113 réponses à ce sujet

[Singu]

@ Mallissin



Conc shot knocks the target out of line of fire most of the time. Pull lifts them clear for all your squaddies to perforate them so you can focus on the next target with a barrier. And if you got miranda in your party(or if you're an adept/sentinel) it will be a nice area of effect explosion when she warps a levitated target - synergy ftw.



Pull is by far the squad ability with the shortest cooldown next to throw - and a husk with no armor is instantly killed the moment it's pulled off the ground. Conc shot does the same thing, but it has a much longer cooldown.



In the end though it's down to your personal preference in how you play the game. And I'm not gonna strain myself in trying to sell an ability that you don't use.

[Mallissin]

dreman9999 wrote...
The problem with that is that on higher difficulties the husk are armor so it will take sometime use the concussive shot. And you have no who can take out a big group or help take out the scions.

Incinerate removes armor. Concussive shot removes health. Husks dead. Works well on Varren as well.

The area effect combo served me well on the Grunt's loyalty mission, the Reaper and Swarm part of the finale while on Insanity.

[Mallissin]

Singu wrote...

@ Mallissin

Conc shot knocks the target out of line of fire most of the time. Pull lifts them clear for all your squaddies to perforate them so you can focus on the next target with a barrier. And if you got miranda in your party(or if you're an adept/sentinel) it will be a nice area of effect explosion when she warps a levitated target - synergy ftw.

Pull is by far the squad ability with the shortest cooldown next to throw - and a husk with no armor is instantly killed the moment it's pulled off the ground. Conc shot does the same thing, but it has a much longer cooldown.

In the end though it's down to your personal preference in how you play the game. And I'm not gonna strain myself in trying to sell an ability that you don't use.

Yah, I agree that the three second recharge of pull is nice, but again you need to remove barrier, shields and armor to use it. The pull/warp combo to finish a group of enemies is Pull's only saving grace, but even then Warp still has a 6 or 9 second recharge to Pull's 3. So, it seems like a wasted effort at crowd control.

It also annoys me that Pull and Throw is three second recharge for party members. Almost every other power has double the recharge for party members. I guess they did it this way for folks like you who enjoy tossing the enemy around for fun, but you don't do that kind of stuff on Insanity unless you enjoy dying too.

Which really goes back to proving our point that Jack and Jacob are the worst choice for a Collector mission on Insanity.

Modifié par Mallissin, 01 mars 2010 - 02:36 .

[Singu]

Mallissin wrote...

Singu wrote...

@ Mallissin

Conc shot knocks the target out of line of fire most of the time. Pull lifts them clear for all your squaddies to perforate them so you can focus on the next target with a barrier. And if you got miranda in your party(or if you're an adept/sentinel) it will be a nice area of effect explosion when she warps a levitated target - synergy ftw.

Pull is by far the squad ability with the shortest cooldown next to throw - and a husk with no armor is instantly killed the moment it's pulled off the ground. Conc shot does the same thing, but it has a much longer cooldown.

In the end though it's down to your personal preference in how you play the game. And I'm not gonna strain myself in trying to sell an ability that you don't use.

Yah, I agree that the three second recharge of pull is nice, but again you need to remove barrier, shields and armor to use it. The pull/warp combo to finish a group of enemies is Pull's only saving grace, but even then Warp still has a 6 or 9 second recharge to Pull's 3. So, it seems like a wasted effort at crowd control.

It also annoys me that Pull and Throw is three second recharge for party members. Almost every other power has double the recharge for party members. I guess they did it this way for folks like you who enjoy tossing the enemy around for fun, but you don't do that kind of stuff on Insanity unless you enjoy dying too.

Which really goes back to proving our point that Jack and Jacob are the worst choice for a Collector mission on Insanity.

Nice to see that you agree with yourself at least. IMO 'tossing the enemy around' is the quickest way of killing stuff in this game at insanity difficulty. You clearly disagree. But don't say that I enjoy killing myself by embracing the awesomeness of pull. To put it short, it incapasitates a target for the duration of pull and most of the time drags it completely out of cover leaving your squaddies 100% chance to hit it as opposed to something like 10% while they're behind cover. Yes, it involves a fair bit of micromanagment - but to toss it aside just because it doesn't seem to work for you is not very productive either.

My hitrate on stuff that has a barrier up and ducks in and out of cover is a hell of a lot better than my squadmate - so I manage their targeting on to stuff that's defenceless and floating around while I strip the barriers off the next target and pull is still on a cooldown. They don't float unharmed past my cover and shoot me in the back - they always die or land with little to no health left. If they're still a threat when they land I just re-pull them. And that's why I think that pull > conc shot.

Modifié par Singu, 01 mars 2010 - 03:15 .

[thisisme8]

Ok fellas. I've decided to go with:

Jack

4 Heavy Shockwave

3 Character Passive

Garrus

4 Area Concussive Shot

3 Character Passive



Jacob's Pull and Squad Incendiary made him a little OP. And that's not a joke. I already tried and he was a little too helpful. Garrus' Concussive Shot will do ok damage vs. barriers, but it will only knock down enemies in health, as opposed to lifting them and granting x2 damage. Not only that, but I've noticed, along with a few others, that Squadmates seem to be 100% accurate and quicker to shoot vs. Pulled or frozen enemies.

[SmokePants]

I don't know. It always felt to me like an enemy without shields, armor, or barrier was as good as dead. Even on Insanity. I never sweated the techniques that were only useful after they were brought down. What's the point? Just headshot and be done with them. No need to get cute.

And what good does Jacob's incendiary ammo do when he's rocking a shotty? His range is awful.

Garrus isn't going to seem very useless when you're fighting the Praetorian and have to bring down his barrier over and over.

[Average Gatsby]

Jack and Garrus. Especially if you haven't done their loyalty missions yet. Zaeed at least will do more weapon damage than garrus. Jack's pull will not be great if it doesn't have a warp to back you up. Neither of them have strong anti barrier or anti armor abilities.



And the people badmouthing Mordin. I LOL at you and point you to the 4.5 cryo blast cooldown and AOE incinerate. And also that his passive, per level, gives him the second best survivability out of all the starting characters except Grunt.

[Mallissin]

SmokePants wrote...

I don't know. It always felt to me like an enemy without shields, armor, or barrier was as good as dead. Even on Insanity. I never sweated the techniques that were only useful after they were brought down. What's the point? Just headshot and be done with them. No need to get cute.

And what good does Jacob's incendiary ammo do when he's rocking a shotty? His range is awful.

Garrus isn't going to seem very useless when you're fighting the Praetorian and have to bring down his barrier over and over.

I agree. On Insanity, shields/armor/barrier are MORE than 50% of enemy's defenses in almost every case (except the bugs I think). So why destroy 75-90% of a Collector's defenses and use Pull? Another few shots and the things dead anyway. I have a feeling that Singu plays a Soldier, which has plenty of ammo to waste among all the weapons.

And I also agree that Garrus is more helpful than Jacob because of the concussive shot and his weapons are longer distance (assault/sniper).

[Atmosfear3]

Average Gatsby wrote...

Jack and Garrus. Especially if you haven't done their loyalty missions yet. Zaeed at least will do more weapon damage than garrus. Jack's pull will not be great if it doesn't have a warp to back you up. Neither of them have strong anti barrier or anti armor abilities.

And the people badmouthing Mordin. I LOL at you and point you to the 4.5 cryo blast cooldown and AOE incinerate. And also that his passive, per level, gives him the second best survivability out of all the starting characters except Grunt.

What?! Who dares sleep on Mordin? Hes a beast against armor and surviving (well, better than the rest minus Grunt at least).

[Mallissin]

Average Gatsby wrote...
And the people badmouthing Mordin. I LOL at you and point you to the 4.5 cryo blast cooldown and AOE incinerate. And also that his passive, per level, gives him the second best survivability out of all the starting characters except Grunt.

Mordin is always in my group when going up against Blood pack. Cryo blast to stop Krogan getting too close, Incinerate to knock off Krogran and Vorsha armor, with Neural shock later on to stun heavies or snipers.

He can also be good against husks if you have SMG upgrades and squad AP. I wish incendiary ammo stacked, since it would make SMG's even more powerful and Mordin/Miranda big hitters.

[thisisme8]

Mallissin wrote...

I agree. On Insanity, shields/armor/barrier are MORE than 50% of enemy's defenses in almost every case (except the bugs I think). So why destroy 75-90% of a Collector's defenses and use Pull? Another few shots and the things dead anyway. I have a feeling that Singu plays a Soldier, which has plenty of ammo to waste among all the weapons.

And I also agree that Garrus is more helpful than Jacob because of the concussive shot and his weapons are longer distance (assault/sniper).

You are incorrect.  Christina Norman has posted in the class and Builds forum refuting your claim on defenses.

As a matter of fact:
M-3 Predator - x1.5 damage vs. Armor
M-6 Carnifex - x1.5 damage vs. Armor
M-4 Shiriken - x1.5 damage vs. shields, barrier
M-9 Tempest - x1.5 damage vs. shields, barrier
All weapons - x1 damage vs. health

You will naturally be taking down defenses faster on non-boss (dual defense) enemies than you will health with just weapons fire.

[ZennExile]

thisisme8 wrote...

Making a quick video for the combat basics guide in my sig.  Wanted to know who the general population believes is the worst team possible (regardless of Shepard's class) to bring to Horizon.

"Regardless of Shepard's class" defeats your intentions before you begin.  Each squadmate is not unique.  The entire game is focused around team mechanics or combinations of biotic, tech, soldier skills.  If you ignore shepard's class you ignore the mechanics.

[thisisme8]

ZennExile wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Making a quick video for the combat basics guide in my sig.  Wanted to know who the general population believes is the worst team possible (regardless of Shepard's class) to bring to Horizon.

"Regardless of Shepard's class" defeats your intentions before you begin.  Each squadmate is not unique.  The entire game is focused around team mechanics or combinations of biotic, tech, soldier skills.  If you ignore shepard's class you ignore the mechanics.

I think you misunderstand.  The Combat Basics guide is about using basic combat strategies like assaulting, defending, flanking, bottlenecks, cover, high ground advantage or disadvantage, etc.  Not about how to win at ______ mission using _______ class and ________ teammates.  I can flank with my Adept in much the same manner that I can with my Soldier.  I can maneuver through positions and apply pressure at key locations with an Engineer in the same manner that I would with a Sentinel or Vanguard.  Ok, I'll take Vanguard back.  But it's a class all on its own.

The guide also puts emphasis on the team as a whole instead of individual member talents.

Edit:  History alone can show how basic strategy can remain constant through an ever-changing world of technology.

Modifié par thisisme8, 01 mars 2010 - 04:42 .

[Shanra]

I took Jack with me to this as my engineer, but I was only on Veteran. Didn't go too bad until the very end. Think I probably brought Miranda and Mordin on my second round.



I'd probably have to say Garrus, and Jack.

[Mallissin]

thisisme8 wrote...

You are incorrect.  Christina Norman has posted in the class and Builds forum refuting your claim on defenses.

As a matter of fact:
M-3 Predator - x1.5 damage vs. Armor
M-6 Carnifex - x1.5 damage vs. Armor
M-4 Shiriken - x1.5 damage vs. shields, barrier
M-9 Tempest - x1.5 damage vs. shields, barrier
All weapons - x1 damage vs. health

You will naturally be taking down defenses faster on non-boss (dual defense) enemies than you will health with just weapons fire.

Her thread doesn't refute anything I've said. I used her numbers earlier, talking about concussive shots. The fact remains that Collectors have more than 1.5 times more barrier/armor than health, making powers more efficient to use than ammo.

Next time, try making a logical argument and not just a "You're wrong, *copy/paste*".

Modifié par Mallissin, 01 mars 2010 - 05:12 .

[thisisme8]

Mallissin wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

You are incorrect.  Christina Norman has posted in the class and Builds forum refuting your claim on defenses.

As a matter of fact:
M-3 Predator - x1.5 damage vs. Armor
M-6 Carnifex - x1.5 damage vs. Armor
M-4 Shiriken - x1.5 damage vs. shields, barrier
M-9 Tempest - x1.5 damage vs. shields, barrier
All weapons - x1 damage vs. health

You will naturally be taking down defenses faster on non-boss (dual defense) enemies than you will health with just weapons fire.

Her thread doesn't refute anything I've said. I used her numbers earlier, talking about concussive shots. The fact remains that Collectors have more than 1.5 times more barrier/armor than health, making powers more efficient to use than ammo.

Next time, try making a logical argument and not just a "You're wrong, *copy/paste*".

I think you are referring to her Gameplay Data thread, where as I am referring to a post she made in one of the Vanguard threads where she talked about the defense to health ratio of enemies.

After reading Christina's post, several of us set out to test her statement and came to the conclusion that almost all enemies have equal amounts of health and defense.

If you have actual evidence that enemies have 1.5 more defense than health, I would like to see it and I will take back my claim.

Why post the weapon's defense damage modifiers?  The short version:

If most enemies have about equal amounts defense to health, then it is more efficient to reduce defense via weapons (which naturally do more damage to defense) and use powers against their health instead of using powers vs. defense and weapons against health.  Especially since almost every power works on health vs. the very few powers that will work against an enemy's particular defense.

[SmokePants]

thisisme8 wrote...

You are incorrect.  Christina Norman has posted in the class and Builds forum refuting your claim on defenses.

As a matter of fact:
M-3 Predator - x1.5 damage vs. Armor
M-6 Carnifex - x1.5 damage vs. Armor
M-4 Shiriken - x1.5 damage vs. shields, barrier
M-9 Tempest - x1.5 damage vs. shields, barrier
All weapons - x1 damage vs. health

You will naturally be taking down defenses faster on non-boss (dual defense) enemies than you will health with just weapons fire.

You make the mistake of assuming the enmies have the same amount of health that they do defense layers. I don't believe they do. Some have more health (husks)  some have more defense (Heavy mech). I'm not sure where the Collectors fall, but they really aren't a problem once their barrier is down.

Modifié par SmokePants, 01 mars 2010 - 05:50 .

[TheLostGenius]

 Jacob is fairly effective with his shotgun if he you have focused his abilities on gaining Inferno ammo. He eats Harbinger for you. Garrus is great...so lets see...Miranda is always helpful but is somewhat diminished because enemies have barriers and not shields...I'd say jack because all of her abilities require no barrier up, and your best team mates need to be able to handle powerful barriers.

[TheLostGenius]

Also "consensus"

[thisisme8]

SmokePants wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

You are incorrect.  Christina Norman has posted in the class and Builds forum refuting your claim on defenses.

As a matter of fact:
M-3 Predator - x1.5 damage vs. Armor
M-6 Carnifex - x1.5 damage vs. Armor
M-4 Shiriken - x1.5 damage vs. shields, barrier
M-9 Tempest - x1.5 damage vs. shields, barrier
All weapons - x1 damage vs. health

You will naturally be taking down defenses faster on non-boss (dual defense) enemies than you will health with just weapons fire.

You make the mistake of assuming the enmies have the same amount of health that they do defense layers. They do not.

You'll have to explain what you mean by layers because in my quote I excluded enemies with dual layered defenses.

If you mean to say that the ratio for (example) shields to health is not equal, then read my post directly above your own.

[thisisme8]

TheLostGenius wrote...

Also "consensus"

My mistake.  Will edit.

[Cascadus]

Pinkflamingo22 wrote...

Kasumi and Conrad Verner

You've got to be kidding me. I always bring Verner with me on Horizon, his loyalty ability is god-like on Horizon. Gotta agree with Kasumi, though. Not much ability to take down barriers or armour.

Modifié par Cascadus, 01 mars 2010 - 05:56 .

[Mallissin]

thisisme8 wrote...
After reading Christina's post, several of us set out to test her statement and came to the conclusion that almost all enemies have equal amounts of health and defense.

If you have actual evidence that enemies have 1.5 more defense than health, I would like to see it and I will take back my claim.

Post a link to her statements?

[Lucazius]

For an Insanity run, Jack < Grunt < Jacob < Garrus = Zaeed < Mordin < Miranda.


Jack doesn't help a lot with a shotgun and a bad attitude. However, if you manage to pair her with Mordin, she might be good against those husks once you burn their armor.

Jacob and Grunt both have inferno ammo, which helps.

Garrus and Zaeed are very good if you have a nice sniper rifle with them.

Mordin is awesome if you get Inferno Blast to burn the armor of those annoying Husks, Scions, Preatorians.

And Miranda... well, it's Miranda.

Modifié par Lucazius, 01 mars 2010 - 06:19 .

[Nastrod]

The only deadly spot in there is the last area even on insanity and that is because of the two scions and the Praetorian. So pretty much every sucks compared to Mordin and Miranda for that level IMO. I love having the warp and the incinerate.

Jack-the collectors are not hard so pull is no biggie and she uses a shotgun
Garrus-Concussive Shots do not do much at that point and overload is not needed
Jacob-same as Jack
Grunt- no great powers at this point and uses shotgun

Modifié par Nastrod, 01 mars 2010 - 06:24 .