86 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria13]

7th_Phoenix wrote...

I completely understand Alistair ditching you if you decided to recruit Loghain. You betrayed him to take in a guy who abandoned Ostagar and put all the blame of King Cailan's death on the Grey Wardens and proclaimed them traitors. Loghain deserves his execution and I'm glad he accepts his death as the "hero" he was; however, Alistair is so filled with anger and disappointment with your choice when you recruit Loghain that he's abandoned his oath as a Grey Warden to protect the land against darkspawn and the Blight.

Overall, it seems like an insult to Alistair, Duncan, and the other Grey Wardens that you would want to keep Loghain alive. I say, Loghain deserves execution for the trouble and false accusations he's given the wardens; and if you do recruit Loghain, you deserve to be abandoned by Alistair because he's pissed and doesn't want to fight beside a traitor.

Hear! Hear! My view entirely.

[errant_knight]

See, my reaction to what Riordan had to say was 'What? Are you nuts?!", so Alistair and I never had an issue. And that's the one time I dueled Loghain myself. Usually, I let Alistair do it just to make him happy, and we don't have all this needless discussion.

[Mirthadrond]

errant_knight wrote...

See, my reaction to what Riordan had to say was 'What? Are you nuts?!", so Alistair and I never had an issue. And that's the one time I dueled Loghain myself. Usually, I let Alistair do it just to make him happy, and we don't have all this needless discussion.

Oh yeah!  That was definitely my 1st reaction, but just before I clicked the "the SOB dies now..." option, I was like...  wait a second..........???

Why in the *bleep* would Riordan want me to spare him?

So... my curiousity got the better of me and I clicked:  "ok, I'll listen to your proposal senior Grey Warden, whom I should respect."

WARNING WARNING...... SLIPPERY SLOPE APPROACHING...  PROCEED WITH CAUUUUU  AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Holy crap I just lost my best friend!!!!!

He'll calm down.......  ?  Wont he??  

Alister? 

Alister?

Are you there?

[errant_knight]

Heh, luckily I disagreed with Riordan immediately, so I didn't end up in trouble. By that time, I was pretty much going with 'if Alistair doesn't like it, I'm probably not going to either', especially if he REALLY doesn't like it.

Except when he wants to fight Ser Cautherin, of course. I'd consider that option more fully if I wasn't always looking in the pack and thinking 'Dude, have you looked in here? We have 3 health poultices left, and we almost got killed by Howe's  knights just now....'

Modifié par errant_knight, 01 mars 2010 - 10:38 .

[Mirthadrond]

errant_knight wrote...

Heh, luckily I disagreed with Riordan immediately, so I didn't end up in trouble. By that time, I was pretty much going with 'if Alistair doesn't like it, I'm probably not going to either, especially if he REALLY doesn't like it.

My gut told me the same thing, but that damn rational side of my brain reminded me that Alister was not as smart or clear headed as my Mabari......  something to consider...

[CalJones]

Gilsa wrote...

I found a video you can just watch instead. The Anora/Loghain conversation is at the 1:55 mark.

Ugh. I did execute Loghain in my first game and it made me feel terrible (worse than slaughtering the Dalish with the werewolves, or the mages in the Circle) but I was playing with a male character in that game and had Alistair marry Anora. After watching that, I'm never making him king on his own - that video made me really hate him.

Since then I've always recruited Loghain. I always like to give characters a chance to redeem themselves - same reason I always get Sten out of his cage, or recruit Sarevok in Throne of Bhaal. I'm kind of a softy like that.

But I am going for the Warden Commander achievement in my current game which means Loghain has to die again. Really dreading it and want to get it finished as soon as possible.  

Modifié par CalJones, 01 mars 2010 - 10:41 .

[errant_knight]

Mirthadrond wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Heh, luckily I disagreed with Riordan immediately, so I didn't end up in trouble. By that time, I was pretty much going with 'if Alistair doesn't like it, I'm probably not going to either, especially if he REALLY doesn't like it.

My gut told me the same thing, but that damn rational side of my brain reminded me that Alister was not as smart or clear headed as my Mabari......  something to consider...

Ah, but I've always considered slights on Alistair's intelligence to be either pure mean on Morrigan's part, or manipulation by people like Eamon who didn't want him to think he had a right to more than being pushed around. Stupid people aren't as witty as Alistair. They just don't have it in them.

[Mirthadrond]

errant_knight wrote...

Mirthadrond wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Heh, luckily I disagreed with Riordan immediately, so I didn't end up in trouble. By that time, I was pretty much going with 'if Alistair doesn't like it, I'm probably not going to either, especially if he REALLY doesn't like it.

My gut told me the same thing, but that damn rational side of my brain reminded me that Alister was not as smart or clear headed as my Mabari......  something to consider...

Ah, but I've always considered slights on Alistair's intelligence to be either pure mean on Morrigan's part, or manipulation by people like Eamon who didn't want him to think he had a right to more than being pushed around. Stupid people aren't as witty as Alistair. They just don't have it in them.

Well, I can completely agree with you there.

I was just joking about Alister being stupid.  I didn't really mean it.

He is a Royal Bastard however....   that I'll never try and take away from him.

[Darkannex]

My annoyance with Alistair has only grown since I spared Loghain at one point. He has placed my Warden in charge-never wanting to lead. He saddled me- a green recruit with barely the Chalice from my lips with the task of raising an army. And he does so entirely without much input...other than telling me that he's Maric's bastard AFTER we get to Redcliffe.



I get the trauma. My HNF just had her whole family killed. Alistair was a GW for 6 months, I was a Cousland for how many YEARS? It is the fallacy of Alistair. He allows his emotions to run rampant and focuses less on the Blight and more on his personal revenge.



If a senior warden showed up and told me that it would be wise to do something-wisdom would dictate he should be listened to. Riordan knows more than Alistair and I put together-and while I understand the bitter pill....Alistair merely never grows up. In his own way he must have his fairytale ending.



I remember Mr. Gaider mentioning that this was a betrayal of everything Alistair holds dear. He does not want Loghain as a compartriot and brother. He does not want him to die with honor. I can respect that. But it was Alistair himself that said that GW do what is needed to end the Blight. And that their means are not always the most honorable.



I still cannot help but think that if Duncan were alive, he would agree with Riordan. Because practicality demanded it. There are 3 GW in Fereldan. Any more can only bolster the chances of ending the Blight.



I now sneer openly when I choose to let Alistair execute Loghain. Because he tells Anora that "someone has to take the Blight seriously" and yet those are words. In the end-he has his own axe to grind above ending the Blight. And only Loghain's dead body allows him to focus on the real and immediate threat to Fereldan.



I make Alistair fight Loghain now, because there's no chance for Riordan to speak up. I would choose his logic over Alistair's pissy fit anyday.

[Alandros]

Alistair ditching at that moment proves that he isn't willing to sacrifice what is needed to succeed (such as his pride in this case). I like his character quite a bit, though in my HMN playthrough in which I married Anora (and I wasn't going to let him take my King spot I ditched him in favor of keeping Loghain. Alistair should pull his head out of his a** and realize that every resource is needed. Letting Loghain die that easily is a cop out for Loghain, he should earn his liberation of death, he should spend every moment from then on helping the Wardens to repay at least some of the debt he owes him.



I do think this was true to the Alistair character, though I guess one could argue a hardened Alistair should have another option than just be king or leave (maybe he can serve in the siege in some other way, maybe backup Riordan or something). The non-hardened Alistair is a bit of a whiny pansy spoiled boy. He doesn't like Loghain so he'll throw a hissy fit, beat his fists to the ground and cry until you give in or he leaves. I think it fits. He's a great character even with his softer version but that softer version also has that flaw, which makes him feel more realistic.

[FireDragon076]

Alistair isn't "angry" with Loghain. He wants vengance, he wants blood. That is not anger, that is hatred. If you deny him this, he "doesn't let you down", it is you who let him down. Take a perspective from his eyes for just a second. If someone betrayed your brother (yes it was not the best relationship, but Alistair still cared for him as seen in RTO) and ended his life, you are gonna want their head. He needs his pound of flesh, I say let him have it.

[Aynslie]

errant_knight wrote... 

That alone would be enough to make it impossible for Alistair to accept, but when you add his personal hatred, the fact that he's been telling you from day one the justice he requires, that you know this and choose to do otherwise.... It's a total betrayal, and you're asking him to serve sid by side with this man. It's the same as asking the PC to serve alongside Howe because it might be handy later.

Yep.  If you were willing to spare Loghain, might as well spare Howe, Bhelen, and the Arl of Denerim's son for their respective PCs.  I had always given Alistair the honor of dueling Loghain and he doesn't hesitate for a moment in cutting the sobs head off.  The first time I dueled him, and Riordian came up with that stupid plan I about choked.   I was on my HN and couldn't justify sparing Loghain while I just killed Howe a few hours earlier.  It is personal with Alistair and being so late in the game I really DIDN'T want a new character that hadn't been able to lvl.  My Alistair is a monster on the battlefield no way I'm trading him.

[Darkannex]

If Riordan had thought Howe worth the Joining, I might have had to pause. My Cousland did not seek vengeance, understanding that all things would work out in the end as they needed to. That and I believed Alistair when he said the priority was the Blight. I didn't realize his priorities were 1. vengeance and 2. the Blight. I'll be sure to make sure we're straight on that in the future.

[SurelyForth]

Darkannex wrote...


I still cannot help but think that if Duncan were alive, he would agree with Riordan. Because practicality demanded it. There are 3 GW in Fereldan. Any more can only bolster the chances of ending the Blight.
 

Duncan would totally agree with Riordan and that's the rub. Alistair worshiped Duncan because Duncan saved him from a life he hated, and Ostagar happened while he was still in the honeymoon phase of his time in the Wardens/with Duncan. Alistair is not the sort of person who agrees that the ends always justifies the means and I think he would have been disillusioned in fairly short order at the lengths that Duncan would be willing to go through to end the Blight. Whether he would suffer silently or become a harder person is anyone's guess, but his ideal of the Grey Wardens has no room for someone like Loghain, who isn't just a murderer and a war criminal but the reason he and the PC are in the situation they're in to begin with.

If Riordan had thought Howe worth the Joining, I might have had to pause. My Cousland did not seek vengeance, understanding that all things would work out in the end as they needed to. That and I believed Alistair when he said the priority was the Blight. I didn't realize his priorities were 1. vengeance and 2. the Blight. I'll be sure to make sure we're straight on that in the future.

Well, to be fair, you're doing a pretty awesome job of defeating the Blight without Loghain and, with Riordan, you've already increased your numbers by 50%. And, besides, you have no guarantee that Loghain won't stab you in your sleep first chance he gets. He's not exactly of sound mind. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 01 mars 2010 - 11:54 .

[Darkannex]

Indeed. But you had no promise Sten would not likewise betray you, or Zhevran, or Morrigan. It's like the Legion of the Dead - the GW take all kinds and creates all kinds. Kinslayers, murderers, thieves, anyone that can pick up a sword and fight the Blight. That doesn't mean we have to have them over for tea and crumpets.

[SurelyForth]

Darkannex wrote...

Indeed. But you had no promise Sten would not likewise betray you, or Zhevran, or Morrigan. It's like the Legion of the Dead - the GW take all kinds and creates all kinds. Kinslayers, murderers, thieves, anyone that can pick up a sword and fight the Blight. That doesn't mean we have to have them over for tea and crumpets.

None of the companions have committed the sort of crimes Loghain has- between Ostagar, trying to kill or imprison anyone who might know what really happened at Ostagar, torturing innocents, selling the elves, and poisoning Eamon, he's been party to a lot of horrific crimes. I get that he hates Orlesians, but he associates the Wardens with Orlais and there is nothing that happens before or during the Landsmeet to indicate that he is going to get any less paranoid about Orlais and your "connection" to Orlais. 

[Darkannex]

Except in the end- Riordan says that Taint calls to Taint. Once Loghain has gone through the joining he will ultimately end up doing battle with the Darkspawn. It's inevitable. Just because he's a GW doesn't mean he's my bestest bud in the whole world. What it DOES mean is that he has forfeited all titles and courtly influence. He says it himself that he is no longer a Teyrn. His old life ends as much as any other GW.



Does that mean all of a sudden I throw a slumber party and start doing his nails? No. But he is a warrior as much as I am. He has acknowledged the Blight as real. At the end of the day, in his own twisted way he has acted for Fereldan. You can understand that without condoning it. Once through the Joining he is trapped and dying and he knows it. Once he senses the DS as a GW does-all his Orlesian delusions cannot blind him from the Archdemon staring at him.



No, I've no doubt that he will help finish the Blight off. Afterwards...that is another tale. I would be worried afterwards what he might attempt. But we've no reason to believe we'll survive to that point anyway.



I guess what I'm trying to say, in my convoluted way...is that I understand why Alistair through his hissy fit. I respect that it is true to his character. I understand he acts out emotionally and regrets later his actions. But that is the symptom of a child. And Alistair is definitely that in many ways. He can be endearing, charming, lovely and principled. But ultimately he is as flawed as we all are. That is good writing.



That does not mean that his reaction serves to end the Blight-Im not sure how he thinks throwing his towel in and leaving the rink brings Fereldan any closer to that. But ultimately I think he knows that too. Because he ends up an embittered king, or a sloven drunkard.

[SurelyForth]

Darkannex wrote...

Except in the end- Riordan says that Taint calls to Taint. Once Loghain has gone through the joining he will ultimately end up doing battle with the Darkspawn. It's inevitable. Just because he's a GW doesn't mean he's my bestest bud in the whole world. What it DOES mean is that he has forfeited all titles and courtly influence. He says it himself that he is no longer a Teyrn. His old life ends as much as any other GW.

Does that mean all of a sudden I throw a slumber party and start doing his nails? No. But he is a warrior as much as I am. He has acknowledged the Blight as real. At the end of the day, in his own twisted way he has acted for Fereldan. You can understand that without condoning it. Once through the Joining he is trapped and dying and he knows it. Once he senses the DS as a GW does-all his Orlesian delusions cannot blind him from the Archdemon staring at him.

Yeah, but there isn't a logical line to be drawn from "You are under the influence of Orlais" to "My new goal is killing darkspawn". You don't get that kind of info before the Landsmeet; you have no way of knowing for sure that it won't turn out to be a colossal mistake on your part. With Alistair, you at least know what you're getting (and I agree that he is a flawed character, but he's a flawed character that my PC's trust).

Modifié par SurelyForth, 02 mars 2010 - 12:26 .

[Darkannex]

I think Riordan does say about the Taint calling the Taint at the Landsmeet-I could be wrong as I've actually only spared Loghain one time But if not-there's still the fact that once he Joins, he will have irrefutable proof that the Blight is real and that the AD is hungry. He'll have dreams just as I did. He cannot deny that.



He was already convinced of the Blight's reality at the Landsmeet, he told Wulff that - so there is a straight line from his belief that the Blight is the more immediate threat. The enemy of my enemy and all that...



And with every other choice in the game-it can be disastrous or it can be needed. My decision was based on Riordan's advanced Warden knowledge. It was information that Ali and I could not match combined. If he thought it a good idea-then he must have had good and disinterested cause. Alistair and myself were too close to the problem - he at least had perspective.



If, say Anora had suggested it...I would have laughed at her. Or even Eamon for political reasons. But it was Riordan. And while we had been doing a good job up to that point, we had not had to deal with the Archdemon til then either.

[errant_knight]

Mirthadrond wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Mirthadrond wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Heh, luckily I disagreed with Riordan immediately, so I didn't end up in trouble. By that time, I was pretty much going with 'if Alistair doesn't like it, I'm probably not going to either, especially if he REALLY doesn't like it.

My gut told me the same thing, but that damn rational side of my brain reminded me that Alister was not as smart or clear headed as my Mabari......  something to consider...

Ah, but I've always considered slights on Alistair's intelligence to be either pure mean on Morrigan's part, or manipulation by people like Eamon who didn't want him to think he had a right to more than being pushed around. Stupid people aren't as witty as Alistair. They just don't have it in them.

Well, I can completely agree with you there.

I was just joking about Alister being stupid.  I didn't really mean it.

He is a Royal Bastard however....   that I'll never try and take away from him.

Heh, indeed not! I would neither take the throne from him, nor his admirable ability to chop people into little tiny pieces verbally--I do prefer that it's not directed at me, however.

Modifié par errant_knight, 02 mars 2010 - 12:45 .

[Mirthadrond]

Darkannex wrote...

My decision was based on Riordan's advanced Warden knowledge. It was information that Ali and I could not match combined. If he thought it a good idea-then he must have had good and disinterested cause. Alistair and myself were too close to the problem - he at least had perspective.

If, say Anora had suggested it...I would have laughed at her. Or even Eamon for political reasons. But it was Riordan. And while we had been doing a good job up to that point, we had not had to deal with the Archdemon til then either.

Indeed - Riordan had a perspective that the rest of us did not have, even after being imprisoned and tortured.

That says a LOT about his character.


This discussion has been most interesting.  While initally I was repulsed by the idea of losing my buddy / lover Alister, I'm now thinking about the whole situation differently.

Alister must make his own decisions, and live with them.  I can even see how  I placed my friendship and relationship with Alister BEFORE the blight.

Tsk tsk... shame on me.  Not very Grey Wardeny of me....

[Monica21]

Darkannex wrote...

If Riordan had thought Howe worth the Joining, I might have had to pause. My Cousland did not seek vengeance, understanding that all things would work out in the end as they needed to. That and I believed Alistair when he said the priority was the Blight. I didn't realize his priorities were 1. vengeance and 2. the Blight. I'll be sure to make sure we're straight on that in the future.

My Cousland did seek vengeance. She didn't actively seek out Howe (and neither did Alistair actively seek out Loghain), but when the opportunity for killing Howe arrived, she did it. Just the same way that the opportunity for killing Loghain presented itself and Alistair took it. If he'd tried to talk me out of it and using Howe as another GW body, I would have been pissed too.

As for Alistair saying that Grey Wardens do what they have to, it's easy to talk about in abstract, but not so easy when the decision is right in front of you. Alistair tells you that the Wardens are not heroes, but it's pretty clear that even though he says it, he doesn't really believe it.

[Darkannex]

I'd totally be in for added dialogue to be added if you chose to answer 'vengefully' or not XD be nice if Ali called you a hypocrite

[errant_knight]

I have to wonder, if Riordan thought it was so all fired important, why only Loghain? Why not conscript every available body at landsmeet until the chalice was empty? That doesn't add up.

[Mirthadrond]

errant_knight wrote...

I have to wonder, if Riordan thought it was so all fired important, why only Loghain? Why not conscript every available body at landsmeet until the chalice was empty? That doesn't add up.

hmmmmmmmmm....  interesting point.. 

We could have conscripted that whole bloody room.... provided we had enough blood to go around...

Personally -  I would have suggested Ser Cauthrine, since she is pretty badassed. 
Of course, she 'might' be laying in a pool of her own blood.....   not sure a dark taint transfusion is gonna work at that point....