10273 réponses à ce sujet

[Terror_K]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

With a competent voice actor and good dialogue, there is no "trade off".

Of course there is. You could have 100's of hours of conversation with text while that's not feasible with voice actors.

Indeed. For instance, Obsidian recently said in an interview that there would have likely been a female version of their protagonist in Alpha Protocol if they could have afforded to pay a female voice-actor to voice all the lines, as well as afford to have the other voice actors do the alternate dialogue that resulted from it. If the protagonist wasn't voiced, this wouldn't be an issue for them.

[bjdbwea]

Vicious wrote...

But Bioware fans are so incredibly spoiled everything is a step backwards for them, nevermind the fact that there is really no alternative when it comes to real, thought-provoking RPG fun. And yes, I discout JRPGs because they have been utterly juvenile for the last several years.

Yes, spoiled. By BioWare's own games, which were always amazing and always very polished. To see them cutting so many corners now should worry everyone, even those who still like the game. If they get away with it now (which they do, the sales numbers are obviously stellar), they might just cut even more corners next time. What if features begin to disappear that YOU like?

I can understand that shooter fans are amazed by ME 2. Shooters are usually very short, completely linear and the story is "there", nothing more. Of course ME 2 beats stuff like that. But RPG players know and expect better from BioWare, and there's no reason not to.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 10 mai 2010 - 10:25 .

[Rejoy Skinler]

Pretty sure this thread is for people who are disappointed in ME2. Maybe if there were less arguments between pros and antis it would be more constructive/interesting to read and less about nitpicks.

[SkullandBonesmember]

Terror_K wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

With a competent voice actor and good dialogue, there is no "trade off".

Of course there is. You could have 100's of hours of conversation with text while that's not feasible with voice actors.

Indeed. For instance, Obsidian recently said in an interview that there would have likely been a female version of their protagonist in Alpha Protocol if they could have afforded to pay a female voice-actor to voice all the lines, as well as afford to have the other voice actors do the alternate dialogue that resulted from it. If the protagonist wasn't voiced, this wouldn't be an issue for them.

Sure. We can't consider the possibility they're cheap.

[Dracotamer]

I was really only disappointed with a few aspects such as no armor or weapons stores or variety, same for companions.

[KitsuneRommel]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Sure. We can't consider the possibility they're cheap.

I'm seriously having trouble understanding exactly what kind of games you like. On one hand you think ME2 has too much 'SPLOSHIONS! and on the other hand you think voice acting (which generally restricts games a lot and is just 'ear candy') is essential.

I think audio books might be what you need (ok, now I'm kidding).

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...

Well, I did purposefully write "IMO" in there (it wasn't originally when I first wrote the sentence... just FYI) to purposefully indicate that it was my opinion and not a fact, because I fully realise this.

HIGH FIVA!!

Terror_K wrote...
And no offense back, but don't you find this statement a little ironic and hypocritical? I mean... it works both ways, you realise that right? And the fact is, most of the people who are expressing their disapproval are doing so because they're hoping that the comments will lead to a better ME3 for it. What are those that just praise ME2 at almost every turn actually doing to benefit the third part? Are you trying to keep ME3 as much the same as ME2 as possible by countering everything the naysayers say and stop us from perhaps... y'know... offering some constructive criticism and suggesting where things went wrong and offering solutions or preferences? Its criticism that invites change, not blind praise. Shame it seemed that initial criticism led to ME2 being dumbed down, but it seems to me that BioWare listened too much to the wrong people and missed the point in a few areas.

Yeah, i do realize this is a double edged sword, and i do realize that its idiotic to blind praise ME2 as well as criticism does promote better growth.

What i disapprove off is certain people(not you) relentlessly bashing those that enjoy ME2 calling them idiots just because they prefer ME2's mechanics.

Constructive criticism would enhance and combine the best of ME1 and ME2 for the final game, not crude relentless bashing like "those who like ME2 are idiats wawa wi wa!!! or ME2 = sux sux sux or fcuk ME2 and anyone who likes it" which has been a really common trend going on in these forums.

You at the least sound constructive in wanting ME3 to have the best of both games, many many others on the other hand resort to plain trolling insulting every asect of the game and bashing those that loved it.


I have already listed down the stuff i did not like in ME2(one such as removing the inventory system when they should redesign it) and i don't "blindly" praise ME2, while i liked the N7 missions variety, i hated the way they were integrated and tied to the story. That's just one of the several flaws i don't like in ME2.

That being said we are somewhat opposites, you prefer ME1 and i prefer ME2 and both of us want the best for ME3,.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 10 mai 2010 - 12:54 .

[The_11thDoctor]

I loved ME2 and was disappointed with it. Loved the new interactions but was dissapointed with the following

Armor: Not enough variety and styles of armor+ lack of Decals
Ammo: No Ammo Types
Interactions: Could not talk to ALL of crew again.../ Could not form reationships with all crew/ squad mates, coversations removed while exploring/ in battle
No REACTION TO BRINGING GETH WITH YOU ANYWHERE!!!!
No real realationships with L.I. throughout game! You should start a path and see differences in interactions with them, Even D.A.O. had better interactions... You could at least randomly kiss or get laid when you wanted and make smart remarks to each other.
Lack of Female versions of species in most alien races.
Paragon and Renegade decisions make no sense sometimes and are confusing.
Still Super Stupid A.I. that glitch out all the time! (Need CO-OP FOR MISSIONS!!!! pull a Left 4 Dead and let them join and drop at will and have AI retake over when gone, but for the love of Pete, ADD CO-OP ME3!!!!!!) It's not logical to have stupid AI that wanders off, dissapears, gets stuck, does nothing, dies randomly, jumps in the way of shots, has to have it's hand held the entire fight etc!!!! Grow up and add CO-OP!!! So much frustration I get from playing this game is from the stupid AI. The programmer should be shot and Bioware should have Valve tutor them in how to make co-op!
Tali's love scene made me mental and want to smash my 360.... The others are just as bad and not even close to the par of ME1 and show nothing. It can be artistic and not a complete porno if done right. It becomes obvious Bio cant handle physics... No hair, skin, breast, cloth or muscle physics are in the game making that one layer of realism very obviously absent to the user. You have areas in the ship that do nothing and you can do nothing in. I would have loved to sit at the table and eat with the crew while chatting it up, relaxed in my room or the rooms of crew members etc.
Bathrooms are there but no one uses them and there are no toilet seats, privacy or differences in the male and female restrooms.
EDI I hope gets a body next ME. Joker seems to have gotten closer to her by the end of the game.
Need a real Level up system and side bosses you can/ cant take out till a certain level
Scanning can suck a quad.... Remove it from the game... Make it so enemies drop materials, cash and experience. Cut scanning out completely. It's only a very cheap way to tack hours onto gameplay. You dont do it you cant make stuff and die in and at the end of the game. Make more content and stop using lame tactics to expand gametime. ME will never be perfect with scanning in the game. You never seem to get it right.(Bioware)
The new hacking styles arent bad though. 1000% better than ME1 and they never annoy me. Love the circuit board one the most though. More leisure suits to wear and make it wearable outside the ship once you beat the game once. As a "I dont even need my armor to handle this mission" type of perk.

Love the game, but their are some huge flaws that ruin the experience.
The council moved into someone's abandoned dog house in ME2... What happened?

I hope ME3 will be better. Bioware still isnt up to the level of Japanese RPGs in a lot of ways, though there conversation system is the best out there hands down. If the rest of the game was at the level of the conversation system and story, Bioware wouldnt need to make another game after the finish ME. I'd say the perfect version of ME 3 would have to have Bioware, Kojima and Valve's teams together. Bioware for story, Kojima for attention to detail in every part in the game down to ice melting in a glass on the counter, AI, etc and Valve for Co-OP and how to implement it with their drop in, drop out system which would make fights fun and kill 80% of the frustration of dealing with your squad mates. I wont even tdive into all the game glitches... There are places that never work right! I had the Get Grunt mission work right 3 or 4x out of 20 something tries. I couldnt figure out why the krogan was standing there doing nothing and no enemeies on the stage with battle music playing. the 15th try was a charm! The samara fight's sound will always go out with a 5% chance of the sound working. The glitches are minor to game breakers and abundant. The testers were asleep this game.

I liked but hated a lot in this game.

Hoping for better ME in part 3. Not just bashing the game. One of the best games this year, just there is some major room to improve on...

Modifié par aang001, 10 mai 2010 - 02:38 .

[KitsuneRommel]

aang001 wrote...

No REACTION TO BRINGING GETH WITH YOU ANYWHERE!!!!

Yes there was. It just seems like common people (even the Citadel security, whether that makes sense or not) doesn't know what they look like. Not suprisingly the Quarians do know and WILL comment strongly if try to go there with Legion.

Lack of Female versions of species in most alien races.

It was the same with ME1 though. Galactic balancing because of the Asari? Only Bioware knows.


I'm not touching rest of the comments even with a 10' pole. Ok, who am I kidding. More hot steamy sex in ME3.

[megatron999]

Thats true actually, I really loved it when you bought the Geth to the flotilla all the quarrian go ape-S!%T.



I wonder what do female turians look like or Krogan?



Things I disliked about the game were it was difficult to get running but not as difficult as ME1. I thought they could have had more dialogue and made it so more choices you made had consequences in ME2. There were a few for example Thorian assari, The Fan and the officer from illium (not sure of name)

[AlanC9]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

With a competent voice actor and good dialogue, there is no "trade off".

Of course there is. You could have 100's of hours of conversation with text while that's not feasible with voice actors.

Indeed. For instance, Obsidian recently said in an interview that there would have likely been a female version of their protagonist in Alpha Protocol if they could have afforded to pay a female voice-actor to voice all the lines, as well as afford to have the other voice actors do the alternate dialogue that resulted from it. If the protagonist wasn't voiced, this wouldn't be an issue for them.

Sure. We can't consider the possibility they're cheap.

There have been game companies that didn't consider costs. They've all failed.

Seriously, dude, you're talking like this stuff is free. You can't really think that.

[exxxed]

I haven't read from page 62 because i couldn't help not responding to all that bullschite about character driven story of Mass Effect 2... AHAHAHAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA *wipes a tear*, the best example of character driven story is that of Firefly's , THAT'S HOW YOU MAKE A CHARACTER DRIVEN STORY, ME2 is a cheap gimmick to excuse all the shooting that happens... ME was never designed to have a character driven story... eh but who am i kidding, it seems like BioWare doesn't want to have anything to do with the first one, so the heck with it, go ruin everything ME stood for, unique and diverse Action-RPG...

[SkullandBonesmember]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

I'm seriously having trouble understanding exactly what kind of games you like. On one hand you think ME2 has too much 'SPLOSHIONS! and on the other hand you think voice acting (which generally restricts games a lot and is just 'ear candy') is essential.

I think audio books might be what you need (ok, now I'm kidding).

http://social.biowar...index/2298623/1

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Devil May Cry

Mass Effect

Final Fantasy X

Heavy Rain

Indigo Prophecy

Onimusha 3

Persona

To an EXTENT, ME2.

Need I continue? All games that go deep into an enjoyable narrative just as good as books and films. Think how much better they could have been simply with interactive dialogue.

But hardly any game allows you to choose what your character says. The potential is there though, and it's frustrating waiting for developers to do a more fleshed out version of Heavy Rain.

And while I'm quoting posts from that thread-

benjdot wrote...

Yeah, let's not go back to ME1 where the dialogue goes on forever and seems stilted.
ME2 nailed it, imo

THIS is exactly why I post here. Bioware needs to know that there are plenty of people that enjoyed the dialogue in ME1 and weren't going crazy for 'SPLOSHUNS unlike benjot.

aang001 wrote...

No REACTION TO BRINGING GETH WITH YOU ANYWHERE!!!!

Oh come on now! You're just nitpicking. Do you have any inkling how much resources Bioware would have had to put forth into ME2 just so there's some continuity/immersion? Your expectations are just too high sir.

[uberdowzen]

Terror_K wrote...

I'm not sure that ME2 doesn't do this too, I just think it does a better job of making it not as noticeable by changing camera angles at the appropriate times. It does this because what is said next depends on player choice and so there's generally a default, neutral expression at the start and end of each line to make it so their faces flow through without suddenly being in the wrong places. I don't think this is really a lack of polish so much as just finding a better way of doing it.

So, how come ME2 hiding it better is not considered that part of the game being more polished?

Terror_K wrote...

You seem to be talking about the worlds themselves in a physical sense. I was talking more about the missions associated with them actually. Simple put: the N7 Missions feel far less polished than the UNC Missions do.

I'll that some of the moral choices that come when you've finally reached your destination and fought through the same building with the crates in slightly different positions than last time are better done then the N7 missions. However the 5 minutes of dull driving to get to them kind of gets in the way of this. Also for every UNC mission with a choice, there's two where you just go and kill some enemies.

Terror_K wrote...

I fail to see what these factors have to do with polish. Especially when I've explained that they all pretty much relate to faults of the game engine at the time and are not related to how polished something was or wasn't. The last factor alone is just an example of them improving the graphics, not a lack of polish in the first game (they redid pretty much all the character models).

I'm failing to see what your definition of polish is. How is fixing the grahpical issues in ME1 that broke immersion not considered polish?

Terror_K wrote...

What I meant is that changing your keys from something else other than default doesn't reflect in the game's instructions, which is awful and amateur programming. Admittedly that's more of a porting issue though, since its a factor the 360 version doesn't have.

Yes, that is a lack of polish (although I've never tried changing the controls in ME1 to test it) although only a few games actually do that anyway.

Terror_K wrote...

My beef with the pointless stuff is that it is overly polished when other factors that should have had more of a focus and could have done with some more work are not. As I've said before, ME2 has a very schizophrenic nature to it, where it seems like its never quite sure what it wants to be and where the focus should lie. Some factors are neglected that shouldn't be, while others that didn't really need much attention seem to get more care than a vintage Jaguar in an obsessive compulsive turtle waxer's garage. Which is why overall I feel the game itself isn't as focused, finished or above all polished as it should be. Its just not as well rounded and balanced as ME1 was, nor any of BioWare's other games for that matter, and as such I fail to see why people say that it's a more polished product. Certain factors are certainly, but overall... no.

What is your definition of polish? Polish just means that they've ironed out the little faults that make the game feel rough. Like in ME1, the switch from conversations to cinematics was quite noticable (in an ideal system you wouldn't be able to tell when one ends and the other starts) but they reduced it to the point that you don't really notice it in ME2. Another example is audio system. I often couldn't hear the companion dialogue in elevators or when wandering around locations, but when characters do make a comment in ME2 I can now always hear it. That's polish, not how fleshed out a feature is.

[uberdowzen]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

Ok so technology was never the issue. There are actually several reasons they didn't voice the warden in DAO. The first is that in Mass Effect, despite the fact that you can customise him/her, Sheperd is to a certain extent a predesigned character with his/her own back story unlike DAO, where you can basically make up anything you want. Secondly, the amount of dialogue Sheperd has is already limited (you might notice that often when you're presented with a "choice" Sheperd will say exactly the same thing no matter what you choose) and DAO has a lot more played dialogue than ME. Thirdly, to be able to have fully customizable characters who are voiced would require you to have about 20 voice actors, as players would not be content with all their characters sounding the same. And most importantly, you stop noticing after about 10 minutes of playing (like watching a foreign language film you forget about the subtitles after very little time). It's not worth the extra cost and because of the way DAO works, the VA would just be repeating what the player just clicked.

As I understand it, the player can choose to play an elf, human, or mage. I think 2 VAs would be able to handle all 3 roles. And it's way better to actually have a voiced protagonist as opposed to not having one, regardless if the VA does or does not "repeat what the player just clicked".

No, that wouldn't work. For starters, you can choose the voice of your character (for when you select them etc) in DAO and you'd almost have to have those same VAs do all the PC dialogue in the game. You can't just have a male and female VA like in ME. For example, if I have a Male Human Mage and a Male Human Warrior, I'd expect the warrior to sound more brutish, maybe have a deeper voice whereas I'd expect the mage to sound maybe a bit weedier, or maybe have a more sophicticated british accent. And then again, I wouldn't expect a dwarf to sound the same as human.

[bjdbwea]

How can someone who apparently enjoyed all BioWare games since BG 1 not see the many faults, cut corners, lack of polish, and steps back that ME 2 has? I played every single BioWare game too, and ME 1 is my favourite game ever (together with BG 2). I was astonished and appalled by how bad ME 2 turned out in comparison to its fantastic predecessor.

JE, an otherwise amazing game, was overly dumbed down, but then they got back on track with ME 1. I thought they had now found a proper compromise between action and shooting, story and RPG. Only to dumb down and mainstream ME 2 more than ever. <_<

[tonnactus]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

I stopped taking you seriously after reading your very first sentence.

Of course you did. Because anybody that prefers ME1's combat over its sequel will definitely lose their credibility by default, IF they had any to begin with.

They all just talk how good the combat in Mass Effect 2 is.But when you ask them why,you didnt get any answers.
The cover system isnt better. Dozen times sheaprdt died against the pretorian because when you sprint you automatically get suck in cover when you touch a wall/box. Accidently jump over cover(X and a are not far away from eachother)

Most biotics sucks on higher difficulties because of the "protection system"(completly bull**** that goes against every lore) and are not really satisfieing.I only used shockwave at the collector mission,rarely use other biotics then singularity and warp otherwise.They increase the number of enemies and decrease the radious of biotics and tech attacks.

Charge is bugged as hell.

Ah yes,better combat.

[SkullandBonesmember]

uberdowzen wrote...

No, that wouldn't work. For starters, you can choose the voice of your character (for when you select them etc) in DAO and you'd almost have to have those same VAs do all the PC dialogue in the game. You can't just have a male and female VA like in ME. For example, if I have a Male Human Mage and a Male Human Warrior, I'd expect the warrior to sound more brutish, maybe have a deeper voice whereas I'd expect the mage to sound maybe a bit weedier, or maybe have a more sophicticated british accent. And then again, I wouldn't expect a dwarf to sound the same as human.

<_<

The answer is quite simple then, just have 2 VAs like what I suggested. One male and the other female as in Mass Effect.

Modifié par SkullandBonesmember, 10 mai 2010 - 11:12 .

[tonnactus]

uberdowzen wrote...

The animations flow together a lot more smoothly in ME2 (in ME1 in conversations NPCs often jerk back to their default postion when they start a new line.

Was Shiala alive in your playthrough?She showed my her back when talking with me.
Aria put her feet at the couch before she stands up and move.

[bjdbwea]

tonnactus wrote...

Was Shiala alive in your playthrough?She showed my her back when talking with me.
Aria put her feet at the couch before she stands up and move.

Yeah, those are clear bugs, and there are a few more occasions. Don't expect a patch for it though. <_<

[KitsuneRommel]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

The answer is quite simple then, just have 2 VAs like what I suggested. One male and the other female as in Mass Effect.

And have dwarf, elf and  human characters sound the same? There was this buzzword that people like to use. Immersion something.

From your game list it seems that you are really fond of the 'interactive movie' game type. From your list I've only played FF 10 (though Shenmue on Dreamcast sounds pretty similar to what you'd like) and I have a sort of love/hate relationship with the FF games. Sure the stories and cinematics are nice but they are mostly one big railroad and the only roleplaying is selecting which order you learn skills. I bought FF XIII a month ago but I've only played if 5-6 hours so far.

Anyway, I don't think you would like previous Bioware titles at all. They are as far from interactive movies as they can possibly be.

[KitsuneRommel]

bjdbwea wrote...

How can someone who apparently enjoyed all BioWare games since BG 1 not see the many faults, cut corners, lack of polish, and steps back that ME 2 has? I played every single BioWare game too, and ME 1 is my favourite game ever (together with BG 2). I was astonished and appalled by how bad ME 2 turned out in comparison to its fantastic predecessor.

How can you even compare BG 2 to ME 1? One of them is a PnP based isometric RPG with dice rolls and the other is a shooter. Because they both have companions, love interest and lots of dialogue? Give me a break.

[uberdowzen]

tonnactus wrote...

They all just talk how good the combat in Mass Effect 2 is.But when you ask them why,you didnt get any answers.

OK, this why the combat in ME2 is so much better than in ME1:

• You know longer get sucked towards cover as you have to press the action button
• You can now vault over cover, so no more running around a metre tall rock
• The universal cooldown means that you can no longer just spam power buttons and have to rely on your team a bit more.
• The weapons now feel unique and aren't OP (like the shotgun) and they all have the special use (pistols for taking out armor, sub machine gun for taking out shields)
• Can use powers more often, meaning biotics no longer suck.
• Every class has a unique power which means they all play a differently
• Headshots mean you don't just point and shoot vaguely at the enemy anymore.
• Possible to use a sniper rifle at low levels now.
• Removal of weapon talents means that classes which can use a certain weapon actually use it now.
• Removal of medigel (in it's form in ME1) means that you no longer get caught without it on long missions.
• Thermal clips make you think more about each shot (within the scope of the current battle) and means there's less downtime when you can't do anything because your weapon is overheating.
• Throw can now be used to throw enemies off cliffs much better as you can make the throw come from the side rather than just the front
• Squad controls are simple and allow you to do everything you could do in ME1 with more control.
• Enemies now react to being shot, making them more satisfying to fight.

Better. Now why is ME1 combat so good?

[uberdowzen]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

No, that wouldn't work. For starters, you can choose the voice of your character (for when you select them etc) in DAO and you'd almost have to have those same VAs do all the PC dialogue in the game. You can't just have a male and female VA like in ME. For example, if I have a Male Human Mage and a Male Human Warrior, I'd expect the warrior to sound more brutish, maybe have a deeper voice whereas I'd expect the mage to sound maybe a bit weedier, or maybe have a more sophicticated british accent. And then again, I wouldn't expect a dwarf to sound the same as human.

<_<

The answer is quite simple then, just have 2 VAs like what I suggested. One male and the other female as in Mass Effect.

Um, did you actually read my post? Are you saying that the 2 VAs should do a variety of different voices or something?