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[Mirthadrond]

I just want to vent for a min.

While I love this game, I had one very disappointing moment during my first play-through.

I was at the Landsmeet and had just defeated Loghain as was about to render judgement, and honestly speaking was eager to loop his head off, when all of a sudden Riordan pops out and says something along the lines of:  
"hey, before you cut off his head....  you know.. we can always make him into a Grey Warden..."

At that moment I paused... 

Not because I wanted to make Loghain a grey warden, oh no.. far from it.  I wanted nothing more than Loghains death.
But...  something about that fact that Riordan stopped me, gave me pause.
I asked myself....  "Now why in the hell would Riordan want me to make Loghain a Grey Warden??  Unless there is something drastic, something VERY important to my future well-being at stake here?"

Although I completely agreed with Alister, on every point he made, and felt the exact same way, I knew 'something was up'.  There was something Riordan wasn't telling us.

I decided to be patient, and wait to learn the "real reason" Riordan wanted Loghain spared.

I was all for sacrificing Loghain, if it meant Alister and I lived.

However, Alister get's totally pissed off and leaves the party???!!!   Wait??  WTF???  Alister???  Can we at least talk about this in private, later,  before you decide to abandon everything??

Alister leaves....  and I kept expecting him to show up.....   hoping he'd come back so I could explain 'why' I spared Loghain, at that particular moment.
But he doesn't.....   I waited up until the final battle, and realized he wasn't ever going to come back, so I stopped... and reloaded an older save game, and killed Loghain.

Which of course, lead me to the Ultimate Sacrifice, because I wasn't about to sacrifice my new King, whom I discarded hours of game-play to go back and save....

Any way...  I'm just mad because I didn't have an option to try and change Alisters mind.

I was smart enough guess that ultimately, we were going to be feeding Loghain to the Archdemon.  I just wish I'd have had a chance to convince Alister "that" was a much better plan than either he or I, dying.

A fitting death for Loghain as well.....  He becomes dragon poop?  I'm down...

[CalJones]

Well, the dragon doesn't actually eat the unlucky Warden who gets to stick a sword through its head, but still...

Fact is, you cannot have both Loghain and Alistair. Alistair cannot see himself as a "brother" to Loghain and will leave the Wardens. Sucky I know, but them's the breaks. What you can do is harden Alistair and have him agree to marry Anora, and then he'll be king, but he still won't be in party (he'll show up at your celebration after the Archdemon is dead, though, and you can speak to him there).

Loghain is an interesting character to have around if you talk to him (give him maps to bump up his approval and don't be an ass to him and he'll warm up to you pretty quickly) - be sure to take him to camp at least once, and chat to him there. His stats aren't brilliant but with the right gear (his existing armour is already decent so I never bother to replace it) he can hang with the rest of the team. If you have Return to Ostagar, it's worth doing once with Alistair and once with Loghain, to get the different reactions. It's just a pity that you can't have them both in party for that - now that would be very interesting.

[errant_knight]

Thing is, even if you could explain that to Alistair, it wouldn't make a difference. He believes that being a Grey Warden is the highest possible honor. He wouldn't care that killing the archdemon would spare himself or another warden. Killing the Archdemon is an honor. Not one that he thought would kill him, but an honor, nonetheless. It would make Loghain a hero. It would make him a brother in arms, equal to the people he killed when he abandoned the field.

That alone would be enough to make it impossible for Alistair to accept, but when you add his personal hatred, the fact that he's been telling you from day one the justice he requires, that you know this and choose to do otherwise.... It's a total betrayal, and you're asking him to serve sid by side with this man. It's the same as asking the PC to serve alongside Howe because it might be handy later.

Modifié par errant_knight, 28 février 2010 - 09:49 .

[Mirthadrond]

I've always known there was a different side to Loghain, but by the time I've reached the Landsmeet, I've got nothing but murder on my mind.



I might have to spare him at some point, just so I can see his reaction at Ostagar, that sounds particularly interesting.

[errant_knight]

I'm told it is, but I can't see ever doing it, not with what that does to Alistair. That's what youtube is for.

[Nonvita]

Alistair is simply too angry to be able to reason with him. You could try and explain things slowly and calmly (in simple words, of course), but he still wouldn't listen. It's because you've done the worst possible thing you could have to him. Taking revenge on Loghain, unfortunately, became more important to Alistair than anything else, even the Grey Wardens. While it's not entirely honorable, it is, to a degree, understandable. Imagine as an HN that someone tried to tell you to let Howe become a Grey Warden, or as a CE someone saying Vaughn should, etc. *Some* people might be so forgiving they would do it, but for most people I think that seeing the person they despise above all others given the chance at redemption and honor is completely unacceptable.



David Gaider has already responded to complaints like this by mentioning that Alistair may come to regret his decision in the future. It was obviously rash, and it comes with consequences. How it will play out we don't know exactly, but hopefully keeping that in mind will alleviate some of your frustrations.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

It is Alistair's kryptonite: his hatred for Loghain. You can travel the whole of the game, getting his approval down to -100 and him thinking you a disgrace to the Wardens. He'll stick around until the end. But Loghain is the one thing that is powerful enough to override everything he believes in or wants. It's his breaking point, his greatest weakness. It paralells Loghains hatred for the Orlesians.



But it is understandable, and from his point of view, justifiable. I certainly understand, and can agree with it. Warden or not, I know that I would snap if someone told me to make a man who took everything from me one of my brothers in arms. I'd probably handle it even more violently than Alistair did.



I have spared Loghain and had him kill the archdemon afterwards, and made Alistair and Anora marry. In the epilogue, if Loghain is dead, he seems to have gotten over being mad at you, feeling that Loghain sacrificing himself to kill the archdemon was at least some fitting form of justice. If Loghain lives via Morrigans ritual, he still pretty miffed, but seems like, given time, he'll stop being pissed, as he is focusing on ruling the kingdom.



Either way, there simply is no possibility of Loghain and Alistair ever playing on the same team. Ever.

[Mirthadrond]

errant_knight wrote...

Thing is, even if you could explain that to Alistair, it wouldn't make a difference. He believes that being a Grey Warden is the highest possible honor. He wouldn't care that killing the archdemon would spare himself or another warden. Killing the Archdemon is an honor. Not one that he thought would kill him, but an honor, nonetheless. It would make Loghain a hero. It would make him a brother in arms, equal to the people he killed when he abandoned the field.

That alone would be enough to make it impossible for Alistair to accept, but when you add his personal hatred, the fact that he's been telling you from day one the justice he requires, that you know this and choose to do otherwise.... It's a total betrayal, and you're asking him to serve sid by side with this man. It's the same as asking the PC to serve alongside Howe because it might be handy later.

I can understand this point, and agree for the most part, which is 'why' I generally kill Loghain.

However, I still wish I had the option.

It would be nice to not have to bed the witch, and have some bastard god baby, raised by the worst potential mother on the planet, in order to keep my friends and I alive and our relationship intact.

I think my PC could actually pull it off, to be honest.  (convince Alister ).
"Loghain will still die Alister... it will just be a much more spectacular death than say..... me simply cutting off his head."

It's a win win.

No bastard old god baby; Alister lives, I live...  Fereldon remains and Loghain dies in obscurity because Alister is now King and says so....

[errant_knight]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

It is Alistair's kryptonite: his hatred for Loghain. You can travel the whole of the game, getting his approval down to -100 and him thinking you a disgrace to the Wardens. He'll stick around until the end. But Loghain is the one thing that is powerful enough to override everything he believes in or wants. It's his breaking point, his greatest weakness. It paralells Loghains hatred for the Orlesians.

But it is understandable, and from his point of view, justifiable. I certainly understand, and can agree with it. Warden or not, I know that I would snap if someone told me to make a man who took everything from me one of my brothers in arms. I'd probably handle it even more violently than Alistair did.

I have spared Loghain and had him kill the archdemon afterwards, and made Alistair and Anora marry. In the epilogue, if Loghain is dead, he seems to have gotten over being mad at you, feeling that Loghain sacrificing himself to kill the archdemon was at least some fitting form of justice. If Loghain lives via Morrigans ritual, he still pretty miffed, but seems like, given time, he'll stop being pissed, as he is focusing on ruling the kingdom.

Either way, there simply is no possibility of Loghain and Alistair ever playing on the same team. Ever.

It's funny, but I interpret those same endgame conversations as being no less unhappy about it, even if he otherwise approves of your actions, just more accepting, with the potential of being openly contemptuous if his approval is very low. It's interesting how many of the things in the game can be read in differing ways.

Mirthadrond wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Thing is, even if you could explain that to Alistair, it wouldn't make a difference. He believes that being a Grey Warden is the highest possible honor. He wouldn't care that killing the archdemon would spare himself or another warden. Killing the Archdemon is an honor. Not one that he thought would kill him, but an honor, nonetheless. It would make Loghain a hero. It would make him a brother in arms, equal to the people he killed when he abandoned the field.

That alone would be enough to make it impossible for Alistair to accept, but when you add his personal hatred, the fact that he's been telling you from day one the justice he requires, that you know this and choose to do otherwise.... It's a total betrayal, and you're asking him to serve sid by side with this man. It's the same as asking the PC to serve alongside Howe because it might be handy later.

I can understand this point, and agree for the most part, which is 'why' I generally kill Loghain.

However, I still wish I had the option.

It would be nice to not have to bed the witch, and have some bastard god baby, raised by the worst potential mother on the planet, in order to keep my friends and I alive and our relationship intact.

I think my PC could actually pull it off, to be honest.  (convince Alister ).
"Loghain will still die Alister... it will just be a much more spectacular death than say..... me simply cutting off his head."

It's a win win.

No bastard old god baby; Alister lives, I live...  Fereldon remains and Loghain dies in obscurity because Alister is now King and says so....

You can't control who people view as a hero, and Loghain would be one to the masses. If Alistair wasn't a man of strong principles--even when you disagree with them--he wouldn't be the man that he is, and would be a less interesting character. I think part of the point there is that Alistair isn't the puppet that Loghain, and possibly Eamon, think him. He's going to stand up for his beliefs even when you wish he wouldn't.

Modifié par errant_knight, 28 février 2010 - 10:42 .

[amethyst_rose2009]

And this would be one of the main reasons that some people hate Alistair.   Although I couldn't possibly imagine our human noble pc being okay if Alistair ever asked us to spare Howe after what Howe did back at Highever, so I don't know why people expect Alistair to be okay with sparing someone who killed a man that was like a father to him, all of his gray warden friends, and even his half-brother.  Anyway this is a very heated subject that is bound to stir up a lot of people on both sides, so I will leave it at that. 

But what it comes down to is that Bioware wanted to torment us by forcing us to make such a game-changing decision at the spur of the moment without the knowledge that we later find out from Riordan, which of course would have helped immensely.


Edit: I will add however that I wish there could have been a "Throw Loghain in the tower" option just so we could talk to him.  That's my only regret about killing him every time  - that I don't get to talk to him and find out information that you only discover if he's in your party.

Modifié par amethyst_rose2009, 28 février 2010 - 11:04 .

[Erucolindo]

This bothered me so much cause I certainly wasn't expecting it and ever since I made the choice on my first play through, I thought it was just wrong. Especially the way Alistair ends up if you don't have enough approval with him and haven't hardened him as I didn't. It's why I am going to harden him so that at least he will stick around and become King. Sometimes you have to lose your friends to save them.



However, I'm not sure what Howe does to the HN is the same as what Log. does. Don't get me wrong, what Log. does is a betrayal, but Log didn't send his soliders to attack The King from behind, he simply left the field and left them to the Darkspawn. Howe ordered his men to slaughter.



It makes for very good drama, but I've since deleted that playthrough and am redoing it. It just feels wrong doing the Witch to produce some possible new evil to deal with later. It's why I think my character is slowly falling for Leliana, because while they are both hot, leli personality is more compatable and less ruthless. The ritual will only reaffirm his choice.

[amethyst_rose2009]

Erucolindo wrote...

However, I'm not sure what Howe does to the HN is the same as what Log. does. Don't get me wrong, what Log. does is a betrayal, but Log didn't send his soliders to attack The King from behind, he simply left the field and left them to the Darkspawn. Howe ordered his men to slaughter.

Yeah, I mean I can agree with you there.  Loghain didn't actually "kill" anyone.  He just left them to get killed.  A fine line, but still.  And I don't actually hate Loghain........not completely anyway.  I actually liked the younger Loghain from the books and realize that he's just become too irrational in his hatred towards Orlais to see things clearly anymore.  Which is why I wish you didn't have to kill him.  Maybe just lock him up or something, but not necessarily kill him.  But I suppose people could argue that he would have supporters to help him if you did that, so maybe that's why Bioware didn't include that option.


Edit: And about Morrigan's baby, yeah you just know that's going to come back and haunt us in the next game, LOL.   You think Rosemary's baby was bad........just wait until we see Morrigan's baby.

Modifié par amethyst_rose2009, 28 février 2010 - 11:02 .

[Helios969]

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...

And this would be one of the main reasons that people hate Alistair.  

People hate Alistair?  What's to hate?

I will say that the whole him leaving the party is a writing flaw in terms of consistency.  I mean, I can convince him to have sex with a woman he allegedly despises (I'm not entirely convinced!) We can get him to assume a throne he doesn't want.  We can get him to marry a woman he doesn't love.  But we can't get him to spare Loghain's life for a few days to take one for Team Warden?

[Maria13]

errant_knight wrote...

However, I still wish I had the option.

It would be nice to not have to bed the witch, and have some bastard god baby, raised by the worst potential mother on the planet, in order to keep my friends and I alive and our relationship intact.

I think my PC could actually pull it off, to be honest.  (convince Alister ).
"Loghain will still die Alister... it will just be a much more spectacular death than say..... me simply cutting off his head."

It's a win win.

No bastard old god baby; Alister lives, I live...  Fereldon remains and Loghain dies in obscurity because Alister is now King and says so....

Actually it isn't and Logain does not die in obscurity but as the hero that takes down the Archdemon which, in a way, is something Alistair is desperate to do if you give him half a chance. 

One of the great things about this game is that there really are no win-win endings. 

[amethyst_rose2009]

Helios969 wrote...

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...

And this would be one of the main reasons that people hate Alistair.  

People hate Alistair?  What's to hate?
 

LOL, I know, right?  He's too adorable and goofy to hate.    Sorry,  I meant to put "some people". 

[Erucolindo]

They (Bioware) did it the way they did because they wanted your choice to spare Loghain to have weight behind it and to have a negative consquence to it, to make you pay for it. They didn't want you to make such a big choice with nothing behind it and everyone happy as a clam. They wanted to give you methods to avoid the ultimate sacrafice, but they didn't want you getting them cheap.

[Helios969]

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...

And this would be one of the main reasons that people hate Alistair.  

People hate Alistair?  What's to hate?
 

LOL, I know, right?  He's too adorable and goofy to hate.    Sorry,  I meant to put "some people". 

I could see how some might be turned off by his emo-nature, but to hate him - that just blows me away.  I can find reasons to hate every character, but for me the worst I could ever call Alistair is annoying.

[Mirthadrond]

I understand Alister is angry with Loghain, my character is too; and you all make fabulous points.



However, Loghain didn't kill the King or Duncan. He abandoned them to die at the hands of the darkspawn.



Interesting enough, if you played the Return to Ostagar DL, the guy you discover in the woods, the aide to King Cailan, says Cailan didn't expect them to actually win the battle, hence why he was given the key.



So - by not dying on the battlefield with Cailan, did Loghain murder him??



That doesn't mean Loghain doesn't deserve to die, but even in the game, history is written by those who win.

Alister would have an impact on that outcome. No monuments to Loghain, and like the Grey Wardens sacrifices of the past, Loghain would eventually be forgotten.



I understand Alisters hatred was pretty damn deep, and I understand why the writers wanted to shock and awe us.... but at the end of the day, my PC's cunning and coercion skills were so awesome he could sell ice cubes to Eskimos.

I just wanted an opportunity....

[Erucolindo]

Helios969 wrote...

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...

And this would be one of the main reasons that people hate Alistair.  

People hate Alistair?  What's to hate?

I will say that the whole him leaving the party is a writing flaw in terms of consistency.  I mean, I can convince him to have sex with a woman he allegedly despises (I'm not entirely convinced!) We can get him to assume a throne he doesn't want.  We can get him to marry a woman he doesn't love.  But we can't get him to spare Loghain's life for a few days to take one for Team Warden?

His hatred for Loghain runs deeper then a simple dislike/fear of being King and some opposition to marrying Anora. At least, that's how I would justify it. It still really sucks that you can't convince him, but this is one of those things that he won't get over just cause you have four skill points in coerscion, it will take some time. Time for his anger to lessen.

[SurelyForth]

Helios969 wrote...

I will say that the whole him leaving the party is a writing flaw in terms of consistency.  I mean, I can convince him to have sex with a woman he allegedly despises (I'm not entirely convinced!) We can get him to assume a throne he doesn't want.  We can get him to marry a woman he doesn't love.  But we can't get him to spare Loghain's life for a few days to take one for Team Warden?

Doing the ritual, becoming king, and marrying Anora are things he doesn't want to do, but they don't offend him to his core and he can see the merits in all three actions (saving all the Wardens, doing his duty, and making a good case for the Landsmeet). Loghain becoming a Warden offends him to his core and he can't see the benefits (having his experience and that extra, tainted, body on hand) because a) he despise him as far as he knows, you've been doing an awesome job without him and can continue to do so and c) Loghain is completely untrustworthy. 

[errant_knight]

Maria13 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

However, I still wish I had the option.

It would be nice to not have to bed the witch, and have some bastard god baby, raised by the worst potential mother on the planet, in order to keep my friends and I alive and our relationship intact.

I think my PC could actually pull it off, to be honest.  (convince Alister ).
"Loghain will still die Alister... it will just be a much more spectacular death than say..... me simply cutting off his head."

It's a win win.

No bastard old god baby; Alister lives, I live...  Fereldon remains and Loghain dies in obscurity because Alister is now King and says so....

Actually it isn't and Logain does not die in obscurity but as the hero that takes down the Archdemon which, in a way, is something Alistair is desperate to do if you give him half a chance. 

One of the great things about this game is that there really are no win-win endings. 

I didn't write that, I'm afraid. The OP did.

Modifié par errant_knight, 28 février 2010 - 11:25 .

[rak72]

To Nonvita & DG saying that Alistair will regret his decision later:



Could it be possible that Alistair is really Logain's son, and Calin's 1/2 bro through his mother's side? That would give Emon more reason to raise him, since he was Calin's moms brother.



But thats probably just crazy talk

[SurelyForth]

rak72 wrote...

To Nonvita & DG saying that Alistair will regret his decision later:

Could it be possible that Alistair is really Logain's son, and Calin's 1/2 bro through his mother's side? That would give Emon more reason to raise him, since he was Calin's moms brother.

But thats probably just crazy talk

No, It's pretty well established that Cailan and Alistair both look like Maric and Alistair's personality is very similar to Maric's, if you've read the books. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 28 février 2010 - 11:29 .

[Sandtigress]

rak72 wrote...

To Nonvita & DG saying that Alistair will regret his decision later:

Could it be possible that Alistair is really Logain's son, and Calin's 1/2 bro through his mother's side? That would give Emon more reason to raise him, since he was Calin's moms brother.

But thats probably just crazy talk

I think Alistair looks too much like Maric for that possibility.  Plus, I think we would have noticed a pregnant Rowan in Stolen Throne, and that would give him no real claim to the throne over Anora, being only son of a Queen and not son of a King and Theirin.

[Mirthadrond]

Helios969 wrote...

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...

And this would be one of the main reasons that people hate Alistair.  

People hate Alistair?  What's to hate?

I will say that the whole him leaving the party is a writing flaw in terms of consistency.  I mean, I can convince him to have sex with a woman he allegedly despises (I'm not entirely convinced!) We can get him to assume a throne he doesn't want.  We can get him to marry a woman he doesn't love.  But we can't get him to spare Loghain's life for a few days to take one for Team Warden?

LOL!!  Take one for Team Warden!!!

ROTFLMAO!!!