10273 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

BTW, I see very few actual "plot holes" in the entire Mass Effect story to date. Now Dragon Age, that's a different story. You have to give Mass Effect a lot of credit, at least they don't have to use Epilogue slides at the end.

Mass Effect does a great job standing on it's own in-game story.

Just my opinion.

No argue there.
Only "disappointment" in ME2 that is not mind blowing like ME1.
Let me steal example from someone.
ME1 went from 0 to 88
ME2 from 88 to 92

Modifié par Mesina2, 17 mai 2010 - 07:18 .

[Lumikki]

Mesina2 wrote...

No argue there.
Only "disappointment" in ME2 that is not mind blowing like ME1.
Let me steal example for someone.
ME1 went from 0 to 88
ME2 from 88 to 92

This is funny for me,because I played ME2 first and ME1 second.

ME2 went from 0 to 88
ME1 went from 88 to 92.

I don't know, I like ME2 from start. When I then buyed ME1 too, I wan't disapoiment at all. I was actually happy, because it was so very samekind of game and did not look any older than ME2.

[CroGamer002]

Also why people think using termal clips is plothole?

Termal clips has nothing to do with plot.

Besides I know reason why they use it.



DIFFRENT GAME MEHANICS!!!!!



Why so many people can't just accept that?!

It doesn't effect plot at all.

[KitsuneRommel]

ME 1 was from 1 to X and ME 2 was from X to Y. I'm fully expecting ME 3 to be from Y to Z.

Mesina2 wrote...

Also why people think using termal clips is plothole?

Beats me. Haters be hatin'.

[xster]

have killed many, guns, knives, drugs, tech attacks, even once with farm equipment

lololololol

best character of the game

[tonnactus]

uberdowzen wrote...


I can't think of any major plot holes in ME anyway.

Geth primes use revenants. How cheap. Didnt they have the time to design own weapons for them, or what??
Such stupid things like getting platin from gas planets also didnt count,right???

How biotics work in the game.

Modifié par tonnactus, 17 mai 2010 - 08:29 .

[uberdowzen]

Almost, still a couple of episodes left.

Plot holes in ME2, thermal clips aside:

1) Kinder, gentler Cerberus.  They put their logo on the side of the Normandy!

2) "Ah, yes, Reapers"

30 Liara's attitude (may be explained in comics, I have not read them yet)

4) Virmire Survivor's attitude (connected with kinder, gentler Cerberus)

5) Armor?  What's armor?

6) Pretty much the entire final boss. including reason for colonist abductions.

I am not including lack of carryover with many decisions as a plot hole, since you can't put a hole in something that's not there. 

Oh, I assumed because we've only got like 5 episodes of Lost yet that it must've finished in that states.

1) Not a plot hole. Cerberus is being judged entirely by two quests in ME1. The only plot hole connected with this (which is more of just and oversight) is that Shepherd can't ask TIM to justify Kohoku and all the crap they were doing.

2) Makes sense. The council doesn't want to admit that the Reapers are real. They're hoping that it was just a Geth warship and that the problem is already solved. They're leaders, they've got issues.

3) Explained in the comic I think (haven't read it either though). Also, what attitude? She's pleased to see you (to a certain extent) but she's decided she's bringing down the shadow broker.

4) Remind me, where's that?

5) Not a plot hole.

6) The only thing wrong with that is the final boss (which was nuts). The idea in general is fine (also bear in mind that this is one of the elements which would be in the original plot outline so if you're not happy with it, it's still not the ME2 team's fault.)

[finnithe]

4) He's talking about Ashley or Kaiden I guess. Either it's one of those two or Rana Thanoptis.



Ashley and Kaiden were made because you were working with/for Cerberus, who they perceive as being a terrorist organization and enemy of the Alliance as well as the Citadel.

[uberdowzen]

Terror_K wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

I can't think of any major plot holes in ME anyway. I used to think that ME1's plot was a little bit nuts (seemed like the most inefficient way to attack the Citadel ever) but I thought about it and it mostly works. Can't really think of any in ME2.

I guess all the holes in the thermal clip stuff and the really silly "going in the shuttle on 'the mission' to 'the place'" don't count then?

The thermal clip thing isn't a plot hole (it's a lore change). I'll admit that it was that well done but a) it's better than some games where they don't even try to explain those things and I personally thing Gameplay > Lore. You should stick by the lore where possible (and you definetly stick by it for the plot) but if something makes for better gameplay, I'm willing to have the lore become a bit twisted.

Don't quite understand what your second one is.

[uberdowzen]

finnithe wrote...

4) He's talking about Ashley or Kaiden I guess. Either it's one of those two or Rana Thanoptis.

Ashley and Kaiden were made because you were working with/for Cerberus, who they perceive as being a terrorist organization and enemy of the Alliance as well as the Citadel.

Oh, right gotcha.

What's wrong with that? It's not a plot hole and the way the character reacts seems fine. You'd be pissed if after your friend had been dead for 2 years the first thing they did wasn't to get into contact with you.

[uberdowzen]

tonnactus wrote...

Geth primes use revenants. How cheap. Didnt they have the time to design own weapons for them, or what??
Such stupid things like getting platin from gas planets also didnt count,right???

How biotics work in the game.

Why can Geth Primes not use Revenants? If it's a good weapon why wouldn't you. That seems very Geth-ist. And no, getting minerals from gas giants isn't a plot hole. It doesn't really work, but it's not a plot hole.

[KitsuneRommel]

Plot hole: pirates surviving indefinitely on a planet with class 1 pressure hazard while your team can survive 30-45 seconds outside the Mako.

[uberdowzen]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

Plot hole: pirates surviving indefinitely on a planet with class 1 pressure hazard while your team can survive 30-45 seconds outside the Mako.

Yeah, that's the point. If you went back over ME1 with the same fine tooth comb being used on ME2 you'd find just as many "plot holes".

[tonnactus]

uberdowzen wrote...


Why can Geth Primes not use Revenants?

Its an weapon made by organics.How the geth get them?Yes,they could copy them,but why?
The geth technology is more advanced by the "new lore", they invented the thermal clips, remember?

And now they use revenant machine guns? Holy crap.This game is so stupid sometimes.

Modifié par tonnactus, 17 mai 2010 - 11:06 .

[tonnactus]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

Plot hole: pirates surviving indefinitely on a planet with class 1 pressure hazard while your team can survive 30-45 seconds outside the Mako.

Level 1 hazard was always suviable indefinetly if one team member was using a devlon armor that protects against it.

No plothole.The pirats just used armor with enviroment protection.

[KitsuneRommel]

tonnactus wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...

Plot hole: pirates surviving indefinitely on a planet with class 1 pressure hazard while your team can survive 30-45 seconds outside the Mako.

Level 1 hazard was always suviable indefinetly if one team member was using a devlon armor that protects against it.

No plothole.The pirats just used armor with enviroment protection.

So they all just happened to wear it but none of them drop one when killed?

Yes. Stupid loot system is stupid.

Modifié par KitsuneRommel, 17 mai 2010 - 11:15 .

[uberdowzen]

tonnactus wrote...

Its an weapon made by organics.How the geth get them?Yes,they could copy them,but why?
The geth technology is more advanced by the "new lore", they invented the thermal clips, remember?

And now they use revenant machine guns? Holy crap.This game is so stupid sometimes.

Doesn't mean that all Geth technology is better. And the only thing I can think of that's more advanced are the thermal clips. Going by ME1 the Geth Weapons are actually pretty crappy.

And even so, how is that a plot hole? That's a slight lore inconsistency, a plot hole is a plot element that does not make sense. Take a look at this before you state any more apparent "plot holes"

[CodeMyster]

[Kusabi]

My issues with this game are honestly relatively small because I consider [Mass Effect 2] to be an incredibly far more improved sequel. To get something out of the way, my feeling on the subject of Mass Effect 1 vs. Mass Effect 2 is that the easiest way to remedy the constant comparisons between the two is to "simply" combine what worked for Mass Effect 1 and what worked (well) for Mass Effect 2. Not THAT simple because it involves delving into the user-feedback here and on other forums and being able to discern what is a legitimate complaint and what is "fan-dumb" complaints. With that out of the way, I'll say one thing that I liked about the sequel (as someone who's only played the games and nothing else) and something that I didn't like in the sequel (remember the golden rule here; this is all my opinion in the end!):

What I love:innocent:

The characters have considerably more depth to them than many of the characters did in the original. The Illusive Man is hands-down one my most favorite characters that I have had the joy of having in a video game (This from someone who has played video games since the NES) by a long shot. Up until the end of the game, you really are never sure of what his motives are and to what ends his means justify. Another character I really enjoyed was Jack; sure her attitude seems a little cliche but as far as narrative character development is concerned, she is far more involving and had far more depths to her than say, Jacob, Kaiden or Ashley. Underneath her "tough-girl" facade, her general attitude of not needing anyone to live on with and her misanthropy (for lack of better term) of everyone around her, she is really an extremely flawed, deeply insecure and incredibly broken individual who honestly needed Shepard and his crew far more than she wants to admit it or accept it.

That's of course not going into everyone else like Miranda, Garrus or Legion. Especially Legion, because (without spoiling anything) before Legion, a certain "race" was generally accepted, rather haphazardly, to be only a villainous species with the drive to eliminate all other sapient life in the galaxy other than theirs. The only "hint" to this in the first Mass Effect was that they were alluded to several times to have established a religion of sorts, ergo, they had some sort of intelligence. SEE!?!? Character depth and story plotting that actually manages to be very fresh and relatively intelligent given it's source material.


What I hate 

Planet-Scanning... that "side-game" is literally "Filing Your Taxes: The Game" and it is seriously the worst side-game to a main game that I have ever experienced! If this was a replacement to the Mako missions, then I would honestly rather have NEITHER!

So those are my two cents. Overall, I am incredibly surprised by this game because as much as I loved the original, I am fully aware of and empathetic of the criticism that people gave it.

[Iakus]

uberdowzen wrote...

1) Not a plot hole. Cerberus is being judged entirely by two quests in ME1. The only plot hole connected with this (which is more of just and oversight) is that Shepherd can't ask TIM to justify Kohoku and all the crap they were doing.

Three quests, but who's counting?    And yes, not being able to confront TIM about them, especially with the Sole Survivor background is a major plothole.  They were a clear villain in ME 1, yet in ME2 they seem to operate more or less openly.  Despite it being considered "treason" to work for them, only the quarians seem to show anything but mild suspicion of them (with one other exception)

uberdowzen wrote...

2) Makes sense. The council doesn't want to admit that the Reapers are real. They're hoping that it was just a Geth warship and that the problem is already solved. They're leaders, they've got issues.

I can understand if they want to keep a lid on things.  No need to cause a panic when you don't even know how immediate a threat the Reapers are or how they'll strike next.  If that was the case, they could speak plainly in front of Shepard, who warned them of the Reapers in the first place, in the privacy of Anderson's quarters.  But outright denying they exist?  Come on!  Has the Council been eating paint chips for the last two years?  A salarian and volus scientist with a modified medical scanner managed to figure out the truth!

uberdowzen wrote...

3) Explained in the comic I think (haven't read it either though). Also, what attitude? She's pleased to see you (to a certain extent) but she's decided she's bringing down the shadow broker.

It's not her attitude towards Shepard that bothers me, per se (can't comment on if she was the LI in ME1 though), so much as a general change in her outlook. 

In ME1 she was a somewhat nerdy archeologist specializing in the Protheans

Two years later she's an information trader to rival the Shadow Broker, who's threatening  her clients to pay up or she'll flay them alive "with my mind" (I wonder if any Mass Effect writers are Firefly fans?)

If it is explained in the comics, that's kinda disappointing.  This stuff should be explainable in-game.

uberdowzen wrote...

4) Remind me, where's that?

Sorry, I refer to the squadmate on Horizon as the "Virmire Survivor" since it's the one who doesn't stay behind and gets nuked.

The problem I have is thus:

This person was with Shepard virtually the etirety of ME !  was saved by Shep more than once and was loyal enough to commit mutiny to take the Normandy to Illos.  In the end, Shepard was proven 100% right and saved the frakking galaxy!  Now, after two years, Shepard is somehow miraculously alive and just saved a human colony, and the Survivor too.  The most likely response would be:

A)  Shepard!  You're alive!  It's so good to see you! 

B  Shepard!  I saw you die!  How is this possible?

C Shepard!  You're alive!  Why haven't you contacted me?  You're working for Cerberus?  You traitor!

D)  Shepard!  You're working for Cerberus?  But wait a minute, Garrus is with you.  Why would Cerberus work with a turian?

Okay the last one's a joke, but let's face it, given how much the two have been through together, Shep's earned a chance to be heard out.

uberdowzen wrote...

5) Not a plot hole.

Okay maybe not.  But definitely a pet peeve.  People may not like inventory, but armor only makes sense if you're going somewhere you're likely to get shot at. 

uberdowzen wrote...
6) The only thing wrong with that is the final boss (which was nuts). The idea in general is fine (also bear in mind that this is one of the elements which would be in the original plot outline so if you're not happy with it, it's still not the ME2 team's fault.)

The final boss was definitely nuts, I was actually ashamed of Bioware during that fight.  If it was part of the original outline, it was really, really, poorly executed.

Problem with the idea:

Numbers needed would likely have emptied the Terminus Systems, either through further attacks, or people just packing up and returning to Alliance space. 

The Alliance was already aware something was up, even if they were slow to respond.  Sooner or later the Alliance would forcefully respond, especially if Citadel space were to get hit, which would have to happen one they run out of targets in the Terminus.

Again, what were the Collectors/Reapers hoping to accomplish? 

Modifié par iakus, 18 mai 2010 - 03:27 .

[Iakus]

Kusabi wrote...

My issues with this game are honestly relatively small because I consider [Mass Effect 2] to be an incredibly far more improved sequel. To get something out of the way, my feeling on the subject of Mass Effect 1 vs. Mass Effect 2 is that the easiest way to remedy the constant comparisons between the two is to "simply" combine what worked for Mass Effect 1 and what worked (well) for Mass Effect 2. Not THAT simple because it involves delving into the user-feedback here and on other forums and being able to discern what is a legitimate complaint and what is "fan-dumb" complaints. With that out of the way, I'll say one thing that I liked about the sequel (as someone who's only played the games and nothing else) and something that I didn't like in the sequel (remember the golden rule here; this is all my opinion in the end!):

What I love:innocent:

The characters have considerably more depth to them than many of the characters did in the original. The Illusive Man is hands-down one my most favorite characters that I have had the joy of having in a video game (This from someone who has played video games since the NES) by a long shot. Up until the end of the game, you really are never sure of what his motives are and to what ends his means justify. Another character I really enjoyed was Jack; sure her attitude seems a little cliche but as far as narrative character development is concerned, she is far more involving and had far more depths to her than say, Jacob, Kaiden or Ashley. Underneath her "tough-girl" facade, her general attitude of not needing anyone to live on with and her misanthropy (for lack of better term) of everyone around her, she is really an extremely flawed, deeply insecure and incredibly broken individual who honestly needed Shepard and his crew far more than she wants to admit it or accept it.

That's of course not going into everyone else like Miranda, Garrus or Legion. Especially Legion, because (without spoiling anything) before Legion, a certain "race" was generally accepted, rather haphazardly, to be only a villainous species with the drive to eliminate all other sapient life in the galaxy other than theirs. The only "hint" to this in the first Mass Effect was that they were alluded to several times to have established a religion of sorts, ergo, they had some sort of intelligence. SEE!?!? Character depth and story plotting that actually manages to be very fresh and relatively intelligent given it's source material.


What I hate 

Planet-Scanning... that "side-game" is literally "Filing Your Taxes: The Game" and it is seriously the worst side-game to a main game that I have ever experienced! If this was a replacement to the Mako missions, then I would honestly rather have NEITHER!

So those are my two cents. Overall, I am incredibly surprised by this game because as much as I loved the original, I am fully aware of and empathetic of the criticism that people gave it.

From a technical standpint, yes, ME 2 is way better than ME 1

The characters are pretty much what drive this game.  The Illusive man, however, never fooled me into thinking he was anything but a villain (this coming from someone who's been playing video games since the Atari 2600)  Thane, Samara, Legion, all provide unique perspectives on the universe.  Even Garrus and Tali show new facets of themselves.  And yes, Jack is a very colorful character, both literaly and figuratively 

I actually don't mind planet scanning.  Of course, I didn't mind the Mako either.  What really bugged me was the lack of central story.  The Collectors are supposed to be the villains, but we hardly ever see them, or fight them  The whole time we're building up to this big, bad "Suicide Mission"  which was really a half hour or so of combat  with a few really easy choices.  It had some impressive moments, but overall anticlimactic.  Oh, and I hated the last boss too.

ME2 had some good elements, but without a good central story it was like having cheese, tomato sauce, bread, sausage, but it just couldn't come together to become a pizza.  ME1 wa a mighty fine pizza

[Ricinator]

i had one main issue... (player driven story)

every choice made had the same outcome.... every decision felt weak and worthless...

importing added nothing because you had no reall consiquce for your actions. When you ruin fists life and you see him again in ME2 i would have expected him to try and take your life but no he just talks to you...

i feel disheartened by the fact that we are forced to go down the same basic path to the end instead of breaking off at the begining of the trilogy like i thought we would. ME3 will have the same pattern, all choices = same basic outcome with the very end mattering only.

i want to be such a dick in ME1 and 2 that people we always try to kill me in ME3 is that to much to ask for? is it to much to ask for when if you are to nice to people that they wont do what you say for once? the only point i ever saw someone in the ME universe stand up to me was when i tryed to force the fake i.d. on the asari on the citadel, only time ever!

plz bioware break you formula of all paths to the exit

[KitsuneRommel]

Ricinator wrote...

importing added nothing because you had no reall consiquce for your actions. When you ruin fists life and you see him again in ME2 i would have expected him to try and take your life but no he just talks to you...

Well I always take Wrex with me and he shoots Fist so I'd say that's a rather big consequence for Fist.

[Terror_K]

uberdowzen wrote...

The thermal clip thing isn't a plot hole (it's a lore change). I'll admit that it was that well done but a) it's better than some games where they don't even try to explain those things and I personally thing Gameplay > Lore. You should stick by the lore where possible (and you definetly stick by it for the plot) but if something makes for better gameplay, I'm willing to have the lore become a bit twisted.

It's a lore change however that has created plot holes, mostly in relation to Jacob's father and Zaeed (who himself has a backstory that seems contradictory and doesn't quite gel, which is why I choose to believe its mostly BS), on top of the fact that its just such a flimsy idea that itself is filled with holes and ridiculousness.

Don't quite understand what your second one is.

When you all pile into a shuttle at the worst time and go absolutely nowhere just so Collectors can attack The Normandy. That's even stupider than breathing masks protecting you from the effects of exposure to space, normal clothes stopping bullets and storing a Geth in the A.I. core of your ship.

[LimberRain]

Why are a lot of people attacking the final boss? They made it a VERY BIG point in ME1 to point out that the logic of the reapers is seriously warped/unknowable by our standards. How can we expect to understand the logic of organic machine creatures that have existed for 10's of millions of years? Maybe the first reaper was built by a madman and imprinted with an unstable personality. Maybe they are just crazy.... I do not see why that is an impossibility