50 réponses à ce sujet

[EccentricSage]

I couldn't do it. I really think the writer should have come up with more than one response to harden him... some of which could have been stern but caring advice. I would have liked to tell him that his sister needs him to become the man he's destined to be. If he wants to help people, he needs to stop doubting himself and become stronger and more practical about things. I don't see how browbeating him for something that wasn't his fault is supposed to lead to that. I think the whole concept of hardening could have been done sooooo much better. Redeming and softening the hardened characters seemed way more natural and psychologically believable than hardening them. (Don't even get me started on what constitutes 'hardening' Leliana. Argh!)

[Monica21]

Gilsa wrote...

I wish there was a way for me to search for posts easier, but I do remember seeing a post from the writer that there were originally more lines available to harden Alistair, but through the editing process, it got trimmed down to just that one line (which is why it seem so harsh) which escaped the writer's notice at the time.

So yeah, it seems mean, but you kind of have to overlook that line and focus on what it's intended to do. There are definitely nice ways to tell Leliana that she's meant to be a bard. If there were nicer ways to tell Alistair to stick up for himself some more, would do you it? Therein lies your answer.

I'm actually pretty surprised that a lot of the dialogue was cut. Alistair's personal quest is among the shortest companion quests, but he's also one of the most important companions.

[guytza]

errant_knight wrote...

guytza wrote...

On my last playthrough I became buddies with Alistair eventually, but I never got the Goldanna quest so he never got the option of being hardened. Interestingly, it turned out pretty good, if I recall correctly after telling everyone that he had no interest in the throne Anora took it and left him alone, he stuck with the Grey Wardens and the only bad thing on his story is that he left them due to some of there more unscruplous ways, essentially he didnt like the way things were being done, so he cowboyed up and left em all behind to go do his own thing. I was quite surprised that he did so well for himself after my Warden took princess stabbity and the assassin man-candy and went off to have some more adventures. Alistair keeps his idealogy, doesnt get used by Eamon, and isnt responsible for the grade-A morons of Ferelden. I doubt that I'll harden him again, boy seemed pretty happy without the disillusionment.

Really! That's an ending I hadn't heard of! I don't suppose you saved a screenshot of that? And how did you not get the Goldanna quest? I wonder if that's waht your ending hinged on....

Just for you, I replayed a few endings and found it under the Ultimate Sacrifice for my character, Guyon.

"Alastair returned to the wardens for a time, insisting that new recruits pay respect to Guyon's sacrifice and campaigning to relax some of the orders more secretive policies. But in time he left the wardens once more, declaring that it simply no longer felt right."

"He traveled to Duncans birthplace and there placed a small monument in the mans memory. Where he went afterwards is unknown."

Seems to handle it pretty well and most definately is making his own choices, so thats good. And for the quest, I was a mean bastard to him at the begining and didnt bother with the gifts so his approval was just shy of asking me about Goldanna. Still considered me enough of a friend to offer to take the final blow in my stead at the Archdemon, which I would not allow. Surprised I remembered it so well.

EDIT: Interestingly, on the Dark Ritual ending there is no mention of Alistair at all, so when I go off to have my own adventures and he stays behind, I think its a safe assumption that he ends up at the same place. right?

Modifié par guytza, 01 mars 2010 - 04:43 .

[guytza]

Interestingly, on the Dark Ritual ending there is no mention of Alistair at all, so when I go off to have my own adventures and he stays behind, I think its a safe assumption that he ends up at the same place. right?

[knittzu]

I hated it. It's just so counter-intuitive and feels wrong for any of my characters, regardless of their personalities or goals. At no other point in the game are you rewarded for being abusive to your party members, and then suddenly it's a positive thing so say something cold to Alistair after the traumatic experience of meeting his sister? The line felt wrong even for my evil character; it's far too blunt to use on a person who reacts poorly to bluntness. It also doesn't seem IC for Alistair to start thinking better of himself after being told that. It made more sense to me that he'd be willing to stand up for himself after hearing that his fellow warden considers him family, that he's not alone, etc.



I get that it's just a game mechanic, but it's so poorly done compared to most of the character interactions we're given and it's especially disappointing considering how important "hardening" Alistair turns out to be.

[knittzu]

Double post.

Modifié par knittzu, 01 mars 2010 - 04:53 .

[errant_knight]

guytza wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

guytza wrote...

On my last playthrough I became buddies with Alistair eventually, but I never got the Goldanna quest so he never got the option of being hardened. Interestingly, it turned out pretty good, if I recall correctly after telling everyone that he had no interest in the throne Anora took it and left him alone, he stuck with the Grey Wardens and the only bad thing on his story is that he left them due to some of there more unscruplous ways, essentially he didnt like the way things were being done, so he cowboyed up and left em all behind to go do his own thing. I was quite surprised that he did so well for himself after my Warden took princess stabbity and the assassin man-candy and went off to have some more adventures. Alistair keeps his idealogy, doesnt get used by Eamon, and isnt responsible for the grade-A morons of Ferelden. I doubt that I'll harden him again, boy seemed pretty happy without the disillusionment.

Really! That's an ending I hadn't heard of! I don't suppose you saved a screenshot of that? And how did you not get the Goldanna quest? I wonder if that's waht your ending hinged on....

Just for you, I replayed a few endings and found it under the Ultimate Sacrifice for my character, Guyon.

"Alastair returned to the wardens for a time, insisting that new recruits pay respect to Guyon's sacrifice and campaigning to relax some of the orders more secretive policies. But in time he left the wardens once more, declaring that it simply no longer felt right."

"He traveled to Duncans birthplace and there placed a small monument in the mans memory. Where he went afterwards is unknown."

Seems to handle it pretty well and most definately is making his own choices, so thats good. And for the quest, I was a mean bastard to him at the begining and didnt bother with the gifts so his approval was just shy of asking me about Goldanna. Still considered me enough of a friend to offer to take the final blow in my stead at the Archdemon, which I would not allow. Surprised I remembered it so well.

EDIT: Interestingly, on the Dark Ritual ending there is no mention of Alistair at all, so when I go off to have my own adventures and he stays behind, I think its a safe assumption that he ends up at the same place. right?

Thanks so much! That's very interesting! I find it a littel sad--not sad like the drunkard ending, or doing the ultimate sacrifice and pretty much being forgotten about while everyone celebrates the PC's awesomeness, but a little sad. There's kind of an implication that he does nothing of note, which tugs at the heartstrings a little knowing what he could have accomplished, and who he could have been.

You're probably right about your dark ritual ending. If you'd been better friends, Alistair would have stuck around to rebuild them with you.

Modifié par errant_knight, 01 mars 2010 - 05:06 .

[Monica21]

guytza wrote...
Just for you, I replayed a few endings and found it under the Ultimate Sacrifice for my character, Guyon.

"Alastair returned to the wardens for a time, insisting that new recruits pay respect to Guyon's sacrifice and campaigning to relax some of the orders more secretive policies. But in time he left the wardens once more, declaring that it simply no longer felt right."

"He traveled to Duncans birthplace and there placed a small monument in the mans memory. Where he went afterwards is unknown."

Seems to handle it pretty well and most definately is making his own choices, so thats good. And for the quest, I was a mean bastard to him at the begining and didnt bother with the gifts so his approval was just shy of asking me about Goldanna. Still considered me enough of a friend to offer to take the final blow in my stead at the Archdemon, which I would not allow. Surprised I remembered it so well.

That's a very interesting ending, and I actually find that it suits him. Unless you make him King or travel with him, I can easily see him becoming disillusioned with the Wardens. They're not the heroic ideal he thinks they are, and without a guiding influence I can see that getting at him to the point where he no longer wants to be part of it.

Thanks for posting.

[AlanC9]

Gilsa wrote...

I wish there was a way for me to search for posts easier, but I do remember seeing a post from the writer that there were originally more lines available to harden Alistair, but through the editing process, it got trimmed down to just that one line (which is why it seem so harsh) which escaped the writer's notice at the time.

So yeah, it seems mean, but you kind of have to overlook that line and focus on what it's intended to do. There are definitely nice ways to tell Leliana that she's meant to be a bard. If there were nicer ways to tell Alistair to stick up for himself some more, would do you it? Therein lies your answer.

Having read that, I think I'm going to just edit the damn line to something more reasonable. Good thing I play on PC.

[Xetirox]

Had no problems hardening him. Being as both my character and I are rather cynical individuals, telling Alistair what we both felt was a basic and hard truth about the world that he hadn't quite come to grasp was only natural. Hardened him without even knowing the option even existed.

Being sympathetic and a friend is not just about offering someone a shoulder to cry on, and "crying" is practically all Al has done throughout his life. He whines that he has no control, nobody except Duncan ever cared about him and allowed him to do what he wanted (which everyone worth their salt should know is complete bull-****), all that jazz. But in truth, he largely lets things he doesn't like happen to him, he plays nice, keeps his head down, and hopes everyone can be happy that way. If Alistair wants to do good in Thedas, wants to stick to his principles, and wants to achieve some modicum of happiness, he needs to STOP doing that, man up, and stand up for himself and his beliefs. What people need doesn't necessarily equal what they want. Sometimes to be kind, you have to be cruel. And if you act like a doormat, everyone WILL walk all over you.

Modifié par Xetirox, 01 mars 2010 - 07:13 .

[ckriley]

Since I despise Alistair, no, I have absolutely no problems in telling him to stop being a child about life and to grow up.

[errant_knight]

ckriley wrote...

Since I despise Alistair, no, I have absolutely no problems in telling him to stop being a child about life and to grow up.

Right. And you found that constructive to add because...why?

[Cuddlezarro]

I have no problems hardening alistair...yes the line is absolutly god awful and I just like to pretend it says something else



really WTF where they thinking when that line and that line alone would make Alistair progress as a character? you should have been able to help him gain confidence slowly over the game as it progresses but nope only happens if you pick one line over a side quest that involves his cow of a sister

[draxynnus]

errant_knight wrote...

A guy who takes duty as seriously as Alistair wouldn't be happy ignoring his for long, especially when he's ignoring it out of a misplaced fear of failure. The first time Anora made a decision that he disagreed with, it would start to eat at him. My feeling is that in the drunkard ending, it's not just regret for leaving the wardens and betrayal that sends him to the bottom of a bottle.

Good point. Especially if Anora is ruling alone and the Alienage massacre happens...

It's actually something that means I'm planning to have my HNM be the one who duels Loghain. I just don't feel that he deserves to end up as a drunkard, and, well, setting it up that way means plausible deniability.

(Of course, it helps that my HNM thinks Loghain deserves it for backing Howe as well...)

On topic, I generally tend to imagine it's a different line... possibly along the lines of "Some people are only looking out for themselves, and sometimes you have to look out for yourself because you're the only person whom you can be sure of to put your interests first." 

[asaiasai]

Allister before his personality is hardened is a happy go lucky sort and i need everybody ready to do what needs to be done with out question or fail. As it happens i also like to harden his personality because it is necessary for the ending i preffer. I have excercised other options, allowing Allister to take the final blow, taking it myself, i preffer to marry him off to Anora and take on the acrhdemon with Loghain letting Loghain take the final blow. I have 2 real heros in the game who i try and satisfy, Flemeth and Eamon and both get what they want, to my detriment or anyone elses. The nice thing about the game is that Bioware forces you to choose from several options, this is why i play Bioware games, and the tougher the decision, the more brutal the outcome, the closer to real life those decisions cut the better i like them.



Asai

[Fishy]

For some reason i always choose
-Other cherist you !

Modifié par Suprez30, 01 mars 2010 - 09:48 .

[errant_knight]

draxynnus wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

A guy who takes duty as seriously as Alistair wouldn't be happy ignoring his for long, especially when he's ignoring it out of a misplaced fear of failure. The first time Anora made a decision that he disagreed with, it would start to eat at him. My feeling is that in the drunkard ending, it's not just regret for leaving the wardens and betrayal that sends him to the bottom of a bottle.

Good point. Especially if Anora is ruling alone and the Alienage massacre happens...

It's actually something that means I'm planning to have my HNM be the one who duels Loghain. I just don't feel that he deserves to end up as a drunkard, and, well, setting it up that way means plausible deniability.

(Of course, it helps that my HNM thinks Loghain deserves it for backing Howe as well...)

On topic, I generally tend to imagine it's a different line... possibly along the lines of "Some people are only looking out for themselves, and sometimes you have to look out for yourself because you're the only person whom you can be sure of to put your interests first." 

Heh, I always let Alistair do it. He'd just enjoy it so very, very much. But yeah, that's one of the many reasons I make him king, and king alone. I see the character arc with Alistair as making him aware and accepting of his potential, instead of trying to run from it and doubting his ability to live up to his own standards.

[Sabriana]

I agree on the 'hardening' lines. It is also my preferred ending to have Alistair & Anora ruling, and Loghain taking the killing blow. It's meta-gaming, I know, but I can't bring myself to just let him dangle between a hated task (ruling) and becoming a drunk. He deserves more.

Sure, he gets plenty mad at my PC, but the way I see it, he starts coming around. He's still plenty sarcastic, but I feel he already regrets abandoning the fight. Besides, I'm totally in love with this line of his: "If Anora thinks she can rule by herself, she has a surprise coming."

Bravo, Alistair. Got get 'em.

In my first game, my mage didn't harden him. I didn't know it was even possible, and that line sounds just cruel until it becomes clear that it is for his benefit. When he dumped her, she was heart-broken, but in the end he showed that he still cared. He wouldn't let her dish out the killing blow, but kissed her and just took over. That was quite a shocker, and I hated that ending. No, I didn't know that you could even leave him at the gate.

[Xandurpein]

I wonder about one thing that is never spelled out in the Game. If Alistair marries Anora we never actually see any final decision on who is King or queen and who is consort. I was sort of half assuming that Anora was consort, but why does Anora go for it without any protests. Or is Alistair consort? Just curious why the question never arises.

[macgirlffx]

This was a big dilemma for me. Mainly because that one line to harden him was one of the responses I would've never thought of picking to do it. My female characters are usually in a relationship with him and that line is too harsh and just blurted out to fit into the story. But... like most others, I choose it now for the end result. I didn't harden him the first time just because I had no clue that THAT was the line to pick. He was so weenie whiny throughout the entire Landsmeet process I was ready to kill him myself (well, my character) right there in front of everyone. Dang man, stop whining like a baby! Grow a set and act your age. I actually had to pick who would be on the throne and I picked him and said I'd rule by his side. Lord knows he'd never do it by himself. Heaven help us. It would kind of be like this, "Come over here honey and sit down. I have a warm blankie and cookies for you. Relax while I decide to execute some misdoers in court. See you later."



I harden him now and just pretend I said something more eloquent. A lot of the dialogue choices don't match up with what my character would really say but I choose something close. Hey, I didn't write it so I can't expect BioWare to get it all right. I never finished the game with him unhardened. His whining and then badgering about making babies after the Landsmeet just turned me off to finishing it. I had to vomit for awhile to clean that out of my system. Gads Al. I've done the Morrigan ending with a male character and a female mage ending with him hardened. The dumping part made me quit playing for 2 weeks. That was tasteless and a little harsh for Alistair's character. It was unnecessary too since who knew who was going to live or not. Cripes. It could've waited. Idiot. But I did finish it and then he got all sappy at the end and jumped on the archdemon for me because he cared. Aw. It was noble, but not enough to totally erase my distaste for the dumping tactic. It was a elf mage so maybe he says something different to a human, but it was harsh and unacceptable for him.



Also, I've yet to finish the game on the PC version. I started with the PS3 version and loved it so much that when I got my new gaming laptop I got the PC version even though I played the heck out of it on PS3, as well as Awakening. What I've noticed next to awesome graphics, compared to the PS3 blurry crapfest, is the dialogue, conversations, and even some personality intricacies are quite different between the two platforms. It's like a whole new game to me so I'm running through it in every shape and form and plan to try for other possibilities.



My human noble warrior ending included the Morrigan thing. Good God, trying to talk Alistair into doing it if he's unhardened and in a relationship with you is... well, I just want to slap him more for even more whining. I know she's icky and creepy and mean and scary, but Al, sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. It would save your chick. Whine, whine, whine. I don't wanna! Anyone got some clean pampers? Prince boy needs a change. So I only do the Morrigan thing if I'm playing a male character, which I actually like better because I don't have to deal with Alistair in romance. I don't swing that way anyway, or force others to. LOL My mage didn't talk him into doing it either and he was hardened. I don't even consider that part any more. Although I had totally planned to sacrifice myself at the end but to my dismay Alistair did it and I couldn't stop him. I was so upset. LOL 61 hours and planning to do it the whole time and wham, he becomes a man. Guess chivalry isn't dead.



Sorry for the novel. I don't come on much.

[Sarah1281]

All of my PCs have a reason to believe that everyone is out for themselves. 'Everyone' of course, is a gneralization but people do use generalizations when speaking. My DC lived that with the carta, my DN lived that with her family and fellow nobles, my HN is reeling from Howe's actions, my DE blames Duncan's need for recruits on her even being here in the first place, my CE thinks humans are out for themselves anyway, and my mages dealt with Jowan and Irving.



I've honestly never had a problem using that line and when I hear people saying that you make him all cynical and lose all his innocence I have to wonder if they've actually hardened him because that isn't at all what happens. He takes what you say and gets 'I should stand up for myself' out of it. How is him deciding to stand up for himself a bad thing? I always make him King but if I didn't I'd still harden him as him having more confidence and self-esteem isn't only something that's a good idea for being a King but that you should help everyone you care about achieve.

At no other point in the game are you rewarded for being abusive to your party members, and then suddenly it's a positive thing so say something cold to Alistair after the traumatic experience of meeting his sister?

Okay, it wasn't a pleasant experience, certainly, but how 'traumatic' is her saying that she doesn't want him there if he's not going to benefit her? He just met the woman. And telling Alistair that people are out for themselves is hardly 'abusive.'

[Zjarcal]

Sarah1281 wrote... 
...I always make him King...

For some reason I had always thought you were more of an Anora person. Or perhaps you make him king by marrying him to Anora?

In my latest playthrough I haven't had to deal with Alistair's hardening issue because my PC hates him so his approval never got high enough to get his personal quest. But I admit that I never liked the hardening line. It sure has some truth behind it (actually, a lot) but it still feels very OOC for any of my PCs.

[Sarah1281]

Zjarcal wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote... 
...I always make him King...

For some reason I had always thought you were more of an Anora person. Or perhaps you make him king by marrying him to Anora?

In my latest playthrough I haven't had to deal with Alistair's hardening issue because my PC hates him so his approval never got high enough to get his personal quest. But I admit that I never liked the hardening line. It sure has some truth behind it (actually, a lot) but it still feels very OOC for any of my PCs.

All of my non-HN games (where I take the throne with Anora or Alistair) have a default Alistair/Anora + Loghain DR ending. Since all of my characters do, to some extent, believe the 'everyone's out for themselves' hardening line, I suppose it's not surprising. (And yes, I do  Anora)

[Patriciachr34]

I've hardened Alistair only once and will never do it again. Although hardening makes Alistair more accepting of the crown, it also destroys a lot of Alistair's innocence. It's exactly this innocence that makes him so attractive, at least to me. It seems to me that if you give Alistair the opportunity to make choices for himself, ultimately he will become more self confident in a less destructive way.

[CalJones]

It would feel more natural to say something comforting or commiserating, I'll agree. But like Sarah, most of my games end up with an Anora/Alistair pairing and Loghain recruited, so I have no choice but to harden him.