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[Iakus]

Ecael wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

iakus wrote...

Between bouts of ME 1, I'm slowly working my way through a tird playthrough of ME2 between bouts of ME 1 as well, but as an experiment (How small a squad can I do the Suicide Mission with, trying for six)  And it's less bad, than before.  But I think that's because I'm using an import frm an ME 1  that I didn't run.  This game is less personal.  This Shep isn't really "mine" so I care a lot less about what choices were or were not made.  Kaiden's all mad at me?  So what?  My choices last game are ignored? Who cares, they weren't my choices to begin with Collectors working for Reapers?  If you say so, Villain-wise though they seem to  be placing fourth, somewhere between security bots and wild varren.   I have nothing invested in this Shep but curiosity. 

ME 2 is playing much better as a standalone game.  This is probably not a good thing.

I agree. ME 2 may be okay as a standalone game. But as a successor to THE ME 1, it is not. Too many steps back, too many cut corners. The actual improvements (mostly technical stuff like graphics and sound) can't outweigh that at all.

That may have influenced a lot of the problems inherent (or even carried over) in Mass Effect 2. Mass Effect 1 works fine as a standalone game with a standalone plot - whether or not they made two more games, the player can just assume Shepard goes on to stop the larger threat at hand with the help of the Council. Mass Effect 2 was planned as a standalone game without a standalone plot. This puts a lot of pressure on the dozen writers working on the project.

Movie trilogies often have the same problems without a definitive novel to work with - The Matrix is definitely an example of this - and they don't even have to worry about what their audience chose in the last movie nor do they have to worry about making it 30-40 hours long! So this may be the current view of some on the forums on ME2:

A standalone game could have been made without taking a chainsaw to the first game's plot though. I can understand (to a certain degree) not wanting to confuse new players.  But really, the plot could have been advanced a little bit.

ME1's plot was like an entire season of Babylon 5:  an overall storyline with a few  standalone stories.
ME2's plot was like an entire season of The A-Team.  You can pick it up anywhere and not really miss anything.

And do NOT reference the Matrix Reloaded with Mass Effect, or I'll get so depressed I won't bother to get ME 3

[uberdowzen]

iakus wrote...

"I Remember Me"  pulled at my heartstrings
The Virmire choice pulled at my heartstrings
Tali's loyalty mission pulled at my heartstrings (best paragon interrupt ever)
Miranda's loyalty mission pulled at my heartrings
Heck, the female krogan in Mordin's loyalty mission kinda tugged at my hearstrings

Horizon just makes me go "Huh?"

What, you wouldn't be pissed if your friend came back from the dead and was now working for people who previously you'd found out were an evil splinter group? I didn't think there was anything weird about that encounter.

[uberdowzen]

iakus wrote...

ME1's plot was like an entire season of Babylon 5:  an overall storyline with a few  standalone stories.

You lost me when you compared ME1's plot to Babylon 5. 

[Ecael]

iakus wrote...

A standalone game could have been made without taking a chainsaw to the first game's plot though. I can understand (to a certain degree) not wanting to confuse new players.  But really, the plot could have been advanced a little bit.

ME1's plot was like an entire season of Babylon 5:  an overall storyline with a few  standalone stories.
ME2's plot was like an entire season of The A-Team.  You can pick it up anywhere and not really miss anything.

And do NOT reference the Matrix Reloaded with Mass Effect, or I'll get so depressed I won't bother to get ME 3

There seem to be very few standalone sequels that even carry over the last game's plot with any continuity. Usually the writers of those sequels will just take a few characters and write an entirely new story or write the same exact story in a different way. Dragon Age 2 will be the former.

So, about those Matrix Lord of the Rings movies...

[JoeFooser]

One minor quibble I have with ME2 is not being able to get early access to squad member's loyalty powers on subseqent playthroughs. You have to play through the game again, take on your squadmembers' missions again, and then be able to have them use their unique powers. It would be nice to have this at the start of the game since you already unlocked them before. Most of my favorite games have this feature, which is a big reason I like to play games over and over again. Again, it's nothing major, just a little something that makes playing games over again more fun.

[SkullandBonesmember]

uberdowzen wrote...

What, you wouldn't be pissed if your friend came back from the dead and was now working for people who previously you'd found out were an evil splinter group? I didn't think there was anything weird about that encounter.

Yeah, well, as you've made clear throughout this thread, you'll accept anything Bioware throws at you provided there are a handful of dialogue options, limited cutscenes, and headshots galore to top it all off.

[uberdowzen]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...



Yeah, well, as you've made clear throughout this thread, you'll accept anything Bioware throws at you provided there are a handful of dialogue options, limited cutscenes, and headshots galore to top it all off.

Have you actually played ME2? It's a deep emotionally complex game, with tough choices. Just because those choices don't always have an immediate effect doesn't mean that they aren't tough choices or that they won't affect things later on. Each of the 10 companions are very well fleshed out (with the possible exception of Garrus and Zaeed) and are a lot deeper than ME1's.

You seem to be guaging ME2 on the sum of it's parts. Rather than taking the experience as a whole, you're dividing it up into it'd individual parts (talks on Normandy, combat, sidequests, etc) and then comparing them to ME1. Sure, some of the characters don't have quite as much dialogue (although most do) than in ME1 but you're completely ignoring character development in the loyalty missions. Going back to the Normandy conversations, you are judging these entirely on the amount of dialogue, rather than how effective the digital acting (micro gestures, action etc) is in getting the same amount of character development across.

And how can you not see that the combat in ME2 is so much better than in ME1? It's satisfying, tactical and fun. Every class feels well thought out and have there own unique play style, encouraging replay value.

If Bioware made a terrible game I would be totally willing to spurn it. I just don't think that ME2 is a terrible game.

[SkullandBonesmember]

uberdowzen wrote...

Have you actually played ME2? It's a deep emotionally complex game, with tough choices. Just because those choices don't always have an immediate effect doesn't mean that they aren't tough choices or that they won't affect things later on. Each of the 10 companions are very well fleshed out (with the possible exception of Garrus and Zaeed) and are a lot deeper than ME1's.

You seem to be guaging ME2 on the sum of it's parts. Rather than taking the experience as a whole, you're dividing it up into it'd individual parts (talks on Normandy, combat, sidequests, etc) and then comparing them to ME1. Sure, some of the characters don't have quite as much dialogue (although most do) than in ME1 but you're completely ignoring character development in the loyalty missions. Going back to the Normandy conversations, you are judging these entirely on the amount of dialogue, rather than how effective the digital acting (micro gestures, action etc) is in getting the same amount of character development across.

And how can you not see that the combat in ME2 is so much better than in ME1? It's satisfying, tactical and fun. Every class feels well thought out and have there own unique play style, encouraging replay value.

If Bioware made a terrible game I would be totally willing to spurn it. I just don't think that ME2 is a terrible game.

I don't consider little chats in between combat emotionally satisfying. If anything it takes away from the immersion. Bioware saw people wanting less dialogue and they said "Screw it. We're going to go out of our way to lengthen combat as much as possible, we'll throw in dialogue in between headshots and call it 'character development'. THAT'S the way to go."

[brfritos]

Ecael wrote...

"Almost all those mercs that had gotten killed by Archangel" - which is fairly vague, as he could have watched the news and saw the dead bodies made by just Archangel (before Shepard even arrived). Regardless of whether or not you go early or take days to do that mission, he's still going to watch the news at some point if you do that interrupt. Just because Shepard went straight to the Normandy after helping him doesn't mean Shepard didn't spend days on Omega doing other tasks or even just strolling around.

Like I said, everything in Mass Effect is explainable in some way or another. And people should put more effort into explaining or solving instead of complaining and nitpicking.

Wizards:wizard:

Sure, the same can be said from the mail you receive on regarding the colony of Zhu's Hope, thanking you for the help with the colonist or Shiala on Illium, right?
Like Jack says, "come on, you know how the galaxy works, you've been around".

The context in wich this facts occours counts nothing, I'm assuming. 

About quotation from wiki, how about this one:

"Denial is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

The subject may use: minimisation - admit the fact but deny its seriousness (a combination of denial and rationalisation)"

[ ]'s

[Iakus]

uberdowzen wrote...

iakus wrote...

"I Remember Me"  pulled at my heartstrings
The Virmire choice pulled at my heartstrings
Tali's loyalty mission pulled at my heartstrings (best paragon interrupt ever)
Miranda's loyalty mission pulled at my heartrings
Heck, the female krogan in Mordin's loyalty mission kinda tugged at my hearstrings

Horizon just makes me go "Huh?"

What, you wouldn't be pissed if your friend came back from the dead and was now working for people who previously you'd found out were an evil splinter group? I didn't think there was anything weird about that encounter.

If said friend was a comrade in arms who had saved my life on more than one occasion, incluing an exploding nuke on Virmire,

If said friend had previously taken up arms against this evil splinter group, and had killed dozens of said group's agents, plundered their files, and disrupted their attempts to create super-soldiers out of husks, rachni, and thorian creepers,

If said friend saved the galaxy from an ancient threat few others took seriously, to the point of defying the Council and commiting mutiny, but this friend had proven to be 100% accurate about,

And if said friend had just saved a human colony (and me, again) from a new alien threat...

...I'd think my friend would have earned enough trust to take a moment to find out what the frak was going on and what would push this friend to to such desperate straits as to ally with this group. 

[Iakus]

uberdowzen wrote...

iakus wrote...

ME1's plot was like an entire season of Babylon 5:  an overall storyline with a few  standalone stories.

You lost me when you compared ME1's plot to Babylon 5. 

Lost you, as in disagree, lost you as in don't know what I'm talking about, or lost me as in Babylon 5 makes you queasy?

[uberdowzen]

iakus wrote...

If said friend was a comrade in arms who had saved my life on more than one occasion, incluing an exploding nuke on Virmire,

If said friend had previously taken up arms against this evil splinter group, and had killed dozens of said group's agents, plundered their files, and disrupted their attempts to create super-soldiers out of husks, rachni, and thorian creepers,

If said friend saved the galaxy from an ancient threat few others took seriously, to the point of defying the Council and commiting mutiny, but this friend had proven to be 100% accurate about,

And if said friend had just saved a human colony (and me, again) from a new alien threat...

...I'd think my friend would have earned enough trust to take a moment to find out what the frak was going on and what would push this friend to to such desperate straits as to ally with this group. 

But Kaidan isn't like that. He's an Alliance guy, he'd never join Cerberus. And you've been dead, who says you're the same guy you used to be. In fact, joining Cerberus would just back up this theory in his view.

[KitsuneRommel]

iakus wrote...

Lost you, as in disagree, lost you as in don't know what I'm talking about, or lost me as in Babylon 5 makes you queasy?

NOTHING is comparable to B5.

But if you insist:
ME1 is like season 2 of B5
ME2 is like season 3 of B5
ME3 will be like season 4 of B5
Season 1 has TKO and Infections
Season 5 is a lie.

[uberdowzen]

iakus wrote...

Lost you, as in disagree, lost you as in don't know what I'm talking about, or lost me as in Babylon 5 makes you queasy?

Babylon 5 is distinctly average.

[Terror_K]

uberdowzen wrote...

Babylon 5 is distinctly average.

Blasphemy! You're lucky I don't cast thee out or smite thee or something.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...
ME1's plot was like an entire season of Babylon 5:  an overall storyline with a few  standalone stories.
ME2's plot was like an entire season of The A-Team.  You can pick it up anywhere and not really miss anything.

Not really. They didn't add people to the A-Team over the course of a season. I'd say viewers would be just as confused by not knowing who the hell the new character is than by missing whatever bullet points they needed from the ME1 episode they missed.

Still, a minute or so of "Previously on Mass Effect" and you'd be up to speed.

[uberdowzen]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

I don't consider little chats in between combat emotionally satisfying. If anything it takes away from the immersion. Bioware saw people wanting less dialogue and they said "Screw it. We're going to go out of our way to lengthen combat as much as possible, we'll throw in dialogue in between headshots and call it 'character development'. THAT'S the way to go."

First, I somewhat disagree with you that combat has been lengthened. Virmire was just one long combat experience, as was most of Feros. Second, so what, you want all character development to take place on the Normandy? That seems to go against your point that you want less combat and more dialogue. And I don't think anyone was complaining about there being too much dialogue. I think people complained about 5 minutes of dialogue which was essentially just talking heads and I recall people saying that the combat could be improved, but I definetly don't remember anyone saying "Too much dialogue, not only did I buy this game expecting a pure shooter, I was so dissapointed that this wasn't what it was that I signed up for a forum and spent all my time complaining about it."

[uberdowzen]

Terror_K wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

Babylon 5 is distinctly average.

Blasphemy! You're lucky I don't cast thee out or smite thee or something.

Sorry, Sheldon doesn't like it, 'nuff said.

[Iakus]

Ecael wrote...

iakus wrote...

A standalone game could have been made without taking a chainsaw to the first game's plot though. I can understand (to a certain degree) not wanting to confuse new players.  But really, the plot could have been advanced a little bit.

ME1's plot was like an entire season of Babylon 5:  an overall storyline with a few  standalone stories.
ME2's plot was like an entire season of The A-Team.  You can pick it up anywhere and not really miss anything.

And do NOT reference the Matrix Reloaded with Mass Effect, or I'll get so depressed I won't bother to get ME 3

There seem to be very few standalone sequels that even carry over the last game's plot with any continuity. Usually the writers of those sequels will just take a few characters and write an entirely new story or write the same exact story in a different way. Dragon Age 2 will be the former.

So, about those Matrix Lord of the Rings movies...

That's actually one reason I was really excited about ME being a trilogy.  I figured the technology was finally here to make a true multi-volume game, or a reasonable facimile of one,  I probably set my bar too igh, but up til now Bioware had met or exceeded all my expectations.   As it is, it looks like ME 2  took the former route as well.

It's a cruel thing to assure an RPG-er that "decisions matter" that all these choices you pondered over will be imported into the next volume to make it a unique experience, only to find out it's just a simplified, sexed-up standalone mass of side quests.  "We'll get around to resolving the choices next game"

If they'd given the Collectors a bigger role (essentially leaning a bit more into the "same story different way" option) I might have been able to overlook the lack of resolution.  I'd be too busy enjoying the mystery of who the Collectors were, what their motives are, how they were connected to the Reapers. As it is, the Collectors are hardly in the game at all, and EDI spoon-feeds you all the pertinent information as needed.

And Lord of the Rings was essentially one long story split up into three volumes.  Kinda what I hoped Mass Effect would be.

[SkullandBonesmember]

uberdowzen wrote...

First, I somewhat disagree with you that combat has been lengthened. Virmire was just one long combat experience, as was most of Feros. Second, so what, you want all character development to take place on the Normandy? That seems to go against your point that you want less combat and more dialogue. And I don't think anyone was complaining about there being too much dialogue. I think people complained about 5 minutes of dialogue which was essentially just talking heads and I recall people saying that the combat could be improved, but I definetly don't remember anyone saying "Too much dialogue, not only did I buy this game expecting a pure shooter, I was so dissapointed that this wasn't what it was that I signed up for a forum and spent all my time complaining about it."

I don't want character development to be only on the Normandy, I just want a breather from combat. A relaxed, personal environment is ideal for character development. And I've already quoted a few posts of people complaining about dialogue and story.

[SithLordExarKun]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...



I don't want character development to be only on the Normandy, I just want a breather from combat..

Neither do i honestly but both games had this flaw where you can only get deep into character development on the normandy. KOTOR and DAO in my opinion had much better character interaction where character dialogue isn't only limited to one specific place.

[SkullandBonesmember]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Neither do i honestly but both games had this flaw where you can only get deep into character development on the normandy. KOTOR and DAO in my opinion had much better character interaction where character dialogue isn't only limited to one specific place.

No, in ME2 character "development" was extended to the battlefield.

[Onyx Jaguar]

iakus wrote...

Ecael wrote...

iakus wrote...

A standalone game could have been made without taking a chainsaw to the first game's plot though. I can understand (to a certain degree) not wanting to confuse new players.  But really, the plot could have been advanced a little bit.

ME1's plot was like an entire season of Babylon 5:  an overall storyline with a few  standalone stories.
ME2's plot was like an entire season of The A-Team.  You can pick it up anywhere and not really miss anything.

And do NOT reference the Matrix Reloaded with Mass Effect, or I'll get so depressed I won't bother to get ME 3

There seem to be very few standalone sequels that even carry over the last game's plot with any continuity. Usually the writers of those sequels will just take a few characters and write an entirely new story or write the same exact story in a different way. Dragon Age 2 will be the former.

So, about those Matrix Lord of the Rings movies...

And Lord of the Rings was essentially one long story split up into three volumes.  Kinda what I hoped Mass Effect would be.

Well thats because it was one story that was split up.  In regards to Mass Effect though may have had an arc outlined for three stories but I doubt they wrote it as a singular story to begin with.  Technology can limit story telling and you have to adjust, if not you get a situation like Awakenings.

[SithLordExarKun]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Neither do i honestly but both games had this flaw where you can only get deep into character development on the normandy. KOTOR and DAO in my opinion had much better character interaction where character dialogue isn't only limited to one specific place.

No, in ME2 character "development" was extended to the battlefield.

Thats a hell of a lot better than ME1's supposed "character development" if thats the case.

[AlanC9]

SithLordExarKun wrote...
 KOTOR and DAO in my opinion had much better character interaction where character dialogue isn't only limited to one specific place.

Of course, KotOR 2 notoriously required you to have the right characters in the right places. But that wasn't a Bio game.