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Disappointment With Mass Effect 2? An Open Discussion.


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#1776
KitsuneRommel

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See, it's a challenge. Don't you like to get a little reward when you finally managed to do it? The satisfaction to gain the next level a bit earlier, so that the next fight will be a bit easier?


It was not just a challenge. It was pretty much impossible considering that at that point of the game my weapons and armor were still so weak that even with constant sniper fire it would have taken ages to whiddle that shield down.


Of course you could go further and give XP based on how strong the player's weapon is. I wouldn't object to it, but it would be much more complicated, because in different situations different weapons are better suited.

I see it as no different than killing enemies with or without the mako.



Ok, but that's not a great example of the "depth" of the weapon system. I mean saying "I don't like firing in burst mode, so I'll use a weapon with less damage and accuracy" isn't anymore of a valid example of weapon depth than saying "I don't like the color scheme of the Spectre weapons so I'll use weapons with less accuracy and damage' is.

So what would be a good example of depth then if changes in firing mode, ammo capacity and damage isn't? I didn't like the BOOM HEADSHOT style of Widow with my Infiltrator and instead stuck with the semi-automatic Viper which was nice for crowd control with the freezing ammo.



Except for all the claims they made about ME2 which were downright false and overplayed for the most part.


Companies hype and plans change. Shall we watch some old ME1 videos and start yelling how ME1 is nothing like that?

Modifié par KitsuneRommel, 12 mai 2010 - 07:23 .


#1777
TJSolo

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KitsuneRommel wrote...
Companies hype and plans change. Shall we watch some old ME1 videos and start yelling how ME1 is nothing like that?


I wouldn't recommend you do that. It would just lead people to further question the redirection ME2 took because many of the old ME dev videos are full of Casey Hudson boostfully commenting on how ME is not meant to be a normal shooter that customization of weapons/gear/character are important features.

#1778
The_11thDoctor

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One Major issue I forgot to state which Im sure was brought up somewhere, The BIOTICS!!!! FIX THEM! They were useless!!!!! Im sorry, but a biotic mainly uses guns?! A Biotic shouldnt have to use a gun period. Biotics should go thru barriers and shields anad destroy things, not have to wait untill 2 different shield types are gone before they are useful or will even use there power to help you. This added to the AI squadmates being useless. Having a Biotic should help not hinder you. This goes again all things right in the ME world. If you read the books, everyone fears a biotic. In the game, they might as well be techs without drones or hacking ability... I was so happy hearing about the adept class and got very disappointed playing one and watching the AI go at it.

Modifié par aang001, 12 mai 2010 - 07:55 .


#1779
KitsuneRommel

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TJSolo wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...
Companies hype and plans change. Shall we watch some old ME1 videos and start yelling how ME1 is nothing like that?


I wouldn't recommend you do that. It would just lead people to further question the redirection ME2 took because many of the old ME dev videos are full of Casey Hudson boostfully commenting on how ME is not meant to be a normal shooter that customization of weapons/gear/character are important features.


You mean ME2 is a normal shooter and it doesn't have gear and character customization?

I'm still waiting for them to implement taking control of your squad mates.

#1780
KitsuneRommel

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aang001 wrote...

One Major issue I forgot to state which Im sure was brought up somewhere, The BIOTICS!!!! FIX THEM! They were useless!!!!!


My Adept didn't feel useless. If anything Singularity is OP.

Try playing an adept with Garrus and Miranda and you'll mow through enemies easily. 2 Overloads for shields and 2 Warps for armor + Garrus with AP ammo.


Edit: 
Try watching these videos http://social.biowar...index/1319268/1
(Biotic Power (Adept Suicide Run Insanity No
Guns Video Gameplay)
)

Modifié par KitsuneRommel, 12 mai 2010 - 08:16 .


#1781
TJSolo

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...
Companies hype and plans change. Shall we watch some old ME1 videos and start yelling how ME1 is nothing like that?


I wouldn't recommend you do that. It would just lead people to further question the redirection ME2 took because many of the old ME dev videos are full of Casey Hudson boostfully commenting on how ME is not meant to be a normal shooter that customization of weapons/gear/character are important features.


You mean ME2 is a normal shooter and it doesn't have gear and character customization?

I'm still waiting for them to implement taking control of your squad mates.


No I meant exactly what I posted.

#1782
dr dANGER boy

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I loved playing as a Sentinel cause then you get 3 Overloads and 2 warps plus 1, always good for crowd control once you get the biotic cooldowns 'cause it fires so bloody fast. I chewed through guys like there was no tomorrow.

#1783
KitsuneRommel

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TJSolo wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...
Companies hype and plans change. Shall we watch some old ME1 videos and start yelling how ME1 is nothing like that?


I wouldn't recommend you do that. It would just lead people to further question the redirection ME2 took because many of the old ME dev videos are full of Casey Hudson boostfully commenting on how ME is not meant to be a normal shooter that customization of weapons/gear/character are important features.


You mean ME2 is a normal shooter and it doesn't have gear and character customization?

I'm still waiting for them to implement taking control of your squad mates.


No I meant exactly what I posted.


Character customization is pretty damn important part of ME2 so they can rage all they want.

#1784
uberdowzen

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Terror_K wrote...

But many have said they miss the elevators and that the loading screens seem like a step backwards and are boring. And they are. The problem with the elevators was the loading times, not the elevators themselves (they weren't that bad in the PC version for the most part) and I'd much rather wait a tad longer and get some conversations between squadmates or hear a news report than watch a boring holographic representation of things that's the same every friggin time. If the elevators had simply been "enter, witness content while loading, exit" then they'd be fine. The problem was that it was "enter, witness content, wait a minute, then exit." Since they've clearly been able to make the game load faster now, I see no reason that elevators can't come back instead of tedious loading screens that add nothing.


Weren't that bad? I've gone off, made a sandwich (literally), come back and it's only just finishing.Also, the elevators were just as bad on PC as they were on Xbox. That was the problem, the fact that load times on PC take about 7 seconds whereas they take a minute or so on Xbox. Also, I assuming you're playing on PC (please correct me if I'm wrong) so how would you know if they fixed the load times on Xbox (the load times with loading screens are the same in ME1 and ME2 on PC). I always assumed it was because the game had to read off the disc and the only way of fixing that was a hard drive install (which I assume you can still do with ME2 on Xbox). Anyway, I'm pretty sure most people hated the elevators.

Funny, I don't recall them saying that The Hammerhead was going to be DLC until late 2009. I remember this because when it was announced a whole bunch of people went "Wait, what?! So... the Mako replacement isn't even crucial to the game any more?"

The Hammerhead is a pretty weak replacement, IMO too.

Finally, I don't agree with the reasons for removing the inventory. It's pretty clear that they took the easy answer and just gutted it rather than come up with a system that works. I admit that I like the "we only need one of each item" approach, but the rest is horribly shallow and linear. Particularly for an RPG.


I think it was more like mid 09. I also recall a lot of people saying "Well that's OK I guess, if the rest of the game is better for it." Also, the hammerhead is a more fun vehicle than the Mako, it's more the "interesting" balance of missions in the DLC.

You say they took the easy path with the inventory, but if you go with the idea that it's the future we can just replicate this anyway, how would you have done it? I can't think of any other method of doing an inventory in that way that'd work. And the idea that the weapon progression is linear is just wrong. Each new weapon (except for the one weapon you can choose late game) is a different weapon, not a better one. For example, the 2 basic assualt rifles each have their own pros and cons.

First point: Then cater to the masses with a new IP, rather than drag an existing one into the mud.

Second point: If ME wasn't meant to be a niche game for sci-fi nerds, how come it turned out that way? I mean, for starters sci-fi is already a nerd-oriented genre of entertainment. Secondly, RPGs are a nerd-oriented thing too. On top of that it had so many callbacks, homages and similarities to classic sci-fi and feels like something straight out of the mid 80's; it doesn't feel like a modern, hammy mainstream product at all. Whether it was intended or not (and I'm pretty sure it was) Mass Effect was a game for sci-fi nerds above all else.


I disagree with the idea that ME has been dragged into the mud.

Shows like BSG and Flashforward are proving that sci-fi can appeal to anyone, if there are interesting characters and they don't do anything tacky. I also don't think seeking your inspiration from 80's sci fi movies (including Bladerunner which is not considered to be solely for nerds). And since when did ME1 not appeal to mainstream audiences anyway? I was under the impression that it was one of the most popular games on Xbox. Also, aren't most of the people with consoles and/or PCs nerds anyway?

So... you don't think ME1 suits Mass Effect?


This sounds weird but, no, not really.

Except for all the claims they made about ME2 which were downright false and overplayed for the most part.


If you can find a quote from Bioware (a quote, not predictions or analysis of what a developer has said) that is an outright lie, then I might consider believing this point of view. Up until then, no.

There's more to CoD than that. If that's all you did, you'd die pretty damn quickly.


Not really. I've played CoD4 twice and there isn't much more to it. Honestly, you can pretty much just duck behind cover and shoot through it.

Most people on the forums wanted stuff fixed, not scrapped. By the "wrong people" I mean shooter fans who bought ME1 expecting another Gears of War and then came onto the forums complaining about the combat in ME1, or official reviewers who made similar complaints or people who ****ed about anything that took a long time, took effort to do or didn't give them instant satisfaction which is the case with a lot of today's "gamers" and the gaming culture in general. I don't see a lot of what was being asked for after ME1 came out being properly addressed in ME2; it just seems to be BioWare either missed the point of the complaints and paid attention to the common terms that came up and not the issues at heart and/or they "solved" most of the issues by scrapping them entirely... which as I've said hundreds of times before is not a real solution at all.

I think in not focussing on making a great RPG or a great shooter and instead simply making a great game they've failed to make any of these things, and that's why ME2 feels so schizophrenic and lacking in focus or identity. They claim a "no sacred cows" approach, but I wonder how that will apply to ME3 when it comes to the shooter elements.


I don't think the people who bought ME1 expecting another Gears of War are the kind of people who go out of their way to register for a forum and complain about how a game isn't like another game. If they were expecting another Gears of War clone, I suspect that just stop playing ME1 and go and play one of the many other gears of war clones. I mean, I loved ME1, but I still the think the combat was flawed. And like I said before, there's a difference between instant satisfaction, and putting in a huge amount of effort for little to no payoff, like with ME1's inventory.

#1785
bjdbwea

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iakus wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

I don't have time to reply to this right now (I'll come back and reply later) but for now, some food for thought.


This line made me laugh even as it killed a piece of my soul:

"Whether you saved or sacrificed the council, who you romanced, and whether you managed to keep Wrex alive are all landmark moments which define the experience of ME2."


What a joke. But the sad, rather than the funny one. :pinched:

#1786
uberdowzen

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bjdbwea wrote...

iakus wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

I don't have time to reply to this right now (I'll come back and reply later) but for now, some food for thought.


This line made me laugh even as it killed a piece of my soul:

"Whether you saved or sacrificed the council, who you romanced, and whether you managed to keep Wrex alive are all landmark moments which define the experience of ME2."


What a joke. But the sad, rather than the funny one. :pinched:


Yeah, although what I find the funniest, it the fact that all the people who don't like ME2 went into that article not wanting to listen to Bioware logically explain the design choice and then picked out of a three page long article the one quote (which isn't actually a Bioware quote, that's something the writer added) that is a little bit off. Oh no, wait, that's not hillarious, that's tragic.

#1787
Massadonious1

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“Mass Effect 2 was really a triumph of game development,”



Cherry picking is fun.

#1788
bjdbwea

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uberdowzen wrote...

Yeah, although what I find the funniest, it the fact that all the people who don't like ME2 went into that article not wanting to listen to Bioware logically explain the design choice and then picked out of a three page long article the one quote (which isn't actually a Bioware quote, that's something the writer added) that is a little bit off. Oh no, wait, that's not hillarious, that's tragic.


We've had enough occasions of BioWare people saying equally ridiculous things. In fact, I find it more worrying when the writers say - and apparently believe - these things. How seriously am I supposed to take such writers anymore? When these people then write reviews, it's no wonder they are a bit - let's say, exaggerated, too.

#1789
Vena_86

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uberdowzen wrote...

Weren't that bad? I've gone off, made a sandwich (literally), come back and it's only just finishing.Also, the elevators were just as bad on PC as they were on Xbox. That was the problem, the fact that load times on PC take about 7 seconds whereas they take a minute or so on Xbox. Also, I assuming you're playing on PC (please correct me if I'm wrong) so how would you know if they fixed the load times on Xbox (the load times with loading screens are the same in ME1 and ME2 on PC). I always assumed it was because the game had to read off the disc and the only way of fixing that was a hard drive install (which I assume you can still do with ME2 on Xbox). Anyway, I'm pretty sure most people hated the elevators.


It feels redundant to simply repeat what Terror_K said but here it goes....
BioWare have stated that they have better control over the engine now and that they improved loading speed, for every platform. And it never was a problem on a PC that is supposed to handle Mass Effect on normal quality. The elevator times where never much longer than the conversations or news reports took and when there was no content, then it was the same waiting for a few seconds as now with the loading screens. It was a xbox problem wich now everyone has to suffer from.

Loading screens add NOTHING. They simply tell you that a new level is loading. Elevators made the world feel connected and large. Furthermore, news reports and talking squad members made it seem like the player is not the center of the universe but rather a part of it.
Yes, many hated elevators but for the wrong reasons. Like Terror-K said, the concept never was the problem it just needed technical improvement.

#1790
Terror_K

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[quote]uberdowzen wrote...

Weren't that bad? I've gone off, made a sandwich (literally), come back and it's only just finishing.Also, the elevators were just as bad on PC as they were on Xbox. That was the problem, the fact that load times on PC take about 7 seconds whereas they take a minute or so on Xbox. Also, I assuming you're playing on PC (please correct me if I'm wrong) so how would you know if they fixed the load times on Xbox (the load times with loading screens are the same in ME1 and ME2 on PC). I always assumed it was because the game had to read off the disc and the only way of fixing that was a hard drive install (which I assume you can still do with ME2 on Xbox). Anyway, I'm pretty sure most people hated the elevators.[/quote]

I played Mass Effect on the 360 when it first came out and then got the PC version later. The elevator loads on the PC were clearly faster, especially the Normandy one. That's how I know.

As for whether most people hated the elevators or not, I think overall its pretty divided. I do recall when they first announced they were replacing elevators with loading screens many thought that it was a bit of an odd step backwards, and I agreed. At the time I know I and many others were willing to give it a go because they said the loading screens were dynamic and had interesting info displayed about your location and such, but that turned out to be an exaggeration. The loading screens in ME2 are tedious. Admittedly faster, but tedious. I also miss literally leaving The Normandy and having that perfect transition from ship to location.

[quote]
I think it was more like mid 09. I also recall a lot of people saying "Well that's OK I guess, if the rest of the game is better for it." Also, the hammerhead is a more fun vehicle than the Mako, it's more the "interesting" balance of missions in the DLC.[/quote]

Sure... if you think so. Quite frankly I think The Hammerhead misses the point and was poorly integrated and used for the most part. Far prefer The Mako in pretty much every respect.

[quote]
You say they took the easy path with the inventory, but if you go with the idea that it's the future we can just replicate this anyway, how would you have done it? I can't think of any other method of doing an inventory in that way that'd work.[/quote]

Initially, I'd personally have it like ME1, but with not quite as many items, no Marks for the items (you'd research to upgrade them), with mods still present and with the weapons actually useful and balanced so not too many become obsolete too quickly and not too many are too good either, so that overall some are good at some aspects and some at others. All items of the same time would be sorted together and could be lumped together and sold or gelled in a bunch or have a "Sell/Omnigel All But One" option and a "Sell/Omnigel All But *# of Squaddies Who Can Use Weapon*" option too. I'd have weapon and armour mods the same, and overall just make the system easier to use.

After ME2, I'd change it a bit though, because there are some good ideas in the system, even if overall its weak. Firstly, I'd keep the "you only need to find an item once" style. I'd then have had about half a dozen of each weapon type, all with stats visible for comparisons, all with the ability to mod them, and mostly in random locations that changed every time. You'd also scan for mods from dead enemies or if you didn't want to do that because its too tedious you could simply buy them in shops. LIke weapons, one mod scanned and you can replicate it, though they'd be random too. Same goes for armour: more of it, more random, more moddable and with stats and overall have it act like armour. Have it so you can armour your squaddies too. Research would basically level up your guns, armour and mods for both. Guns and armour mods would be your customisation and trade-off stuff: limited mod slots that make you pick and choose how you want the gun to function. Some mods would be ME1 style, others more specific, a little like Crysis (different barrel mods, scope mods, trigger mods, etc).

[quote]
And the idea that the weapon progression is linear is just wrong. Each new weapon (except for the one weapon you can choose late game) is a different weapon, not a better one. For example, the 2 basic assualt rifles each have their own pros and cons.[/quote]

Except that every weapon is in the same damn place every time, you're always guaranteed to get it, its upgrades are linear and always in the same place, and you can get all of them easily, and there's no customisation or real selection of weapons at all. Nothing is random. Nothing is special. Nothing is rare or even common. It's just "play the game, find the gun." It's no deeper than playing through Doom or Quake. Its linear, limited, boring and repetitive, with no depth or customisation at all.

[quote]
I disagree with the idea that ME has been dragged into the mud.[/quote]

It has somewhat, IMO. Not into perhaps, but at least through it. It's been dumbed down for the masses.

[quote]
And since when did ME1 not appeal to mainstream audiences anyway? I was under the impression that it was one of the most popular games on Xbox. Also, aren't most of the people with consoles and/or PCs nerds anyway?[/quote]

Working in a place that sells games, you'd be surprised how many people have only just glancingly heard of the ME titles. Full on hardcore gamers, yes. Casual gamers, not so much.

And no... that used to be the case 10 years ago and more, but over the last decade gaming has become far more of a mainstream thing, and games overall have suffered for it, IMO, just as much as they've also grown from it. Deus Ex is still the pinnacle of gaming perfection that hasn't been touched since, and it's over 10 years old now.

[quote]
[quote]
So... you don't think ME1 suits Mass Effect?[/quote]

This sounds weird but, no, not really.[/quote]

No offense, but that's just stupid. That's the way the thing was set up, and that's how it was originally intended to be. Just because you feel it doesn't suit itself because you prefer the way it was done with ME2 doesn't mean you're right.

[quote]
If you can find a quote from Bioware (a quote, not predictions or analysis of what a developer has said) that is an outright lie, then I might consider believing this point of view. Up until then, no.[/quote]

You just responded to one just below your post here that a couple of other posters brought up... and mocked them for doing so, might I add. Y'know... the one about saving Wrex and The Council or not paying off big time and being a major event in ME2. What a crock of excrement that was. They all talked the whole thing up and kept saying this, only for the entire thing to be completely underwhelming, with the entire plot so removed from anything that it meant squat, most variations resulting in minor dialogue changes that didn't really change the universe at all, weak substitutions where things were essentially the same which was an insult to the supposed gravity of the situation and the characters involved, major stuff that was screwed up or simply not explored, and finally just a heap of lame emails and news reports, leaving about 5 or 6 decisions in total that were even remotely satisfying out of what was claimed to be over 700.

Yeah... I think that's enough to get the point across.

[quote]
Not really. I've played CoD4 twice and there isn't much more to it. Honestly, you can pretty much just duck behind cover and shoot through it.[/quote]

Ooooh... twice! Wow.. that's certainly a good run of the game to form an accurate assessment.

[quote]
I don't think the people who bought ME1 expecting another Gears of War are the kind of people who go out of their way to register for a forum and complain about how a game isn't like another game. If they were expecting another Gears of War clone, I suspect that just stop playing ME1 and go and play one of the many other gears of war clones.[/quote]

Except that it happened. I was here on the old forums, during and post ME1 release, long before the first ME2 teaser even hit, and it came up a fair amount.

[quote]
I mean, I loved ME1, but I still the think the combat was flawed. And like I said before, there's a difference between instant satisfaction, and putting in a huge amount of effort for little to no payoff, like with ME1's inventory.[/quote]

It is flawed. I won't deny that. But that doesn't mean ME2's system is perfect either and free of flaws.

And while there is a difference, ME2 relies too much on instant satisfaction and visible results and all that BS. It's too geared to the ADD gamer who will turn away and never look back if he/she isn't satisfied and sees a clear result every time he does something.

#1791
KitsuneRommel

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Vena_86 wrote...

Loading screens add NOTHING. They simply tell you that a new level is loading. Elevators made the world feel connected and large. Furthermore, news reports and talking squad members made it seem like the player is not the center of the universe but rather a part of it.
Yes, many hated elevators but for the wrong reasons. Like Terror-K said, the concept never was the problem it just needed technical improvement.


But funnily enough there's plenty of loading screens in ME1 too. Not to mention those constant few second long "loading" stops. Isn't the ride from C-Sec to Normandy the only elevator ride that you can't bypass anyway?

You could say that using the transit breaks immersion but so does running around too.

#1792
KitsuneRommel

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Terror_K wrote...

Initially, I'd personally have it like ME1, but with not quite as many items, no Marks for the items (you'd research to upgrade them), with mods still present and with the weapons actually useful and balanced so not too many become obsolete too quickly and not too many are too good either, so that overall some are good at some aspects and some at others. All items of the same time would be sorted together and could be lumped together and sold or gelled in a bunch or have a "Sell/Omnigel All But One" option and a "Sell/Omnigel All But *# of Squaddies Who Can Use Weapon*" option too. I'd have weapon and armour mods the same, and overall just make the system easier to use.


Just add the option of equiping and leveling your squadmates without having to bring them with you and it would be great (yes I know about the lockers in the cargo bay). I just can't understand what they were thinking when they made the ME1 inventory system.

Edit:

Ooooh... twice! Wow.. that's certainly a good run of the game to form an
accurate assessment.


Just how often you are supposed to play a game to form an accurate assessment? You play a game once and say it sucks and then someone comes "No no no. You need to play it AT LEAST 3 times more before you can be sure." I don't generally play games more than once in a row. After a month, a year? Sure, time for another playthrough.

Modifié par KitsuneRommel, 12 mai 2010 - 12:48 .


#1793
SkullandBonesmember

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iakus wrote...

This line made me laugh even as it killed a piece of my soul:

"Whether you saved or sacrificed the council, who you romanced, and whether you managed to keep Wrex alive are all landmark moments which define the experience of ME2."


Many pieces of our souls have been killed thanks to ME2, but we rely on false hope that there will be a silver lining, because as Garoth said, sometimes false hope is better than no hope at all.

Modifié par SkullandBonesmember, 12 mai 2010 - 12:42 .


#1794
TMZuk

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bjdbwea wrote...

You say you want an RPG, but don't like XP? How does that fit? If anything, the game could reward you XP for sneaking around enemies too, though Shepard is not Sam Fisher. The whole gameplay and level design would have to be changed for that.

I for one found the concept of XP per mission very boring. Especially since ME 2 throws a lot more combat at you, and a lot more repetitive. At least XP would give it a little more sense. Respawning enemies would have to go of course, that's an outdated concept that never should have made it into the game anyway.


There are other RPG's than DnD, and most modern PnP RPG's do not award "kill-points". They are either skillbased, where using the skill gives you a chance to improve it, or xp is awarded for roleplay, ideas and ingenouity (sp?).

What I'd like to see is the XP per mission intact, but with more hidden bonus xp, both in and in between missions. Of course, what it all come down to, is wether Bioware will cater for the shooter-crowd or the RPG-crowd. I fear if they attempt to please both, they'll land between chairs. And yes, I'm an avid RPG fan, and for me, combat in games are a means to an end, not the goal in it self. Therefore: More story, more options, more RP! ;)

#1795
AlanC9

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TMZuk wrote...

There are other RPG's than DnD, and most modern PnP RPG's do not award "kill-points". They are either skillbased, where using the skill gives you a chance to improve it, or xp is awarded for roleplay, ideas and ingenouity (sp?).


Exactly. Like I said upthread, CRPGs preserve a lot of the bad elements of early RPG systems. Not all CRPGs do this, of course. While I don't particularly like the TES games, they have a learn-by-doing skill system -- what's bad about it is the implementation, not the concept.

Even in the D&D world kill XP is fairly unpopular among serious gamers. Many of the better NWN1 and NWN2 mods scrapped it in favor of pure quest progression. Including one of Bio's own Premium mods.

Edit: By "better" I mean according to community ratings and download counts, not my own subjective appraisal. Though I generally don't disagree with the community too much.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 mai 2010 - 05:14 .


#1796
TJSolo

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AlanC9 wrote...

TMZuk wrote...

There are other RPG's than DnD, and most modern PnP RPG's do not award "kill-points". They are either skillbased, where using the skill gives you a chance to improve it, or xp is awarded for roleplay, ideas and ingenouity (sp?).


Exactly. Like I said upthread, CRPGs preserve a lot of the bad elements of early RPG systems. Not all CRPGs do this, of course. While I don't particularly like the TES games, they have a learn-by-doing skill system -- what's bad about it is the implementation, not the concept.

Even in the D&D world kill XP is fairly unpopular among serious gamers. Many of the better NWN1 and NWN2 mods scrapped it in favor of pure quest progression. Including one of Bio's own Premium mods.

Edit: By "better" I mean according to community ratings and download counts, not my own subjective appraisal. Though I generally don't disagree with the community too much.


Per quest in NWN is doable it is a 40+ game with hundreds of quests and when those expansions came out doubled the playtime and quest count. Due to having fewer quests a game like ME2 that only has xp per quest makes the progression shallow and badly paced since the xp comes in large packets.
XP per kill takes more time to keep track of in a pnp game, it is much easier to track in software.

Modern RPGs use xp per kill, quest xp, and skill use progression. Mixing all those into one game adds depth and breath. Only using quest xp is an extremly flat progression rate which is boring and shallow. Also of the pnp rules I can find xp per kill still looks like the norm, you saying hardcore RPers don't use it mean they are using special rules not normal rules.

#1797
AlanC9

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TJSolo wrote...
 Due to having fewer quests a game like ME2 that only has xp per quest makes the progression shallow and badly paced since the xp comes in large packets.


I don't share that opinion. I've played plenty of games with character progression coming in a few large leaps, and they haven't bothered me. See, for example, Baldur's Gate 1, where a character will only level up seven times in the course of the entire game -- a game that's larger than ME2, I believe.

Modern RPGs use xp per kill, quest xp, and skill use progression. Mixing all those into one game adds depth and breath.


Modern CRPGs, if you please. 

Only using quest xp is an extremly flat progression rate which is boring and shallow.


I honestly have no idea what you mean by this. Could you elaborate?

Also of the pnp rules I can find xp per kill still looks like the norm, you saying hardcore RPers don't use it mean they are using special rules not normal rules. 


Which PnP rules are those? You don't seem to be very familiar with the genre, or even most CRPGs

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 mai 2010 - 06:02 .


#1798
TJSolo

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AlanC9 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...
 Due to having fewer quests a game like ME2 that only has xp per quest makes the progression shallow and badly paced since the xp comes in large packets.


I don't share that opinion. I've played plenty of games with character progression coming in a few large leaps, and they haven't bothered me. See, for example, Baldur's Gate 1, where a character will only level up seven times in the course of the entire game -- a game that's larger than ME2, I believe.

Modern RPGs use xp per kill, quest xp, and skill use progression. Mixing all those into one game adds depth and breath.


Modern CRPGs, if you please. 

Only using quest xp is an extremly flat progression rate which is boring and shallow.


I honestly have no idea what you mean by this. Could you elaborate?

Also of the pnp rules I can find xp per kill still looks like the norm, you saying hardcore RPers don't use it mean they are using special rules not normal rules. 


Which PnP rules are those? You don't seem to be very familiar with the genre, or even most CRPGs


What do you mean not familar with the genre, your examples of pnp rules are limited special case rules that in your words the hardcore uses and NWN after community expansions. In order to actually understand you one would need to know what you mean by hardcore. I just read the official pnp rules of the  FO, DND(the most recent from Wizards), and WOW; xp per kill , xp per quest, and skill usage are mixed in.

I don't play PnPs but I am not taking one person's word about 'hardcore RPers' special case rules when the official rules on the product says different.

#1799
Dick Delaware

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I'd rather not have XP per kill at all - it is bad design and creates an incentive for the player to just kill everything. ME2 took a step forward in this regard, however, there was never a situation that I can recall where you had either a diplomatic option OR a combat option. Quests were either entirely dialogue based (Thane, Samara), or had unavoidable combat. I want to see quests where you can have the option of shooting people, or avoid it entirely.

ME1 was quite weak in this regard as well. Sure, you can get Saren to kill himself, but you'll have to fight Mecha-Saren anyways. The Major Kyle side quest was really minor and it was nothing particularly special either.

I'd like to see more opportunities in this regard by employing alternative solutions, so allowing XP per kill creates a bad mindset. However, if you must have it, make it balanced. For example, let's say for a particular quest you get 500 XP for completing it diplomatically, or 300XP for completing it with combat + 200 XP for kills during the mission.

Modifié par Dick Delaware, 12 mai 2010 - 07:23 .


#1800
TJSolo

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Dick Delaware wrote...

I'd rather not have XP per kill at all - it is bad design and creates an incentive for the player to just kill everything. ME2 took a step forward in this regard, however, there was never a situation that I can recall where you had either a diplomatic option OR a combat option. Quests were either entirely dialogue based (Thane, Samara), or had unavoidable combat. I want to see quests where you can have the option of shooting people, or avoid it entirely.

ME1 was quite weak in this regard as well. Sure, you can get Saren to kill himself, but you'll have to fight Mecha-Saren anyways. The Major Kyle side quest was really minor and it was nothing particularly special either.


If you claim ME1 is weak in that aspect because it has a few situations( more than just Saren) that offer the player the option of combat or dialogue to resolve an issue; where does ME2 sit where it is no situations that offer that option.
Yes, there are missions that are not combat oriented but there are no missions that offer the option of combat or dialogue.


I'd like to see more opportunities in this regard by employing alternative solutions, so allowing XP per kill creates a bad mindset. However, if you must have it, make it balanced. For example, let's say for a particular quest you get 500 XP for completing it diplomatically, or 300XP for completing it with combat + 200 XP for kills during the mission.


XP per kill does not create a bad mindset any more so then XP per quest.  Having equal rewards is not fair when the time and risk are not equal. The biggest problem with XP per kill is that in ME2 Bioware uses the respawning enemies trick to stimulate battles. Respawning enemies is a step backwards along with only getting XP per mission.