146 réponses à ce sujet

[beancounter501]

soteria wrote...

It doesn't take a DPS meter or end-game damage readout to know DW warriors will deal more damage... all you need to do is compare how quickly you kill certain enemies from two playthroughs.

That is true if you are going solo.  Or you have the exact same party.  But I seem to remember the devs mentioning used that method to balance out the different classes.

To be honest I never get why everyone is so focused on single target DPS.  The vast majority of fights are hordes of weak critters, not single fights.  The AOE attacks are where it is at.  And there I think the two hander wins, since Sweep has a 20 second cooldown vs whirlwind having a 40.  But single target I would say the dual weld is stronger.

[jsachun]

beancounter501 wrote...

soteria wrote...

It doesn't take a DPS meter or end-game damage readout to know DW warriors will deal more damage... all you need to do is compare how quickly you kill certain enemies from two playthroughs.

That is true if you are going solo.  Or you have the exact same party.  But I seem to remember the devs mentioning used that method to balance out the different classes.

To be honest I never get why everyone is so focused on single target DPS.  The vast majority of fights are hordes of weak critters, not single fights.  The AOE attacks are where it is at.  And there I think the two hander wins, since Sweep has a 20 second cooldown vs whirlwind having a 40.  But single target I would say the dual weld is stronger.

Except DW has DW Sweep as well for AoE so DW wins. Thats DW Sweep Plus Whirlwind & Two hander only have Sweep.

You should really play both if you haven't, before you make comparisons.

Modifié par jsachun, 06 mars 2010 - 12:47 .

[beancounter501]

LOL, I have played every single warrior class.



DW Sweep is so-so. It is outclassed by both Whirlwind and 2 Hand Sweep. By a mile. I will take 2 Hand Sweep every 20 seconds over DW Sweep + Whirlwind.

[Yrkoon]

^not to mention that 2-handed sweep's AOE is larger.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 06 mars 2010 - 01:06 .

[jsachun]

beancounter501 wrote...

LOL, I have played every single warrior class.

DW Sweep is so-so. It is outclassed by both Whirlwind and 2 Hand Sweep. By a mile. I will take 2 Hand Sweep every 20 seconds over DW Sweep + Whirlwind.

4 to 2 low lvl enemies falling with one sweep is not bad at all. Although Two hand sweep has knockback, I don't really think it comes into play when at high lvl most low lvl enemies will fall with one strike. Also take into account DW sweep & Whirlwind is executed much quicker than the TH sweep, I'd say DW will greater AOE than TH anytime. 

Modifié par jsachun, 06 mars 2010 - 01:20 .

[beancounter501]

DW Sweep is not as good because the majority of hits are with a single weapon. Only 1 or 2 people directly infront of you get hit by both. Plus it is not a 360 attack like 2 Hand.



Don't get me wrong, it is still good. But not even remotely as good as two hand sweep. Nothing like being surround by 4 or 5 critters, activate perfect striking and then sweep. Easy 500 to 600 points of total damage. And you can do it every 20 seconds.

[jsachun]

beancounter501 wrote...

DW Sweep is not as good because the majority of hits are with a single weapon. Only 1 or 2 people directly infront of you get hit by both. Plus it is not a 360 attack like 2 Hand.

Don't get me wrong, it is still good. But not even remotely as good as two hand sweep. Nothing like being surround by 4 or 5 critters, activate perfect striking and then sweep. Easy 500 to 600 points of total damage. And you can do it every 20 seconds.

Well, I've played both at about the same spec, & DW won out so I'll have to stick with DW.

[Yrkoon]

jsachun wrote...


Well, I've played both at about the same spec, & DW won out so I'll have to stick with DW.

Ok, first off, stop pretending that the people you're discussing this with haven't  ALSO  played both--and several times.



Second,  who specs their 2-hander the same as their dual-wielder?  I certainly don't.   I strength build my two-handers, while Dex-Str building my dualwielders.  Which makes for Hugely different specs.   What truly differenciates 2-h sweep from whirlwind is that the former deals  str-built Massive  2-handed damage to all the surrounding mobs, while the latter doesn't, due to the way you HAVE to build a dual-wielder.    Whirlwind requires an un-buffed 30 dexterity,  That's a bunch of  stat points that won't be going into strength  ie. lots of extra damage that you won't be  inflicting with your whirlwind.  It also requires that you use one-handed weapons - which don't do as much damage as 2-handed weapons.

So no.   Unless you intentionally gimp your two-hander, there's no way  your Dualwielder will be doing  more damage with whirlwind than your two-hander does with his 2-handed sweep.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 06 mars 2010 - 03:58 .

[soteria]

I prefer DW Sweep + Whirlwind to 2h sweep for damage because as cool as knocking everyone down is, sometimes the effect can actually be detrimental to killing a tightly-packed crowd. Plus, DW Sweep and Whirlwind use both weapons, more or less negating the damage advantage of a 2h weapon, and if you use daggers, the dexterity isn't wasted at all.

[jsachun]

DWs are the most graceful killing machines. Besides THs won't even beat archers at the greatest damage hit so I think they are the weakest warrior build as the shields are a better purposed tank than a TH.

Modifié par jsachun, 06 mars 2010 - 08:17 .

[Yrkoon]

While I probably shouldn't justify such a moronically childish post with a response, I'll do it anyway.

First, I don't choose warrior builds based on how "graceful" they are lol

Second, when it comes to greatest damage dealt  NO warrior type beats an archer using arrow of slaying.   No warrior type even comes close.  And that includes dual-wielders,  so really, you're doing nothing here but shamelessly changing the subject.

Edit:  And here, have a screenshot!

This is what happens  to  a Dualwielder  who takes on a *real* warrior:



Damn!   lol

Modifié par Yrkoon, 06 mars 2010 - 08:26 .

[jsachun]

Yrkoon wrote...

While I probably shouldn't justify such a moronically childish post with a response, I'll do it anyway.

First, I don't choose warrior builds based on how "graceful" they are lol

Second, when it comes to greatest damage dealt  NO warrior type beats an archer using arrow of slaying.   No warrior type even comes close.  And that includes dual-wielders,  so really, you're doing nothing here but shamelessly changing the subject.

Well, I'm sorry but your stats just don't add up. My archer even ended up with more damage dealt  than your TH. Your AoE argument for TH sweep just don't do you any justice here. And bear in mind none of my warrior builds are 'optimum' builds. So if your building your TH just for damage you should be beating all by builds interms of damage dealt.

Modifié par jsachun, 06 mars 2010 - 08:25 .

[Yrkoon]

jsachun wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

While I probably shouldn't justify such a moronically childish post with a response, I'll do it anyway.

First, I don't choose warrior builds based on how "graceful" they are lol

Second, when it comes to greatest damage dealt  NO warrior type beats an archer using arrow of slaying.   No warrior type even comes close.  And that includes dual-wielders,  so really, you're doing nothing here but shamelessly changing the subject.

Well, I'm sorry but your stats just don't add up. My archer even ended up with more damage dealt  than your TH. .

Yeah, that happens.  We weren't comparing archers with two-handers, were we, mr. subject changer..

Modifié par Yrkoon, 06 mars 2010 - 08:29 .

[soteria]

Yeah, that happens. We weren't comparing archers with two-handers, were we, mr. subject changer?.

I think he's saying that if archers are the weakest warrior build, and they can still deal more damage overall than your pure-strength 2h warrior, then where does that leave 2h warriors in terms of damage?

[jsachun]

Yrkoon wrote...

While I probably shouldn't justify such a moronically childish post with a response, I'll do it anyway.

First, I don't choose warrior builds based on how "graceful" they are lol

Second, when it comes to greatest damage dealt  NO warrior type beats an archer using arrow of slaying.   No warrior type even comes close.  And that includes dual-wielders,  so really, you're doing nothing here but shamelessly changing the subject.

Edit:  And here, have a screenshot!

This is what happens  to  a Dualwielder  who takes on a *real* warrior:



Damn!   lol

What, you don't have enoungh strength to hold two of them? Is that it?

Modifié par jsachun, 06 mars 2010 - 08:43 .

[Yrkoon]

soteria wrote...

Yeah, that happens. We weren't comparing archers with two-handers, were we, mr. subject changer?.

I think he's saying that if archers are the weakest warrior build, and they can still deal more damage overall than your pure-strength 2h warrior, then where does that leave 2h warriors in terms of damage?

No, that's not it.  And when did we establish that archers were the weakest warrior build?

[Yrkoon]

jsachun wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...



Edit:  And here, have a screenshot!

This is what happens  to  a Dualwielder  who takes on a *real* warrior:



Damn!   lol

What, you don't have enoungh strength to hold two of them? Is that it?

Heh,  well, at least he's strong enough to hold on to his own HEAD.   Can't say the same for that  poor dualwielder, can we.

[jsachun]

A true warrior without a soul. DW with Battle Axes & great swords. Does Diablo Barbarian class weaken TH in DA:O or what?

Modifié par jsachun, 06 mars 2010 - 08:57 .

[soteria]

Yrkoon wrote...

soteria wrote...

Yeah, that happens. We weren't comparing archers with two-handers, were we, mr. subject changer?.

I think he's saying that if archers are the weakest warrior build, and they can still deal more damage overall than your pure-strength 2h warrior, then where does that leave 2h warriors in terms of damage?

No, that's not it.  And when did we establish that archers were the weakest warrior build?

At the risk of derailing the thread, isn't it kinda obvious?  No access to poisons or mage weapon buffs, no runes, specials that take several times as long to use as regular attacks, a fully invested archer deals no more damage auto-attacking than any character with Rapid Aim, it's normal for enemies to have higher defense vs missile weapons... do I need to go on? 

And, if he's not making that point, then I'll make it now.  I didn't bother checking to see if his archer really did outdamage your warrior, but if he did, then again, where does that leave your warrior?  Unless of course the stat is basically meaningless in the first place.

Modifié par soteria, 06 mars 2010 - 09:04 .

[Yrkoon]

soteria wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

soteria wrote...

Yeah, that happens. We weren't comparing archers with two-handers, were we, mr. subject changer?.

I think he's saying that if archers are the weakest warrior build, and they can still deal more damage overall than your pure-strength 2h warrior, then where does that leave 2h warriors in terms of damage?

No, that's not it.  And when did we establish that archers were the weakest warrior build?

At the risk of derailing the thread, isn't it kinda obvious?  No access to poisons or mage weapon buffs, no runes, specials that take several times as long to use as regular attacks, a fully invested archer deals no more damage auto-attacking than any character with Rapid Aim, it's normal for enemies to have higher defense vs missile weapons... do I need to go on? 

And, if he's not making that point, then I'll make it now.  I didn't bother checking to see if his archer really did outdamage your warrior, but if he did, then again, where does that leave your warrior?

It leaves my  warrior without Arrow of Slaying to add  another  800-1000 damage per encounter to his totals.

Jesus.

And besides, depending on playstyle, an archer can rival a mage in  total damage.... If one's strategy is to  whittle down  enemies at a distance, while they're stuck in a grease, or a   Blizzard

Modifié par Yrkoon, 06 mars 2010 - 09:10 .

[beancounter501]

LOL, that deathblow picture made me laugh.



@soteria - keep in mind that DW sweep is only a 180 degree attack radius and only mobs standing in the center 100 degrees get hit with both weapons. Otherwise they only get hit by one. Whirlwind is much better, comparable in damage to 2 Hand Sweep since both weapons are used. But, it has double the cooldown. Also, I really do not follow the knockdown bit. A knockdown is a free hit for every melee toon in your party. 2 Hand sweep is one of the best activated warrior talents in the game. Probably the best.

[soteria]

@soteria - keep in mind that DW sweep is only a 180 degree attack radius and only mobs standing in the center 100 degrees get hit with both weapons. Otherwise they only get hit by one. Whirlwind is much better, comparable in damage to 2 Hand Sweep since both weapons are used. But, it has double the cooldown. Also, I really do not follow the knockdown bit. A knockdown is a free hit for every melee toon in your party. 2 Hand sweep is one of the best activated warrior talents in the game. Probably the best.

I usually don't have any trouble at all hitting 4+ enemies with dw sweep. I think the animation is faster, too, which can make a difference. As for the knockback effect of 2h sweep, it's a good CC ability but for DPS it's not as good because it knocks enemies out of range. If I have a nice tight group of enemies, I can use dw sweep and whirlwind and grenades, but as soon as I hit 2h sweep, I'm effectively done using aoe attacks. So while two dw warriors can use their aoe abilities together, two 2h warriors can't.

[Axekix]

Comparing total damage scores is flawed. It depends entirely upon your party makeup, or lack there of...

For example, parties that focus on shattering combos will score lower on total damage, despite the fact that they actually kill much faster.

At any rate, I'd definitely place 2h sweep above Whirlwind/DW sweep for the KD utility alone. 2H champions can completely control mob placement on the battlefied, which lets you peel mobs off your squishies easily and can make lining up CC/AE effects go much smoother.

And we're getting another AE sweep attack in awakenings! GG.

Modifié par Axekix, 06 mars 2010 - 09:55 .

[jsachun]

Axekix wrote...

Comparing total damage scores is flawed. It depends entirely upon your party makeup, or lack there of...

For example, parties that focus on shattering combos will score lower on total damage, despite the fact that they actually kill much faster.

At any rate, I'd definitely place 2h sweep above Whirlwind/DW sweep for the KD utility alone. 2H champions can completely control mob placement on the battlefied, which lets you peel mobs off your squishies easily and can make lining up CC/AE effects go much smoother.

And we're getting another AE sweep attack in awakenings! GG.

TH are about sizes of their sword matching sizes of their egos. You'd think you do more damage because of your weapon & not because of your talent.

Modifié par jsachun, 06 mars 2010 - 10:23 .

[Yrkoon]

jsachun wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Comparing total damage scores is flawed. It depends entirely upon your party makeup, or lack there of...

For example, parties that focus on shattering combos will score lower on total damage, despite the fact that they actually kill much faster.

At any rate, I'd definitely place 2h sweep above Whirlwind/DW sweep for the KD utility alone. 2H champions can completely control mob placement on the battlefied, which lets you peel mobs off your squishies easily and can make lining up CC/AE effects go much smoother.

And we're getting another AE sweep attack in awakenings! GG.

TH are about sizes of their sword matching sizes of their egos. You'd think you do more damage because of your weapon & not because of your talent.

Yay! Witty oneliners now.  And lets talk about the  personality traits of the warrior, instead of countering with anything even remotely resembling substance.

I can do that too.  Here goes.     If it wasn't for  the obnoxiously overhyped Drizzt Do'Urden,  there'd be no such thing as Dual-wielders in computer games, since   Bioware  wouldn't be trying to cater to  millions of geeky  "i-wanna-be-like-Drizzt!" gamers.  


How's that?

 Oh, By the way,   Those who think they do more damage because of their weapons, than because of their talents are RIGHT.  If you disagree, then by all means.  Go barehanded.  You can dual-wield your fists.  Shale does.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 06 mars 2010 - 10:43 .