92 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

shinobi602 wrote...

I completely agree with Bioware's assessment.

This. People who disagree are mostly not paying attention to little details and clues about each character nestled in dialogue or background stories.

[Ecael]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Shepard is leading the operation. Therefore he has to directly oversee the team's decisions and he can't do that while being stuck in a vent or using his energy to keep a biotic barrior afloat. Also Shepard is the most important person being the commanding officer so getting him to risk his life while there are other crew members that can do the same thing isn't a smart move.

That would be true if Shepard had personally commanded a squad of more than 3 people. Miranda, Jacob and Garrus have all illustrated that they can successfully command a squad of at least 7 people as the Fire Team Leader. They are also equally responsible for ensuring the survival of the engineer.

The risk Shepard faces while maintaining a biotic barrier is minimal compared to the dangers of being a Second Fire Team member or another member inside the barrier.

[Sesshomaru47]

Zulmoka531 wrote...

People really don't give Garrus enough credit for what he and his team did on Omega....

Anyways the only surprise I had was that Miranda (even though I never used her for this part) couldn't maintain a "good" biotic bubble. She never really shuts up about herself through the game.

She's her own number one fan. She makes a good second strike team leader though. I never used her as the first, only Garrus...

[Skyblade012]

Actually, I find it hard to believe that any of them are valid leaders. Garrus is the only possibility I see as remotely viable, and his leadership potential didn't have an awesome track record. Jacob actually says that he prefers not being in a leadership position, and doesn't feel like he could hold the load. Miranda is an executive officer through the entire mission (and Jack hates her, which can't do too well for the team dynamic), showing no leadership qualities at all. She is a very good XO, but doesn't seem to be a leader.



The problem is, that each of the specialists worked alone for the most part. The loyalty missions cemented their focus on the mission and their loyalty towards Shepard, but there is nothing at all done to build up their faith in each other. Tactical experience doesn't matter. The rest of the team would have to accept the person you choose as a leader. Jack wouldn't accept Miranda as her leader, and no one would accept Jacob.

[Zulmoka531]

It's kinda funny. The reason I excluded Jacob the first time around was in fact due to his loyalty mission. I saw how his father cracked under command pressure, and despite the conversations and information you can get out of him, I figured it might run in the family.



Looks like all that motivated him the opposite way of his family >.>

[Steven the Hawk]

Fjordgnu wrote...

I didn't quite understand why Grunt didn't work as the second team leader. They say it's a distraction, so you'd think he'd be ideal. Or maybe that does work, and I just messed up the other choice, I admit I don't remember.

I picked Jack based on pretty much the same reasoning, but I see why it's wrong. Even though it's a diversion, people are going to die if the team has no plan beyond mindlessly breaking stuff.

[RighteousRage]

Yeah I dunno, the assessment seems to make sense to me. Miranda seems like too much of a wiener to do anything useful though.

[Madecologist]

As for Garrus, a failed leader is still better than no leader at all (why does this line sound familiar....). Garrus was betrayed, so unless you expect mercs to intimidate someone in the Collector's Base to betray Garrus, you should be safe. He was able to lead his squad quite well and from the stories you hear, very well indead. He did manage to ****** off every Merc on Omega and when you talk to the mercs, they tell you about what "Archangel" was able to pull off. Also hear about his good use of group tactics.

In short, under fire he was good (which is what you need), now the politics of leading a vigilante group out of Omega, he might have failed a little, but that is not an issue here. As so simplely put, he was betrayed, not botched leading his group. Big difference. A Fire Team Leader needs to know tactics, and how to coordinate and lead a group, straight combat experience or skill is not the same thing.

Again, BW gives us 2 to 3 choices on most roles, so if you really feel strongly about not trusting X, you still have Y and Z to pick from. Now if you have an issue with each of them, well that is not the game's problem. This is not a popularity contest (why am I quoting Miranda now), and you can't always think your fav character can do everything. I love Tali, but I won't trust to her to lead a team out of a paper bag, much less lead a fire team .

Edit - Also people give Garrus very little credit, if you listen to what people say on how Archangel led his team and what he did, you would realise he is a very effective squad leader under fire. Also, I don't think anyone hates him on your squad. I guess people should really stop just smashing the X button (or spacebar) through every dialogues.... ;"P

Modifié par Madecologist, 28 février 2010 - 10:31 .

[SnipeyMcGee]

I frankly think it's bizarre that Zaeed cannot lead but Garrus can. He helped begin a mercenary group and has decades of experience on the field working with soldiers. Being older and harsh doesn't stop men from being great leaders. But, besides Zaeed, I agreed with all of them.

[TheGreyGhost119]

I agree with the assessments, but not so much the execution of it.



Honestly, it seems strange that Zaeed dies if he is the second fire team leader. I understand he is a selfish person/sole survivor and all, but that makes me think he should live through that situation no matter what. I understand that they couldn't totally change the mechanics of how the system works, but still...



Besides that, I feel that Bioware was right on the money. The only people that complain are the ones who screwed up and didn't think their choices through it seems.

[Mister_Tez]

Markinator_123 wrote...

What I mean is do you believe
that there is someone who SHOULD be able to perform a specific role
well and game wise they don't. For instance, a friend mine told me that
Mordin should be able to go into the vents (which I think is ridiculous
by the way because Mordin's expertise is in biology.). However, game
wise sending him into the vents leads to his death. Likewise, people
have said that Samara and Zaeed should make good leaders. Personally, i
100% agree with Bioware's assessment of the suicide mission. I just
want to know if anyone has a compelling argument for why a character
should be able to perform a role despite the fact they can't do
it gamewise (at least not well anyway).

PS: This also goes for a particular person who is a good at role game wise who you think shouldn't be.

I agree with BIoWare's assessment.

Markinator_123 wrote...

Leftnt Sharpe wrote...



I did find it a bit odd that Zaeed couldn't lead the fire-team successfully but Jacob could.

Zaeed is way too selfish to make a good leader. Haven't you heard his stories? He is usually a sole survivor.

This.



He's spent several years working alone, and the few times he has worked in a team... his whole team has ended up dead.

Not great Fireteam leader material...

Fjordgnu wrote...

I didn't quite understand why Grunt didn't work as the second team leader. They say it's a distraction, so you'd think he'd be ideal. Or maybe that does work, and I just messed up the other choice, I admit I don't remember.

I also didn't picture Tali infiltrating. I mean, in retrospect, I can see why she would work, getting the broken door, as I imagine that is well within the Quarian area of expertise, but for the vents themselves ... Thane was the natural choice for me, and Legion the second time.

Grunt is, as his name suggests, just a grunt. He's not a leader. He just shoots things, but he needs someone else to give him orders (there is dialogue to that effect IIRC when you talk to him).

Tali & Legion are obvious choices for the vent job. You're told you need a tech specialist, you're told you need someone to quickly hack the security & open the door to let the two teams through in time. Both their bios on the specialist selection screen specifically mention that they are both technical geniuses.

Thane, on the other hand, is a sneaky stealthy assassin... he has some tech skills, but he is not a "Tech Specialist". He's not someone I'd send on a job which was primarily a tech job.

Zulmoka531 wrote...



Anyways the only surprise I
had was that Miranda (even though I never used her for this part)
couldn't maintain a "good" biotic bubble. She never really shuts up
about herself through the game.

That's because she has her head up her genetically engineered perfect butt & thinks she's
amazing at everything, even though she isn't.

There's no way her Biotic skills would be a match for Jack's (made to
be the ultimate human Biotic) or Samara/Morinth's (asari, so a natural
Biotic, plus a Justicar/AY so very very powerful on top of that).

Modifié par Mister_Tez, 28 février 2010 - 10:31 .

[Zulmoka531]

Mister_Tez  wrote...
That's because she has her head up her genetically engineered perfect butt & thinks she's
amazing at everything, even though she isn't.

There's no way her Biotic skills would be a match for Jack's (made to
be the ultimate human Biotic) or Samara/Morinth's (asari, so a natural
Biotic, plus a Justicar/AY so very very powerful on top of that).

Oh I'm not gonna argue that. I made the right choices when it came down to it without any outside help. Seeing Jack and Samara in action was good enough evidence they were the better choices.

Modifié par Zulmoka531, 28 février 2010 - 10:36 .

[Gunslinger0331usmc]

Zulmoka, that line of reasoning, excluding him from leadership because of his father cracking under pressure and it might run in the family makes no sense at all. I have personal experience that proves that this is completely not true, this type of thing comes mostly from each individual's training & experience, lineage has little to do with it. That being said, I believe bioware did a good job, but a couple things, like Jack & Miranda coexisting at all.... If you had M as your LI, she would have insisted Jack be dumped off somewhere. You have Samarra, why keep Jack too?

[DarthCaine]

BioWare's right

Mordin isn't a hacker or anything similar

Zaeed and Samara have always worked alone and Zaeed is always a sole survivor if he's in a group

Grunt's not mature enough to be a leader

Tali sucks at commanding people

You can clearly see that Jack's/Samara's biotics are very powerful, much more than Jacob's or Miranda's

[Zulmoka531]

Gunslinger0331usmc wrote...

Zulmoka, that line of reasoning, excluding him from leadership because of his father cracking under pressure and it might run in the family makes no sense at all. I have personal experience that proves that this is completely not true, this type of thing comes mostly from each individual's training & experience, lineage has little to do with it. That being said, I believe bioware did a good job, but a couple things, like Jack & Miranda coexisting at all.... If you had M as your LI, she would have insisted Jack be dumped off somewhere. You have Samarra, why keep Jack too?

I was not tryig to be insulting to anyone in real life. So please if you took it that way, you have my apologies. I wasn't insinuating that people who's relatives have made mistakes will eventually cause them to follow suite.

[Ecael]

Skyblade012 wrote...

Actually, I find it hard to believe that any of them are valid leaders. Garrus is the only possibility I see as remotely viable, and his leadership potential didn't have an awesome track record. Jacob actually says that he prefers not being in a leadership position, and doesn't feel like he could hold the load. Miranda is an executive officer through the entire mission (and Jack hates her, which can't do too well for the team dynamic), showing no leadership qualities at all. She is a very good XO, but doesn't seem to be a leader.

Because Shepard's team members are not normally seen interacting with each other, it can be assumed that -- aside from Shepard -- Miranda and Jacob have become familiar with the other squadmates for more time than the rest. Both Cerberus members also have past histories in which they have successfully defended a position or led a vital mission; these actions are not described in detail to Shepard, however.

Modifié par Ecael, 28 février 2010 - 10:44 .

[Lord_Tirian]

Mister_Tez wrote...

Grunt is, as his name suggests, just a grunt. He's not a leader. He just shoots things, but he needs someone else to give him orders (there is dialogue to that effect IIRC when you talk to him).

On top of that... just watch him in battle - his sole plan is usually running towards the enemy, shouting "I AM KROGAN!" and laughs about claw hammers applied to turians. What do you think would his battle plan look like!?

Mister_Tez wrote...

There's no way her Biotic skills would be a match for Jack's (made to be the ultimate human Biotic) or Samara/Morinth's (asari, so a natural Biotic, plus a Justicar/AY so very very powerful on top of that).

And don't forget what she says pretty early in the game - that her biotics are pretty awesome "for a human". In the ME universe, it's pretty clear that humans are... relatively sucky biotics. They might do some neat tricks, but that's pretty much it... don't forget, Liara was essentially a teenager and archeologist and had biotics that could whop you good. Aethyra - the bartender matriarch - was threatening Conrad with a singularity. Humans have nothing on Asari (with Jack being an exception, because that's pretty much the whole point of her - being a biotic vastly surpassing normal human potential, wheras Miranda is just at the top of "normal" human potential).

Ecael wrote...

Because Shepard's team members
are not normally seen interacting with each other, it can be assumed
that -- aside from Shepard -- Miranda and Jacob have become familiar
with the other squadmates for more time than the rest. Both Cerberus
members also have past histories in which they have successfully
defended a position or led a vital mission; these actions are not
described in detail to Shepard, however.

Also: Miranda worked two years as team lead to bring Shepard back to life. She's definitely experienced in leadership and handling teams, plus her unique class skill (pumping squad efforts) makes pretty clear that she's a pretty good tactician.

Yeah, there are a lot of minor hints dropped throughout the game telling you the optimal combination.

Modifié par Lord_Tirian, 28 février 2010 - 10:52 .

[Skyblade012]

Ecael wrote...

Skyblade012 wrote...

Actually, I find it hard to believe that any of them are valid leaders. Garrus is the only possibility I see as remotely viable, and his leadership potential didn't have an awesome track record. Jacob actually says that he prefers not being in a leadership position, and doesn't feel like he could hold the load. Miranda is an executive officer through the entire mission (and Jack hates her, which can't do too well for the team dynamic), showing no leadership qualities at all. She is a very good XO, but doesn't seem to be a leader.

Because Shepard's team members are not normally seen interacting with each other, it can be assumed that -- aside from Shepard -- Miranda and Jacob have become familiar with the other squadmates for more time than the rest. Both Cerberus members also have past histories in which they have successfully defended a position or led a vital mission; these actions are not described in detail to Shepard, however.

Ok, let's assume they all get to know each other.  Jacob therefore tells all of them that he's not a leader the same way he told Shepard.  Brilliant, they'll all want to follow him now.

[GnusmasTHX]

I agree with BioWare.



Anyone who doesn't just has serious misconceptions and enjoy wasting their time grasping for straws.

[Gunslinger0331usmc]

No sir, I wasn't insulted, I was merely pointing out that lineage shouldn't be a factor in leadership ability. The way I worded that may not have gotten my point across, what I meant is it shouldn't be a determining factor. I'm not easily offended, I enjoy spirited discussions . I'm glad you brought that up, I'm sure many people feel that way. If that were true, there would be leadership dynasties..... and almost no hope for anyone else

[Beholderess]

I am mostly agree with Bioware.

However, I think that engineer Shepard could be able to handle the vents. Not sure about adept Shepard and the bubble, though. While Shepar is incredibly skilled, maintaining the barrier requires raw power too.



Miranda should be able to handle the bubble, though. After all, she is constructed so that her biotic power exceeds the human norm



Oh, and I've been tempted to say that Grunt should have had at least some leadership ability due to having lots of tactical knowlege imprinted, but so far he is way to exiteable and happy blasting things=)

[yummysoap]

I have to say, I think Thane would have been a good choice for the vents. Didn't we spend the entire Illium recruitment mission crawling through vents of the Dantius towers?

[Ecael]

Beholderess wrote...

I am mostly agree with Bioware.
However, I think that engineer Shepard could be able to handle the vents. Not sure about adept Shepard and the bubble, though. While Shepar is incredibly skilled, maintaining the barrier requires raw power too.

Miranda should be able to handle the bubble, though. After all, she is constructed so that her biotic power exceeds the human norm

Comparing an Adept Shepard's abilities to Miranda's or Jack's biotics, Shepard is more powerful than either of the two due to his accelerated development as both a biotic and a leader. The cybernetic implants further boosted his biotic potential. As a result, Miranda expresses envy for Shepard as he was superior even before the Lazarus project.

Miranda does have a particular advantage in enhancement concerning other implants, however.

...

...

That was a joke.

Modifié par Ecael, 01 mars 2010 - 05:08 .

[Chamberboozer]

Miranda is better than average at biotics, but she couldn't hope to maintain the field. She herself tell you that her biotics are powerful - for a human. Samara is clearly superior.