86 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

rak72 wrote...

To Nonvita & DG saying that Alistair will regret his decision later:

Could it be possible that Alistair is really Logain's son, and Calin's 1/2 bro through his mother's side? That would give Emon more reason to raise him, since he was Calin's moms brother.

But thats probably just crazy talk

Eeee..... That makes me feel kind of nauseated. I don't believe it for a minute, though. That would mean that Alistair had no right to the throne.

[amethyst_rose2009]

SurelyForth wrote...

rak72 wrote...

To Nonvita & DG saying that Alistair will regret his decision later:

Could it be possible that Alistair is really Logain's son, and Calin's 1/2 bro through his mother's side? That would give Emon more reason to raise him, since he was Calin's moms brother.

But thats probably just crazy talk

No, It's pretty well established that Cailan and Alistair both look like Maric and Alistair's personality is very similar to Maric's, if you've read the books. 

Yeah the books explain things a lot better than the game does, and Alistair is just like the young Maric.

Modifié par amethyst_rose2009, 28 février 2010 - 11:35 .

[Nonvita]

Yes, it's very clear Alistair is Maric's son. Fiona's son or not, now there is the question, but alas this is not the place for that discussion! (And I haven't read the books yet anyway, but I will try to soon!)

I do hope, however, that they go through with their threat that he will regret it. When I get around to playing my mage I'll finally have a chance to spare Loghain, so I'll get to see Alistair leave. And my mage being the sweety that she will be, it's going to hurt a lot to see him go. I think it's likely he'll reappear for future plot developments, the most obvious being should the Fiona situation arise (whether or not he's her son, he's got something to do with it).

Which makes me curious if that could be one potential repercussion... If Fiona is his mom--since she's a Grey Warden--coming back to find that he abandoned the Grey Wardens could lead to some interesting interactions...

Ah but that's all speculation. As it stands, I've never held it too much against Alistair for acting like a child in that situation. There are times my character can act like children, too (or my HN definitely would if the same situation happened with Howe), and it really is his one breaking point. It's a disappointing choice that he makes, but it is what it is.

[AlanC9]

Mirthadrond wrote...
However, Loghain didn't kill the King or Duncan. He abandoned them to die at the hands of the darkspawn.

Interesting enough, if you played the Return to Ostagar DL, the guy you discover in the woods, the aide to King Cailan, says Cailan didn't expect them to actually win the battle, hence why he was given the key.

So - by not dying on the battlefield with Cailan, did Loghain murder him??

Loghain made the battle plan, though. He acted as though he believed in it in order to get Cailan killed. Of course it's murder. Mass murder.

Anyway, Loghain ordered plenty of murders after that. He hired Zevran, after all, and had Eamon poisoned, and much else.

[Gilsa]

@Mirthadrond -- That's pretty much what my first game was like. Riodain interrupted, I hear him out, Alistair gets mad, etc. It was always my intention to put Anora on the throne, but Riordan made a very good case for recruiting Loghain. (I was a dwarf so I didn't have the emotional attachments that the human players did regarding Howe/Loghain/etc.) I didn't know if Anora would withdraw her support if Loghain was killed especially since I assured her in the prior conversation that I'd keep an open mind. Plus I was well aware that Loghain was a general of reown. Would I gain the loyalty of his army and be able to summon them in the Blight? And this would mean one more Grey Warden to fight against the Blight, right? Why not just deal with Loghain after the Blight was over? What would Duncan do in my shoes?



HOWEVER, once you venture past the "We need all the help we can get, Alistair" line, that's when the game goes into the point of no return. When I realized I wasn't getting a third Grey Warden, that it was either/or, Alistair is already demanding to be king. My two choices were "fine, be king" or "I can't do that, sorry." There was no "OK, we'll finish off Loghain, but Anora is still ruling." I still lost him.



@Erucolindo -- "Sometimes you have to lose your friends to save them." Very well said.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

rak72 wrote...

To Nonvita & DG saying that Alistair will regret his decision later:

Could it be possible that Alistair is really Logain's son, and Calin's 1/2 bro through his mother's side? That would give Emon more reason to raise him, since he was Calin's moms brother.

But thats probably just crazy talk

Could see the revised Landsmeet scene now.

Alistair: Forget Maric, this is for Duncan!
Loghain:(deep, hissy, crackly James Earl Jones Voice) Wait....Alistair, I am your father.
Alistair: .........
Loghain: Come to the dark Side. We have cookies.
Alistair: (Massive coronary, head explodes)
Sten:.....cookies, you say? Tell me more.

But honestly, Alistair's paternity was never in question, just his maternity, which is the reverse of the usual scenario.

Loghain, granted did not directly kill the king and Wardens, he abandoned them when they were counting on him the most to save them, basically walked away. Whether or not the battle was winnable or not, in Alistair's mind, Loghain himself may as well have went around and stabbed them individually himself.

[eternalnightmare13]

Wait...he can just leave? When you go through the ritual of icky blood drinking they're all like drink or die. But ****y lil aliester can just leave? WTF?!

[Nonvita]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Wait...he can just leave? When you go through the ritual of icky blood drinking they're all like drink or die. But ****y lil aliester can just leave? WTF?!

He can also become King (and the Warden can become King or Queen as well) which goes against the Grey Warden code. However, with a grand total of two Grey Wardens left in Ferelden (3 with Riordan), it seems the usual rules of the order pretty much go down the drain...

[SirOccam]

I can't ever bring myself to kill Loghain, for several reasons (in no particular order):

1. The rules of the duel were such that it ended when one person yielded. It was not supposed to be a fight to the death. It seems very...unsporting? Ungentlemanly? Dishonorable?...to go ahead and execute him right then and there.

2. His daughter's like right there. I know this is metagaming, but I've seen videos of him being killed, and he has to hush Anora, and he's talking about her being 6 years old with skinned knees and such.... I'm not a father but I have a 6-year old niece, and I dunno, something seems wrong about killing him right in front of her, drenching her in his blood.

3. If we eschew all emotion and just look at the cold, hard facts... more wardens = better chance of killing the archdemon = better chance of saving Ferelden/the world.

4. As Anora and Riordan say, despite his egregious betrayal, he is still a hero to the people, and perhaps a chance to redeem himself isn't so out of the question. I'm a sucker for a good redemption story.

5. If Alistair would listen to reason for a second, you could tell him "dude, I want to stay alive and I want you to stay alive...let him die instead." (This one's kind of moot for me personally though, as I usually take Morrigan up on her offer anyway)

6. As you have the opportunity to say several times, "we need all the help we can get."

Modifié par SirOccam, 01 mars 2010 - 12:36 .

[amethyst_rose2009]

SirOccam wrote...

2. His daughter's like right there. I know this is metagaming, but I've seen videos of him being killed, and he has to hush Anora, and he's talking about her being 6 years old with skinned knees and such.... I'm not a father but I have a 6-year old niece, and I dunno, something seems wrong about killing him right in front of her, drenching her in his blood.

Well if you let Alistair fight him instead of your pc, that scene isn't nearly as emotional.  I've never even seen that since I always let Alistair fight Loghain.  With Alistair, it's over rather quickly, Riordan doesn't even interfere nor does Anora.  She does still get splatted with her father's blood though which is pretty harsh.

[Gilsa]

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

2. His daughter's like right there. I know this is metagaming, but I've seen videos of him being killed, and he has to hush Anora, and he's talking about her being 6 years old with skinned knees and such.... I'm not a father but I have a 6-year old niece, and I dunno, something seems wrong about killing him right in front of her, drenching her in his blood.

Well if you let Alistair fight him instead of your pc, that scene isn't nearly as emotional.  I've never even seen that since I always let Alistair fight Loghain.  With Alistair, it's over rather quickly, Riordan doesn't even interfere nor does Anora.  She does still get splatted with her father's blood though which is pretty harsh.

You definitely should duel Loghain once and see how that plays out. You can still have him exectuted so there's no harm in seeing the extra footage. I've always been bowled over by how much of a daughter Anora becomes when she tells him to stop shushing her, that this is beyond serious, and he's trying to find the words to tell her he accepts how it must be. It really makes you think about what if you were in a position of having your child witnessing you about to be executed and what you would say to help your child accept this inevitabilty.

[amethyst_rose2009]

Gilsa wrote...

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

2. His daughter's like right there. I know this is metagaming, but I've seen videos of him being killed, and he has to hush Anora, and he's talking about her being 6 years old with skinned knees and such.... I'm not a father but I have a 6-year old niece, and I dunno, something seems wrong about killing him right in front of her, drenching her in his blood.

Well if you let Alistair fight him instead of your pc, that scene isn't nearly as emotional.  I've never even seen that since I always let Alistair fight Loghain.  With Alistair, it's over rather quickly, Riordan doesn't even interfere nor does Anora.  She does still get splatted with her father's blood though which is pretty harsh.

You definitely should duel Loghain once and see how that plays out. You can still have him exectuted so there's no harm in seeing the extra footage. I've always been bowled over by how much of a daughter Anora becomes when she tells him to stop shushing her, that this is beyond serious, and he's trying to find the words to tell her he accepts how it must be. It really makes you think about what if you were in a position of having your child witnessing you about to be executed and what you would say to help your child accept this inevitabilty.

 That's just.....so terribly sad.   I don't think I would have the heart to do it.  I guess that's why I always just let Alistair handle it.   Oh why does Bioware force us to make such tough decisions?

[Gilsa]

I found a video you can just watch instead. The Anora/Loghain conversation is at the 1:55 mark.

[amethyst_rose2009]

Gilsa wrote...

I found a video you can just watch instead. The Anora/Loghain conversation is at the 1:55 mark.

Awww......   That is much more emotional than just getting Alistair to fight Loghain.  As I've said before I truly wish there was a way to just send him to the tower or something instead of just killing him.  After reading the books, it's really sad that this is the only option........if you want to keep Alistair in your party anyway.

[Masticetobbacco]

eh don't worry



if loghain sacrifices himself, later on I'm sure alistair will forgive you and forget about it and you can go back to being friends

[Thalorin1919]

It kills me inside when I do keep Loghain. Even when I have Alistair hardened, and he will stay to become King and marry Anora, he still dishes it out to you.



Like - "I thought you were my friend" and all this other stuff. I felt really bad, I honestly have never been able to go through with it. So in alot of my playthroughs, I have either had sacrificed myself, sacrificed Alistair, or took Morrigans offer.



It sucks. I can understand him though. Your best friend that you have been recruiting armies with recruits the very guy that tried to kill you. But all well, there are no happy endings in this game, thats what makes it so great.

[Monica21]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Wait...he can just leave? When you go through the ritual of icky blood drinking they're all like drink or die. But ****y lil aliester can just leave? WTF?!

Don't forget that Alistair is the last of the Theirin bloodline. Grey Warden or not, just offing him would be frowned upon at best.

[7th_Phoenix]

I completely understand Alistair ditching you if you decided to recruit Loghain. You betrayed him to take in a guy who abandoned Ostagar and put all the blame of King Cailan's death on the Grey Wardens and proclaimed them traitors. Loghain deserves his execution and I'm glad he accepts his death as the "hero" he was; however, Alistair is so filled with anger and disappointment with your choice when you recruit Loghain that he's abandoned his oath as a Grey Warden to protect the land against darkspawn and the Blight.



Overall, it seems like an insult to Alistair, Duncan, and the other Grey Wardens that you would want to keep Loghain alive. I say, Loghain deserves execution for the trouble and false accusations he's given the wardens; and if you do recruit Loghain, you deserve to be abandoned by Alistair because he's pissed and doesn't want to fight beside a traitor.

[Mirthadrond]

I admit, it was gut retching horror, the things Alister said to me the first time I 'tried' to spare Loghain.



That's exactly why I ended up back tracking and reloading my game, when I realized he wasn't coming back, and I'll freely admit it... I was VERY fond of Alister. He was my friend, and comrade in arms.

The two of us fighting the blight.

To see him so pissed off and hurt... well.. it really upset me that he felt so betrayed.



I had spared other people in the game with no ill effects. Blood mages, bounty hunters, Sten, Zevran, the Warden blood mage murderer in Soldiers Peak.... I really didn't think Alister would take it so badly.

Many people had tried to kill me and my party, but.... "we are ridiculously awesome" as Zev would say.

Lelianna convinced me to spare those Loghain goons in the bar in Lothering. "Clearly they were no match for you."



After sparing the lives of all those people, killing dragons and discovering lost relics, I figured Alister would be on board. But Nooooooooooo.. he totally flips out.



When Loghain then submits to my judgement; and shows his actual human side, I had to consider mercy, for mercy's sake.

I'd forgiven so many others during the course of the game, for crimes just as heinous. Why not forgive Loghain?

I mean seriously? We really did need all the help we could get.



Then Alister flips... and my world turned upside down.



Thank goodness for saved games.....



I ended up back tracking again, in my 2nd play. I was romancing Alister, set to become Queen, and rejected Morrigans offer because Alister was so weirded out by the idea.... and of course, he dies instead of me.

Oh great... now the King I worked to put on the throne is dead, and Anora, the woman I betrayed (essentially) to get him there, is now Queen.... wonderful...



To her credit, she does act grateful, but I know deep down she hasn't forgotten that I betrayed her for Alister.



Grrrrrrh....... stop... reload saved game again... "Sorry Alister, but you're having sex with Morrigan, whether you like it or not..."

[errant_knight]

And luckily you can get him to do that without resorting to 'persuade', lying, or saying 'you'd do it if you loved me.'

[NightmarezAbound]

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...


 That's just.....so terribly sad.   I don't think I would have the heart to do it.  I guess that's why I always just let Alistair handle it.   Oh why does Bioware force us to make such tough decisions?

 Because they love us, because  a game that can nail us emotionally to the core, is a well written, well thought out peice of work.

 And I love there was no pure clean ending, like in say, KOTOR, if you played lightside.

[ENCHANTMENTSSS]

Enchantmentsss stands with Mirthadrond!

O captain my captain!

[Gabey5]

duncan was like his father

Calin was his brother



/thread

[Mirthadrond]

Gabey5 wrote...

duncan was like his father
Calin was his brother

/thread

Well, ya.. but...

Duncan he met only a few months ago.

Calin - he barely knew, even if he was his 1/2 brother. 

Now, I'm not trying to slight his emotion or feelings, but seriously??  Storming out of the landsmeet was a bit extreme.
The whole point of all the crap we went through together was to save Ferelden and stop the blight, not punish Loghain and Howe for being douchebags.

"whatever it takes"

In real life - I would have immediately turned to Eamon and said:  "Slap this SOB in irons...   I'll be right back."

Then I would have tracked Alister down and had a serious talk with him.  Gathered up Riordan and found out why 'exactly' he wanted Loghain to join the Wardens.

Remember - Riordan had been tortured by Howe for weeks, and apparently wasn't holding a grudge.  He's a Senior Warden, and deserves both Alister's and my respect.  He also clearly has an alterior motive for recruiting Loghain.
I wanted to know WHY - before we made any rash, emotion based decisions.  The future of our country and the world was at stake, not just our personal vendettas.

I had just as much justification to hate Loghain, (and did) but my duty as a Warden and protector of the people comes first.
Alister ALSO has a very strong sense of duty, so convincing him not to leave me when I needed him most was well within the range of my characters abilities, as well as the bond of friendship that Alister and I had established.

After hearing all the facts, and making my case, if Alister STILL wanted to chop Loghains head off, I wouldn't stop him.
Also - I might add:
Alister was not going to be King in that play through, as I hadn't 'hardened' him, since I didn't even know such a thing was possible at the time, and he clearly didn't want to be king.
I wasn't about to force it on him, despite Eamon's wish to retain the blood line.

Placing someone on the Throne, who doesn't actually want to be there, is not a good idea - imho.

Besides, we were Grey Wardens now, our lives 'before' the joining were over.  Whatever we were, or were going to be, is gone forever.


Let me clarify - I completely understand 'why' the writers wanted shock value / consequences to your decisions, and I applaud them for this.

However - making a character do something uncharacteristic, and then NOT letting me compensate for their irrational behavior, is just plain mean.
At least give me a chance to talk him away from the ledge.

The way the scene plays out now - if you even 'consider' Riordans offer for a second, it sets off an uncontrollable series of events that left me going... "WTF just happend???"

Which... as Wynn would put it:  'is utterly inappropriate'; especially during a Landsmeet.

Modifié par Mirthadrond, 01 mars 2010 - 10:13 .

[Mirthadrond]

ENCHANTMENTSSS wrote...

Enchantmentsss stands with Mirthadrond!
O captain my captain!

YEAH!!

I'm happy now!!

Hmmmmm...  now to just find someone who'll enchant my brains out....