113 réponses à ce sujet

[ZennExile]

thisisme8 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Making a quick video for the combat basics guide in my sig.  Wanted to know who the general population believes is the worst team possible (regardless of Shepard's class) to bring to Horizon.

"Regardless of Shepard's class" defeats your intentions before you begin.  Each squadmate is not unique.  The entire game is focused around team mechanics or combinations of biotic, tech, soldier skills.  If you ignore shepard's class you ignore the mechanics.

I think you misunderstand.  The Combat Basics guide is about using basic combat strategies like assaulting, defending, flanking, bottlenecks, cover, high ground advantage or disadvantage, etc.  Not about how to win at ______ mission using _______ class and ________ teammates.  I can flank with my Adept in much the same manner that I can with my Soldier.  I can maneuver through positions and apply pressure at key locations with an Engineer in the same manner that I would with a Sentinel or Vanguard.  Ok, I'll take Vanguard back.  But it's a class all on its own.

The guide also puts emphasis on the team as a whole instead of individual member talents.

Edit:  History alone can show how basic strategy can remain constant through an ever-changing world of technology.

I think I was being too subtle... THe point was that you can't establish "the worst" or best without considering the class of Shepard because combining them with Shepard is part of the combat mechanics.  Two Soldiers makes fro a terrible team if Shepard is also a Soldier or an Infiltrator but if Shepard is a Vanguard or an Adept two Soldiers works great.

Does that make more sense?

[aeetos21]

Take Grunt and Miranda:

1. Grunt is useful for whenever you face husks, even if you're on insanity. Also his concussive shot is effective against barriers so that's a twofer really.

2. Miranda, same thing. She has warp which is great for armor and barrier (two things you'll see a lot of on Horizon) and her squad passive buffs help enormously.

Edit: Worst would be jack. Mordin has incinerate which is usful against armor and Garrus carries an AR and a Sniper which are great for many of the fights you'll tun into on horizon. On insanity Jack's capabilities are very limited until you knock out the enemy defenses.

Modifié par aeetos21, 01 mars 2010 - 06:29 .

[thisisme8]

ZennExile wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Making a quick video for the combat basics guide in my sig.  Wanted to know who the general population believes is the worst team possible (regardless of Shepard's class) to bring to Horizon.

"Regardless of Shepard's class" defeats your intentions before you begin.  Each squadmate is not unique.  The entire game is focused around team mechanics or combinations of biotic, tech, soldier skills.  If you ignore shepard's class you ignore the mechanics.

I think you misunderstand.  The Combat Basics guide is about using basic combat strategies like assaulting, defending, flanking, bottlenecks, cover, high ground advantage or disadvantage, etc.  Not about how to win at ______ mission using _______ class and ________ teammates.  I can flank with my Adept in much the same manner that I can with my Soldier.  I can maneuver through positions and apply pressure at key locations with an Engineer in the same manner that I would with a Sentinel or Vanguard.  Ok, I'll take Vanguard back.  But it's a class all on its own.

The guide also puts emphasis on the team as a whole instead of individual member talents.

Edit:  History alone can show how basic strategy can remain constant through an ever-changing world of technology.

I think I was being too subtle... THe point was that you can't establish "the worst" or best without considering the class of Shepard because combining them with Shepard is part of the combat mechanics.  Two Soldiers makes fro a terrible team if Shepard is also a Soldier or an Infiltrator but if Shepard is a Vanguard or an Adept two Soldiers works great.

Does that make more sense?

I see.  Well, I suppose I have to just let it be known that it is a simple guide and not an exact science, so the best I can do for the general consensus of worst is look for the two lowest common denominators.

[Aniki_21]

Jackal904 wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

mjkjets wrote...

Jack and Jacob

Edit- It depends on what difficulty your playing on. My response was for insanity.

It will be on Insanity.  If any of you have seen the other videos, then you know I will be using a Soldier with only the occasional Concussive Shot, no Adrenaline Rush, as it is supposed to be less about individual powers and team members and more about strategy, tactics, and your team as a whole.

Then definitely go with Jack and Jacob. As a soldier it's extremely useful to have two biotics with pull in your squad. And I recommend doing Jack's loyalty mission as soon as possible so that you can get her squad warp ammo so that everyone in your squad will have warp ammo. Or you could get it as a bonus talent.

True. I learned to appreciate Jacob as a squad member a lot more on Insanity simply because of his pull ability.

[thisisme8]

Mallissin wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...
After reading Christina's post, several of us set out to test her statement and came to the conclusion that almost all enemies have equal amounts of health and defense.

If you have actual evidence that enemies have 1.5 more defense than health, I would like to see it and I will take back my claim.

Post a link to her statements?

This was the statement that shook a few of us up, because we also believed that they had defense>health:

Christina Norman wrote...

***** wrote...

Geth
have nearly double, if not triple the amount of protection than they do
actual life, same thing applies to husks.  Can't really say for sure
about humans, vorcha and krogans but heavy mechs have two layers of
protection and seem to only require a few seconds of fire to take down
as opposed to how long it took to strip them.  The generic security
bots also have more protection than life as do any of the Asari
Vanguards and other elite humanoids.  I'll check the collectors in a
minute.

Almost all this information is not correct, where is it coming from?

After reading that, we set out to find the best way to challenge her statement. 

We used melee attacks since they do constant damage, I.E. 125 points of damage to health and all defenses (pre-research and without the +25% melee damage shoulder armor).  By attacking enemies with only melee, we discovered that most enemies require equal amounts of melee attacks to reduce defense and then kill.  An example, Geth Hunters require more attacks, but have the same ratio, 1:1, that Geth Troopers have.  To find that conversation would require me digging through 50+ pages of the Vanguard tips and tricks on Hardcore/Insanity thread.
RamsenC should actually be credited for not only performing the initial tests, but also digging in through some of the, or maybe just the, .ini files and finding some of the damage numbers, although concrete health and defense numbers can't be found.  Still, if melee damage is constant and it takes (example) three hits to remove defense and three hits to deplete health on the same target, then that is equal amounts health/defense (375/375).

[ZennExile]

thisisme8 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Making a quick video for the combat basics guide in my sig.  Wanted to know who the general population believes is the worst team possible (regardless of Shepard's class) to bring to Horizon.

"Regardless of Shepard's class" defeats your intentions before you begin.  Each squadmate is not unique.  The entire game is focused around team mechanics or combinations of biotic, tech, soldier skills.  If you ignore shepard's class you ignore the mechanics.

I think you misunderstand.  The Combat Basics guide is about using basic combat strategies like assaulting, defending, flanking, bottlenecks, cover, high ground advantage or disadvantage, etc.  Not about how to win at ______ mission using _______ class and ________ teammates.  I can flank with my Adept in much the same manner that I can with my Soldier.  I can maneuver through positions and apply pressure at key locations with an Engineer in the same manner that I would with a Sentinel or Vanguard.  Ok, I'll take Vanguard back.  But it's a class all on its own.

The guide also puts emphasis on the team as a whole instead of individual member talents.

Edit:  History alone can show how basic strategy can remain constant through an ever-changing world of technology.

I think I was being too subtle... THe point was that you can't establish "the worst" or best without considering the class of Shepard because combining them with Shepard is part of the combat mechanics.  Two Soldiers makes fro a terrible team if Shepard is also a Soldier or an Infiltrator but if Shepard is a Vanguard or an Adept two Soldiers works great.

Does that make more sense?

I see.  Well, I suppose I have to just let it be known that it is a simple guide and not an exact science, so the best I can do for the general consensus of worst is look for the two lowest common denominators.

or you could include one of the absolute most important aspects of the game in the guide.  Squad building and synergy...

[thisisme8]

ZennExile wrote...
or you could include one of the absolute most important aspects of the game in the guide.  Squad building and synergy...

I will either leave that for another guide, or only include it after the basics portion.  I believe it expands the scope a little too much at this point.

Also, the more I play, the less I depend on the class or make-up of my squad, and more on the overall strategy to each type of encounter.  While I know your team members and synergy can significantly help, I believe that those principles on a foundation of solid strategy and tactics will make you great, as opposed to good.

[Singu]

Average Gatsby wrote...

Jack and Garrus. Especially if you haven't done their loyalty missions yet. Zaeed at least will do more weapon damage than garrus. Jack's pull will not be great if it doesn't have a warp to back you up. Neither of them have strong anti barrier or anti armor abilities.

And the people badmouthing Mordin. I LOL at you and point you to the 4.5 cryo blast cooldown and AOE incinerate. And also that his passive, per level, gives him the second best survivability out of all the starting characters except Grunt.

I agree with Mordin being the most awesome 'caster' in the game. His nukes make him a jack of all trade bar against shielded targets. But I find it really hard to navigate him out of harms way and make him stay there without him poking his antennas out and getting them shot off in a crossfire.

It would be interesting to see if Bioware gave the various squadmates different AI's while being under fire. I know from an interview that Thane is supposed to be the most reserved of all your squaddies, if this is true in combat I don't know...

[Chuvvy]

Jackal904 wrote...

mjkjets wrote...

Jack and Jacob

Edit- It depends on what difficulty your playing on. My response was for insanity.

Are you on crack? Ya two people who can use pull and one has inferno ammo that rips through armor, they're terrible....

Inferno ammo is small time unless your on causual or normal.

[ZennExile]

thisisme8 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...
or you could include one of the absolute most important aspects of the game in the guide.  Squad building and synergy...

I will either leave that for another guide, or only include it after the basics portion.  I believe it expands the scope a little too much at this point.

Also, the more I play, the less I depend on the class or make-up of my squad, and more on the overall strategy to each type of encounter.  While I know your team members and synergy can significantly help, I believe that those principles on a foundation of solid strategy and tactics will make you great, as opposed to good.

It's part of the basic combat mechanics though.  Useing the right tool for the right job...  I don't think it could get more basic than that.

[Mallissin]

thisisme8 wrote...
We used melee attacks since they do constant damage, I.E. 125 points of damage to health and all defenses (pre-research and without the +25% melee damage shoulder armor).  By attacking enemies with only melee, we discovered that most enemies require equal amounts of melee attacks to reduce defense and then kill.  An example, Geth Hunters require more attacks, but have the same ratio, 1:1, that Geth Troopers have.  To find that conversation would require me digging through 50+ pages of the Vanguard tips and tricks on Hardcore/Insanity thread.
RamsenC should actually be credited for not only performing the initial tests, but also digging in through some of the, or maybe just the, .ini files and finding some of the damage numbers, although concrete health and defense numbers can't be found.  Still, if melee damage is constant and it takes (example) three hits to remove defense and three hits to deplete health on the same target, then that is equal amounts health/defense (375/375).

The person must be doing their research on Normal difficulty. Hardcore and Insanity have bonuses applied to barrier/shield/armor before level and difficulty factors are applied.

Hardcore = 75
Insanity = 150

It's in the Coalesced.ini file (lines 4265-4396) . I haven't worked out the exact formula, but I'm guessing it's:

Health = Enemy_base_health x (Level / 10) x Difficulty_factor
Armor/Barrier/Shield = (Enemy_base_health + difficulty_bonus) x (Level / 10) x Difficulty_factor

Hence why NG+ games are so hard. All the enemies start off with three times as much health and defenses, and you have no upgrades.

[thisisme8]

Mallissin wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...
We used melee attacks since they do constant damage, I.E. 125 points of damage to health and all defenses (pre-research and without the +25% melee damage shoulder armor).  By attacking enemies with only melee, we discovered that most enemies require equal amounts of melee attacks to reduce defense and then kill.  An example, Geth Hunters require more attacks, but have the same ratio, 1:1, that Geth Troopers have.  To find that conversation would require me digging through 50+ pages of the Vanguard tips and tricks on Hardcore/Insanity thread.
RamsenC should actually be credited for not only performing the initial tests, but also digging in through some of the, or maybe just the, .ini files and finding some of the damage numbers, although concrete health and defense numbers can't be found.  Still, if melee damage is constant and it takes (example) three hits to remove defense and three hits to deplete health on the same target, then that is equal amounts health/defense (375/375).

The person must be doing their research on Normal difficulty. Hardcore and Insanity have bonuses applied to barrier/shield/armor before level and difficulty factors are applied.

Hardcore = 75
Insanity = 150

It's in the Coalesced.ini file (lines 4265-4396) . I haven't worked out the exact formula, but I'm guessing it's:

Health = Enemy_base_health x (Level / 10) x Difficulty_factor
Armor/Barrier/Shield = (Enemy_base_health + difficulty_bonus) x (Level / 10) x Difficulty_factor

Hence why NG+ games are so hard. All the enemies start off with three times as much health and defenses, and you have no upgrades.

They were done on Insanity.  I can't be exact on actual numbers since none have been provided for us.  Next time you are in game, though, check it out.  Take an SMG or AR versus some Blue Suns, Eclipse, Geth, or Collectors and see what goes down faster: defense or health.  Keep an eye out for whether you're fighting regular or elite enemies (Blue Suns Mercs vs. Blue Suns Legionaire, or Collector Drones vs. Collector Assassin) as their health and defense are much higher.  Krogan and Vorcha are hard to tell since they regen.
Watch some of the videos on my Youtube page and you may notice that for me, removing defense is never an issue.  And I use powers like Pull and Shockwave all the time.  Still, I'm one of the few that believes defense is easier dispensed than health, however, power usage can make health an cakewalk.  It's the brilliance of it.  All of the sudden, every power is available as opposed to the very few that are available if I only focus on spike damage vs. defense (Miranda's powers come to mind).

[NICKjnp]

Jacob is the worst squadmate period. His AI acts like grunt but his stats are like subject zero.

[ZennExile]

NICKjnp wrote...

Jacob is the worst squadmate period. His AI acts like grunt but his stats are like subject zero.

jacob is particularly useless...  Even on his own loyalty mission.  But I guess if I was the token black guy and forced into a racist role I'd have been as useless as possible too just to stick it to the man...

[NICKjnp]

ZennExile wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Jacob is the worst squadmate period. His AI acts like grunt but his stats are like subject zero.

jacob is particularly useless...  Even on his own loyalty mission.  But I guess if I was the token black guy and forced into a racist role I'd have been as useless as possible too just to stick it to the man...

He has a tendency to just run out and stand infront of an enemy and shoot (but not in a good way).  He likes to do this to heavy mechs and praetorians.

[ZennExile]

NICKjnp wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Jacob is the worst squadmate period. His AI acts like grunt but his stats are like subject zero.

jacob is particularly useless...  Even on his own loyalty mission.  But I guess if I was the token black guy and forced into a racist role I'd have been as useless as possible too just to stick it to the man...

He has a tendency to just run out and stand infront of an enemy and shoot (but not in a good way).  He likes to do this to heavy mechs and praetorians.

You noticed that too?  My favorite jacob AI script is the one that makes him get up and run straight at any Krogan he sees no matter how many times I click the damn "stand over here" button.  My second favorite is the one that tells him to run up to enemies with flamethrowers and attempt to melee them...

[SurfaceBeneath]

Jacob the worst squadmate? Not even close.



Jack is BY FAR the worst. At least Squad Incendiary Ammo makes Jacob worth bringing along if you're an Adept/Sentinel/Engineer early game. Jack is terribad.

[ZennExile]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Quack quack.... Jack is terribad argue with me please I need it... quack quack

No

[Mossa_missa]

Zaeed and Jack is probably the worst team-mates to bring. Inferno ammo still makes them dance and eat harbringer armor so Jacob is actuly good to bring. Especialy if your a Adept or Engineer. I personaly tend to bring Miranda/Mordin and Grunt. My Grunt once charged 3 husks and killd all 3 of em, on insane!

Modifié par Mossa_missa, 01 mars 2010 - 09:14 .

[didymos1120]

Mossa_missa wrote...

Zaeed and Jack is probably the worst team-mates to bring.

Really?  Zaeed can knock the crap out of stuff with Concussive Shot, and his Inferno Grenade can mess up armor real nice if you've put some points into it. Both aren't too shabby against barriers either, though obviously not ideal.  Plus, he has a ridiculous damage bonus of +50% if you've evolved him into a Mercenary Warlord.  He pretty much wrecked shop left and right for me on Horizon. 

I agree on Jack, though.  Chick just gets killed way too often on that planet when left to her own devices. She can sit in her hidey-hole. 

I actually took Zaeed and Mordin once.  Not sure why.  Surprisingly though, Mordin evaded death like a freakin' ninja the whole time, and whenever I thought it wise to activate his Incinerate, I found he'd already done it or was in the process.  He more or less single-handedly wiped out one or two of the Husk waves. The rest of his time was spent running around like a madman spraying his machine pistol at anything with a barrier and being a very bad target for Collector drones.  It was pretty awesome, really.

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 mars 2010 - 09:49 .

[Karstedt]

thisisme8 wrote...

So, without going through and doing an actual count, I'm looking at for sure taking Jack with me, plus either Jacob or Garrus. So I guess it's between those two now.

So, it's proven then. Second hand crack smoke is bad for you.

[yummysoap]

I just played through Horizon on Insanity with Mordin and Miranda and ff*ck, it was like running up to Harbinger and getting themselves killed in two seconds brought them so much glee. I dropped my controller in astonishment when I saw stupid f*cking Mordin trying to take on a scion in open space whilst being mauled by four husks behind him.

Modifié par yummysoap, 01 mars 2010 - 11:12 .

[GOINxPOSTAl]

If its not mordin and miranda then your doing it wrong, I got through insanity so easy because of them.

[WillieStyle]

Sigh! Squadmates with Shotguns fight more aggressively than Squadmates with pistols. But enemies will always prioritize Shepard over any squadmate no matter how aggressively they play. So if you:
-Play aggressively by getting to medium/close range
-Attack all enemies to gain their attention/pin them down
-Take out rocket-wielding troops ASAP (they can stunlock squadmates)
-And have high dps (every class should)
then Jacob isn't a problem.
If you hide behind cover and Snipe only when Tactical Cloak is off cooldown, or stick to the Vinidcator at long range, then yes, Jacob will be tough to use.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 01 mars 2010 - 12:36 .

[WillieStyle]

ZennExile wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...
or you could include one of the absolute most important aspects of the game in the guide.  Squad building and synergy...

I will either leave that for another guide, or only include it after the basics portion.  I believe it expands the scope a little too much at this point.

Also, the more I play, the less I depend on the class or make-up of my squad, and more on the overall strategy to each type of encounter.  While I know your team members and synergy can significantly help, I believe that those principles on a foundation of solid strategy and tactics will make you great, as opposed to good.

It's part of the basic combat mechanics though.  Useing the right tool for the right job...  I don't think it could get more basic than that.

I look forward to reading/watching your guid on Squadmate selection and synergies.
Thisisme8's idea seems sound to me.  For a true beginner's guide, discussing Incenerate versus Reave, or when to use Warp to strip defenses as opposed to using it to trigger a Warp explosion would just confuse readers.