics for all the weapons. The descriptions for all the weapons does not give enough info.

Great idea ! Stats n Bars would be perfect

[Embrosil]

FluxDeluxe wrote...

Tokion wrote...

I think they need a bar indicator to display the rate of fire, damage and handling statistics for all the weapons. The descriptions for all the weapons does not give enough info.

Great idea ! Stats n Bars would be perfect

Agreed, we need at least the posibility to make a comparison.

[Kavadas]

Embrosil wrote...

Again, how do you know they have a different caliber? Show me a proof.

Download Notepad++, open up your Coalesced.ini, and do a quick search for "[SFXGameContent_Inventory.SFXWeapon_AssaultRifle]". 

That entry is the Avenger AR.  The first value listed in that entry is the Damage (per shot) value.  Now scroll down and notice that no two weapons have identical Damage values.  I can't even find any weapons that have identical RateOfFire values either.

For reference, the Mattock's Damage value is set at 50.8, is semi-auto, and with a 16 round magazine.  The Avenger is set to 10.8, rate of fire 850, with a 40 round magazine.  The Vindicator is set to 36.8 for damage, three round burst, with a 24 round magazine.

All weapons also have completely unique accuracy, recoil, and damage drop off at range values.

Edit: Here are the C.ini entries for the Avenger and Vindicator for a quick comparison:
Editx2: I went one further and threw in the Mattock's values complete with the actual developer notes included in BIOWeapon.ini (they'll be in green).

[SFXGameContent_Inventory.SFXWeapon_AssaultRifle] --> Avenger
Damage=(X=10.8,Y=10.8)
DamageAI=1.1f
DamageHench=0.55f
RateOfFire=(X=850,Y=850)
MagSize=(X=40,Y=40)
LowAmmoSoundThreshold=10
TracerSpawnOffset=5.0
bInfiniteAmmo=false
InitialMagazines=10
MaxSpareAmmo=(X=400,Y=400)
MinAimError=(X=1.4,Y=1.4)
MaxAimError=(X=6.2,Y=6.2)
AccFirePenalty=12.7f
AccFireInterpSpeed=12.0f
CrosshairRange=(X=30,Y=80)
MinZoomAimError=(X=0.5,Y=0.5)
MaxZoomAimError=(X=1.4f,Y=1.4f)
ZoomAccFirePenalty=28.35f
ZoomAccFireInterpSpeed=28.0f
ZoomCrosshairRange=(X=30,Y=50)
Recoil=(X=1,Y=1)
ZoomRecoil=(X=1,y=1)
RecoilInterpSpeed=10.f
RecoilFadeSpeed=0.95f
RecoilZoomFadeSpeed=0.90f
RecoilYawScale=0.2f
RecoilYawBias=0.0f
RecoilYawFrequency=4.0f
PrettyName=209727
GUIclassName=338199
GUIclassDescription=340840
GeneralDescription=338211
ShortDescription=339266
GUIImage=GUI_Codex_Images.AssaultRifle_512
IconRef=5
SteamSoundThreshold=1
NoAmmoFireSoundDelay=0.5
AI_BurstFireCount=(X=10,Y=40)
AI_BurstFireDelay=(X=0.65f,Y=3.25f)
AI_BurstFireMovingDelay=(X=0.65f,Y=2.f)
AI_AimDelay=(X=0.4,Y=0.4)

[SFXGameContent_Inventory.SFXWeapon_Needler] --> Vindicator
Damage=(X=36.8,Y=36.8)
DamageAI=1.1f
DamageHench=0.55f
RateOfFire=(X=900,Y=900)
MagSize=(X=24,Y=24)
LowAmmoSoundThreshold=15
TracerSpawnOffset=5.0
bUpgradesBasicWeapon=true
bInfiniteAmmo=false
InitialMagazines=4
MaxSpareAmmo=(X=96,Y=96)
BurstRounds=3
BurstRefireTime=0.625f
MinRefireTime=0.3f
MinAimError=(X=0.5,Y=0.5)
MaxAimError=(X=3.5,Y=3.5)
AccFirePenalty=19.0f
AccFireInterpSpeed=18.0f
CrosshairRange=(X=28,Y=60)
MinZoomAimError=(X=0.3f,Y=0.3f)
MaxZoomAimError=(X=1.2,Y=1.2)
ZoomAccFirePenalty=37f
ZoomAccFireInterpSpeed=35f
ZoomCrosshairRange=(X=25,Y=40)
Recoil=(X=0.2f,Y=0.2f)
ZoomRecoil=(X=0.2f,y=0.2f)
RecoilInterpSpeed=10.f
RecoilFadeSpeed=0.65f
RecoilZoomFadeSpeed=0.65f
RecoilYawScale=0.5f
RecoilYawBias=0.0f
RecoilYawFrequency=6.0f
PrettyName=209728
IconRef=10
GeneralDescription=338212
ShortDescription=339274
GUIImage=GUI_Codex_Images.Needler_512
SteamSoundThreshold=1
NoAmmoFireSoundDelay=0.7
AI_BurstFireCount=(X=2,Y=4)
AI_BurstFireDelay=(X=0.75f,Y=3.5f)
AI_BurstFireMovingDelay=(X=0.75f,Y=2.25f)
AI_AimDelay=(X=0.6,Y=0.6)

[SFXGameContentDLC_Desert.SFXWeapon_DesertAssaultRifle] --> Mattock
;; Damage
Damage=(X=50.4,Y=50.4)
DamageAI=0.8f
DamageHench=0.4f
;; Same ROF as the Anti-mat
RateOfFire=(X=750,Y=750)
TracerSpawnOffset=2.0

;; Not sure about the ammo, should probably be low because the gun should feel powerful
MagSize=(X=16,Y=16)
LowAmmoSoundThreshold=6
InitialMagazines=4
MaxSpareAmmo=(X=64,Y=64)

;; Burst is set so the player has to re-engage the trigger to continue firing
BurstRounds=1
BurstRefireTime=999.0f
AIBurstRefireTimeMin=0.1
AIBurstRefireTimeMax=0.2

MinAimError=(X=1.6,Y=1.6)
MaxAimError=(X=4.0,Y=4.0)
AccFirePenalty=320.0f
AccFireInterpSpeed=420.0f
CrosshairRange=(X=35,Y=65)

;; In zoom recoil is very similar to the Needler
;; Recoil
;; Zoomed accuracy
MinZoomAimError=(X=0.35f,Y=0.35f)
MaxZoomAimError=(X=1.5,Y=1.5)
ZoomAccFirePenalty=40f
ZoomAccFireInterpSpeed=38f
ZoomCrosshairRange=(X=25,Y=40)

;; Recoil is completely based off the anti-mat rifle
Recoil=(X=3.0f,Y=3.0f)
ZoomRecoil=(X=1.5,Y=1.5)
RecoilInterpSpeed=15.f
RecoilFadeSpeed=3.0f
RecoilZoomFadeSpeed=0.95f
RecoilYawScale=0.2f
RecoilYawBias=-0.2f
RecoilYawFrequench=60

;; GUI
PrettyName=362192
IconRef=2
GeneralDescription=362193
ShortDescription=362194
GUIImage="DLC_GUI_MCR_01.HeavyAssaultRifle_512"

;; AI
AI_BurstFireCount=(X=2,Y=6)
AI_BurstFireDelay=(X=0.65f,Y=2.3f)
AI_BurstFireMovingDelay=(X=0.5f,Y=2.f)
AI_AimDelay=(X=0.3,Y=0.3)

Now please stop being so horribly ignorant and wrong.  Plus how could anyone not notice the difference in damage between something like the Widowmaker and Mantis?  How stupid do you think the posters on this board are?  There's a 318 point difference in damage (Mantis does 50.1, Widowmaker does 368.1)!

And to go even further if you include the +15% weapon damage from Soldier's Combat Mastery's evolved power, Commando, and the possible +60% damage from the six sniper rifle upgrades, you end up with:

Mantis: 50.1 + (50.1*0.15) + (50.1*0.6) = 87.675
Widowmaker: 368.1 = (368.1*0.15) + (368.1*0.6) = 644.175
644.175 - 87.675 = 556.5

You never noticed a 556.5 point difference between the two sniper rifles?  Do you really expect anyone on this forum to believe you?

Modifié par Kavadas, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:22 .

[kinedave]

Embrosil wrote...

FluxDeluxe wrote...

Tokion wrote...

I think they need a bar indicator to display the rate of fire, damage and handling statistics for all the weapons. The descriptions for all the weapons does not give enough info.

Great idea ! Stats n Bars would be perfect

Agreed, we need at least the posibility to make a comparison.

Why? Stop being so dependent on numbers and just use the guns. Get a feel for what works for you in what situation. If I know I'm going to be in a closed in, tight firefight then I'll probably take the Revenant, while if I'm in a bit more of an open area with a little distance between me and whatever, the Mattock would be my rifle of choice.

It's all about how each gun feels. It's not simply "blamblamblam" against "ratatatatatatata", and you'd have to be slightly idiotic to dismiss them as such.

Each works differently, each feels different.

[only1sgop]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

Embrosil wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

So more people who think that RPG is some sort of lame combat system instead of a role playing game.

I do understand that some people have a certain obsession with statistics but stats are a means to an end, not the end. They are simply a mechanic adapted from tabletop wargaming by people like Gary Gygax so we could simulate combat with our little tabletop models while roleplaying. However, the mechanic itself was not the roleplaying, nor the most interesting part of roleplaying.

I do appreciate that many people love managing statistics and inventory. Everytime world of warcraft dumbs down its stats even further, many people complain because thats a critical part of the game for them. However, you don't get to throw a game out of the RPG club because it doesn't use stats. You can try but everyone will ignore you.

That is not an obsession. If you go buy a gun today you will not be interested in a rate of fire, range, type of ammo, damage etc.? You will choose based upon what? If it  fires like ratatatata or boom boom?

I'd take the numbers back anytime. For now, it seems much like choosing between "ratatatata" and "boom boom". Which is an insult.

Borderlands gun stat system has more depth than the Mass Effect 2 gun system to compare the guns easier. Bring back the graphs from ME1!

[Whatever42]

The charts from ME1 wouldn't cut it. For example, the Tempest has a higher DPS than the Locust. However, I prefer the locust because I can land every shot right right where I point my gun and my effective dps will be higher. However, at close ranges, the tempest would be far more effective. And for squadmates, who never miss, the Tempest is also the most effective.



Again, with the sniper rifles ammo becomes a big deal. I can deliver faster DPS with the the incisor because I don't have to take my scope off target. However, each shot does less damage which means I will burn through ammo faster. Also, with a mantis, I will be up and down much more quickly, which is good in many fights if you're not a soldier with time dilation. However, on some levels, the incisor may be better because you're not under much fire.



DPS is a poor stat in almost every game and only misleads people.

[Tokion]

kinedave wrote...

Embrosil wrote...

FluxDeluxe wrote...

Tokion wrote...

I think they need a bar indicator to display the rate of fire, damage and handling statistics for all the weapons. The descriptions for all the weapons does not give enough info.

Great idea ! Stats n Bars would be perfect

Agreed, we need at least the posibility to make a comparison.

Why? Stop being so dependent on numbers and just use the guns. Get a feel for what works for you in what situation. If I know I'm going to be in a closed in, tight firefight then I'll probably take the Revenant, while if I'm in a bit more of an open area with a little distance between me and whatever, the Mattock would be my rifle of choice.

It's all about how each gun feels. It's not simply "blamblamblam" against "ratatatatatatata", and you'd have to be slightly idiotic to dismiss them as such.

Each works differently, each feels different.

We are talking about the presentation of individual guns. How the hell would you know the difference between all the rifles if you havn't used it before?

Modifié par Tokion, 17 septembre 2010 - 03:40 .

[geoffsbg]

Why can't we all just get along??



Seriously though. Someone wrote a few hundred pages back that a lot of the console vs. pc, ME1 vs ME2 fan disagreements aren't even related, and I agree for the most part. Whatever the issue, both 'camps' are pushing for things that aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. A solution that is acceptable to both sides doesnt seem like it'd be too hard. For example; some stats to weapons and an easy to use inventory system that has layers of depth to it - you can go crazy with it if you want (rpg fans), but can pretty much ignore it and still play the game just fine (console/fps fans). Lots of customization options for class building, with several simplistic paths to follow by default. Exploration options that allow you to spend time investigating things, but can be skipped or shortened w/o gimping you. Etc, etc.



It seems to me that most things that rpg fans like won't ruin the game for us FPS fans so long as they are reasonably implemented and don't interrupt the flow of gameplay. The ME1 inventory, and having to stop periodically to 'omni-gel' everything was pretty bad in that way. However, eliminating inventory altogether was a VERY extreme solution for that. I just think they need to put their thinking caps on and get creative about ways to make the game pleasing to both camps, while we fans need to accept that it won't be perfect for everyone.

[Whatever42]

geoffsbg, we're all RPG fans here. And we have all played games with inventory systems, good and bad. And often I don't even think we disagree on what would make a great game. I think most of the debate is more of a "is it worth the time and effort for Bioware to reinvent this yet again"? For example, I was taken aback at the lack of an inventory system in ME2 but I got used to it and still immensely enjoyed the game.

Now do I need Bioware to take significant time and effort to create and implement a new inventory system for me to enjoy ME3? Not in the slightest. I simply would enjoy more options within their current system. On the other hand, some people think ME is crap without a traditional RPG inventory system and will throw the entire game out of the RPG club and possibly out the window. It's more on these points we disagree.

My fear is that large changes to the core mechanics at this point might necessitate another "reboot" of my character. I want as much continuity as possible, even if the mechanics are less than ideal. I also want Bioware working on story and character far more than I want them spending time working on reinventing mechanics. These guys have a budget - every hour spent designing a new inventory system is an hour away from other things.

But all our campaigning is pointless right now anyway. Bioware has long since taken all the feedback onboard and is going to do what they are going to do.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 17 septembre 2010 - 04:51 .

[Whatever42]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

What's the point of getting a "feel" for a gun here? It's distracting at best. If I want to "feel" a gun, I just go shoot some real targets, not speculate on Revencraps and Batducks.

Commander Shepard is supposed to be a gun pro, so his ability to quickly judge a weapon is a MUST.

Stats don't tell you that in this case. You would need an analysis of the gun, "use this gun for highdamage at longer ranges because of its higher accuracy and good damage. Sniper rifles provide better damage but have limited ammunition and are better saved for quick up and down fights where you face lots of fire."

Or I can play the game 10 minutes and figure that out myself.

WoW has all the stats on its weapons and abilities but people run test cases, create models, and debate for months on which ability/weapon/stat is the best in each circumstance. The stats on it, for the average person, are highly misleading.

In this game, you can figure out easily which gun you like the best in which circumstance. Stats like DPS would be pointless.

[brfritos]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

DPS is a poor stat in almost every game and only misleads people.

Pure DPS is not a good indicator, I agree. The 381.6 DPS of Widow and 50.1 of Mantis are misleading because they will do this damage with ALL THE ORIGINAL UPGRADES intalled (it's five, remeber?).

That's what accuracy, rate of fire, magazine capacity, type of fire (bursts or single shot), best type of damage (if shields/armor/barriers) are for, to indicate how a weapon behave.
But we don't have those in ME2 in the weapons description, we have a general "this weapon is best against...".
Is laughable the description of the Geth Assault Rifle, comparing it with the Vindicator.

So instead having a accurate table of weapons discription, we need to use trial and error.
Very RPG isn't?

When fighting in Heastrom I use the Tempest, not the Locust.
Against geth the Tempest deals much more damage with less shots, you only need to fire in bursts.
Also, a Vanguard equiped with the Tempest is much more deadly when charging against enemies that have shields/barriers.

At least Cristina Norman gave me some hope with the upgrades:

For me3 i would like upgrades to more clearly translate into visible stat changes door players

...

One thing I don't love about the me2 upgrade system is players need to take it on faith that most upgrades do anything at all

From her twitter

Modifié par brfritos, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:43 .

[Whatever42]

brfritos wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

DPS is a poor stat in almost every game and only misleads people.

Pure DPS is not a good indicator, I agree. The 381.6 DPS of Widow and 50.1 of Mantis are misleading because they will do this damage with ALL THE ORIGINAL UPGRADES intalled (it's five, remeber?).

That's what accuracy, rate of fire, magazine capacity, type of fire (bursts or single shot), best type of damage (if shields/armor/barriers) are for, to indicate how a weapon behave.
But we don't have those in ME2 in the weapons description, we have a general "this weapon is best against...".
Is laughable the description of the Geth Assault Rifle, comparing it with the Vindicator.

So instead having a accurate table of weapons discription, we need to use trial and error.
Very RPG isn't?

When fighting in Heastrom I use the Tempest, not the Locust.
Against geth the Tempest deals much more damage with less shots, you only need to fire in bursts.
Also, a Vanguard equiped with the Tempest is much more deadly when charging against enemies that have shields/barriers.

At least Cristina Norman gave me some hope with the upgrades:

For me3 i would like upgrades to more clearly translate into visible stat changes door players

...

One thing I don't love about the me2 upgrade system is players need to take it on faith that most upgrades do anything at all

From her twitter

I pretty much agree with you. I just believe that for such information to be useful that it would require more than a few stats.

World of Warcraft gives you tons of statistics but they rarely tell you the story. Players have to test and model weapons, stats, abilities to provide best option scenarios for various situations. So in PvP, burst damage is more important than dps. In raids, you have to maintain dps for long periods of time so you would evaulate it differently than a 5-person dungeon. Some weapons will improve better with certain buffs than others. Some stats are best when combined with other stats.

So I agree that a chart and analysis would allow you to pick the best weapons for the best situations. I certainly read up on people's testing with great interest and found it valuable. And if Bioware wants to provide us with a page somewhere that tells us that, I would be very pleased.

I've just talked with too many players who make bad choices because the stats tell a misleading story. There needs to be additional analysis. And I'm worried that a few poor stats might do more harm than good for people's enjoyment of the game. For example, always picking the highest dps weapon.

[Kavadas]

All modding systems for ME3 and whatnot aside, ME3 really needs to supply the players with some actual data on the weapons.

What would I like to see, for the sake of versimillitude and tossing archaic RPG conventions aside, would be the following for each weapon:

• Weapon Caliber/Cartridge Size (in place of a pure damage value, too video gamey to just give raw data like that.  It's not like the Army handed me an M4 and then was all, "It does 14.6 points of damage per shot, maggot!");
• Muzzle Velocity (this in conjunction with the cartridge size should give players a shot at deducing a great estimate of a raw damage value)
• Rate of Fire (in Rounds Per Minute);
• Magazine Capacity; and
• Maximum Effective Range (in meters).

Really, that's all the data we need to deduce just about everything there is to deduce about a weapon and it's presented in a realistic fashion.

Modifié par Kavadas, 17 septembre 2010 - 07:05 .

[Kavadas]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

ME1 explains how there just can't be a caliber. Same for muzzle velocity. Since it's a block of metal chopped and thrown out at high (close to light, as I remember) speed.

Does every single weapons' projectile turn out to be sand grain sized, though?  I figured there could be a little variation between the weapons.  Seems to me the Widowmaker does more than just accelerate that grain of metal faster than, say, an Avenger. 

I assumed it was slightly larger as well.  Or is the difference really just in the muzzle velocity and nothing else?  ME2 and the wiki don't seem to supply much info on specifics like that.

If the projectile size is truly uniform across all weapons then, yeah, that data point doesn't need to be included in weapon descriptions.

Modifié par Kavadas, 17 septembre 2010 - 08:24 .

[upsettingshorts]

Kavadas wrote...
]Does every single weapons' projectile turn out to be sand grain sized, though?

Don't see why they would be the same size.  For reasons you go into.

There are reasons different calibers exist in real life, and I doubt they'd do away with them in the future just because they thought of a more efficient way to store the ammunition.

[Pocketgb]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
*snippet*
For example, always picking the highest dps weapon.

In Demon's Souls there's a sword called the Dragon Bone Smasher, and simply put it is the one weapon that deals the most damage in one hit.
But what's not listed is its attack speed.
What's not listed is its recovery time. Nor how long in the swing it actually hits, nor the range at which it hits, nor are many other indicators showed or listed.

At first glance it appears that the developers have left the player screwed. However, all one has to do to know all of these variables is to just swing the danged thing themselves. This is more a less the case with ME2.

[Lumikki]

Yeah, but people don't know how to pick weapons if they don't see it as numbers. *wink*

[Moonasha]

Reguarding the weapon stats, I'd like to see perhaps some "documentation" by the manufacturers of the weapon. That way you can see stats, liek caliber, ROF, mag size, but not have it turn into a spreadsheet game.

[Terror_K]

Geez... what do people have against seeing stats in a game? I thought you were all supposed to be BioWare and RPG fans. Does it really harm your game so much to see some numbers now and then? Many of us want it... I fail to see how it really effects those who don't care about them for them to be there. If you're really that bothered by it, you could always have it so that on the weapon selection screens it allows you to toggle between seeing either the description or the stats for the weapon, and that way if numbers are really so damn scary you can just avoid them. It's not like they affect your gameplay, so I don't see why those of us that want them there should miss out. The fact they were gone from ME2 is just one of the clear pieces of evidence as to how dumbed-down for the common gamer it was. Nobody had a problem with there being stats on the guns in ME1, but now suddenly we have people crying at the idea of them being in ME3.

[upsettingshorts]

Terror_K wrote...

Geez... what do people have against seeing stats in a game? I thought you were all supposed to be BioWare and RPG fans. Does it really harm your game so much to see some numbers now and then? Many of us want it... I fail to see how it really effects those who don't care about them for them to be there. If you're really that bothered by it, you could always have it so that on the weapon selection screens it allows you to toggle between seeing either the description or the stats for the weapon, and that way if numbers are really so damn scary you can just avoid them. It's not like they affect your gameplay, so I don't see why those of us that want them there should miss out. The fact they were gone from ME2 is just one of the clear pieces of evidence as to how dumbed-down for the common gamer it was. Nobody had a problem with there being stats on the guns in ME1, but now suddenly we have people crying at the idea of them being in ME3.

Way to completely miss the entire point.

ME1: Weapons of the same type behaved exactly the same.  Objectively the only difference was those stats you so lovingly champion.  The stats reflected the only actual difference between the weapons you start out with on Eden Prime and Spectre X gear.   The problem isn't with the stats, it's that the weapons only improved, they were never different.   The item progression in Mass Effect 1 is just a slow progression to Spectre gear and Colossus armor.  Mass Effect 1 as far as weapons go presents the illusion of choice.  You're just going to end up using the objectively better weapon.  Upgrades offer true customizability where people are free to choose their preferences.

ME2: No stats, the weapons do not improve, but there is variety in performance through a variety of factors.  Each weapon has a short paragraph that details their strengths and weaknesses, and that's it.   The part of this people favor is that each weapon handles differently, not the lack of stats describing it.   There is no item progression of the same fashion in Mass Effect 2, but weapons are different enough that you can find "Revenant vs. Mattock" and other similar threads in the forum here.   Mass Effect 2 gives the player actual choice at the expense of item progression.

Ideally, there would be a way to combine the strengths of both systems.

Furthermore, the constant labeling of anyone who prefers anything other than traditional RPG mechanics as "dumb" is getting really, really old.  Some of the people throwing that accusation are among the thickest people on the internet.  So let's drop it, shall we?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 septembre 2010 - 12:07 .