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Disappointment With Mass Effect 2? An Open Discussion.


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#1326
Kalfear

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SithLordExarKun wrote...

Terror_K wrote...


ME2 was a worse RPG than ME1. Whether it was a worse game full-stop is another matter.


And ME1 was a horrible RPG to begin with.


LOL, trolls like this so funny!

ME1 was the best RPG ever made, and I have played them all!

Was it perfect? Nope. But it was alot closer then ME2 turned out to be.

As for combat, I see how the devs make themselves think ME2 combat was better then ME1 but for me, the creation of different types of weapons with the add ons and ammo really changed the difficulty marker of ME1 combat, making it fun and challenging in many ways.

Other then the Horizon encounter with all the freaking Meat "husk" Sheilds. I never got that adreniline boosting excitment combat in ME2 that I did from many of ME1 encounters.

Now some of that is cause ME2 story so weaker then ME1 you didnt have the emotional connection to the outcome of the battle but some of it was just cause in ME2, every combat was basically the same thing over and you couldnt tweek your weapons at times.

Lots of shooters seem to complain that they found exploits in ME1 and they played game with those exploits turned on. Thats THEIR FAULT,I didnt go looking for exploits and didnt reuse one if I happen to find one as Im only ruining game for myself in long run when you play that way!

Bioware would have been smarter closing the exploits then spending so much time and money on a complete new system!

But what can you expect when you hire shooter first mentality people and remove the tried and true story first people.

#1327
Massadonious1

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If my opinion =/= your opinion, you = troll.



Brilliant Kalfear logic.



And if you've played them all, then you haven't been playing them long enough. I can name 5 off the top of my head that are clearly better RPG's than the original ME1.

#1328
uberdowzen

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bjdbwea wrote...

I thought that was obvious. Why can I configure vehicle controls, if there is no vehicle in the main game? Answer: It was meant to be part of it, but the game was rushed out of the door before it was finished. What about the two add-on characters? Everything indicates that they, too, were meant to be part of the main game, but not finished in time. Apart from that, there are cut corners everywhere. Can you really not see that? The end result isn't as disappointing as KotoR 2 was for example, but it's also nowhere nearly as finished and polished as ME 1 was.


Actually they said as soon as we knew there was vehicle in the game that it was going to be DLC. And good though the hammerhead was, it didn't feel like removed content.

Zaeed basically was in the game from the start. EA did go with their irritating free DLC for new copies thing but it was essentially in the game. I haven't played Kasumi yet (no spoilers please) but considering a full playthrough of ME2 takes 40-50 hours, I don't think they were lacking in content.

How did they cut corners? I think the game is a lot more polished than ME1 (a few examples, better cinematics, motion blur that doesn't turn the graphics to mud, no sticky cover, not so badly optomised that my video card fan goes into overdrive - literally often I can't hear the dialogue it's so loud).

#1329
KitsuneRommel

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bjdbwea wrote...

...nowhere nearly as finished and polished as ME 1 was.


WTH? ME1 had glitchy graphics, ran horribly on PC, had a lot worse animations than ME2, loaded every 50 meters in the Citadel, had horrible inventory system and while it was nice to get new loot constantly 95% of the items were totally worthless.

The only things better in ME1 were planetary exploration (even with all it's faults), talking to your squad during missions (even though they mostly said the same things) and the more CRPGey feel with the leveling (even though most of the points were spent on miniscule advances).

#1330
TJSolo

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Massadonious1 wrote...

If my opinion =/= your opinion, you = troll.

Brilliant Kalfear logic.

And if you've played them all, then you haven't been playing them long enough. I can name 5 off the top of my head that are clearly better RPG's than the original ME1.



Lets see Kal responded to someone that came on the ME forums and called ME a horrible RPG.
Wow that looks like an inflammatory remark that is meant to stir create an argument, not discussion.

How is naming 5 RPGs better than ME1 support the quote ME1 is a horrible RPG? Unless there can only be 5 good RPGs and anything else is horrible.
ME1 is in the Top 5 no too precise and people will detract, Top 10 no close but people will still detract, Top 15 RPGs of the last 5 years, with much acclaim. Horrible? No.

#1331
Massadonious1

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"Horrible" is inflamatory? Really? One could say Terror_K is also a troll with this brilliant logic, because he/she said "worse"

Regardless, IT IS STILL HIS OPINION AND IT DOESN'T MAKE HIM A TROLL, despite what Kalfear thinks.

And the fact that I could name 5 better RPG's than ME1 was to counter his own opinion that ME1 is the best RPG of all time, not whatever convoluted reasoning you invented to go on this little diataribe of yours.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 08 mai 2010 - 08:07 .


#1332
KitsuneRommel

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TJSolo wrote...

ME1 is in the Top 5 no too precise and people will detract, Top 10 no close but people will still detract, Top 15 RPGs of the last 5 years, with much acclaim. Horrible? No.


It would be pretty hard to really rank them anyway. Gold Box series (like The Curse of Azure Bonds) were great when they came out but by today's standards not so much.

#1333
SithLordExarKun

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Kalfear wrote...



LOL, trolls like this so funny!

ME1 was the best RPG ever made, and I have played them all!

Yes and this is coming from the man who claims to be 40 years old but still lives in his parents house.
Funny how anybody that doesn't like ME1 as much as you do or prefers ME2 is a troll.

Cool down, get out for some fresh air, get a job and stop relying on your parents. Just because one has a different opinion from yours does not make him/her a troll.


TJSolo wrote...




Lets see Kal responded to
someone that came on the ME forums and called ME a horrible RPG.
Wow
that looks like an inflammatory remark that is meant to stir create an
argument, not discussion.


Yes, because calling ME1 a
"horrible" RPG is an inflammatory comment but bashing people that like
ME2(something which you are overly fond of doing) isn't. Hurray for
logic.

Its cute to see you constantly policing the forums telling people "dont bash others based on their opinion" and now you're somehow trying to justify kalfs childish behaviour. Savage hypocrisy at its finest.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 08 mai 2010 - 08:27 .


#1334
Terror_K

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uberdowzen wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

That's not the only reason I (and many others) feel ME1 was better though.


Is the other reason less dialogue? Because I'm playing ME1 right now, and there isn't any less (I think overall there's actually slightly more companion dialogue.


It's a whole bunch of things. Overall one of my main beefs is that its a game that seems to do its damndest to hide its RPG nature at every turn, which in turn accounts for many problems. The overall style and feel of the game and the direction the team took with it and what they seemed to want to do with it overall probably best sums up my problems with it, because it encompasses a lot of them. I've specified these things so many times that I'd rather not repeat myself again and again and again if I can help it.

I'd actually be willing to go with ME2 being a worse RPG (statistics and "crunchy" stuff wise) if you admit that it's a better game than ME1.

Edit: I do actually have to add a caveat. I would be willing to say that it is a better RPG, but you, on top of having to say that ME2 is a better game, have to admit that it is still an RPG, not a shooter.


I can't really do that myself, though why you should need me to admit to something for you to agree or form an opinion on it yourself is beyond me.

I'll admit it does a better job at being a shooter than ME1 did, and that it has snappier combat overall. I'll admit that ME2 still is an RPG too, even if only just. An unsatisfactory one personally, but an RPG nonetheless. I've said for a while now that one can either view ME2 as one of the deepest shooters or one of the shallowest RPGs, and how much one enjoys it may depend on which genre they prefer. But its really hard for me to say that ME2 is a better game... though take in mind that that also means that it's not entirely that easy to say that ME1 is the better game either.

The thing is, both games have issues to me, but they're both rather different ones. To me, ME1 is a flawed game, but its filled with good concepts and the flaws mostly come from understandable mistakes and/or poor execution. ME2 to me has more flaws that come from bad concepts and changes that kind of work well to a degree, but don't suit the spirit and style of the game as established with the original. Many of the solutions to ME1's problems get rid of the problem, but do so by eliminating the cause entirely rather than fixing it. Just because a game functions better doesn't mean that the game itself is better.

I guess what I'm saying is that admittedly ME1 is a more flawed game, but that ME2 is a more poorly conceived one in some areas. ME1 is filled with a lot of stuff that didn't work, but while ME2 has more aspects that technically worked it also has what can best be described as "WTF?! moments" too; where the devs decided to go with an idea or concept or change that just seemed to jar so much and I just found awful in almost every sense. I didn't really have those in the original game.

ME1 I also feel is a tighter game, that knows more what it wants to be and is more balanced for it. It has a clear identity and style to it. ME2, for lack of a better term, feels schizophrenic. Most parts of it feel that overall they're well done, but some parts feel like they needed a lot more polish, while others still feel like they were given too much focus and were overpolished, mostly because of the stuff that felt lacking, and due to the fact that the stuff that felt lacking felt more crucial and more deserving of polish and focus than the stuff that got it. It makes ME2 feel unbalanced and off... a little like it's not quite sure what it wants to be and where it should focus itself. A little like Dr. Frankenstein's monster in a way, but with one arm shorter than the other.

Finally, ME1 felt like it was trying to be something more and had some weight and depth to it. It felt epic, and less like a video game and more like a piece of interactive art. ME2 just feels like its trying to be another game, and a rather mainstream one at that. It doesn't quite have the grace and dignity the original had... doesn't seem as intellectual or refined or like its trying to be a cut above the rest of the stuff out there. It feels more like one of the crowd; more generic. I suppose in a certain sense one could say that makes it a better game, but I'm not entirely sure. Better at being a game doesn't mean a better game.

So... yeah. Because of these reasons I can't even really find it in myself to say ME2 is a better game than ME1, because I don't really think it is.

UNWs weren't brilliant, and needed some work, but they weren't horrid either and provided a sense of exploration and desolation that ME2 lacks entirely. I'm all for a mix of N7 style places and UNC style places in ME3.


But that's what ME2 did. Just think of the N7 missions as the copy and paste dungeons of the UCWs and the planet scanning as the tedious Mako part. A combination of N7 missions and ME2's Hammerhead parts though, now that would be awesome.


Aside from the fact I far prefer the Mako to planet scanning, I don't think that's what the N7 missions did well at all. Besides the fact that the UNC ones were better set-up and presented, the N7 ones felt too cramped and linear. They were better to look at and more original, but lacked polish, professionalism and none of them had that same feeling the UNC ones game. I by no means want only UNC style worlds back, but I do want some big open worlds to drive around on that feel empty, vast and desolate like space mostly is. The N7 missions felt too restrictive and controlled, and when every world is special it takes away from things. They also felt like badly done DLC that just happened to be part of the game. What I'd really like is UNC-sized worlds as interesting looking and different as N7 ones, but that's too much to hope for and I know this. I'd be happy with a mix of both, but better integrated than both too (more polish for the N7 ones and less generic bases, overly steep hills and mining for the UNC ones).

#1335
uberdowzen

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You know, the fact that we're all on here arguing about it ignores the reason we're here in the first place. We all love Mass Effect. I think both sides need to stop exaggerating. Now, I personally think that ME2 is better but I don't think that ME1 is a terrible game. In fact quite the contrary, before DAO and ME2 came out it was #4 on my best games of all time list. The people who prefer ME1 aren't perfect either however, they need to admit that even though they thought ME2 wasn't as good as the original that ME2 isn't a bad game and probably about 90% of them really enjoyed it.

#1336
TJSolo

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Massadonious1 wrote...

"Horrible" is inflamatory? Really? One could say Terror_K is also a troll with this brilliant logic, because he/she said "worse"

Regardless, IT IS STILL HIS OPINION AND IT DOESN'T MAKE HIM A TROLL, despite what Kalfear thinks.

And the fact that I could name 5 better RPG's than ME1 was to counter his own opinion that ME1 is the best RPG of all time, not whatever convoluted reasoning you invented to go on this little diataribe of yours.


Then you don't know english very well. Worse is a comparative adjective. Horrible is a definite adjective. The two have very different connotations.  The latter being only negative.

Back on topic ME2 is worse then ME1 in some imporant areas for me; story, exploration, and customization. Also planet scanning is the worst mini-game ever designed and actually implemented in a video game.
ME2 was disappointing because the RPG elements were not polished or rich enough. The only light at the end of the tunnel is Bioware saying ME3 will provide richer RPG elements.

#1337
TJSolo

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SithLordExarKun wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Lets see Kal responded to
someone that came on the ME forums and called ME a horrible RPG.
Wow
that looks like an inflammatory remark that is meant to stir create an
argument, not discussion.


Yes, because calling ME1 a
"horrible" RPG is an inflammatory comment but bashing people that like
ME2(something which you are overly fond of doing) isn't. Hurray for
logic.

Its cute to see you constantly policing the forums telling people "dont bash others based on their opinion" and now you're somehow trying to justify kalfs childish behaviour. Savage hypocrisy at its finest.


I am not policing the forums, I am not pretending to be a forum mod. All I am doing is posting what I think about the game and comments here. My post was to point out how the remark you made looked more like an incite instead of an opinion, thus it was not the case of opions clashing for Kal.
Also never supported the use of labeling, I still have not used that label. No hypocrisy.

#1338
SithLordExarKun

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TJSolo wrote...


I am not policing the forums, I am not pretending to be a forum mod. All I am doing is posting what I think about the game and comments here. My post was to point out how the remark you made looked more like an incite instead of an opinion, thus it was not the case of opions clashing for Kal.
Also never supported the use of labeling, I still have not used that label. No hypocrisy.


Guess what anyway, that wasn't an incite remark to rile anyone up. Kalf, being the pig headed individual that he is decided to look at that as an incise remark and tried to flame me in the process.

#1339
KitsuneRommel

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TJSolo wrote...

The only light at the end of the tunnel is Bioware saying ME3 will provide richer RPG elements.


Did they say role-playing or role-playing game elements? Not that I would mind either way.

#1340
kraidy1117

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Wow, this place can get very hostile.

#1341
TJSolo

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

The only light at the end of the tunnel is Bioware saying ME3 will provide richer RPG elements.


Did they say role-playing or role-playing game elements? Not that I would mind either way.


The mention was RPG elements.

#1342
KitsuneRommel

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kraidy1117 wrote...

Wow, this place can get very hostile.


But afterwards it's all make-up hugs and kisses.

#1343
uberdowzen

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@ Terror_K, my issue with that argument is that you say that ME1 feels like a piece of art, yet it's story isn't exactly literature. It's very good (especially compared to most modern sci-fi movies) but compared to the classics like Foundation and Dune, compared to those it's only good. I think (like most people on this thread) we have to agree to differ.



@ TJSolo, Worst mini-game ever? Not even close. It's not good but it's not crime against nature bad, they just used it too much. Did you ever play Oblivion? Lockpicking and Persuading in that were pretty bad. Or the turret mini game from KOTOR.

#1344
bjdbwea

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

WTH? ME1 had glitchy graphics, ran horribly on PC, had a lot worse animations than ME2, loaded every 50 meters in the Citadel, had horrible inventory system and while it was nice to get new loot constantly 95% of the items were totally worthless.


Yes, the graphics engine in ME 1 wasn't as well optimized as in ME 2. However, when I say that ME 2 is much less polished than ME 1, I'm talking mostly about the actual content. You have cut corners everywhere.

It starts with the story: In ME 1 you have amazing cutscenes telling the story, including meetings between all crew members. In ME 2, the story advances mostly through Shepard and TIM talking. You may think it's a good story (I don't), but I call this unimaginative way of telling a story "cutting corners" in any case.

Then you have several unexplained events, a few missing scenes that you have to "imagine", wrong / strange animations in some cutscenes (never happened in ME 1), the removal of voiced briefings and debriefings, always the same loading screen when you land on a planet (instead of the drop-sequence with the Mako), no crew involvement in the story, no "friendship" path with LIs you don't romance, no different ways to complete side missions, no interaction with NPCs in side missions (beyond shooting them), and I could go on and on. All done to reduce development time, also called "cutting corners".

Modifié par bjdbwea, 08 mai 2010 - 10:19 .


#1345
KitsuneRommel

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bjdbwea wrote...

always the same loading screen when you land on a planet (instead of the drop-sequence with the Mako),


Huh? I don't recall any place where you didn't either dock with the ship or drop off with the shuttle.

no crew involvement in the story,


Mordin was more involved with the story than any ME1 squadmate. Only few people had nothing to do with the Collectors, Cerberus or the main story. Or did I misunderstand you here?

no "friendship" path with LIs you don't romance,


Not sure about the rest but with Tali you could actually break up after the deed and 'just be friends'. I don't see how being a potential LI has anything to do with needing a special "friendship" path either. I would have loved some Bromance moments with Garrus for example.

ME could actually do with fewer squadmates so you'd get more conversations with them. I can imagine the outrage some people will have if their favourite SM is not in ME3 though.

no different ways to complete side missions


If you mean N7 missions, true Though only few UNC missions really had a choice either. That's something I hope they improve in ME3.

#1346
Davescarface

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I only discovered Mass Effect after buying Dragon Age at the end of last year. And after hearing all of the hype about ME2 on these forums I decided that I had to try this game out. Well I couldn't buy ME1 on the PC in the shops because I was told they dont sell it anymore. So.. I went straight into ME2 and decided to order ME1 online.

To begin with ME2 would not work at all on my single core machine. But Bioware did a fantastic job with the first patch and made the game playable for me. I am not normally a fan of shooters and find them incredibly mindless and boring. However ME2 did have some RPG elements to keep me interested so I completed the game. However I never got that urge to start a new game like I did in Dragon Age. And as a RPG Dragon Age pissed all over ME2, so I went back to play that instead.

Now about 1 week later ME1 came through the post, but by this time I was not particularly excited about it anymore. I loaded it up and was at first very dismayed by the inferior graphics. Quite simply I had gone from a far better engine and much better graphics to a pretty outdated game. So I can easily see how most people agree that ME2 was a step forward. But for me personally ME2 lacked any real substance for all its improvements to combat and so on. It wasnt really until I played ME1 that I first began to get into the Mass Effect universe despite its flaws. I never thought I would enjoy this game so much but now I look at ME1 as a better game than Dragon Age even. And I now appreciate ME2 a bit more because ME1really got me into this whole franchise.

So please keep up the good work Bioware, and I hope you can go back to the great story telling you did so well in the first game.  I am very hopeful that ME3 will bring together all the best things from both ME1 and ME2 and will be the best game yet!

Modifié par Davescarface, 08 mai 2010 - 11:46 .


#1347
bjdbwea

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

Mordin was more involved with the story than any ME1 squadmate.


Uh... no, he wasn't? He obviously has an important role, but there's no involvement. Where are the meetings with the crew members from ME 1, where are the opinions, where are the discussions? Mordin is as little integrated into the main story as everyone else, in fact not even his important discovery is properly explained in a cutscene. Does the story still work? Sure, as bad as it is anyway. Would crew involvement make it better? You bet. But it costs time and resources and therefore was cut short. One example of cutting corners, as I said.

As for "friendship" paths: For example, if your Shepard is male or if you don't want a romance with him, that's it. He's always calibrating and has nothing more to say. It's similar with the other companions. In ME 1, you could talk a lot with the companions even if there was no romance. Another cut corner in ME 2. They add up, I would have expected much better from BioWare.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 08 mai 2010 - 11:47 .


#1348
SithLordExarKun

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bjdbwea wrote...

 In ME 1, you could talk a lot with the companions even if there was no romance. Another cut corner in ME 2. They add up, I would have expected much better from BioWare.

And don't forget that by just talking to one of the potential LI's forces you down the romace path which you cannot break up unless you blow him/her up on virmire.  I could talk to alot of the ME2 squadmates fine without getting into a romance or needing to get into one.

That being said, most of them except jacob and grunt weren't as boring as the majority of ME1's party.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 08 mai 2010 - 12:55 .


#1349
bjdbwea

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SithLordExarKun wrote...

And don't forget that by just talking to one of the potential LI's forces you down the romace path which you cannot break up unless you blow him/her up on virmire.  I could talk to alot of the ME2 squadmates fine without getting into a romance or needing to get into one.


Completely untrue. Did you not play ME 1, or are you even making things up now to defend ME 2? There was a point in the game, where the two LIs would confront you, and you had to break up with one of them. In ME 2 in comparison, they don't interact, just tell you to go and decide. One could even call that a cut corner too.

And of course none of the ME 1 companions were boring at all, plus they have a lot more to say.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 08 mai 2010 - 01:14 .


#1350
Icinix

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SithLordExarKun : Most times I agree completely with what you say, but in this case I will have to disagree. I 'accidentally' got into a romance with Jack, Miranda and Tali without any intention what so ever. I was just trying to be friendly and polite. Nearly got me laid. Hell, if life was that easy I would be a very happy man. However, it was still very easy in Mass Effect 1 to get into a relationship too. The romances were awesome, don't get me wrong, and hell the eyes got watery in one in particular, but my shep felt like he wanted and was going to get into bed with every female in the game except the asari councilor.