53 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

No disney type villans please.

I think what Bioware does best is create great antagonists, rather than villains in the true sense of the word. For instance, I can't really call Saren or Loghain villains. But rather antagonists.

The only one that came close to classic villainy is Darth Malak. He doesn't mind destroying an entire planet just to get one person. Laughs alot. And generally has no real depth. He makes good points about what the Jedi did, but even if you turn to the dark side, you end up killing him. So meeh.

But in general, that's how I like it. I prefer realistic antagonists, not "villains". I think they tried it with Howe and he was very meeeh. That doesn't mean I wouldn't appreciate a real, well written villain. Perhaps the Architect is going to be one. The thing is, well written villains usually end up being antagonists one can sympathise with. The only villains I love to hate are LEctor and the Joker, because they are insane.

[Mlai00]

+1 to exactly what KnightofPhoenix said.

I don't want villains. I want antagonists. Loghain was an excellent antagonist. I understood exactly what he was doing and why. The only reason I fought against him was because we were both on a path of no return. In fact, by betraying Cailan, he might have saved Fereldan long enough for me to defeat The Blight. (That is debatable.)

Branka is... yes, a villain. BUT, if I had the choice (rather than my PC), I would have saved the Anvil and Branka. Nothing is cut and dry. Think about what is happening to the Dwarves, as a species. If your PC is a human/elf, I would say to him/her, "How dare you judge not just a dwarf, but a Paragon?"

I'm playing a dwarven commoner currently, and I'm going to have to destroy the Anvil once again, sigh. Because I know exactly where the "volunteers" will come from, if the Anvil is used to make more golems. This time it won't even be a dilemma.

[TheMufflon]

What is this? A villain thread without mention of the greatest video game antagonist of all time? I speak, of course, of Planescape: Torment's The Namless One; whose sinister, insane and regret-fueled machinations you fought against in one of the greatest cRPGs of all time.



As for Bioware villains, I kinda like Loghain. They made him a bit over the top at times, at the war council he was practically twirling his moustach, but apart from that he really makes sense. Which, when it comes down to it, is my main critera for a great villain. Oh, and he is the main villain of Dragon Age: Origins, the Blight and the Archdemon are just setting.

[Curlain]

Kryyptehk wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Kreia (KotOR 2) is another outstanding character, but also one I can't bring myself to hate - in my mind she is one of the best and most complex villains in gaming history. The fantastic thing with that game, though, is that the real villain is actually yourself, whether you choose to embrace it or
not..

This, a thousand times this. I got a hint of Kreia from Morrigan but not to the point that I felt it much after that. I like villains who I either REALLY want to kill or wish there was some way to save them.

Loghain didn't really do that for me. I agree with you Cal, that he was a complex antagonist, but I didn't hate him at the end and I wasn't inclined to give up Alistair in order to save him.

With Kreia, even though she essentially betrayed you at the end, I still wanted to save her at the end. Because she was the only person who cared so deeply for you that she would kill to protect you. That woman has influenced every other character I have created because of this.

Indeed, Kreia has to be my favourite antagonist yet, Morrigan echoes her character in some respects but she just never matched to true ambiguity and depth of Kreia (who also came across as a far more consistent survival of the fittest style character).

Even by the end, you were never sure what her angle concerning the Exile was, was she a villain or was she still preparing you as always.  It became a complex relationship between the Exile and Kreia, and my only regret with KOTOR2 is that is was incomplete, had it been complete it truly would have been better then KOTOR 1.  It was certainly much more complex, with deeper characters.

[e-ver]

TheMufflon wrote...

What is this? A villain thread without mention of the greatest video game antagonist of all time? I speak, of course, of Planescape: Torment's The Namless One; whose sinister, insane and regret-fueled machinations you fought against in one of the greatest cRPGs of all time.

*snip*

The Transcendent One was mentioned in the opening post (and I mentioned him and the Nameless one as well). It's of course open to debate, if the Nameless One and the Transcendent One are or are not the same being, but that would lead us probably a bit too far offtopic.

[AndreaDraco]

My favorite antagonist comes from an adventure game. I'm thinking of Baron Friedrich Von Glower in A Gabriel Knight Mystery: The Beast Within. He's smart, polite, tremendously charming, subtly mesmerizing and incredibly alluring.



From BioWare's game, I like Death Hand (from Jade Empire) and Darth Malak. I have high hopes for The Architect, even if I think that Loghain's complex personality made up for a wondrous antagonist, like KnightOfPhoenix said.

[Demx]

Allerleihrau wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

What is this? A villain thread without mention of the greatest video game antagonist of all time? I speak, of course, of Planescape: Torment's The Namless One; whose sinister, insane and regret-fueled machinations you fought against in one of the greatest cRPGs of all time.

*snip*

The Transcendent One was mentioned in the opening post (and I mentioned him and the Nameless one as well). It's of course open to debate, if the Nameless One and the Transcendent One are or are not the same being, but that would lead us probably a bit too far offtopic.

Does posting a thread in the wrong forum count as off-topic as well?

[Sabriana]

Well, I've thought about it, and I think my favorite villain(s) is the Borg Collective from STNG. They don't think they are evil, they think they are right. The biggest scare for an individual society is one who strives to wipe that out, and thinks nothing of it. They are not evil, not in their collective mind, nor villainous, but they scare the beejesus out of me.

As for games, the one I love to hate, but who isn't called (or generally viewed as) a villain is Lord Nasher. I really despise him, especially in the original NWN. I hated what he did to Fenthick and Aribeth.

[roundcrow]

Re: Kefka, I remember when I first talked to the NPC in Vector that tells you how Kefka became insane, probably on my fourth or fifth playthrough. I always wondered why Gestahl kept him around after that...he was a useful weapon, but far too unbalanced. Especially since he seems to have shown much better judgement when it comes to Celes and Leo, and also has an understanding of how dangerous magic is (Terra with the Slave Crown).



I didn't really hate Loghain *that* much on my first playthrough, and that was before I read Stolen Throne and The Calling (actually not done yet). This time I'm just frustrated with him making stupid decisions and being obsessed with Orlais. I want him to be better than that.

[Helios969]

Arl Rendon Howe! Never have I played a game where I felt more satisfaction killing a nemesis. Of course, you have to play a Cousland to feel the full weight of hatred. He sort of reminds me of Grima Wormtongue from Lord of the Rings.

[Sabriana]

Oh lordy. I always felt sorry for Grima in the end. I hated him at first, but when he looked out over the orc/uruk-hai force, his facial expression made me think that he didn't anticipate that much of an overwhelming force launching an attack on Helm's Deep.

Speaking of the movie, of course, not the books. There he's an a*shat.

[CarlSpackler]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Most of my favorite video game villains attract me not because they’re ‘deep’ but because they fulfill an iconic role. Prince of Persia (the latest one) had a very satisfying group of villains: There is the big evil that’s so evil you never fight him but instead try to keep him contained. 

This was one of the aspects I really liked about the first Ultima 7game. (Find I've been mentioning that game a lot on these boards lately, even found some of the music at the tavern in Denerim reminiscent of some U7 music.)

The whole goal of U7:TBG was to prevent the guardian from entering Britannia, not to defeat him as it were.  (I think Origin and company failed miserably in U9 and their 'explanation' of the guardian, but maybe that's just me.)

Maria Caliban wrote...
IN CLOSING, what do you think about BioWare’s villains? Who are your favorite video game villains and why do you like them?

As for Bioware's villains? Obviously Irenicus is a fav here.  Good story and motivation.   While I loved to varying degrees Bioware's other games (actually more than BG2 in some cases), I'd be hard pressed to name as stirring a  villain.  I enjoyed the story of Master Li in JE.  And although a little disappointed in a few of the plot details from ME2, I still think the possibility of an excellent reaper villain reveal for ME3 is good.  (Although we always create some impossible expectation in our minds.)  I will say for DAO, I definatley hated Howe (happy to end him), although Loghain was the more complicated character.  There was enough evil committed by him throughout the game that I thought merited his execution regardless of his motivation.  (Of course I'm not a big ends justify means kind of guy either.)  Still I thought Bioware did a good job of making me understand the 'why' of Loghain.  It didn't excuse him in my book, but in the end I understood.

Other video game villains, well I already mentioned the Guardian from Ultima, but he was only a great villain in his mystery, which was sadly misused.  The triumvirate of the Sheriff, Pryor, and Abbot from the old Sierra Adventures of Robin Hood.  Hated those three, was elated to see them taken down by my Robin Hood.  LaChuck from Monkey Isaland, great Villain! 

(Trying to think of some who haven't already been mentioned but I will certainly second Krieia and gladdoss.  And I'm one of few beleaguered souls who enjoyed PST, but never loved it the way so many on here do.)

[CarlSpackler]

AndreaDraco wrote...

My favorite antagonist comes from an adventure game. I'm thinking of Baron Friedrich Von Glower in A Gabriel Knight Mystery: The Beast Within. He's smart, polite, tremendously charming, subtly mesmerizing and incredibly alluring.

Good call, can't believe I forgot the Baron.  Likely because I much preferred Tim Curry's VA to the guy they used in GK2.

[Noir201]

Best game villain, i say master li in jade empire. Best film villain, joker in the dark knight, and best tv villain, Nina Myers in season 1 of 24.

[CalJones]

Kreia was actually Obsidian, not Bioware, but close enough I guess.



Master Li was quite a fun one because, for once, I didn't see that plot twist coming. I certainly wanted my revenge after that. Deaths Hand I had some sympathy for - he didn't really have a lot of say in what he became. I didn't recruit him though, but gave him his peace.

[Mlai00]

My human noble didn't kill Loghain. Killing Loghain is like killing Thomas Jefferson. Or Ulysses S. Grant. Or Patton. Maybe you didn't think of that because Fereldan is a fictional country. But I know that there are just some men who can not and should not be killed. Justice is a petty motivation, in the greater scheme of things.

[Behindyounow]

I prefer the despicable villains.



I want to go "You bastard!" at them... Not "Awww! He isn't so bad after all!"

[Kohaku]

I wasn't going to respond at first until I read some of the other responses. I'll take a shot.

I've played lots of games, spanning from JRPGs to Western ones and I never really thought about the villains. In particular kinds of games the villains are just sprite swapped. Same personality but a different face.

However, my favorite villain would have to be the Joker. He is just such a complex character and is one of my favorite characters in the DC Universe. I don't know if anyone can see inside his head and everyone has a different idea on what the Joker is like and what are his motivations.

I didn't say a game villain because none of them stood out to me. I closed my eyes and all these images of villains I've defeated since I was eleven started rushing into my brain. None of them hold a candle flame to comic villains.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 02 mars 2010 - 05:44 .

[CarlSpackler]

Maria opened this thread talking about one of her favorite screen villains with Lector, and wanting a game villain that rivaled him. It occurred to me that one of the most despicable yet real screen villains that I think should be realized in a game is Noah Cross from Chinatown. Powerful, mysterious, arrogant, purposefully offensive and without going into spoiler territory for those haven't seen Chinatown, just completely loathsome. And yet for me, he never came across as evil for the sake of evil. He wasn't a guy who stood on the top of mount evil declaring evil. He felt real, in large part to John Huston's performance I think. Anyways, would love to see a game villain like Cross. He would provide all the motivation I would need to destroy everything about the man.

[DalishRanger]

Kekse2k wrote...
For a BioWare game, I must say my favorite "villain" would be Kreia

Kreia's not Bioware's. She's Obsidian's. She is a great antagonist, regardless.

As for Loghain... Mn. I didn't really hate him, but I didn't feel sorry enough for him to spare him just yet in any of my past playthroughs (though he did somehow end up in my endgame coronation scene, which baffled me, as he should've been dead and headless. ). Even so, I found him rather compelling and had fun facing against him at the Landsmeet.

I'm with several others on Branka. Screw getting all the achievements, I can never bring myself to spare the crazy woman. A small part of me feels sorry for her, but most of me just wants to stab her in the face. In a good way.

[AlanC9]

Maria Caliban wrote...


I have to say that Dragon Age tried mightily in this regards. Loghain stars in two novels and has Simon Templeton as a VA – it still doesn’t work *for me* but I’m not so arrogant* to say that Loghain doesn’t have depth to him. He’s as deep as Irenicus was and many people find him a compelling fellow.

People who aren’t me.

Could you clarify your "depth" metric a bit? I'm not quite clear why one character would fail and another succeed.

[Kekse2k]

I am an utter fool for forgetting BioWare and Obsidian's little deal with KoTOR II. My baaaaad. xD. Well then...I'll have to think on this matter more. I suppose I'd go with...Sarevok for his initial bad-assery, then his possible redemption in Throne of Bhaal. It's fun to participate in the redemption of someone so wholly murderous and ambitious; it's a good feeling, aye.

[Brockololly]

One of my issues with DAO was the lack of a really good villain/antagonist. Loghain is a good character but he felt too removed from the Warden to really be a hate-able villain, especially since it seems as if the Blight is the true threat with Loghain being a speedbump on the way to the Archdemon.

Howe was a very despicable villain especially if you did the human noble origin, but like Loghain, you only deal with him at the beginning of the game and then at the very end.

My problem with the Blight was that, ok, we know the darkspawn are evil and need to be destroyed but beyond Duncan and the King being killed off, we really don't have much of a personal interest in saving Ferelden. As a human noble, you have that personal interest in killing Howe. In BG2, the PC has a personal interest in dealing with Irenicus as he tortured you and your party and wants your power, similar to Malak in KOTOR (who also could have turned Bastila to the dark side and tortured her too).



It seems like in Awakening the Architect will be a little bit more of a hands on villain/antagonist which should help give a face to the darkspawn better than the Archdemon did. I think that most good villains in games need some sort of personal connection to the player and while the villain might be pure "evil," I think some of the better villains out there might perform "evil" acts, but in their mind they legitimately believe what they are doing is the "right" thing. Based on The Calling, it seems like the Architect and his plan for the Old Gods fits that.

[Gill Kaiser]

Lacking a live-action actor needn't be a hindrance to having a compelling villain. Just look at the character Hopkins based his performance of Hannibal Lector on - HAL 9000.

[guytza]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...


However, my favorite villain would have to be the Joker. He is just such a complex character and is one of my favorite characters in the DC Universe. I don't know if anyone can see inside his head and everyone has a different idea on what the Joker is like and what are his motivations.

The Joker is a bit of an odd character, and not just for the obvious reasons, if I recall the story I heard correctly, he was originally created as a one shot, a villian to go up against the batman and be the badguy of the day. I think his first showing was threatening to blow up a bus of boy scouts, so they werent pulling any punches on him being bad. After that story, he was never suppossed to see the light of day again, but for some inexplicable reason the character just kept coming back to the writers, and they had to tell another story with this psychotic clown from hell. As the Batman comics became more cerebral and psychological the joker really came out as the truest incarnation of evil, a role forever mirrored on film in the Dark Knight. He always reminded me of Iago from Shakesperes Othello, cause you never understand the motivation, you know its there, but you just cant figure it out.