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[WInd and Rain]

Hey everyone, I just need to know one thing: Are the factors concerning the survivability of squadmates formulaic, or random? Anyone know? Are they different for each ally? Loyalty based?

Somehow in my first playthrough, I did everything right. I saved the whole crew and everyone survived. I couldn't understand why there was all this doom 'n gloom tension and drama around people "dying" and "not coming back" in the marketing leading up to the game's release. Now... I have no idea how I was able to pull that off. I seem to lose more people with each consecutive playthrough! :B

Reason why I ask:

Playthrough 1: "Crissium", Lvl60 ME1 Import, Femshep Engineer, Ruthless Spacer, played on Insanity

• Squad: Tali & Grunt
• No romance, as she stayed loyal to Liara from ME1
• No deaths, Normandy crew was saved
• Everyone was loyal except Zaeed because during his side quest she saved the people from burning alive, leaving him to sulk in his own self-serving revenge plans. However, he somehow survives the suicide mission (to her chagrin).
• Tech Spec: Thane
• Biotic Spec: Samara
• Fire Team Leader: Garrus for both
• Somehow I did everything right.

Playthrough 2: "Idaho", Lvl 54 ME Import, Maleshep Adept, Earthborn War Hero, played on Hardcore

• Squad: Zaeed & Garrus
• No romance, as he stayed loyal to Ash from ME1
• 2 deaths: Legion and Miranda, Normandy crew was saved
• Tech Spec: Legion
• Biotic Spec: Samara
• Fire Team Leader: Miranda for both
• Legion was loyal. No idea why he died. He's probably the best tech spec on the team so the choice was obvious for him to crawl through the ducts and open the door. He got his head blown off trying to close the blast doors.
• Miranda was not loyal due to Idaho telling her to "back off" during her confrontation with Jack, so I was expecting her to die. She died at the very end.

Playthrough 3: "Eli", ME2 created, Maleshep Infiltrator, Spaceborn Sole Survivor

• Squad: Legion & Tali (apparently someone is not safe if you're using them in your squad)
• Tali romance
• 4 deaths!!!! Jack, Zaeed, Garrus, and Legion
  
• Tech Spec: Garrus
• Biotic Spec: Jack
• Fire Team 1: Samara
• Fire Team 2: Zaeed
• Jack was not loyal, because I defended Miranda during their blow-out, so her death doesn't surprise me.
• Zaeed was not loyal, because I wouldn't let him leave people to burn and die due to his wrecklessness.
• Garrus was completely loyal... HUH??? I had him maxed out, all conversation options done, totally loyal. Only difference between this and prior playthroughs was on his side quest I let his target go and convinced Garrus not to pull the trigger, which he appreciated in the end. So I thought a nice ribbon was tied around that. I was in shock when he took the bullet in the head while closing the blast doors.
• But the real bomb was Legion. I got the IFF way early in the game just so I could take him as far as I could with his conversations and his loyalty. Obviously this meant sacrificing the Normandy crew, so I saw that coming. I had Legion before anyone else's sidequest. So I could not believe it when he died. I was distraught because I worked hard, knowingly sacrificing the crew, just to develop a relationship with him. The way he died: he got swallowed up by bugs because Jack fell over from exhaustion at the end of maintaining the biotic bubble for us, I had to carry her the rest of the way and Legion got left behind.

So I'm mystified at this point. What goes into the parameters in squadmate mortality during the suicide mission? Are they different for each person? Did Legion die because I put Jack on Biotic Spec duty while she was disloyal? Or does she just run out of steam whether she's loyal or not? She wound up dying at the very end anyway. I cannot fathom why Legion died. He had both Geth Shield Boosts. No idea what I did wrong.

Anyway, I don't think I want to know all the answers, I'm just curious if it's random, or if there are set parameters that need to be met in order to ensure a squadmate's survival in the suicide mission.

Any insight would be interesting and entertaining for me. This isn't a complaint post, it's just up here for conversation. I enjoyed all three games and the variety of experiences each playthrough provided.

[MatronAdena]

in the second one...... Legion most likely died, as the not loyal Miranda did not have her head in the game enough to lead properly.



Loyalty will get the best performance out of everyone... a person " best suited" for a situation will bomb it if they are not loyal... like the " hold the line" group... you want Grunt, Zaeed, and Garruss there. However if Grunt is not Loyal, he's not tame enough to sit still for a drawn out fight. This will get that line killed, and as a side effect of that get the escorts killed.

( pick loyal and skill to lead Team A to keep Team A, and team C alive...which make it easier for Team B to do their job)..

[Niddy']

Jack was not loyal, because I defended Miranda
during their blow-out, so her death doesn't surprise me.
[/list]

BURN IN RIGHTEOUS FIRE!

[Delta426]

WInd and Rain wrote...

Playthrough 1: "Crissium", Lvl60 ME1 Import, Femshep Engineer, Ruthless Spacer, played on Insanity

[*]Everyone was loyal except Zaeed because during his side quest she saved the people from burning alive, leaving him to sulk in his own self-serving revenge plans. However, he somehow survives the suicide mission (to her chagrin

Not a very ruthless decision to make...
Google and forum search can answer squaddie deaths

Modifié par Delta426, 28 février 2010 - 08:22 .

[Mnemnosyne]

In playthrough 2, Miranda being disloyal as the fire team leader was likely what got Legion killed. You need a loyal fire team leader. Jacob would have been the right choice, assuming he was loyal, since you were using Garrus in your team.

In 3, Garrus probably died because he's not a proper tech specialist (tech specialists are Tali and Legion, no one else).  Legion's death was because of Jack being disloyal, as you suspected.  Neither of the chosen fire team leaders in this playthrough was the right one for the job either, as Samara and Zaeed aren't good choices for that.

Modifié par Koyasha, 28 février 2010 - 08:27 .

[WInd and Rain]

Delta426 wrote...

Not a very ruthless decision to make...

So true... I think she softened up a lot, got in touch with her soul, after ME1 and by the end of ME2 her Paragon was way over her Renegade. Interesting how things play out.

She hated Zaeed, that was for sure. She didn't want him back on the ship and was sorry he lived through the mission.

[IRMcGhee]

On your third game Garrus died because he's not a Tech, and Legion died because your biotic wasn't loyal. Zaeed's too much of a loner to lead well. As the previous poster mentioned, it's important to pick people with the right skills for each role if you want everyone to survive.

[Amethyst Deceiver]

i cant belive theres STILL no sticky regarding endgame.



it is a very specific and very simple math formula to determine who lives and dies.



1. all ship upgrades mandatory

2. all loyalties mandatory for specialist roles and final squadmates.



3. tech specialist can only be legion or tali

4. fireteam leaders can only be miranda jacob and garrus

5. biotic specialists can only be samara or jack

6. rear guard party must have defenders (garrus, grunt, zaeed) holding the line

7. final squad selection requires loyalty



if you deviate at all from this formula, expect casualties.

[WInd and Rain]

Koyasha wrote...

In playthrough 2, Miranda being disloyal as the fire team leader was likely what got Legion killed. You need a loyal fire team leader. Jacob would have been the right choice, assuming he was loyal, since you were using Garrus in your team.

In 3, Garrus probably died because he's not a proper tech specialist (tech specialists are Tali and Legion, no one else).  Legion's death was because of Jack being disloyal, as you suspected.  Neither of the chosen fire team leaders in this playthrough was the right one for the job either, as Samara and Zaeed aren't good choices for that.

Very interesting. In playthrough 1, Zaeed was not loyal, but he lives... but then again I didn't put him in charge of anything. So I'll bet that's a factor in his death in playthrough 3.

Samara actually survives as the fire team leader in playthrough 3... when I picked her Miranda says "Excellent choice". She was loyal and had the "years of experience", so maybe she's alright in that role. Zaeed... I wonder if he'd live through it if he were loyal, considering his veteran status.

The fact that Legion dies due to the poor choice in placing disloyal Jack as the biotic spec during the "bubble march" blows me away in regards to the layered consequences of your decisions in this game, and how thorough the writers are about it.

[Amethyst Deceiver]

WInd and Rain wrote...

Samara actually survives as the fire team leader in playthrough 3... when I picked her Miranda says "Excellent choice". She was loyal and had the "years of experience", so maybe she's alright in that role. Zaeed... I wonder if he'd live through it if he were loyal, considering his veteran status.

pretty sure that was luck. ive had samara survive that role before (trying to get her killed purposefully). but not always.

miranda's judgement isnt exactly the best so dont trust what she says. remember she said, "any biotic could do it (bio-bubble)", including herself... which is obviously untrue

[WInd and Rain]

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

i cant belive theres STILL no sticky regarding endgame.

it is a very specific and very simple math formula to determine who lives and dies.

1. all ship upgrades mandatory
2. all loyalties mandatory for specialist roles and final squadmates.

3. tech specialist can only be legion or tali
4. fireteam leaders can only be miranda jacob and garrus
5. biotic specialists can only be samara or jack
6. rear guard party must have defenders (garrus, grunt, zaeed) holding the line
7. final squad selection requires loyalty

if you deviate at all from this formula, expect casualties.

I totally see what you're saying and this is at the core of my question... is it just math, or is there more going on? However I know it can't be this cut and dry... For instance, in my first playthrough, I had Thane as my tech specialist... THANE??? What was I thinking? As this was my first time ever playing, I was just going on "well, he's thin, he can fit in the ducts... and he's an assassin so he's quiet and all..." so I picked him. Obviously this is stupid, but he survives alongside everyone else.

In playthrough 3 I had Samara as the first fire team leader and she makes it out just fine. So I'm just seeing all these floating variables. I agree that loyalty definitely makes a huge difference and if there's any takeaway it's this: don't put a disloyal ally in charge of ANYTHING. :B

[Mnemnosyne]

WInd and Rain wrote...

Very interesting. In playthrough 1, Zaeed was not loyal, but he lives... but then again I didn't put him in charge of anything. So I'll bet that's a factor in his death in playthrough 3.

Samara actually survives as the fire team leader in playthrough 3... when I picked her Miranda says "Excellent choice". She was loyal and had the "years of experience", so maybe she's alright in that role. Zaeed... I wonder if he'd live through it if he were loyal, considering his veteran status.

The fact that Legion dies due to the poor choice in placing disloyal Jack as the biotic spec during the "bubble march" blows me away in regards to the layered consequences of your decisions in this game, and how thorough the writers are about it.

Yeah, Samara surviving fire team leader is pretty much luck - also, the fire team leader in that section doesn't necessarily die themselves even if they're wrong for the job - their being wrong can simply cause the tech specialist to die, too.

I don't believe any of the choices are guaranteed to get anyone killed, especially anyone in particular.  Take your first playthrough where you used Thane as tech specialist - somehow nobody got killed because of that, even though most people seem to think that using anyone except a loyal Legion or Tali will automatically get them killed.  So there's probably a very high chance of getting someone killed with certain bad decisions, but not 100%.

Zaeed survived the first while disloyal simply because he didn't participate in any parts where he was likely to die.  You didn't use him for anything, which means the only place he's likely to die is holding the line, and at that point he had the support of the entire (presumably mostly loyal if everyone survived) squad, AND he's particularly good at holding the line, whether he's loyal or not.  If you had taken him with you to the final fight, he almost certainly would have died - disloyal members on the final fight almost always die.

[Amethyst Deceiver]

its not a binary result (on/off)

its a percentage based result.

obviously wrong choices result in low percentage survival rate (but still greater than 0%), and good choices result in high percentage (maybe 100%). loyalty may boost the percentage amount.

not all squaddies require loyalty. only the specialists do.

Modifié par Amethyst Deceiver, 28 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[WInd and Rain]

Thanks for the feedback everyone... interesting stuff to consider.

[Veen130]

OK, to get everyone through alive you need to do the following things. Also make sure you have EVERYONE'S loyalty to give a big advantage for everyone coming out alive.

- Upgrade the guns, armour and shields for the Normandy, everyone of them you don't upgrade will get someone killed.
- Next you need a good tech specialist for the vents. Send either Tali or Legion. However no matter who you send, they will die if you don't have a good leader for the distraction team.
- For the distraction team, you need to send either Miranda, Jacob, Garrus or Zaeed.
- Send Jack or Samara/Morinth to create the biotic shield.
- To lead the fire team, send Miranda, Jacob or Garrus.
- Send anyone you want back with the crew. I recommend sending either Tali or Mordin, thier the softer squadies and ul need the tougher ones for latter.
- To "Hold the line" near the end, ul need the big bad squadies. For your squad, take anyone you want with you but its recommended you leave behind tough squad members like Grunt, Garrus, Legion etc.

If anyone with you doesn't have loyalty, do not give them a job. They wont survive it or will fail it and end up getting someone else killed.

Modifié par Veen130, 28 février 2010 - 09:15 .

[Vanth]

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

i cant belive theres STILL no sticky regarding endgame.

it is a very specific and very simple math formula to determine who lives and dies.

That isn't true. In my second playthrough (on hardcore) I have all upgrades, everyone loyal, used Legion for the vents and Miranda to lead the other team (both times), with Jack for the sheild. Sent Thane back with the crew. But still Mordin died (even though he was loyal).

So it is not as simple as some people make out.

[Mister_Tez]

Jethart wrote...


That isn't true. In my second playthrough (on hardcore) I have all upgrades, everyone loyal, used Legion for the vents and Miranda to lead the other team (both times), with Jack for the sheild. Sent Thane back with the crew. But still Mordin died (even though he was loyal).

So it is not as simple as some people make out.

Mordin would have been better off as the Escort, or in your final squad. He has the lowest chance of surving the "Hold.The.Line" section.

Who was in your final squad? Did you have any of the tanks with you who would have been better at the door Holding The Line? (Garrus, Zaeed, Grunt)