146 réponses à ce sujet

[jsachun]

Yrkoon wrote...

jsachun wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Comparing total damage scores is flawed. It depends entirely upon your party makeup, or lack there of...

For example, parties that focus on shattering combos will score lower on total damage, despite the fact that they actually kill much faster.

At any rate, I'd definitely place 2h sweep above Whirlwind/DW sweep for the KD utility alone. 2H champions can completely control mob placement on the battlefied, which lets you peel mobs off your squishies easily and can make lining up CC/AE effects go much smoother.

And we're getting another AE sweep attack in awakenings! GG.

TH are about sizes of their sword matching sizes of their egos. You'd think you do more damage because of your weapon & not because of your talent.

Yay, witty oneliners, now.  And lets talk about the  personality traits of the warrior, instead of countering with anything even remotely resembling substance.

I can do that too.  Here goes.     If it wasn't for  the obnoxiously overhyped Drizzt Do'Urden,  there'd be no such thing as Dual-wielders in computer games, since   Bioware  wouldn't be trying to cater to  millions of geeky  "i-wanna-be-like-Drizzt!" gamers.   .


How's that?

 Oh, By the way,   Those who think they do more damage because of their weapons, than because of their talents are RIGHT.  If you disagree, then by all means. try  Riposting someone with your  bare hands.

So  you'd agree a DW with two great swords would do more damage than a two hander with one. Besides holding a lance upright with one hand would be lot more difficult task than holding a great maul with two.

Modifié par jsachun, 06 mars 2010 - 10:44 .

[Yrkoon]

jsachun wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

jsachun wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Comparing total damage scores is flawed. It depends entirely upon your party makeup, or lack there of...

For example, parties that focus on shattering combos will score lower on total damage, despite the fact that they actually kill much faster.

At any rate, I'd definitely place 2h sweep above Whirlwind/DW sweep for the KD utility alone. 2H champions can completely control mob placement on the battlefied, which lets you peel mobs off your squishies easily and can make lining up CC/AE effects go much smoother.

And we're getting another AE sweep attack in awakenings! GG.

TH are about sizes of their sword matching sizes of their egos. You'd think you do more damage because of your weapon & not because of your talent.

Yay, witty oneliners, now.  And lets talk about the  personality traits of the warrior, instead of countering with anything even remotely resembling substance.

I can do that too.  Here goes.     If it wasn't for  the obnoxiously overhyped Drizzt Do'Urden,  there'd be no such thing as Dual-wielders in computer games, since   Bioware  wouldn't be trying to cater to  millions of geeky  "i-wanna-be-like-Drizzt!" gamers.   .


How's that?

 Oh, By the way,   Those who think they do more damage because of their weapons, than because of their talents are RIGHT.  If you disagree, then by all means. try  Riposting someone with your  bare hands.

So  you'd agree a DW with two great swords would do more damage than a two hander with one.

No, it wouldn't.   It doesn't in ANY game that allows you to dual-wield two-handed weapons.

Not sure what you're smoking.

[jsachun]

Yrkoon wrote...

jsachun wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

jsachun wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Comparing total damage scores is flawed. It depends entirely upon your party makeup, or lack there of...

For example, parties that focus on shattering combos will score lower on total damage, despite the fact that they actually kill much faster.

At any rate, I'd definitely place 2h sweep above Whirlwind/DW sweep for the KD utility alone. 2H champions can completely control mob placement on the battlefied, which lets you peel mobs off your squishies easily and can make lining up CC/AE effects go much smoother.

And we're getting another AE sweep attack in awakenings! GG.

TH are about sizes of their sword matching sizes of their egos. You'd think you do more damage because of your weapon & not because of your talent.

Yay, witty oneliners, now.  And lets talk about the  personality traits of the warrior, instead of countering with anything even remotely resembling substance.

I can do that too.  Here goes.     If it wasn't for  the obnoxiously overhyped Drizzt Do'Urden,  there'd be no such thing as Dual-wielders in computer games, since   Bioware  wouldn't be trying to cater to  millions of geeky  "i-wanna-be-like-Drizzt!" gamers.   .


How's that?

 Oh, By the way,   Those who think they do more damage because of their weapons, than because of their talents are RIGHT.  If you disagree, then by all means. try  Riposting someone with your  bare hands.

So  you'd agree a DW with two great swords would do more damage than a two hander with one.

No, it wouldn't.   It doesn't in ANY game that allows you to dual-wield two-handed weapons.

Not sure what you're smoking.

Diablo 2 does.

http://diablo.wikia....i/Sword_Mastery

Check this link if you don't believe it.

Modifié par jsachun, 06 mars 2010 - 10:59 .

[soteria]

I have to say, this thread has really devolved, and it wasn't that great to start with.

[Yrkoon]

Can you just... go away  already?   Your stream-of-consciousness  is  beginning to bore me.  Your link doesn't show the damage differences between dualwielding and non-dual wielding. And this isn't the diablo boards anyway.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 06 mars 2010 - 11:07 .

[jsachun]

Yrkoon wrote...

Can you just... go away  already?   Your stream-of-consciousness  is  beginning to bore me.  Your link doesn't show the damage differences between dualwielding and non-dual wielding. And this isn't the diablo boards anyway.

Your the one who's making sweeping statements or is that general trait of your TH? Any idiot would work out 1+1=2. I don't know what category of people you fall under but it seems your blinded by foolish faith. 

Modifié par jsachun, 06 mars 2010 - 11:10 .

[Yrkoon]

jsachun wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Can you just... go away  already?   Your stream-of-consciousness  is  beginning to bore me.  Your link doesn't show the damage differences between dualwielding and non-dual wielding. And this isn't the diablo boards anyway.

Your the one who's making sweeping statements or is that general trait of your TH?

It's a general trait  of 2-handers.  They're really good at sweeping.   Better  at it than dual-wielders.  While you were off pondering about Diablo2, we were busy here discussing that fact.

LOL

[jsachun]

Yrkoon wrote...

jsachun wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Can you just... go away  already?   Your stream-of-consciousness  is  beginning to bore me.  Your link doesn't show the damage differences between dualwielding and non-dual wielding. And this isn't the diablo boards anyway.

Your the one who's making sweeping statements or is that general trait of your TH?

It's a general trait  of 2-handers.  They're really good at sweeping.   Better  at it than dual-wielders.  While you were off pondering about Diablo2, we were busy here discussing that fact.

LOL

Well, prove it? All we see is your statements & stats that contradict.

Modifié par jsachun, 06 mars 2010 - 11:13 .

[Axekix]

soteria wrote...

I have to say, this thread has really devolved, and it wasn't that great to start with.

It certainly seems that way.

[Timortis]

Ignore trolls people.

I'll agree with Soteria that the knockdown of 2H Sweep can be detrimental if you want to keep mobs packed tightly for multiple AoEs.

However, in terms of damage based on my experience soloing with 2 DW Warriors and one 2 Hander, I don't think DWers do that much more damage, I'm not even sure they do more at all.

In fact, my kill order for melee enemies when I'm soloing is: 2 Handers first, Sword and Shield next, DWers last. The reason is because 2 Handers do the most damage to me as a player, I've experienced this again and again, Sword and Shield wielders are second highest and they have the annoying Shield Pummel so they're next, and DWers I can absolutely ignore, until I've killed everything else.

Especially against characters with high armor, DWers are weaker. If you're doing 2 hits for 60 damage each every second against a character with 20 armor, he takes a total of 80 damage, if you hit the same guy with a 2H once for 120 damage, he takes 100. This is ignoring the fact that DWers don't even have their own armor debuffs.

Where DWers shine is in party settings with added damage from multiple buffs and lots of runes etc. But they also don't have the utility of 2H and they get knocked on their ass and stunned all the time.

Modifié par Timortis, 07 mars 2010 - 12:42 .

[Random70]

^ Yep

[soteria]

I don't know if soloing gives you a different or better perspective in this case, but my kill order is different. Excepting elites, which die either first or last depending on the situation, I kill dw first, then 2h, then s&s, although it depends on my group makeup, too. If I have a rogue, that's how I do it--2h and s&s warriors take significantly longer to kill because of indomitable and flanking immunity.



Other than that, I don't know... without a combat log I'm wary of saying definitively which enemy type is dealing the most damage over time. Here's a fairly simple way to test this, Timortis, if you has a save near a boss with a lot of hit points like Ser Cauthrien or Branka. Only one save would be needed with the respec mod, assuming you have the appropriate gear. My PC is unavailable for the next while and I can't do it.



Short of a test everyone could agree on, I think this argument could go on for some time since most of our measurements are so subjective.

[Axekix]

A bit late for tests, no? With the expansion a week away and new skills/specs to choose from all this could be moot... unless you plan to keep replaying DAO that is!

[beancounter501]

Very true Soteria. And I would agree with Timortis that Two Hand enemies seem to be more dangerous then dual weld. Probably because dual weld are much more gear dependent. Take away all of the +5 runes and the value of DW starts to drop really fast. Two hand is much more stat focused.

But that is a gripe with all Bioware games, they have not been able to balance weapon buffs - ever. BG2 had dualing Daystar + Celestial Fury, Kotor 1/2 had two sabers with a ton of crystals, NWN had plenty of overpowered gear to dual weld (Ugh the Divine Might Dual builds) and Dragon Age is no exception. Like it or not someone in Bioware mgmt is a Drizzit fan!

Modifié par beancounter501, 07 mars 2010 - 01:45 .

[jsachun]

Ser Cauth. is a walkover, without all her archers shooting Scattershot. Have you ever had 2 or 3 DW rogue backstabing you at the same time?

Modifié par jsachun, 07 mars 2010 - 01:49 .

[soteria]

Beancounter, you have to be the most polite person I've ever had the pleasure of arguing with online.

A bit late for tests, no? With the expansion a week away and new skills/specs to choose from all this could be moot... unless you plan to keep replaying DAO that is!

If it's not worth spending 10-15 minutes testing, then why did we (well, not really we, but...) spend 5 pages and 7 days arguing about it?

Modifié par soteria, 07 mars 2010 - 02:14 .

[Axekix]

Because arguing over the internet is extremely cool.



No actually I'm kinda interested in seeing the results, although either way it will still be limited by the gear options of DAO (ie the best 2h being a maul, no tier 7 greatswords/axes with comparable stats...The Rose's Thorn, a dagger, being far and away the best 1h weapon in the game). And considering how close DAA is, I don't think the implications will hold much baring either way at this point.

[beancounter501]

Ha, ha. No doubt I like to argue - just ask my wife. She may disagree with the polite thing though! But anyway, I am too old to trade insults over a game. I really enjoy the theory craft in games. I am a programmer at work, so I enjoy picking apart the mechanics of games. Much more interesting then looking at some inventory calculation.



Sigh! One day all of you college/high school/junior high school students will learn that you're free time will drop to nothing once working full time. Throw in a two year old and you are happy to play for a couple of hours a week! Much easier to sneak a couple of posts on line at work then actually play the game!

[soteria]

Hey now, we middle-schoolers have a lot more homework than you old fogies had! And zits!

[Timortis]

Here's some unscientific testing:



Level 23 Rogue, removed some items and turned off Dueling to lower defense some, so I'd get hit more often, but not so much that I'd die too quickly to notice a difference.



Stats:



Armor: 37

Defense: 136



Time it took for Hurlock General Boss with 2 Hander to kill me: 15 seconds, including the couple of seconds he lost doing a Warcry and Rally



Time it took for Genlock Assassin Master with 4 minions to kill me 34 seconds.

[Timortis]

Another test, same Rogue against Elite Darkspawn in the room right before the Assassin Master. There are 3 Elites here, one is a 2H, one S&S and one DW Axes. I tested by killing 2 of them, healing to full with a potion, then unequipping weapons and auto-attacking to see how long it would take for me to die. Removed more items to make my defense even lower, because they were having trouble hitting me.



Armor: 33



Defense: 123



Time it took for Hurlock Elite with 2H to kill me: 30 seconds



Time it took for Genlock Elite DW Axes to kill me: 53 seconds

[Random70]

Thx for the data...

I find the results unsurprising, actually. Lacking runes/poisons, too much of the DW's damage is stopped by AC. As a point of curiosity, did the 2Hers in either encounter hit you with Sunder Armor?

[Timortis]

I think they did, but I can't say for sure. I was a little distracted trying to time everything with a stopwatch. Like I said before, this matches my previous experience finding 2H enemies were bigger threats for me.

Modifié par Timortis, 07 mars 2010 - 03:43 .

[Random70]

Random70 wrote...

^ Yep

In order to advance the discussion I'll expand a bit on this incredibly verbose response....

Targeting Priorities as a:

DEX Rogue (med ac / high def)
1) 2H - If I delay on these guys, they'll activate Indomitable rendering my stun attacks useless. In addition, if I wait too long to kill them, they have the ultra annoying habit of lighting up Perfect Striking which will cut through any defense.
2) S/S - Shield Pummel
3) DW - Unless stunned, these guys can't touch me

2H Warrior (high ac / low defense)
1) 2H - My ac is a big part of what's keeping me alive and they love to Sunder Armor. They also hit like a damn Sheman tank.
2) DW - My ac blocks much of the damage but it still adds up, especially if momentum'd. Being Crippled is annoying
3) S/S - They have no debuffs and I'm immune to all of their stun / knockdowns

[Axekix]

Timortis wrote...

Another test, same Rogue against Elite Darkspawn in the room right before the Assassin Master. There are 3 Elites here, one is a 2H, one S&S and one DW Axes. I tested by killing 2 of them, healing to full with a potion, then unequipping weapons and auto-attacking to see how long it would take for me to die. Removed more items to make my defense even lower, because they were having trouble hitting me.

Armor: 33

Defense: 123

Time it took for Hurlock Elite with 2H to kill me: 30 seconds

Time it took for Genlock Elite DW Axes to kill me: 53 seconds

I think your def score is weighting the results in 2h's favor considering Mighty Blow and Crit Strike have +10/+5 attack bonuses attatched (and both of those can potentially stun opening you to extra hits).  Pommel also ignores def completely.

AFAIK the only dual wield skill with an attack bonus is Cripple, right?  I know Crip debuffs defense but only if you fail the phys resist check, no?

Still, interesting test!