50 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

 He's better off if you do, but it's not a very sympathetic thing to say at a time like that, and most of my PCs don't really believe it  anyway.

How'd you folks feel about it?

[Sandtigress]

Heh I do that scene twice now - once without hardening and without saving, because that's what my characters would usually say, and then hardening and saving. I just remind myself its a game mechanism by which to accomplish what they'd be trying to do behind-the-scenes - bolstering his self-esteem and letting him know its okay to want his own happiness sometimes.

[amethyst_rose2009]

It seems harsh at the time, but after having my elf get dumped by unhardened Alistair I have absolutely no problem with it now.  Besides Goldanna really is a money-grubbing witch who only wants "her brother's" money, so just keep thinking about what a witch she would be to Alistair and that will make you feel better about it.

[SirOccam]

I really dislike hardening Alistair or Leliana. I have never hardened Leliana, and I only harden Alistair because it's the only way to get the ending I want (Al + Anora ruling together). It feels like you're killing off any last trace of innocence or optimism or idealism and replacing it with cynicism and bitterness, and there's enough of that to go around already.

[Gilsa]

I wish there was a way for me to search for posts easier, but I do remember seeing a post from the writer that there were originally more lines available to harden Alistair, but through the editing process, it got trimmed down to just that one line (which is why it seem so harsh) which escaped the writer's notice at the time.



So yeah, it seems mean, but you kind of have to overlook that line and focus on what it's intended to do. There are definitely nice ways to tell Leliana that she's meant to be a bard. If there were nicer ways to tell Alistair to stick up for himself some more, would do you it? Therein lies your answer.

[Trefalen]

One way is via Goldanna, but taking a hard line with him aside from the Goldanna arch, can bring him to accept being king etc.. Personally I think he's too whiney if you don't toughen him up.

Modifié par Trefalen, 01 mars 2010 - 12:56 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

SirOccam wrote...

I really dislike hardening Alistair or Leliana. I have never hardened Leliana, and I only harden Alistair because it's the only way to get the ending I want (Al + Anora ruling together). It feels like you're killing off any last trace of innocence or optimism or idealism and replacing it with cynicism and bitterness, and there's enough of that to go around already.

This. Which is why unless I'm going to king him, I generally don't. Mainly because, outside of landsmeet and the whole king process, it doesn't seem to have much effect on him in other areas. it just makes him handle the idea of being king better, even wanting it.

So usually, I don't take that option, unless it's in character for whoever I'm playing.

[SurelyForth]

SirOccam wrote...

I really dislike hardening Alistair or Leliana. I have never hardened Leliana, and I only harden Alistair because it's the only way to get the ending I want (Al + Anora ruling together). It feels like you're killing off any last trace of innocence or optimism or idealism and replacing it with cynicism and bitterness, and there's enough of that to go around already.

The thing is, you're not replacing optimism with bitterness. You're actually making him more optimistic, because he actually believes in himself.

For example, if you make him king alone and he's unhardened, he freaks out. It terrifies him and he immediately resigns himself to a life of misery. There's no optimism there. However, if he's hardened, he is almost childishly excited (nervous, but happy) and looking forward to what good he can do. His personality remains absolutely intact, but he's able to see his own worth and realizes that he can still attend to his own happiness and fulfill his duties. However unpleasant the game mechanism, it's worth it just to know that he knows he's pretty awesome.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 01 mars 2010 - 01:12 .

[errant_knight]

I figure the line is shorthand for something else. If you said what Alistair says you said (urp, awkward sentence), then everyone would always pick that one, and not see the other endings. He says 'I've been thinking about what you said. That I need to look out for myself more.' [...] You were right. If I don't, I'm never going to be happy.'

That says it all for me. I'll never not harden him again. It's not like you're convincing him to be a cynical b*****d, you're telling him not to let people walk all over him.

When he asks you to confirm or deny that's what you meant, you also have the option of saying 'yes, but you don't have to listen to me either.' I always go for that response. I don't want him to let the PC walk all over him either. It's all about making him strong and happy to do he things he's capable of, instead of being held back by all the people who never believed in him, or wanted him safely out of the way.

The way I see it, you have a chance to do something about Alistair's main obstacles to happiness: his habit of letting people make his decisions for him, the lack of self confidence that leads to him doing so, and the self doubt he has about his abilities when he has to put himself forward. That can only be a good thing.

A guy who takes duty as seriously as Alistair wouldn't be happy ignoring his for long, especially when he's ignoring it out of a misplaced fear of failure. The first time Anora made a decision that he disagreed with, it would start to eat at him. My feeling is that in the drunkard ending, it's not just regret for leaving the wardens and betrayal that sends him to the bottom of a bottle.

Modifié par errant_knight, 01 mars 2010 - 01:24 .

[amethyst_rose2009]

SurelyForth wrote...

 However unpleasant the game mechanism, it's worth it just to know that he knows he's pretty awesome.

Well said! 

Modifié par amethyst_rose2009, 01 mars 2010 - 01:18 .

[J-Reyno]

I had no problem hardening Alistair and I was glad to do so, because the hardening choice is actually how I personally feel.  Not that I did it every time.  Some PCs did, some didn't, though I'm pretty sure most did because one goody2shoes that believes in the power of love was really enough for me. LOVE DOES NOT KILL DARKSPAWN.  Take charge, grow some.  I thought it was a great lesson for Alistair to learn, and it makes him sooo much more bearable near the end of the game when discussing the new ruler.

[pudi0072000]

I don't have a problem with it either, because it's the truth. It'd be nice if there was a kinder way to tell him, for some of the less... tactless characters, but I've never been bothered enough to not do it. For RP purposes, I just pretend my PC is pissed at Goldanna and ends up taking it out on Alistair before they have a chance to cool down. He doesn't get upset over it, and it does make him a stronger, happier person in the long run. (Maybe I'm weird, but I actually love that he'll b*tch you out if the Connor thing or Landsmeet turn out badly or if you get him to -100 hate. Backbones are wonderful things to have and Alistair should feel free to use his more often!

[DalishRanger]

SirOccam wrote...

I really dislike hardening Alistair or Leliana. I have never hardened Leliana, and I only harden Alistair because it's the only way to get the ending I want (Al + Anora ruling together). It feels like you're killing off any last trace of innocence or optimism or idealism and replacing it with cynicism and bitterness, and there's enough of that to go around already.

Not true. You can put an unhardened Alistair on the throne with Anora if you have a fairly strong coercion score. In fact, it's my main Warden's canon story, as it's most in-character for him not to harden Alistair, but try to compromise with the throne issue.

However, Alistair takes a less active role in ruling if you don't harden him and lets Anora run most things.

[errant_knight]

DalishRanger wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

I really dislike hardening Alistair or Leliana. I have never hardened Leliana, and I only harden Alistair because it's the only way to get the ending I want (Al + Anora ruling together). It feels like you're killing off any last trace of innocence or optimism or idealism and replacing it with cynicism and bitterness, and there's enough of that to go around already.

Not true. You can put an unhardened Alistair on the throne with Anora if you have a fairly strong coercion score. In fact, it's my main Warden's canon story, as it's most in-character for him not to harden Alistair, but try to compromise with the throne issue.

However, Alistair takes a less active role in ruling if you don't harden him and lets Anora run most things.

And there's an implication that he's miserable.

[DalishRanger]

That too.

[guytza]

On my last playthrough I became buddies with Alistair eventually, but I never got the Goldanna quest so he never got the option of being hardened. Interestingly, it turned out pretty good, if I recall correctly after telling everyone that he had no interest in the throne Anora took it and left him alone, he stuck with the Grey Wardens and the only bad thing on his story is that he left them due to some of there more unscruplous ways, essentially he didnt like the way things were being done, so he cowboyed up and left em all behind to go do his own thing. I was quite surprised that he did so well for himself after my Warden took princess stabbity and the assassin man-candy and went off to have some more adventures. Alistair keeps his idealogy, doesnt get used by Eamon, and isnt responsible for the grade-A morons of Ferelden. I doubt that I'll harden him again, boy seemed pretty happy without the disillusionment.

[errant_knight]

guytza wrote...

On my last playthrough I became buddies with Alistair eventually, but I never got the Goldanna quest so he never got the option of being hardened. Interestingly, it turned out pretty good, if I recall correctly after telling everyone that he had no interest in the throne Anora took it and left him alone, he stuck with the Grey Wardens and the only bad thing on his story is that he left them due to some of there more unscruplous ways, essentially he didnt like the way things were being done, so he cowboyed up and left em all behind to go do his own thing. I was quite surprised that he did so well for himself after my Warden took princess stabbity and the assassin man-candy and went off to have some more adventures. Alistair keeps his idealogy, doesnt get used by Eamon, and isnt responsible for the grade-A morons of Ferelden. I doubt that I'll harden him again, boy seemed pretty happy without the disillusionment.

Really! That's an ending I hadn't heard of! I don't suppose you saved a screenshot of that? And how did you not get the Goldanna quest? I wonder if that's waht your ending hinged on....

[R-F]

I couldn't harden either Alistair or Leliana, it just felt wrong. both characters are optimistic and the world of Dragon age is depressing and cynical enough.

[errant_knight]

R-F wrote...

I couldn't harden either Alistair or Leliana, it just felt wrong. both characters are optimistic and the world of Dragon age is depressing and cynical enough.

As people have noted, hardened Alistair isn't less optomistic, he's more so. He no longer doubts himself except in the occasional line that's reused for all scenarios.

[DalishRanger]

I think more people might harden him if there were a better-worded option than "Everyone's out for themselves." - or at least, a better-worded additional option. I have no problem with hardened Alistair's personality, but that line is far out of character for most of my Wardens, so Ali's stuck being miserable with Anora or on the throne alone - also miserable - in most of my playthroughs.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 01 mars 2010 - 03:49 .

[Nonvita]

DalishRanger wrote...

I think more people might harden him if there were a better-worded option than "Everyone's out for themselves." I have no problem with hardened Alistair's personality, but that line is far out of character for most of my Wardens, so Ali's stuck being miserable with Anora or on the throne alone - also miserable - in most of my playthroughs.

It's not out of character at all for my Wardens, but they're all pretty jaded, angry, and tactless... Half the time I doubt they're even saying it in the nice way. I think it comes as a bit of a surprise when he thanks them at camp afterward!


Yes, I love Alistair, I just show my appreciation in strange ways... At least I'm not killing him off this time!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

guytza wrote...

On my last playthrough I became buddies with Alistair eventually, but I never got the Goldanna quest so he never got the option of being hardened. Interestingly, it turned out pretty good, if I recall correctly after telling everyone that he had no interest in the throne Anora took it and left him alone, he stuck with the Grey Wardens and the only bad thing on his story is that he left them due to some of there more unscruplous ways, essentially he didnt like the way things were being done, so he cowboyed up and left em all behind to go do his own thing. I was quite surprised that he did so well for himself after my Warden took princess stabbity and the assassin man-candy and went off to have some more adventures. Alistair keeps his idealogy, doesnt get used by Eamon, and isnt responsible for the grade-A morons of Ferelden. I doubt that I'll harden him again, boy seemed pretty happy without the disillusionment.

That's pretty awesome. My guess is, is that since you weren't romancing him, and got that end. Though perhaps not meeting Goldanna factors in. But that's actually pretty neat, him deciding he wasn't cool with the "any means necessary" aspect of the Wardens, and taking his own inititive and leaving to go off and live his own way. So perhaps, he ends up with a sort of "self-hardening" eventually, and decides to go do things his own way.

I remember once reading somewhere, I think it was a developer post that suggested that Alistair, had things been different, might have eventually become disillusioned with the Grey wardens on his own, given his personal ethics and views on things. This would certainly explain alot with the ending you got.

[Monica21]

I don't like the line either, but as errant_knight said, I consider it shorthand. Alistair doesn't take it as it's said, so I take creative license with what is said. I didn't harden him my first playthrough (mainly because I didn't know I could and that line seemed so OOC) and now I only harden him if I put him on the throne. There's really not much reason to otherwise.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

That's pretty much how I do it, Monica. I usually don't put him on the throne, and since that's really the only thing that gets affected, I don't see the point in doing so. When i do put him on the throne, he does get hardened, but that's not often.

[DalishRanger]

Since I play my avatar mage the most, even taking that line as shorthand is out of character for him. I'll play to the character and try to avoid metagaming, even if I know I'm making the "wrong" choice.



Which is why Alistair often ends up unhardened and married to Anora and Harrowmont rules the dwarves in my games.