401 réponses à ce sujet

[Sialater]

Joisan wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Married 7 years, together 10.  I wouldn't ask questions.  I trust him.  I'd want a damned good explanation, but until proven otherwise, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and back him 100%

And I believe you have it backwards.  I think you were calling ME a lapdog, not my "LI."

Even if he had joined the Taliban or the Ku Klux Klan?  You would honestly give him the benefit of the doubt?

I don't honestly see a way to answer this without getting myself attacked personally.  I shouldn't have anwered that way. 

[Nyx]

Joisan wrote...

That's exactly why I love Kaidan, though!  Sure, angst-filled romances a la Carth from KotOR can be wonderfully touching, and don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of that romance.  It was believable and incredibly powerful given his character and the nature of the game world.  That can get old after a while, though, and let's face it, exactly how often does a romance like that come along in the real world?  Not very.  For me, Kaidan was a breath of fresh air after Carth.  His relationship with Shepard struck me as the sort of romance you might actually see in the real world, and was just as touching and powerful in its way.  Even Horizon... I wouldn't want that scene to have happened any other way, except maybe a better paragon response than the "how've you been?"  What was missing was good, in-depth followup to that showing how Kaidan and Shepard sort out what's happened.  A gap which fanfic writers have not hesitated to fill.

That was actually what I was getting at. Romances with deep feelings -- and it doesn't have to be from extremely traumatic storylines. Kaidan and Shepard had the chance to plow through adversity together and develop their bond, but I didn't get the same impression from Jacob's dialogue. It was good for a casual interest, though if you're competing against people with greater chemistry (or an intense relationship), it is not a winning race. The devs tried to add the chemistry to Jacob's romance, but since there wasn't any solid experience to hold that up, it seemed forced. They certainly talked about their inner demons, though it turned out compartively superficial rather than an "Ah-ha!" moment in character development.

For example, from the way ME2 is currently set up, I'd say Miranda and Jacob have a lot more going for them as a couple (especially when you include their pre & current Cerberus history), over Shepard.

Modifié par Nyx.Aeterna, 01 mars 2010 - 03:08 .

[Eshaye]

The Ash/Kaidan relationship isn't 10 years old, a relationship of that length and one that has just begun is MILES different and even then.



If I saw my husband of 10 years go down in flames and then reappear with people I hated, I'd have some serious issues, anger and confusion and demand answers. And on Horizon Shepard wasn't exactly glib either. XD

[redshift87]

Kaidan all the way. I thought Jacob fit way better as Shep's straight-talking soldier buddy.

[ERJAK2]

revan11exile wrote...

 For me i pick Jacob mainly because when i play with my male shepard i always think that the closest person to shepard is Jacob and i think that BioWare made the female shepard flirt with Jacob because it was meant to be.

Liara. End of discussion.

[Sharn01]

Sialater wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

 I don't understand people that are all pissed off at Ash or Kaidan over Horizon and/or the email... Think about it for one second, if YOUR love disappeared for 2 years and shows up almost out of nowhere, what your reaction be? 

Sure, honey, where do I sign up?  How can I help?  What do you need?

You dont want a relationship then, you want a lap dog.

I wouldn't ask questions.  I trust him.  I'd want a damned good explanation, but until proven otherwise, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and back him 100%

And I believe you have it backwards.  I think you were calling ME a lapdog, not my "LI."

And let me elaborate.  I understand their reaction.  My Shep's are also entitled to theirs, whatever it may be.

But you can't call it cheating when you've clearly been dumped.

You would not ask question's but would want a good explanation?  Contradiction much?

Shepard does not explain himself/herself to Kaiden/Ashley, does not try to explain how s/he feel's to Liara either, the game does not give you the option so if you want to blame someone blame the writer's who decided Shepard can not say the most logical thing's in these situation's. 

The action's of the NPC's where appropriate with what little dialog was given as a choice for Shepard.  I blame poor writing, everyone else want's to blame the character's who never had a reason to say anything else because Shepard never says anything else for them to respond to.

Modifié par Sharn01, 01 mars 2010 - 03:09 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Joisan wrote...

Even if he had joined the Taliban or the Ku Klux Klan?  You would honestly give him the benefit of the doubt?

It's just a bit more complicated than that.

It's like, your soldier boyfriend is MIA, and you're going to investigate the disappearances of whole villages in the Middle East, and then you find the Taliban there kidnapping children and blowing stuff up, and then your boyfriend shows up with North Korean soldiers and rescues the childrens and takes out the Taliban. Would you say 'YOU TRAITOR' because he's working with North Koreans, or would you wait to find out why before snapping his head off?

EDIT: I realize the analogy makes little sense with real world politics or whatever, but... yeah. There's no real analog for this situation.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 01 mars 2010 - 03:10 .

[Sialater]

We have to work with what we're given. The realm of "I wanted it to go differently" is where fanfic comes in.

[Sialater]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Joisan wrote...

Even if he had joined the Taliban or the Ku Klux Klan?  You would honestly give him the benefit of the doubt?

It's just a bit more complicated than that.

It's like, your soldier boyfriend is MIA, and you're going to investigate the disappearances of whole villages in the Middle East, and then you find the Taliban there kidnapping children and blowing stuff up, and then your boyfriend shows up with North Korean soldiers and rescues the childrens and takes out the Taliban. Would you say 'YOU TRAITOR' because he's working with North Koreans, or would you wait to find out why before snapping his head off?

EDIT: I realize the analogy makes little sense with real world politics or whatever, but... yeah. There's no real analog for this situation.

That's actually a lot closer than just randomly joining enemy groups for the heck of it.  Thank you. 

[Sharn01]

What your given is them saying they will never work with Cerberus, and Shepard picking his/her nose as they walk away.

[syllogi]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Joisan wrote...

Even if he had joined the Taliban or the Ku Klux Klan?  You would honestly give him the benefit of the doubt?

It's just a bit more complicated than that.

It's like, your soldier boyfriend is MIA, and you're going to investigate the disappearances of whole villages in the Middle East, and then you find the Taliban there kidnapping children and blowing stuff up, and then your boyfriend shows up with North Korean soldiers and rescues the childrens and takes out the Taliban. Would you say 'YOU TRAITOR' because he's working with North Koreans, or would you wait to find out why before snapping his head off?

EDIT: I realize the analogy makes little sense with real world politics or whatever, but... yeah. There's no real analog for this situation.

What if you had personally been affected by the actions of North Koreans?  You know, like knowing Admiral Kahoku before he was murdered, or seeing Corporal Toombs blow his head off after killing a Cerberus scientist?  Would you understand his position a bit more if he had had those kind of personal interactions with the enemy that you joined?

[Joisan]

Nyx.Aeterna wrote...

That was actually what I was getting at. Romances with deep feelings -- and it doesn't have to be from extremely traumatic storylines. Kaidan and Shepard had the chance to plow through adversity together and develop their bond, but I didn't get the same impression from Jacob's dialogue. It was good for a casual interest, though if you're competing against people with greater chemistry (or an intense relationship), it is not a winning race. The devs tried to add the chemistry to Jacob's romance, but since there wasn't any solid experience to hold that up, it seemed forced. They certainly talked about their inner demons, though it turned out compartively superficial rather than an "Ah-ha!" moment in character development.

For example, from the way ME2 is currently set up, I'd say Miranda and Jacob have a lot more going for them as a couple (especially when you include their pre & current Cerberus history), over Shepard.

Okay, I see what you mean.  And this is exactly why I think Kaidan > Jacob.  For me, the scene by Shepard's locker during the lockdown on the Citadel was one of those "ah-ha" moments.  Kaidan is the one there to give her a shoulder when she needs one.  And then in the final romance scene when they both express their uncertainty about the mission.  Jacob's romance lacked such moments.

[Sialater]

Sharn01 wrote...


You would not ask question's but would want a good explanation?  Contradiction much?

Shepard does not explain himself/herself to Kaiden/Ashley, does not try to explain how s/he feel's to Liara either, the game does not give you the option so if you want to blame someone blame the writer's who decided Shepard can not say the most logical thing's in these situation's. 

The action's of the NPC's where appropriate with what little dialog was given as a choice for Shepard.  I blame poor writing, everyone else want's to blame the character's who never had a reason to say anything else because Shepard never says anything else for them to respond to.

Meh, I never claim to be totally consistent.  I wouldn't yell at them in public, though.  That's a discussion for somewhere not in front of other people.

I was actually frantic to save Kaiden on Horizon the first time through.  I knew he wouldn't be joining my Shep, but I was almost sure Bioware was going to have them be on the Collector ship if you screwed up.    So yeah, "Hi, how are you?" Totally lame writing in that respect.

[Joisan]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
It's just a bit more complicated than that.

It's like, your soldier boyfriend is MIA, and you're going to investigate the disappearances of whole villages in the Middle East, and then you find the Taliban there kidnapping children and blowing stuff up, and then your boyfriend shows up with North Korean soldiers and rescues the childrens and takes out the Taliban. Would you say 'YOU TRAITOR' because he's working with North Koreans, or would you wait to find out why before snapping his head off?

EDIT: I realize the analogy makes little sense with real world politics or whatever, but... yeah. There's no real analog for this situation.

Point taken, but at least for me, North Korea just isn't... evil enough... to compare to Cerberus.  Hence my use of the Taliban or the Ku Klux Klan as an example.

[ThatDancingTurian]

TeenZombie wrote...

What if you had personally been affected by the actions of North Koreans?  You know, like knowing Admiral Kahoku before he was murdered, or seeing Corporal Toombs blow his head off after killing a Cerberus scientist?  Would you understand his position a bit more if he had had those kind of personal interactions with the enemy that you joined?

If he had seen it too (and in the case of Sole Survivor, been very personally effected by it), I'd give him even more the benefit of the doubt. Because if I knew him as well as Kaidan/Ash supposedly did, and if he was a bloody hero the way Shepard was at the end of ME1, then I'd know he wouldn't have been doing it except for a really good reason.

[Sialater]

TeenZombie wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Joisan wrote...

Even if he had joined the Taliban or the Ku Klux Klan?  You would honestly give him the benefit of the doubt?

It's just a bit more complicated than that.

It's like, your soldier boyfriend is MIA, and you're going to investigate the disappearances of whole villages in the Middle East, and then you find the Taliban there kidnapping children and blowing stuff up, and then your boyfriend shows up with North Korean soldiers and rescues the childrens and takes out the Taliban. Would you say 'YOU TRAITOR' because he's working with North Koreans, or would you wait to find out why before snapping his head off?

EDIT: I realize the analogy makes little sense with real world politics or whatever, but... yeah. There's no real analog for this situation.

What if you had personally been affected by the actions of North Koreans?  You know, like knowing Admiral Kahoku before he was murdered, or seeing Corporal Toombs blow his head off after killing a Cerberus scientist?  Would you understand his position a bit more if he had had those kind of personal interactions with the enemy that you joined?

But you don't actually have a choice in joining, and you're not given a chance to say that.

[The Angry One]

What you have to consider is that Kaidan does not find out you're working with Cerberus when he meets you, it's CONFIRMATION.

He already heard the rumours because the rat bastard TIM had been circulating info that Shep was working for Cerberus for a while prior to that. So he's heard about it and has to deal with the fact that Shep's alive *and* working for the enemy and has to sit there and let it stew in his head without being able to talk to Shep and then she turns up working for Cerberus.



That'd be difficult for me to accept, that's all I know.

[Sialater]

But the aliens are OK with it and the humans aren't?

[Sharn01]

I do not think Garrus and Tali where privy to that information. They are also both in situation's where Shepard is helping them and they have no where else to go, Shep has plenty of time to explain things to them and prove s/he is still the same Shep.

The council and alliance have both been fed false information for almost 2 years that Shep was not dead and working with Cerberus.

This is why I am far more mad at the shoddy job done with Liara, she knew everything that happened and they still came up with lame dialog and poor excuses for keeping the character's apart.  If they had good reason's, they sure did not let the player in on it.

Modifié par Sharn01, 01 mars 2010 - 03:25 .

[The Angry One]

Sialater wrote...

But the aliens are OK with it and the humans aren't?

Tali isn't okay with it, she only settles down because the Normandy isn't exactly filled with Cerberus hardliners. Garrus has nothing to lose, neither does Thane, Grunt is basically a kid, Mordin views it more as "interesting" than anything else.
Kaidan and Ashley on the other hand do have a lot to lose, their career with the Alliance, their self-respect. They've fought Cerberus and know what they're like, they just - at that moment - can't take the fact that you're with them.
Again, neither does Tali, the first time you encounter her she blows Shep off. The difference between Tali and Kai/Ash is that the latter are never given a second encounter to think more clearly and be asked to join.

[crimsonrhodelia]

The Angry One wrote...

What you have to consider is that Kaidan does not find out you're working with Cerberus when he meets you, it's CONFIRMATION.
He already heard the rumours because the rat bastard TIM had been circulating info that Shep was working for Cerberus for a while prior to that. So he's heard about it and has to deal with the fact that Shep's alive *and* working for the enemy and has to sit there and let it stew in his head without being able to talk to Shep and then she turns up working for Cerberus.

That'd be difficult for me to accept, that's all I know.

Exactly, and of course the poor guy has had no idea that you hadn't just pretended to be dead, leaving him heartbroken and hung out to dry for the last two years. He's been questioning everything about what he thought he had with you since the rumours of you being alive first started - if he ever meant anything to you at all, why didn't you contact him? He doesn't know that you weren't physically capable of doing so until you tell him on Horizon.

Have to admit I did lol at the "*soothing voice* I've been clinically dead for the last two years" dialogue option...hell of a response to "why didn't you return my phone calls?".

[The Angry One]

Yeah the limited dialog doesn't help, I wish there were an option to grab him by the shoulders and say "I was DEAD! I couldn't do anything! Don't you think the first thing I thought of was contacting you? I couldn't even do that, I had no idea where you were." and so on.

I wouldn't expect Kaidan to join at that point no matter what I said - it just wouldn't fit.

But damn there should've been a followup scene at some point.

[Nyx]

Joisan wrote...

Okay, I see what you mean.  And this is exactly why I think Kaidan > Jacob.  For me, the scene by Shepard's locker during the lockdown on the Citadel was one of those "ah-ha" moments.  Kaidan is the one there to give her a shoulder when she needs one.  And then in the final romance scene when they both express their uncertainty about the mission.  Jacob's romance lacked such moments.

Spot on. And I loved those scenes! As sappy as it may be, I thought Kaidan's line about Shepard making him feel human (and then later making her eat her own words about not giving up) was very memorable. Completely worth all the trouble my Shep went through to get him to admit his problems. While I enjoyed flirting with Garrus and hearing Thane call Shep, "Siha", I still think the Kaidan romance is the best written one of the five FemShep choices. (And Alistair is arguably the best of Bioware's LIs.)

Modifié par Nyx.Aeterna, 01 mars 2010 - 03:31 .

[Joisan]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah the limited dialog doesn't help, I wish there were an option to grab him by the shoulders and say "I was DEAD! I couldn't do anything! Don't you think the first thing I thought of was contacting you? I couldn't even do that, I had no idea where you were." and so on.
I wouldn't expect Kaidan to join at that point no matter what I said - it just wouldn't fit.
But damn there should've been a followup scene at some point.

I for one am not going to argue that.  And the blame there falls squarely on Bioware's shoulders.

[crimsonrhodelia]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah the limited dialog doesn't help, I wish there were an option to grab him by the shoulders and say "I was DEAD! I couldn't do anything! Don't you think the first thing I thought of was contacting you? I couldn't even do that, I had no idea where you were." and so on.
I wouldn't expect Kaidan to join at that point no matter what I said - it just wouldn't fit.
But damn there should've been a followup scene at some point.

I'd have loved a futile "Wait, don't go!" sort of option as he's walking away, too (he'd have paused, maybe turned, but kept walking away all the same), but then I do love delicious, delicious angst. At least a bit more of a pause before "I've had enough this colony!" Shep isn't made of stone, you know...