10273 réponses à ce sujet

[MassEffect762]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Wow, this place can get very hostile.

But afterwards it's all make-up hugs and kisses.

No, you're doing it wrong.

In life(to include the internet) you always extend one hand and maintain the other armed. (24/7 365)

[KitsuneRommel]

And of course none of the ME 1 companions were boring at all, plus
they have a lot more to say.

Large part of Tali and Wrex conversations were about their species though. ME 1 has 6 squad mates while ME 2 has 10 (or 11 if you count Morinth) + 2 with no dialog wheels. When you count the recruitment and loyalty mission conversations I'm not sure ME1 comes ahead. Whether or not specific ME 1 or 2 squadmates were bland or boring is a matter of taste though.

Most times I agree completely with what you say, but in this case I will have to disagree. I 'accidentally' got into a romance with Jack, Miranda and Tali without any intention what so ever.

Yea, being nice to a woman means you want to have sex. Though at least with Miranda it was pretty clear when you were being flirtatious.

[SithLordExarKun]

bjdbwea wrote...


Completely untrue. Did you not play ME 1, or are you even making things up now to defend ME 2? There was a point in the game, where the two LIs would confront you, and you had to break up with one of them. In ME 2 in comparison, they don't interact, just tell you to go and decide. One could even call that a cut corner too.

Do you want me to post a plethora of screenshots to prove i played ME1? Or are you blatantly accusing me of "making **** up" just because i prefer ME2?

I obviously played ME1, if not how did i come up with this rationale? and no, i didn't get the "confrontation" in ME1 because i told liara to shove it. All i did with kaiden was talk to him and then the whole thing gets crammed into a romance path without me even chosing my femshep to get into one.

The last i recall in ME2 was me choosing to instigate the "relationship" with jacob, thane and garrus. It didn't feel "forced" like it did with kaiden, i at the least had the choice to end the relationship without killing any of them.

bjdbwea wrote...

And of course none of the ME 1 companions were boring at all, plus they have a lot more to say.

Thats your opnion and i am cool with that, i just found almost all of them really boring and like a walking codex.

Icinix wrote...

SithLordExarKun : Most times I agree
completely with what you say, but in this case I will have to disagree.
I 'accidentally' got into a romance with Jack, Miranda and Tali without
any intention what so ever. I was just trying to be friendly and
polite. Nearly got me laid. Hell, if life was that easy I would be a
very happy man. However, it was still very easy in Mass Effect 1 to get
into a relationship too. The romances were awesome, don't get me
wrong, and hell the eyes got watery in one in particular, but my shep
felt like he wanted and was going to get into bed with every female in
the game except the asari councilor.

Well i was on a femshep so i think its a different story, i never played a maleshep in ME2 and at least for me, i had to instigate a path with thane, garrus and jacob with a femshep.

[bjdbwea]

You claimed ME 1 forced a romance upon you that couldn't be broken up before killing the LI on Virmire. That is simply not true. Fact: Ýou can tell them clearly that you aren't interested in a romance, then it will stop. Like you did with Liara, you can do the same with Kaidan. I will take your post as a retraction of your previous false statement then.

On to ME 2 then. Are you telling me the game does not force a romance upon you? A female Shepard can't even talk to Jacob ONCE without it sounding like she's forcefully flirting with him. All you can do is not talk to him at all. That's the only blatant occasion though, most companions simply stop talking once you cancel their romance. Garrus for example is always calibrating. How's that good, how's it better than having alternative "friendship" conversations like in ME 1?

Modifié par bjdbwea, 08 mai 2010 - 06:23 .

[TJSolo]

uberdowzen wrote...

@ Terror_K, my issue with that argument is that you say that ME1 feels like a piece of art, yet it's story isn't exactly literature. It's very good (especially compared to most modern sci-fi movies) but compared to the classics like Foundation and Dune, compared to those it's only good. I think (like most people on this thread) we have to agree to differ.

@ TJSolo, Worst mini-game ever? Not even close. It's not good but it's not crime against nature bad, they just used it too much. Did you ever play Oblivion? Lockpicking and Persuading in that were pretty bad. Or the turret mini game from KOTOR.

I have a copy of Oblivion right now. Persuading is a matter of paying attention to where the disks populate and figuring out how to get high reward with minimal loss. Lock Picking is no where near as bad as planet scanning thanks to the skeleton key, auto attempt, and/or knowing how to lock pick. The turret minigame was bleh, still it is not as bad as planet scanning.The only savior to planet scanning is modding.  You pointing out other bad mini-games just to detract from my opinion of planet scanning being the worst design and implmented mini-game for me. 

[KitsuneRommel]

bjdbwea wrote...

On to ME 2 then. Are you telling me the game does not force a romance upon you? A female Shepard can't even talk to Jacob ONCE without it sounding like she's forcefully flirting with him. All you can do is not talk to him at all.

First you say he lied and then you do it yourself. I've done the Collector ship already on my femshep and none of the conversations have gone romantic so far.

Now take Ashley in ME1 for example. After Eden Prime if you say it was not her fault you get a closeup of her face and she seems rather interested on you already.

[bjdbwea]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

First you say he lied and then you do it yourself. I've done the Collector ship already on my femshep and none of the conversations have gone romantic so far.

You must be joking, right? Everyone on these forums knows what I meant, and my comment was very clear. Does your female Shepard not sit on the table, stare at Jacob with dreamy eyes and sigh "I wanted to talk about you" (or something like that) the very first time you click on his "personal" topic? Everyone's been talking about that, and most people find it extremely annoying.

KitsuneRommel wrote...

Now take Ashley in ME1 for example. After Eden Prime if you say it was not her fault you get a closeup of her face and she seems rather interested on you already.

Oh no! A close-up of her face? Really? And she even seems interested! How could BioWare do that!

[KitsuneRommel]

bjdbwea wrote...

You must be joking, right? Everyone on these forums knows what I meant, and my comment was very clear. Does your female Shepard not sit on the table, stare at Jacob with dreamy eyes and sigh "I wanted to talk about you" (or something like that) the very first time you click on his "personal" topic? Everyone's been talking about that, and most people find it extremely annoying.

Male Shepards want to talk about his personal life too ("What do you mean you are not ready to tell me more?"). Though maybe the manly pose female Shepard has in the game made it seem a lot more non-flirtish for me. Or maybe it was the glowing eyes and the facial scarring. Or that I have no interest in becoming anyone's prize.

Oh no! A close-up of her face? Really? And she even seems interested! How could BioWare do that!

“What could I possibly be suggesting? I mean, a young woman gets rescued by a dashing commander who lets her join his crew and then goes off to save the galaxy? How could she possibly develop any kind of interest in him?”

Except in Ashley's case you aren't even saving the galaxy the first time yet.

[bjdbwea]

I still don't get what you're saying about Ashley. Maybe you dislike that there's a romance with her at all, but in no way does the game force any romance upon you. Anyway, enough about that. There are lots of other points where ME 2 disappoints, and that's the actual topic here. Most have probably been discussed though.

[KitsuneRommel]

bjdbwea wrote...

I still don't get what you're saying about Ashley. Maybe you dislike that there's a romance with her at all, but in no way does the game force any romance upon you. Anyway, enough about that. There are lots of other points where ME 2 disappoints, and that's the actual topic here. Most have probably been discussed though.

I don't dislike Ashley. On the contrary. She's a person I'd feel comfortable around with. Just her initial reaction seems rather out of the blue (or I'm reading too much into her eyes).

[kraidy1117]

bjdbwea wrote...

You claimed ME 1 forced a romance upon you that couldn't be broken up before killing the LI on Virmire. That is simply not true. Fact: Ýou can tell them clearly that you aren't interested in a romance, then it will stop. Like you did with Liara, you can do the same with Kaidan. I will take your post as a retraction of your previous false statement then.

On to ME 2 then. Are you telling me the game does not force a romance upon you? A female Shepard can't even talk to Jacob ONCE without it sounding like she's forcefully flirting with him. All you can do is not talk to him at all. That's the only blatant occasion though, most companions simply stop talking once you cancel their romance. Garrus for example is always calibrating. How's that good, how's it better than having alternative "friendship" conversations like in ME 1?

You can only break up with Kaidan and Ash very late in the game, with the ME2 romances (expect for Jack) you can stop it before it gets to deep because you where not forced. Why can't you accept that ME2 did better in the romance department?

[bjdbwea]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Why can't you accept that ME2 did better in the romance department?

Because it just isn't true at all. The ME 1 romances are better on many levels, and I say that NOT only because I like the characters themselves more.

[TJSolo]

kraidy1117 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

You claimed ME 1 forced a romance upon you that couldn't be broken up before killing the LI on Virmire. That is simply not true. Fact: Ýou can tell them clearly that you aren't interested in a romance, then it will stop. Like you did with Liara, you can do the same with Kaidan. I will take your post as a retraction of your previous false statement then.

On to ME 2 then. Are you telling me the game does not force a romance upon you? A female Shepard can't even talk to Jacob ONCE without it sounding like she's forcefully flirting with him. All you can do is not talk to him at all. That's the only blatant occasion though, most companions simply stop talking once you cancel their romance. Garrus for example is always calibrating. How's that good, how's it better than having alternative "friendship" conversations like in ME 1?

You can only break up with Kaidan and Ash very late in the game, with the ME2 romances (expect for Jack) you can stop it before it gets to deep because you where not forced. Why can't you accept that ME2 did better in the romance department?

The romances that can start are based upon the interest the player shows and there are various spots in the conversations with the love interests for the gamer to be very clear if they are making their interests known, not just at the end or when the gamer makes two love interests.
Thanks to there being an ingame indicator in ME2 for the previous ME1 love interest, it can be clear when you have entered a relationship. On the other hand I have had conversations that to me only looked like Shep being curious about finding more info about a crewmate led to a romance and the picture being toppled.
Also I had the intention of starting a romance with Garrus only to get put off and told I need to break off a romance with Thane, one I never started and one that only came about from me being curious for more information Drell.

ME1 makes it clearer when Shepard is showing romantic interest. ME2 confuses general interest with romantic interest at the start of the romances.

[KitsuneRommel]

TJSolo wrote...

ME1 makes it clearer when Shepard is showing romantic interest. ME2 confuses general interest with romantic interest at the start of the romances.

It should be noted that Mass Effect romances can carry over to Mass
Effect 2 without consummation, or even when the player is fairly certain
they have rejected the character in question. Merely speaking with a
potential love interest once is enough to trigger a romance if paragon
options are chosen. In some cases, even extensive renegade dialogue
choices do not prevent the formation of a romance. Thus, if a player
wishes to avoid carrying over a love interest to Mass Effect 2, it is
highly recommended to avoid talking to the potential love interests
completely.

There's no "just friends" in Bioware's dictionary.

[TJSolo]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

ME1 makes it clearer when Shepard is showing romantic interest. ME2 confuses general interest with romantic interest at the start of the romances.

It should be noted that Mass Effect romances can carry over to Mass
Effect 2 without consummation, or even when the player is fairly certain
they have rejected the character in question. Merely speaking with a
potential love interest once is enough to trigger a romance if paragon
options are chosen. In some cases, even extensive renegade dialogue
choices do not prevent the formation of a romance. Thus, if a player
wishes to avoid carrying over a love interest to Mass Effect 2, it is
highly recommended to avoid talking to the potential love interests
completely.

There's no "just friends" in Bioware's dictionary.

Nice a quote from the wiki, which is more of an issue with the character transfer mechanic then the ME1 romances. As playing ME1 it is clear when I am not being romantically involved. There is an invisible metric the character transfer mechanic uses to determine who was the romantic interest.

[Darth Drago]

uberdowzen wrote...

The part with the armature you mentioned, that's the only way I really been able to beat that part.

How would you fix the issue? I don't think removing crouch was a quick fix (with the amount of work that went into ME2's cover system, I'd say it was far from it). I don't think this was a case of "we could spend a month fixing the AI or a day removing crouch", I suspect that it was the only fix.

I definitly agree that the cover needs to be better implemented into the environment though.

-Fixing the armature for example here would have been easy. Once it took a hit from any attack it would move. Use the standard movement program every other armature in the game used. All it would have taken was to have it move to where you started the level at and you wouldn’t be able to use that glitch to kill it, end of problem.

For ME2 fixing the crouching exploit would have been just as similar. Since all your enemies fallow 1 of 3 combat routines, (1. Charger, 2. Hold the line and 3. Sniper) having the game switch to a new one routine like 4. Move to another location would have worked.

Since we’ll probably never know what this ME2 exploit was exactly or if it even happened a lot in the game I cant fully guess on how to fix it but removing the crouch was not the first choice I would have gone with. To me that’s like a doctor amputating your hand to remove a splinter in your finger.

Besides, Its not like the combat AI engine in ME2 was that good to begin with.



Now with the romance issue I see going on here…

ME1 you had plenty of times to talk to Liara, Kaiden and Ashley to get to know them personally in a non romantic way. At a certain moment when the friendship route is now moving towards romance they do give you the option to reply with something on the line of “I don’t feel the same”. Also in ME1 at least you could get into more than one relationship at once.

ME2 most of the “talk about you” dialog leads very quickly into a romance option. I don’t even know if you can talk with a love interest potential with out a romance starting. The one you’ll end up with is likely the one you talk to the most with. Like its been mentioned, you cant even ask Jacob as a female Shepard the “talk about you” choice (the very first time even) without her talking in a overly flirtatious way. As a male Shepard it wasn’t that over the top obvious and if I recall its Tali who really is the one that hits on you with her line that you can agree with or not to continue the romance. You are also completely shut out of trying to have more than one romance at the same time.

If you want to know if your in a relationship with someone in ME2 just talk to Kasumi and she’ll tell you with her “so, you and (love interest name)…”.

[foxstranger]

My miserable (.)of view exclusively, dear Bioware, only 4 you!

Mass effect 1
1) Voice actors status (medium-hard) usual work as always.
2) Designers status (hard) too much failed prototypes!
3) Model creation animation staff status (hard) working on model creation and animation with passion!
4) Space fillers(combine scripts, place objects) status (hard-very hard) too much work + some imagination + correction!
5) Scripters (writing, compile scripts) status (hard-very hard) annoyed by some warning or error line (place here any number).
6) programmers status (very hard – overwhelmed) hardly find a time even for smoking or eating…

Mass effect 2
1) Voice actors status (medium) sometimes nothing to do, sometimes annoyed by someone “wisdom”.
2) Designers status (damn that tractor! Or medium-hard) a lot to do!
3) Model creation animation staff status (medium) models and animations exist but need to simplified, less(BY ALOT) mesh here and there, heavy animations from me1 to better looking but less intensive me2 due to console hardware failure support of acceptable framerate!
4) Space fillers status (easy-medium) some fun time to time, but mostly not much to do at all!
5) Scripters (writing, compile scripts) status (easy - medium at best) some cut here and there.
6) programmers status (are you sure it’s work? It’s more like paradise beyond easy) heavy CUT everywhere, some compile + produce a view of hard working and busy when boss near, else tequila when nobody looking…

Now forums
1) Voice actors status (one nick maximum) sometimes share some emotions here and there.
2) Designers status (one nick) sometimes funny to read some suggestions…
3) Model creation animation staff status (hardly those forums are worthy)
4) Space fillers status (3-5 nicks) defending me2-like with passion!
5) Scripters status (5-8 nicks) evil-strong defense(of me2-like) sometimes misguidance after opinion with aggression elements.
6) programmers status (many nicks) beyond the last with trolling elements and innocent kicking…
For 4,5,6 such topics are horror, and voting of mako beyond nightmares!

Modifié par foxstranger, 08 mai 2010 - 09:10 .

[KitsuneRommel]

Darth Drago wrote...

ME2 most of the “talk about you” dialog leads very quickly into a romance option. I don’t even know if you can talk with a love interest potential with out a romance starting.

Of course you can. You can flirt with Miranda (which is far from just trying to be friends) if you want but it's pretty obvious where you both are going too far. Jack was a bit more complex because of her F-U attitude and with Tali it's pretty clearly spelled out if you are interested in her. Can't say about the femshep romances since I've already done the Collector ship and none of the conversations have gone romantic yet. Jacob might have been though. Maybe I was rude at him in the beginning.

You are also completely shut out of trying to have more than one romance at the same time.

Gee, I wonder why. It's a small ship after all. I was able to romance both Tali and Jack in the same game though.

Both games have the same problem that if you want to be nice to someone it leads to a romance.

[megatron999]

honestly i'm replaying ME1 and Personally in regards to overal gameplay ME2 is miles better in every way.



Lets start with everyones major complaint, Its basically a shooting game. YES!!! your right it is but so was ME1. All you mostly do is go to planets and fight enemies, all thats different is the enemies are more random e.g. Blusuns, Geth and your Renegade biotics/AI.



Then gereral storyline and roleplaying I thought was much more complicated and well thought through, into how your actions in ME1 directly affects ME2.



Also ME2 is more stable than ME1 and has less technical issues depending on what type of system you have. (XBOX doesn't count)

[bjdbwea]

megatron999 wrote...

Then gereral storyline and roleplaying I thought was much more complicated and well thought through, into how your actions in ME1 directly affects ME2.

Yeah, right. Nothing you did in ME 1 matters in ME 2. As for story "more thought through", uh... yeah, right. Whatever you say. <_<

[megatron999]

bjdbwea wrote...

megatron999 wrote...

Then gereral storyline and roleplaying I thought was much more complicated and well thought through, into how your actions in ME1 directly affects ME2.

Yeah, right. Nothing you did in ME 1 matters in ME 2. As for story "more thought through", uh... yeah, right. Whatever you say. <_<

Not really if you upload your character your actions remain the same and they have minor consequences in altering dialog options.

The story was great for ME2! you get revived by cerberaus and you travel the galaxies killing bad guys. It explains why the Reapers want to kill everyone to harvest them to make more Geth. 

Also shows where your squadmates ended up. Other games do not have near a decent story as this!!!

[uberdowzen]

Darth Drago wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

The part with the armature you mentioned, that's the only way I really been able to beat that part.

How would you fix the issue? I don't think removing crouch was a quick fix (with the amount of work that went into ME2's cover system, I'd say it was far from it). I don't think this was a case of "we could spend a month fixing the AI or a day removing crouch", I suspect that it was the only fix.

I definitly agree that the cover needs to be better implemented into the environment though.

-Fixing the armature for example here would have been easy. Once it took a hit from any attack it would move. Use the standard movement program every other armature in the game used. All it would have taken was to have it move to where you started the level at and you wouldn’t be able to use that glitch to kill it, end of problem.

For ME2 fixing the crouching exploit would have been just as similar. Since all your enemies fallow 1 of 3 combat routines, (1. Charger, 2. Hold the line and 3. Sniper) having the game switch to a new one routine like 4. Move to another location would have worked.

Since we’ll probably never know what this ME2 exploit was exactly or if it even happened a lot in the game I cant fully guess on how to fix it but removing the crouch was not the first choice I would have gone with. To me that’s like a doctor amputating your hand to remove a splinter in your finger.

Besides, Its not like the combat AI engine in ME2 was that good to begin with.

So, not knowing exactly what the issue was, you've worked out a better method than Bioware (who spend all of their days trying to fix these issues) that will totally alleviate the problem. Except that the problem is still there, the AI now just has a slightly better chance of combatting it.

Oh, on the note of the doctor analogy, depending on how bad the splinter was a doctor may be forced to amputate the finger in extreme circumstances. I think a better analogy is having your appendix removed, it's just casuing problems and it's completely superfluous so it's better to remove it.

[uberdowzen]

TJSolo wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

@ TJSolo, Worst mini-game ever? Not even close. It's not good but it's not crime against nature bad, they just used it too much. Did you ever play Oblivion? Lockpicking and Persuading in that were pretty bad. Or the turret mini game from KOTOR.

I have a copy of Oblivion right now. Persuading is a matter of paying attention to where the disks populate and figuring out how to get high reward with minimal loss. Lock Picking is no where near as bad as planet scanning thanks to the skeleton key, auto attempt, and/or knowing how to lock pick. The turret minigame was bleh, still it is not as bad as planet scanning.The only savior to planet scanning is modding.  You pointing out other bad mini-games just to detract from my opinion of planet scanning being the worst design and implmented mini-game for me. 

I personally didn't like the presuade mini game (not because it was a bad minigame but because it had little or no relation to actually persuading someone) but your argument about the lock picking is ridiculous. You're saying that a high level quest which gives you an item which makes the lockpicking game meaningless makes it good? Auto Attempt sucked (lost so many lockpicks to that and it also shows that bethesda has little faith in the minigame). And knowing how the mini game works is fine, except it doesn't say ingame or in the manual how to actually do it. I had to go to an elder scrolls wiki to finally find out how that game works. Fallout 3 did minigames a lot better (they were very easy but your skill level determined whether you could even attempt it; they were good because it actually felt like you were picking a lock or hacking a computer).

Yes, you're quite right, I am pointing out other bad mini games because I believe you are wrong. Planet Scanning is an appalling mini game but it's not the worst out of every game ever. Have you ever played Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (yes I know I have played that game)? It has two horrific mini games. One where you have to trace out a spell symbol (which I can't put my finger on why it's so bad, it just is) and there's a flying mini game that is just not fun. They are definitly worse than planet scanning.

EDIT: Oh my god how could I forget the horrific Pazaak and (to further completely kill your point) Quasar?

Modifié par uberdowzen, 08 mai 2010 - 11:07 .

[bjdbwea]

megatron999 wrote...

The story was great for ME2! you get revived by cerberaus and you travel the galaxies killing bad guys. It explains why the Reapers want to kill everyone to harvest them to make more Geth.

I know the story, and I bought and played every single one of BioWare's previous games. ME 2 has their weakest story ever. It lives through the recruitment and loyalty quests, but the main story is between bad and ridiculous.

megatron999 wrote...

Also shows where your squadmates ended up. Other games do not have near a decent story as this!!!

That is true, compared to all the pointless stuff that sells so well, ME 2's story is still very good. Especially in comparison to all the totally linear shooter games. But I have no interest in those games anyway. Compared to ME 1, the story and presentation thereof in ME 2 are a huge step back, as is the whole game. Only my opinion, as always.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 08 mai 2010 - 11:18 .

[Vena_86]

I found out how the Oblivion lock picking works without reading any forum or manual. And even after having it dones probably a thousand times (literally) its still not nearly as boring as planet scanning after 3 times.

And after I played a character with a little charisma focus even the persuation mini game was quite interesting after i got the hang of it.

These mini games are neither boring, nor take lots of time, stay challenging and are seamlessly integrated into the game without feeling like something tacked on and unrelated.

BioWare does many things better but this is something where they could learn a things or two from Bethesda.