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[Maria Caliban]

One of my favorite villains in modern literature is Hannibal Lector. He’s intelligent, urbane, sophisticated, and one of the most purely evil villains you’ll find. He eats people because he’s contemptuous of their status of people. And let’s not forget Anthony Hopkins – you need an actor that oozes charisma in order to make so repulsive a character fascinating.

When it comes to computer games, it’s harder to give villains the level of psychological depth you can in a book, and you don’t have live actors like Anthony Hopkins, Al Pacino, or Chistopher Walken. While computer graphics are excellent, they still lack compared to the real thing.

I have to say that Dragon Age tried mightily in this regards. Loghain stars in two novels and has Simon Templeton as a VA – it still doesn’t work *for me* but I’m not so arrogant* to say that Loghain doesn’t have depth to him. He’s as deep as Irenicus was and many people find him a compelling fellow.

People who aren’t me.

When it comes to psychological depth of villains (this is not the only measurement of a good villain), I’d say that Pyramid Head (Silent Hill) and the Transcendent One (Planescape) were the only video game villains that reach Lector status in my mind, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that both of them are the hero.

Most of my favorite video game villains attract me not because they’re ‘deep’ but because they fulfill an iconic role. Prince of Persia (the latest one) had a very satisfying group of villains: There is the big evil that’s so evil you never fight him but instead try to keep him contained. There’s the good man who loves his daughter and does something horrible to save her, thus dooming his people and falling to corruption. (In the end, the hero does the exact same thing, which makes this double plus good) Lastly, there are the four mini-villains, all interesting, unique from one another, and fallen to corruption through simple and understandable human desires.

I dislike lukewarm villainy. Either give me deep, flawed, and realistic villains or give me flashy, colorful Disney villains.

One of my problems with BioWare’s villains is that they’re neither. Take Neverwinter Nights: I loved the first villain, the fake Helmite. The first time I met him, I wanted to smack that arrogant, sanctimonious ******. However, the actual villain of the game might as well have been random mook 3947. Did she have a personality? A name? Did she even actually speak during the game?

Horde of the Underdark also featured a great secondary villain. The Val’sharess was about as hammy as Easter dinner and it worked wonderfully. The only thing that would have made her better is if Tim Curry did her voice acting.

You know who my favorite villain in Dragon Age was? Bronka. I wandered into the underdark deep roads thinking that she would be my ‘third option’ instead of the two dwarven dudes for king. By the time I finished killing the broodmother and the gauntlet, I wanted slam her skull into the Anvil until both of them smashed opened. I absolutely HATED her, and thought she was a vile, pathetic waste of flesh and breath. That’s a great feeling – if you can get me to utterly hate a villain, I don’t care if they’re about as deep as the blow-up kiddie pool my niece uses in the summer.

IN CLOSING, what do you think about BioWare’s villains? Who are your favorite video game villains and why do you like them?

*Utter lie

[Nonvita]

Maria Caliban wrote...

You know who my favorite villain in Dragon Age was? Bronka. I wandered into the underdark deep roads thinking that she would be my ‘third option’ instead of the two dwarven dudes for king. By the time I finished killing the broodmother and the gauntlet, I wanted slam her skull into the Anvil until both of them smashed opened. I absolutely HATED her, and thought she was a vile, pathetic waste of flesh and breath. That’s a great feeling – if you can get me to utterly hate a villain, I don’t care if they’re about as deep as the blow-up kiddie pool my niece uses in the summer.

IN CLOSING, what do you think about BioWare’s villains? Who are your favorite video game villains and why do you like them?

I definitely agree with your post (and I'm not going to show it to my boyfriend for fear he might fall in love with you), although I do think Loghain is a great villain for Ferelden and this story. I quoted your part about Branka because I have to agree completely. That whole sequence was actually the best in the entire game, simply because I felt so much hatred toward everything going on. It is horrifying, disgusting, disturbing, evil, vile, repulsive, I could go on. I'll admit my character just saved the Anvil, and it seriously made me sick to do it. Leaving Branka alive makes me want to punch something. I think I reloaded ten times because it didn't sit right with me. I will never do it again.

I honestly am not sure what video game villains are great because I don't play that many video games. I played NWN and just found Aribeth annoying, and I can't really remember any of the other villains... My boyfriend likes Kefka (FF6), Delita (FF Tactics), Sydney Lostarott & Romeo Guildenstern (Vagrant Story), and Liquid Snake & Psycho Mantis (Metal Gear Solid).

As for movie villains, I like either the insane and unforgettable or the intelligent villain who plays your intellectual rival. Alex De Large (A Clockwork Orange), Anton Sigur (No Country for Old Men) and Noah Cross (Chinatown) are truly amazing and despicable villains.

I will also do something terrible and recommend a manga for you to read. It is amazing, and you'll love the main villain.
It's called Monster.


But all things aside, I think Hogger in WoW may still be the greatest bad guy ever created. I hated that ****er.

Modifié par Nonvita, 28 février 2010 - 07:10 .

[CalJones]

Bioware's villains haven't always been terribly sophisticated. Sarevok (much as I love him) was motivated by a lust for power and it's only when you find his diary that you might realise that he's a little more complex (emphasis on "a little.") Irenicus is slightly more interesting in so far as he's motivated by power and revenge - but a large part of his charm comes from his voice acting. (I had some sympathy for his plight, but the fact he hadn't learned anything from it made him irredeemable in my eyes - and I'm pretty big on redemption. It did make me hate the stupid elf queen, though).

Then we're back to power grabbing with smelly Melly in ToB and Darth Malak in KotOR (I did play NWN but only once - I consider it Bioware's one bum note, though essentially it was a toolkit with a rather mediocre game bolted on. The villain wasn't that memorable to me in terms of character),

Fortunately things picked up with Mass Effect - Saren's motives are warped but he genuinely believes he's doing the only thing he can to save the sentient races from the Reapers. And then we have Loghain. I see him as an antagonist rather than a villain - some people do seem to hate him but to me, he's basically a good man doing the wrong thing for the right reason. I'm not going to start yet another Loghain discussion because we've got enough of those, but the fact he's been the centre of so much passionate debate shows me that he is a great success as a character.

There aren't really too many villains I really hate. Bodhi (Irenicus's sister in BGII) I absolutely despised, and Melissan (though really I just hated her because she was obviously up to no good and you couldn't tell her to take a hike. She was another vanilla power-grabby villainess with hardly any depth to her, but I'll blame that on the length of the expansion. She might have been more interesting had ToB been a full-length game, but sadly she was a bit of a let-down after Irenicus).

I've played a lot of games over the years and few villains have really stood out. President Eden and the Enclave were interesting in Fallout 3, and there are as many pro/anti Enclave threads on the Bethesda boards as there are pro/anti Loghain threads over here.

Kreia (KotOR 2) is another outstanding character, but also one I can't bring myself to hate - in my mind she is one of the best and most complex villains in gaming history. The fantastic thing with that game, though, is that the real villain is actually yourself, whether you choose to embrace it or

not.

Being a former games journalist I could ramble on for hours about all the games I've played so I'll stop there. The one thing I'd say is that, while I've been gaming seriously since around 1989, stories and their villains have only become as sophisticated as they are now relatively recently. And hopefully, this means that character depth will continue to improve in future games.

I'm quite intrigued by this Architect fellow, for starters.

[Kryyptehk]

CalJones wrote...

Kreia (KotOR 2) is another outstanding character, but also one I can't bring myself to hate - in my mind she is one of the best and most complex villains in gaming history. The fantastic thing with that game, though, is that the real villain is actually yourself, whether you choose to embrace it or
not..

This, a thousand times this. I got a hint of Kreia from Morrigan but not to the point that I felt it much after that. I like villains who I either REALLY want to kill or wish there was some way to save them.

Loghain didn't really do that for me. I agree with you Cal, that he was a complex antagonist, but I didn't hate him at the end and I wasn't inclined to give up Alistair in order to save him.

With Kreia, even though she essentially betrayed you at the end, I still wanted to save her at the end. Because she was the only person who cared so deeply for you that she would kill to protect you. That woman has influenced every other character I have created because of this.

I feel like Arl Howe could have been a better villain, but he isn't even mentioned in other Origins so that would just kind of come out of left field. I wish Loghain had done something bigger to affect you, I just felt no emotional attachment to the battle. I didn't know Cailan, I didn't know Duncan, I could have cared less if he died. In fact, when I first played the game I was praying that Duncan would look up to see the signal so he could die knowing that ALISTAIR hadn't failed him. Not myself.

As a human noble, I thought Arl Howe was a good villain but as for Loghain... Meh, I only recruited him once to talk to him.

[Daerog]

Architect does sound great, but have to wait to see the execution (not as in his death, but how he is used) of his character in Awakening. Didn't care about any of the villians in DA, although thinking about the fate of the Old Gods makes me like the Archdemons as the villians.

I kind of liked Saren as the villian in ME.

Evil mentor thing is okay, and it was fun in JE, but not very inspiring, although Kreia was neat.

Darth Malak was too much of a fool, so Revan was the only cool villian in KotOR, before the game started.

Didn't play BG and don't really remember the villians in NWN.

As for myself, I like to read about villians who are the villian by circumstance... I'm not sure if I said that right, but someone who just disagrees with the hero and opposes him, but isn't evil. The song "Mordred's Song" by Blind Guardian comes to mind.

Also, I like villains who take evil to heart and in no way try to justify their actions. They just accept it and act, but are in no way mindless. I'm not a fan of the FF series, but I did like FF7 (and its related stories/games) and loved Sephiroth's character.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 28 février 2010 - 08:25 .

[The_Abyss]

Maria Caliban wrote...


When it comes to psychological depth of villains (this is not the only measurement of a good villain), I’d say that Pyramid Head (Silent Hill) and the Transcendent One (Planescape) were the only video game villains that reach Lector status in my mind, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that both of them are the hero.

My memory of the transcendent one is fuzzy, but he wasn't your typical villian. However as far as I could recall, he wasn't exactly "evil" in the traditional sense either - all he wanted was self preservation, because if you merged with him, he's gone, and if you were kept in the dark, constantly forgetting about him, he would be free to "live" forever.

[le_cygne]

Loghain is a good example of what I want in a Bioware villain. My first character would've killed him at the cost of her own life, and my second sympathized with him and wanted to redeem his fall. I think he's their best work so far, and I'm glad they went the extra step to make him recruitable and redeemable.



That said, I agree with you that the best villains are either flawed and believable (like Loghain), or over-the-top and truly monstrous (like Branka, who's hard not to hate entirely, regardless of one's position). Torment, as you mention, had some superb villains.



To me, though, the greatest video game villain of all time, far and away, is System Shock's malevolent AI, SHODAN. She (it, really) has all the best qualities of an omnipotent, malevolent Disney villain--she really is a nigh-omniscient and omnipotent god of the environment in her games--but also comes off as far more human and flawed than almost all actually human villains. She walks the line perfectly, and it's her vanity and overconfidence that make her so compelling: she is indeed incredibly powerful to the player character's "insect," but not quite the literal deity she believes herself. And, at the end of the day, she's just so much fun, and so easy to hate as you dance to her tune: "When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. I am SHODAN."

[krylo]

Hmm... Bioware villain? I'm going to have to second Cal and say Saren. In the beginning you hate him. Think he's a monster. A psychopath out to destroy everything you hold dear. By the end though? By the end I just felt sorry for him. He truly believed that he was trying to save the sentient races of the galaxy, and the fact that you can talk him into snuffing himself at the end really adds a lot of depth and character to him.



Loghain is pretty good, too, but, like you, he just doesn't really do it for me for some reason. I never really hated him. I think he needed more screen time, as that what I see of him I like, but I never see enough to build up a good loathing or respect. Perhaps in one of my future play throughs where I plan to let him live for once he'll shine a bit more.



As for other video games, though: Have you played Heavenly Sword? King Bohan is an absolutely amazing and stunning villain, who is played by Andy Serkis: Which is to say Gollum--via motion capture. He's probably my favorite villain in any game. He has just the right mix of insanity and humanity, far better than I've seen in most video games.

[sylvanaerie]

Actually I kinda liked Loghain in the role of villian.  I know a lot of people like him as a character and I admit I can see where he might be viewed as tragic but by the time Landsmeet rolls around and I think I might justify sparing him my PC just wants to cut off his head.  In fact I want Wynne to revive him so I can cut it off again and again a few more times.  Once just isn't enough for me!

My first playthrough was on the HN Origin and I knew what he was going to do in Ostagar when he turned from Cailan and you could SEE it, this was going to just end in tears. Later when he introduced Arl Howe as the Teryn of Highever to my face...well once he did that, it didn't matter what PC I was playing, Loghain had to die.  At that point I just wanted a "Spit in his face" option.  And if you pay attention to the chat while running through the Arl of Denerim estate you hear about Highever and what Howe did to become Teryn (if you are on a different PC from the HN).

The whole slavery thing got me too.  When Caladius (I think thats his name) offers his 'little service' to me at the end of the Alienage encounter I just feel sick thinking of what those poor elves are going to encounter in Tevinter.  Freaking blood mage mana batteries till they are sucked dry.  Yea what little pity I have for him is gone at this point.  His justification of his actions later at the Landsmeet just seals it.  At least Jowan mans up at the end and accepts his fate without offering a bunch of excuses.

I usually play as elf or human, just can't get into the dwarven mind set so his villiany kind of strikes a cord with me.

As for depth of character, nah I don't think many villians can stack up to Hannibal Lecter.  That was a well written character but in his own way, Loghain certainly evoked a LOT of hatred for me.

[guytza]

Hannibal Lecter....to give you an idea of how creepy that was I'll tell you a story I heard from the set. Apparantly every morning on the set they would hear one of the female crew scream in horror. The source was Sir Anthony Hopkins going up behind them and saying "Good Morning" in the Hannibal Lecter voice. I love that story.
Anyway, I like Loghain as an obstacle rather than a villian. The ultimate villian is the blight, Loghain is simply a man preventing you from getting the soldiers you need to take out the villian. For all his scheming and plotting and what-not he still only comes up to the category of 'mini-boss' in my mind. Still, as evident by this discussion and so many like it, he is a great character.
As for pure evil villians though....remember Kefka from Final Fantasy? I played an audio track of his laugh at work only a few months ago and at least 4 people instantly recognized the bastard. Now thats Villiany.

For those of you who want to reminisce.... www.badassoftheweek.com/kefka-laugh.wav

[CalJones]

Oh I love Badass of the Week - one of my favourite wastes of time.

[Cancermeat]

You should play Heavy Rain, the villian in that game is actually on par with the ones in the movies without giving too much away.

[Maria Caliban]

I don't have a PS3.

[Herr Uhl]

I want more (sophisticated) psychopaths. Howe had some potential to become one, but he got too little of a role.

[Maria13]

The one I liked, definitely a potential goodie turned to evil is Javia. One phrase: "Kill them all, except for the pretty one... I have plans for her".



I just can't stop wondering what those plans were...

[Cancermeat]

I would like to see a villian who kind of blends humor into his/her character without going over the deep end. I really liked Gene Hackman's portrayal of Lex Luther. Video game characters are a lot more sophisicated than they used to be or maybe a lot was lost in translation because I used to play Japanese games. I think that Heavy Rain is a big step in the right direction as well as Dragon Age, but there is a long way to go. Getting big Hollywood actors to play your characters isn't enough without good writting and direction.

[Sabriana]

My problem with accepting Loghain as a real villain was that I felt sorry for him too many times.

Branka, now that was a different story altogether. I badly wanted to storm that barricade to just shut her up. Her rantings and ravings were really steaming me up, and I hated her quite a lot already. The whole Anvil sequence was incredibly well put together.

[UberuceIAm]

guytza wrote...

Hannibal Lecter....to give you an idea of how creepy that was I'll tell you a story I heard from the set. Apparantly every morning on the set they would hear one of the female crew scream in horror. The source was Sir Anthony Hopkins going up behind them and saying "Good Morning" in the Hannibal Lecter voice. I love that story.

I heard that on the first day of filming in the glass cell Sir Tony was standing there in the boiler suit getting into character while a lighting techie called Billy was doing his luminous thing. Anthony turned to him and said, in the Lector voice "you're in my cage, Billy" at which point he ran for the hills. Sir Tony knew he'd nailed it when that happened.

Thusly, my dust-gathering videotape of Silence of the Lambs is not labelled with the title, but instead with "You're in my cage, Billy".

[sylvanaerie]

Sabriana wrote...

My problem with accepting Loghain as a real villain was that I felt sorry for him too many times.
Branka, now that was a different story altogether. I badly wanted to storm that barricade to just shut her up. Her rantings and ravings were really steaming me up, and I hated her quite a lot already. The whole Anvil sequence was incredibly well put together.

I don't feel sorry for Loghain.  If he was a man caught up in circumstances beyond his control maybe I would but he made those bad choices and instead of fixing the mess just kept doing things to make it worse.  Then tried to justify them by passing the blame to whomever else he could (usually the GW's who also for some reason instantly became Orlesian despite where they were from).  For me he really is the villian of this game, even more than the AD was.  At least Loghain had a choice, the AD seems more a force of nature, unable to do other than what it was doing.  In fact killing Loghain was more satisfying than killing the Archdemon for me.  Guess I took everything he said and did a little too personally.

Branka...she was some piece of work.  By the time I got to her cutscene I couldn't stand her.  Poor Hespith and then to see the others from her house all dead to her obsession...She was absolutely vile.

Hmm they may not be Hannibal Lecter...but these were some interesting antagonists.

[Cancermeat]

I think that the video game villain needs to be a difficult opponent, as well as having character depth. I have to be convinced that this person can kill me this person can hurt those i care about. To use Fable 2 as an example, the main bad guy certainly was a ville person, but i didnt feel satisfied when i killed him with one hit.

Modifié par Cancermeat, 28 février 2010 - 07:04 .

[1bloodyrogue]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Architect does sound great, but have to wait to see the execution (not as in his death, but how he is used) of his character in Awakening. Didn't care about any of the villians in DA, although thinking about the fate of the Old Gods makes me like the Archdemons as the villians.

I kind of liked Saren as the villian in ME.

Evil mentor thing is okay, and it was fun in JE, but not very inspiring, although Kreia was neat.

Darth Malak was too much of a fool, so Revan was the only cool villian in KotOR, before the game started.

Didn't play BG and don't really remember the villians in NWN.

As for myself, I like to read about villians who are the villian by circumstance... I'm not sure if I said that right, but someone who just disagrees with the hero and opposes him, but isn't evil. The song "Mordred's Song" by Blind Guardian comes to mind.

Also, I like villains who take evil to heart and in no way try to justify their actions. They just accept it and act, but are in no way mindless. I'm not a fan of the FF series, but I did like FF7 (and its related stories/games) and loved Sephiroth's character.

Wow I so disagree I liked Darth Malak.  When he tortured Bastilla telling her how he's gonna break her.  Then the end game quote..


"Still . . . still spouting the wisdom the Jedi, I see. Maybe there is more truth in their code than I ever believed. I . . . I cannot help but wonder, Revan. What would have happened had our positions been reversed? What if fate had decreed I would be captured by the Jedi? Could I have returned to the light, as you did? If you had not led me down the dark path in the first place, what destiny would I have found?"
―Darth Malak, dying, to Revan

Making you feel guilty for a choice you never really had in the end lol.

Also how is Master Li not mentioned?!  What generally feels like a father figure to your main character steals you from BIRTH!  Just to plot to use you to aid his eventual take over. 

[Khayness]

Irenicus and Bodhi are the only BioWare villains I didn't end up liking in one way or another, they are really good. Without ToB Sarevok might have had the same fate, Melissan had a great potential, the game was too short to give her more depth. I know the villain reveals to be your mentor/helper sounds cliche, but well written they can give you some jaw-dropping time.

Favourite video game villan, hmmmm, maybe Jacques de Aldersberg from The Witcher, that one quite give me the wtf face and something to ponder about.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bioware villains have always been satisfactory at worst, brilliant at best.



A and Kreia sucks.

[e-ver]

I must agree with the appreciation of Planescape: Torment's Transcendent One as one of the best villains I've seen in a game. (I have to admit though, that I'm very biased when it comes to Planescape:Torment, because in my opinion it is one of the best games ever made and the fact that it had not the commercial success that would have led to more games like it, is one of the tragedies in gaming history for me.)

Another villain I appreciated was Morrowind's Dagoth Ur. He was a tragic figure (a lot more so than Irenicus in my opinion) and you never found out if he really was the villain in the beginning or if he started out as the hero.

I think as a rule, I can say, that I like villains that have a connection to the PC, like the Transcendent One was connected to the Nameless One and Dagoth Ur was connected to Nerevar Reborn. But of course that doesn't fit in every game and would probably get old, if every game did it.


Loghain is not really the villain of Dragon Age for me, he's more like an antagonist. Branka is a good enough villain, mostly because of the dilemma that the player can (and has compelling reasons to) side with her.

I think Flemeth could be a fantastic villain in the making for the Dragon Age setting and I'm anxious to see what Bioware does with her in Dragon Age 2.

Modifié par Allerleihrau, 01 mars 2010 - 11:07 .

[Kekse2k]

I truly have no qualms with BioWare's villains which, for me, is enough. I'm admittedly easily satisfied, always content with the story presented so that my brain may nitpick the ramifications during times of extreme boredom (a constant condition, actually). After some thought, I am more fascinated by tragic villains than by villains who elicit pure rage/hate/revulsion. I suppose it's easier to spin a longer tale in my mind that way.

For a BioWare game, I must say my favorite "villain" would be Kreia. I still remember how strongly she disapproved of my habit of helping those in need. She said:

"And what is it you think you have accomplished? If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself … and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. You stole that struggle from them, cheapened it. If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory."

Or the time I gave a beggar money. She pointed out that by giving him something that others craved, by elevating his position, he drew the attentions of those who sought to take from him what they jealously desired. So, basically, he got jacked. Or, gee, when she said:

"You are greater than any I have ever trained. By killing me here—you have rewarded me more than you can possibly know."

That broke my heart. xD. But, yeah...Outside of BioWare, I quite like the villain Brother Cavil from the Battlestar Galactica series. At first, he was such a punk, then when I found out he was the actual villain, I hated the series for placing such an annoying geezer in the position. But, upon learning more about him as he spoke with his creator, I was satisfied. He had a very powerful motivation, but what made him the true villain (unlike Kreia, who was more like my hero...*cough*) was that he couldn't rise above his flaws. In the end, he killed himself, which was very unexpected because I wanted him to redeem himself so very badly. His speech which explained why he was so angry and vengeful, and then his creator's response that, as much as he hated being human, he was employing the most petty of human emotions--powerful stuff.

A lot of the time, people did some stupid stuff in Battlestar Galactica that made me say they were the villains, but they ultimately redeemed themselves later, somehow, which was annoying. That's why I hate/love Cavil.

And then there's GlaDos...and...yup.