146 réponses à ce sujet

[Timortis]

I think Punisher has an attack bonus too. Regardless, I can say with certainty that both DWers successfully hit me with Punisher and Cripple. The problem is this, my armor removes over 30 damage from each one of their hits, when they're hitting for 40-50 damage a piece, that's a huge part of their damage. The 2Hers hit much harder, and have an armor debuff to boot.

Modifié par Timortis, 07 mars 2010 - 06:15 .

[Axekix]

Indeed. I'm not disagreeing btw, I'm on the 2h side of the fence.

I am point out however that 2h's disabling skills and attack bonuses make them more apt for cutting through high def, before even taking the higher single swing damage or Sunder/Destroyer/2h Strength(hidden 25% ArP) into account vs armor.

I've always wondered why 2h is sooo underrated on these boards.

Modifié par Axekix, 07 mars 2010 - 06:42 .

[jsachun]

I think you all forget cunning contributes to Armor penetration & armor penetration is capped at 41 in DA:O. So if you have a decent cunning score your armor score of 30 would almost be zilch. Besides you can't test a Longsword DW unless you play as one & They are certainly the highest overall damagers in the game.

Modifié par jsachun, 07 mars 2010 - 06:49 .

[Axekix]

If I recall it's something like 7 cunning equals 1 armor pen, no?

So, with an endgame score of 70-80 cunning you're only getting around 10-11 bonus armor pen. 2H can Sunder for 20, proc Destroyer for another 5 and has a passive 25% ignore that doesn't display on the character sheet from Two-Handed Strength.

Modifié par Axekix, 07 mars 2010 - 08:10 .

[beancounter501]

Right on about Sunder Armor and Two Hand Strength. Destroyer on the other hand - sucks. Only works on a critical.

[sajahVarel]

yeah but the malus doesn't stack like suppressing fire, so you just need one crit (critical strike and mighty blow trigger it) and use a killing skill like sunder arms to chop a head.

[beancounter501]

Destroyer beyond sucks. Only triggers on a crit, only debuffs 5 armor and it only lasts for 3 seconds. That equals at most in extra 5 damage on one or two attacks. Almost any talent in the game is better. Except maybe feign death

[mosspit]

beancounter501 wrote...

.... Except maybe feign death

No pls lol. Seriously I agree. Its tier4.

[sajahVarel]

yeah but don't forget a 2H is a weapon of mass destruction, 5 dmg added to the rest of the blow can result in a oneshot (cause generally you're not really far from killing someone with sunder, especially with the chasind maul)... by the way, critical strike is really good in his way, I mean instant kill at 20% hp (generally the guy dies long before going under 20% XD, talk about useless).

[Hahren]

Axekix wrote...

I've always wondered why 2h is sooo underrated on these boards.

Most probably don't play 2h beyond the Korcari Wilds is my guess. The bonus damage from 2h weapons doesn't really become significant until your strength is over 35 (and I'm being generous). The damage gap from a 2h weapon vs a 1h & shield is pretty small in the low levels if you are only watching the white numbers fly above enemies. So for such a slow swing speed you aren't exactly doing double damage (yet). Then I am sure not many folks understand that the Sunder attacks are double swings. Also not many folks seem to like micro managing.

With two-weapon you can go with 2/0/3 and wreck shop! In a world where instant gratification reigns supreme that's a great deal!

DW = small invest, pay off that can begin as early as leaving your origin story.
2h = big investment, late game pay off.

I happen to love the 2h tree, but when I first tried it I found it was hard to make it work. Now that I understand it, and use it in a more active sense I love it. It's easily my favorite weapon style. My current 2h using human noble has been very lucky. I had a steel maul in the Tower of Ishal making the Ogre far easier. Then on my way to my first location after Lothering I get the meteor ore encounter. So I decided to halt my original travel plans, and do Soldier's Peak immediately. Having Starfang at level 8 is a game changer!

[Axekix]

beancounter501 wrote...

Destroyer beyond sucks. Only triggers on a crit, only debuffs 5 armor and it only lasts for 3 seconds. That equals at most in extra 5 damage on one or two attacks. Almost any talent in the game is better. Except maybe feign death

I have to disagree.

Considering it's possible to buff your crit well over 40% with the proper gear, and 2h wars have 2 auto-crit attacks, Destroyer is very reliable.   It's not the make or break skill of the spec, but it's a very nice passive bonus to have and synergizes well with the rest of the tree.  Every 2h war will be taking Sunder Armor anyway, why pass up free damage?

[Yrkoon]

True, but still, I cannotunderstand what justifies it being  tier 4, with the highest level and strength  requirement of any skill in the 2-H tree.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 mars 2010 - 12:49 .

[DodgeMoreLightning]

Destroyer is pretty garbage. You crit and you get one swing with the buff before you'd need to crit again to get one swing again. If Sunder's up, you don't even get that much. The only talents that are of less use are the ones that just don't work.



Let's not overrate Two-Handed weapons here. They're fun, and they're not horrible, but they don't really stack up. However, the rep they have as "beyond useless," is certainly not warranted.

[beancounter501]

Axekix wrote...

beancounter501 wrote...

Destroyer beyond sucks. Only triggers on a crit, only debuffs 5 armor and it only lasts for 3 seconds. That equals at most in extra 5 damage on one or two attacks. Almost any talent in the game is better. Except maybe feign death

I have to disagree.

Considering it's possible to buff your crit well over 40% with the proper gear, and 2h wars have 2 auto-crit attacks, Destroyer is very reliable.   It's not the make or break skill of the spec, but it's a very nice passive bonus to have and synergizes well with the rest of the tree.  Every 2h war will be taking Sunder Armor anyway, why pass up free damage?

What gear are you using to hit a 40% crit rate?

[Swifty]

As a DW weapon rogue fan now playing a 2h I'm gonna wade in here.



It's apples and oranges.



I killed the archdemon with 2 runed *daggers* because I poisoned them, he was continuously paralyzed and I was simply so fast he couldn't hit me. I ran up his back and offed him. Wish I had a screen shot. I felt like I shot the last-minute basket.



That said.



They are two different animals. DW depends on speed and backstabbing. I found whirlwind so useless that I didn't even use it the 50x to get the achievement. 2 weapon sweep bailed me in a few tough fights. 2H is all about crowd control. DW is all about flanking and using your others to control the fight or using bombs/traps to control the crowd.



Now, the *big* one for me is the "indominable". Everybody is flying around like popcorn in a movie theatre and there I am, knocking 'em off their feet in record numbers. With a 2w I let the mage freeze first then go in or flank with a tank.



With the 2h, Shale is getting shoved around like an old sack and I'm still standing there bashing the crap out of the bad guys. I pommel 'em if my health is low and suck back a healie before they can get back on their feet. Anything like an ogre or some tank with a maul?--2h rocks. I'm doing 30% more damage than a golem?



I micromanage my game and they are two totally different styles of play.



It's the difference between dancing and rugby.

[Axekix]

beancounter501 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

beancounter501 wrote...

Destroyer beyond sucks. Only triggers on a crit, only debuffs 5 armor and it only lasts for 3 seconds. That equals at most in extra 5 damage on one or two attacks. Almost any talent in the game is better. Except maybe feign death

I have to disagree.

Considering it's possible to buff your crit well over 40% with the proper gear, and 2h wars have 2 auto-crit attacks, Destroyer is very reliable.   It's not the make or break skill of the spec, but it's a very nice passive bonus to have and synergizes well with the rest of the tree.  Every 2h war will be taking Sunder Armor anyway, why pass up free damage?

What gear are you using to hit a 40% crit rate?

Base 3% crit (bugged in current PC build afaik, though you can fix it with a mod), Precise Striking (10-12 crit at endgame), Bloodthirst (10 crit), Song of Courage/or Bravery (+6 crit),  DLC Belt (+3% crit), Cadash Stompers (+2% crit) and any T6-7 battle axe = 4.8 crit.  Metashear also has +5% crit. 

That comes out to 45.8% actually, though I don't use Cadash atm since I'm wearing the Warden Commander's set.

[beancounter501]

I have never tried to gear my two hander for max crit rate. I will have to pull my guy out of retirement and check it out. A high crit rate would be devastating with a 2 Hander. Not such much because of destroyer, but more for stunning blows. With a 45% crit rate you would have a 22.5% percent chance to stun on any attack. Very nice.

[Allison W]

...So, if I build my two-handed weapon warrior to do my tanking and end up with perhaps close to/at 50 Strength and Constitution, just how horrible is my experience going to be?

[Meliorist13]

My first complete game was with a 2H warrior that I used as my tank. His final with gear stats were:
Str: 54+6 (60)
Dex: 40+4 (44)
Wil: 25+11 (36)
Mag: 13+4 (17)
Cun: 16 +5 (21)
Con: 20+14 (34)

He may not of been optimal, but he sure as hell was fun. Hope that gives you some insight Allison W.

Modifié par Meliorist13, 08 mars 2010 - 11:16 .

[Allison W]

Hrm. Thanks. I might have trouble what with focusing on Constitution over Dexterity, but I'll find some way to make it work.

[Yrkoon]

Allison W wrote...

...So, if I build my two-handed weapon warrior to do my tanking and end up with perhaps close to/at 50 Strength and Constitution, just how horrible is my experience going to be?

It won't be bad at all.  Your health will be pretty high  ( Well over  400 by  level 20.)   And you'll still have enough strength  to wear  the best massive armor in the game, so your armor will be high as well.

  The only real difference is You'll do less damage than a pure strength build, obviously, and your attack score will be lower.  But your goal is to be a tank,  not a  bomb, yes?


Just  an FYI though:   there's a ring in this game that gives you +10 to Constitution.  There's also an amulet that gives +12 to  Constitution.   If you want the best of both worlds, then  I'd suggest finding those two items,  equiping them, then spending the free  level up points on Strength... 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 09 mars 2010 - 12:23 .

[Moogliepie]

Wow, I didn't realize this would get so many replies. When I posted it, I was only at level 9. I just completed the game, and it does indeed get a lot better around level 14 with 2-handed. I also didn't really know how to manage sustainable abilities.