537 réponses à ce sujet

[Jebel Krong]

you can make all the polls in the world - unless they cover the casual (i.e. non-hardcore, non-forum) market set, then they are invariably biased.

[Whereto]

Jebel Krong wrote...



you can make all the polls in the world - unless they cover the casual (i.e. non-hardcore, non-forum) market set, then they are invariably biased.

thank you

[AngryFrozenWater]

About the bias. I should point out that the thread which motivated me to start this poll soon died. I think sig pics appeared after more than half the votes were collected. They were posted in a FemShep group that was nearly dead. So, to I posted them in this thread as well. I also posted them in the new FemShep group. I don't believe that this has caused as much bias as you think, because the trend in this poll was always the same. Even in the time the old thread was dead and before the new group. However, I am aware that a poll like this does not reach the average gamer. I have said this over and over again. On the other hand brocodaily's poll is probably less biased and points in a similar direction when looking at the gender of Mass Effect players: 1 out of 3 is female. So, I think my poll may be off, but not that far off.

[Wolf Warden]

These results are based off of the game sending back data, not a BSN poll, if I understand the source correctly. I doubt they would use a BSN poll for this magnitude of a survey anyway - too much risk of data skewing like you said above.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Whereto wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...



you can make all the polls in the world - unless they cover the casual (i.e. non-hardcore, non-forum) market set, then they are invariably biased.

thank you

We still don't know if those 80% ever finished the game.

Thank you.

[Whereto]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Whereto wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...



you can make all the polls in the world - unless they cover the casual (i.e. non-hardcore, non-forum) market set, then they are invariably biased.

thank you

We still don't know if those 80% ever finished the game.

Thank you.

we still dont know if those 20% femsheps completed it either

[AngryFrozenWater]

Wolf Warden wrote...

These results are based off of the game sending back data, not a BSN poll, if I understand the source correctly. I doubt they would use a BSN poll for this magnitude of a survey anyway - too much risk of data skewing like you said above.

Yup. That's true. But if one suspects that FemShep might be more popular than BW initially thought then one has got to do something about that to improve the quality of that character. A thread like this, a poll and groups are the things one can do on this forum to reach that goal. So, whether people like it or not, the people involved will be doing these things. There is also a counter movement who started their own thread. That's OK. That's how things go on this forum. That will shift the bias too.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 septembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[Jebel Krong]

i'm not saying femshep isn't popular - you only have to look somewhere like deviantart to know that, but in terms of overall audience popularity 20% is both believable (given traditional audience demographics for gaming) and likely. whether that means BW will focus on other areas with a bigger pay-off in the future or not, is up to them but asking for custom animations etc etc. that only <1/5 of the audience are ever likely to see may be asking a lot. they are already doing a lot of extra work for all the custom choices that a lot of people won't see, either, so who knows?



the stat for completion is irrelevant - 50% is high for most games, let alone action ones (i believe the Gears figure was closer to 30%) - lots of people buy, most don't play more than a few hours - the casual market is by far the biggest and therefore most important, dollar-wise, sadly.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Jebel Krong wrote...

i'm not saying femshep isn't popular - you only have to look somewhere like deviantart to know that, but in terms of overall audience popularity 20% is both believable (given traditional audience demographics for gaming) and likely. whether that means BW will focus on other areas with a bigger pay-off in the future or not, is up to them but asking for custom animations etc etc. that only

the stat for completion is irrelevant - 50% is high for most games, let alone action ones (i believe the Gears figure was closer to 30%) - lots of people buy, most don't play more than a few hours - the casual market is by far the biggest and therefore most important, dollar-wise, sadly.

The completition figure of 50% is unrelated to the number of players who played as a male character. We even don't know how many of the 80% who played as a male finished the game. I suspect that BioWare counts the number of male characters created as the number of male characters played. That's the real issue here. If so it does not tell us that 20% of the players created a female character, because the 80% number is not exclsuive. How difficult is that to understand?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 septembre 2010 - 11:15 .

[Whereto]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i'm not saying femshep isn't popular - you only have to look somewhere like deviantart to know that, but in terms of overall audience popularity 20% is both believable (given traditional audience demographics for gaming) and likely. whether that means BW will focus on other areas with a bigger pay-off in the future or not, is up to them but asking for custom animations etc etc. that only

the stat for completion is irrelevant - 50% is high for most games, let alone action ones (i believe the Gears figure was closer to 30%) - lots of people buy, most don't play more than a few hours - the casual market is by far the biggest and therefore most important, dollar-wise, sadly.

The completition figure of 50% is unrelated to the number of players played as a male character. We even don't know how many of the 80% who played as a male finished the game. I suspect that BioWare counts the number of male characters created as the number of male characters played. That's the real issue here. If so it does not tell us that 20% of the players created a female character, because the 80% number is not exclsuive. How difficult is that to understand?

I know how to solve this. Start a petition for  bioware to release the amount of female and male shepards that complete the game. Dont know if they can but worth a try

[Gibb_Garrus]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i'm not saying femshep isn't popular - you only have to look somewhere like deviantart to know that, but in terms of overall audience popularity 20% is both believable (given traditional audience demographics for gaming) and likely. whether that means BW will focus on other areas with a bigger pay-off in the future or not, is up to them but asking for custom animations etc etc. that only

the stat for completion is irrelevant - 50% is high for most games, let alone action ones (i believe the Gears figure was closer to 30%) - lots of people buy, most don't play more than a few hours - the casual market is by far the biggest and therefore most important, dollar-wise, sadly.

The completition figure of 50% is unrelated to the number of players who played as a male character. We even don't know how many of the 80% who played as a male finished the game. I suspect that BioWare counts the number of male characters created as the number of male characters played. That's the real issue here. If so it does not tell us that 20% of the players created a female character, because the 80% number is not exclsuive. How difficult is that to understand?

how difficult is it to understand that these forums are a MINORITY. The hardcore femshep fanboys only exist on these forums, that figure of 80% play as male is more than likely. You can spin the data anyway you want to to make femshep seem more popular, but in the end the reality is that maleshep is used far more throughout the whole of the ME fanbase.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Whereto wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i'm not saying femshep isn't popular - you only have to look somewhere like deviantart to know that, but in terms of overall audience popularity 20% is both believable (given traditional audience demographics for gaming) and likely. whether that means BW will focus on other areas with a bigger pay-off in the future or not, is up to them but asking for custom animations etc etc. that only

the stat for completion is irrelevant - 50% is high for most games, let alone action ones (i believe the Gears figure was closer to 30%) - lots of people buy, most don't play more than a few hours - the casual market is by far the biggest and therefore most important, dollar-wise, sadly.

The completition figure of 50% is unrelated to the number of players played as a male character. We even don't know how many of the 80% who played as a male finished the game. I suspect that BioWare counts the number of male characters created as the number of male characters played. That's the real issue here. If so it does not tell us that 20% of the players created a female character, because the 80% number is not exclsuive. How difficult is that to understand?

I know how to solve this. Start a petition for  bioware to release the amount of female and male shepards that complete the game. Dont know if they can but worth a try

You won't be surprised if I tell you that some of us are already trying to convince BioWare to do that. And I don't want to pressure this, because I feel it is in their best interest to investigate this. So we are trying to do that by lobbying. It is a win/win situtation if it turns out that FemShep is indeed more popular than BW initially thought. It would be viable for them to spend money on it so we get a better FemShep and it would be interesting for them to market that.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 septembre 2010 - 11:27 .

[Jebel Krong]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The completition figure of 50% is unrelated to the number of players who played as a male character. We even don't know how many of the 80% who played as a male finished the game. I suspect that BioWare counts the number of male characters created as the number of male characters played. That's the real issue here. If so it does not tell us that 20% of the players created a female character, because the 80% number is not exclsuive. How difficult is that to understand?

unlikely for 2 reasons:

1. if 50% completion didn't account for every shepard who started the game (i.e. at least got to a playable section or, more likely, finished more than one level) it would be meaningless because you'd just be counting people who played and then didn't like their face and started over/whatever - biasing the metrics completely. consider the game is aggregating data as long as you are connected to the cerberus network (or as soon as you reconnect), obtaining relevant data is extremely easy.

2. You are assuming that the data for females wouldn't be skewed the same way if they weren't being careful about what data is being collected: total femsheps created =/= total finished, either.

you can't assume facts that fit your arguments, but you can interpret likely metrics that could easily be obtained by BW that would provide relevant conclusions.

[Whereto]

i cant ever see femshep being apart of the major marketing as it would alienate the fan base to a small degree. But i would like to see femshep get a upgrade and not be so blokeish (not headbutt a krogan, walk like a woman etc)

[robtheguru]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Whereto wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i'm not saying femshep isn't popular - you only have to look somewhere like deviantart to know that, but in terms of overall audience popularity 20% is both believable (given traditional audience demographics for gaming) and likely. whether that means BW will focus on other areas with a bigger pay-off in the future or not, is up to them but asking for custom animations etc etc. that only

the stat for completion is irrelevant - 50% is high for most games, let alone action ones (i believe the Gears figure was closer to 30%) - lots of people buy, most don't play more than a few hours - the casual market is by far the biggest and therefore most important, dollar-wise, sadly.

The completition figure of 50% is unrelated to the number of players played as a male character. We even don't know how many of the 80% who played as a male finished the game. I suspect that BioWare counts the number of male characters created as the number of male characters played. That's the real issue here. If so it does not tell us that 20% of the players created a female character, because the 80% number is not exclsuive. How difficult is that to understand?

I know how to solve this. Start a petition for  bioware to release the amount of female and male shepards that complete the game. Dont know if they can but worth a try

You won't be surprised if I tell you that some of us are already trying to convince BioWare to do that. And I don't want to pressure this, because I feel it is in their best interest to investigate this. So we are trying to do that by lobbying. It is a win/win situtation if it turns out that FemShep is indeed more popular than BW initially thought. It would be viable for them to spend money on it so we get a better FemShep and it would be interesting for them to market that.

Some people are taking the Femshep thing way too seriously. I mean look at the figures and it is 80% to 20%. The arguement of who makes up whatever portion of 50% completion is irrelevant because at the end of the day, the 80% of maleshep bought the game. The chances are a vast majority of the 50% incomplete games are the second, third, fourth playthroughs from alot of people. So really, there is not going to be that much in it. Besides, so what if the Femsheps make up 50% of the completed playthroughs? It makes no business sense advertising Femshep when she hasn't had a single bit of video time in the ME adverts. Stick to what the public know and your onto a winner.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Jebel Krong wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The completition figure of 50% is unrelated to the number of players who played as a male character. We even don't know how many of the 80% who played as a male finished the game. I suspect that BioWare counts the number of male characters created as the number of male characters played. That's the real issue here. If so it does not tell us that 20% of the players created a female character, because the 80% number is not exclsuive. How difficult is that to understand?

unlikely for 2 reasons:

1. if 50% completion didn't account for every shepard who started the game (i.e. at least got to a playable section or, more likely, finished more than one level) it would be meaningless because you'd just be counting people who played and then didn't like their face and started over/whatever - biasing the metrics completely. consider the game is aggregating data as long as you are connected to the cerberus network (or as soon as you reconnect), obtaining relevant data is extremely easy.

2. You are assuming that the data for females wouldn't be skewed the same way if they weren't being careful about what data is being collected: total femsheps created =/= total finished, either.

you can't assume facts that fit your arguments, but you can interpret likely metrics that could easily be obtained by BW that would provide relevant conclusions.

Unlikely does not mean not true. I am trying to fit the numbers into something that I can understand.

Let's do some simple logic here: 80% of the players played as a male Shepard. That does not mean that 100-80% played as a female character. The exact number is not supplied. It is not exclusive. You can play the game more than once. You can play the game as a male and never finish it and move on to another game. You can create a male character and a female character. You can finish either one more than once. And so on. The number supplied does not tell us those things.

The only thing we have is this poll. And that poll reveals more detail. I'll bet it is biased. But it shows a trend that might peek BioWare's interest. That would be a smart thing to investigate if their goal is to reach 10 million copies.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 septembre 2010 - 11:53 .

[Jebel Krong]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Unlikely does not mean not true. I am trying to fit the numbers into something that I can understand.

Let's do some simple logic here: 80% of the players played as a male Shepard. That does not mean that 100-80% played as a female character. The exact number is not supplied. It is not exclusive. You can play the game more than once. You can play the game as a male and never finish it and move on to another game. You can create a male character and a female character. You can finish either one more than once. The number supplied does not tell us that.

The only thing we have is this poll. And that poll reveals more detail. I'll bet it is biased. But it shows a trend that might peek BioWare's interest. That would be a smart thing to investigate if their goal is to reach 10 million copies.

then you don't understand, certainly statistics. they don't present a total number like that and then caveat "oh this 80% doesn't take into account multiples" etc. the 80% is the total number of shepards, including all the other data, or the figure is meaningless. it's a hard number - don't you think they would account for all the variables before presenting the percentages? and that goes for all the completion data, conversations etc. the conversation data alone should give you an idea of the detail of data being sent back, as that must incorporate re-runs, first time playthroughs, incomplete playthroughs etc, so such a low figure is actually amazingly low when you consider it.

i am sorry it doesn't fit your agenda/worldview but 20% femsheps is a small minority and suggests strongly that BW should put all their efforts into one hero of either sex (& for that matter class) in the future, or have a lot of work wasted.

[AngryFrozenWater]

robtheguru wrote...

Some people are taking the Femshep thing way too seriously. I mean look at the figures and it is 80% to 20%.

No. These numbers are not exclusive. If 80% of the players played as a male Shepard than it follows that 20% or more played as a female Shepard, because you can play the game more than once. It's not that hard to follow.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 septembre 2010 - 12:03 .

[Raanz]

I'm going to have to agree with Krong here. The numbers that BW presented must represent the data collected, including replays.

You have to remember that these forums probably don't even reflect 1% of the total customer base for the ME franchise. Most people (over two million) bought the game, played it, then moved on their merry way. The thousand folks represented in your poll barely represents a very small part of the total customer base.

[brfritos]

Jebel Krong wrote...

i am sorry it doesn't fit your agenda/worldview but 20% femsheps is a small minority and suggests strongly that BW should put all their efforts into one hero of either sex (& for that matter class) in the future, or have a lot of work wasted.

Hummm...

I have 23 playthroughs of ME2, 7 of them as a male and the rest female. Soldier is the least class I use.

So are you saying that ME3 should focus only in maleShep and in the Soldier class?

Well, let's do the math:

2 million copys * $26.98 (Amazon price of today) = US$ 53.960.000
- 20% = US$ 10.792.000

That's a lot of money Bioware will loose, because if Soldier is the only class available I will not buy ME3.
And I'm sure I will not be alone, since a lot of the Vanguards, Engineers, Sentinels, Adepts and Infiltrators will do the same.

The point is not Male x Female Shepard, this statistics means jack****, since Bioware don't give any clarification on them.
Like I said, Soldier is the last class I use, but I use the save editor a lot (I'm on a PC) and in one game I changed my class 6 times in the save (I was testing armor mods and tweaking weapons).

So if Bioware gather my data when I was playing as Soldier - but later change it - this data was interpreted as if I started a game as a soldier, don't completed and skipped 15% of the conversation, since after all this time I know them all.

It make no sense this numbers, 80% of soldiers?
Look the Vanguard discution in the forums, it's a highly popular class.

Modifié par brfritos, 20 septembre 2010 - 02:25 .

[Jebel Krong]

brfritos, no i am not saying that (i prefer infiltrator class myself), but let's say Bioware design a new trilogy, from scratch, they might decide to make a cool heroine with various skills befitting a quasi rpg design (ME2/DA2 type) and one backstory. not only does this have the advantage of all content being played by all players, but you can have far stronger writing because you don't have to worry about ambiguity and people can roleplay a lot more deeply as a result. is that not the best of all worlds? people complain because often shepard is a bit of a blank slate, but he has to be otherwise the workload for any content goes up 100% and they'd never get anything made... also you assume the 20% wouldn't buy the game anyway - Bioware games are generally AAA for a variety of reasons.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 20 septembre 2010 - 02:43 .

[Jebel Krong]

brfritos wrote...

Like I said, Soldier is the last class I use, but I use the save editor a lot (I'm on a PC) and in one game I changed my class 6 times in the save (I was testing armor mods and tweaking weapons).

So if Bioware gather my data when I was playing as Soldier - but later change it - this data was interpreted as if I started a game as a soldier, don't completed and skipped 15% of the conversation, since after all this time I know them all.

It make no sense this numbers, 80% of soldiers?
Look the Vanguard discution in the forums, it's a highly popular class.

again - if they can tell how many conversations people are skipping, then i'm sure they can see modded stats in the data - whether those are then discarded (likely) or counted is obviously unknown, but mods would bias the proper data set.

[Fl1pmode]

Femshep playthroughs were a lot more enjoyable than my lone male one.

[kalle90]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

robtheguru wrote...

Some people are taking the Femshep thing way too seriously. I mean look at the figures and it is 80% to 20%.

No. These numbers are not exclusive. If 80% of the players played as a male Shepard than it follows that 20% or more played as a female Shepard, because you can play the game more than once. It's not that hard to follow.

If the logic worked like that I'd assume they'd have also listed how many people have ever used femShep. I'm convinced that out of the around 2 million players (over 2 million Shepards), not more than 400 000 are femShep. That's still a huge amount of girlgamers and the occassional dude roleplaying. I easily imagine atleast 1 million guys played/tried this game once (as a male soldier) and then moved onto the next game

More importantly: How exactly should Bioware promote femShep? I agree they should fix the stuff like walking animations, but putting more focus on her marketing/storywise is just bad. Mainly as maleShep I hate the default Shepard and bringing in other ones would just make things worse. Plus making the femShep more femine and maleShep more masculine would just lead into "weak, shallow women" and "aggressive, simple men". I don't think people are that unhappy with the voice actors either. 

Like said in other thread: The 2 Sheps are the same and I like it like that (Sure a woman should walk differently than a man but that's small stuff). I doubt a man could hurt a Krogan with a headbutt but if he does it then I'd say a female can too. Only your choices should affect how the story works.
 

[Quething]

kalle90 wrote...

If the logic worked like that I'd assume they'd have also listed how many people have ever used femShep.
 

Why?

No, seriously. Everyone keeps saying this. Why?

Even if it weren't in BioWare's best interest to release misleading statistics that support their current marketing strategy (it definitely is), what possible reason can anyone have to think that BioWare was like "hey we want to give the fanbase useful statistical data from which they can divine the behavioral patterns of their peers"?

They put up some numbers that they thought were interesting and which suited the message they wanted to send about the game. That's it. Full stop. There's nothing remotely comprehensive about that data. It's round bloody numbers! With no context, no specficity, no explanation of the data or the process by which it was gathered, no corresponding statistics, no deviations listed; that data is to actual polling as Wii Fit is to hardcore gaming (ie, the purpose and audience is different, how you're supposed to interact with it is different, and it's not even pretending otherwise). They were not giving a dissertation on the gaming habits of Mass Effect players, they were tossing out some random fluff. Please, please, do some research on "context" and the very nature of statistics before you go treating an incomplete single paragraph of PR like some kind of holy gospel.

Honest to God. Did people watch the adept demo and go "ZOMG, this game DOES NOT HAVE SOLDIERS, they would totally have SHOWN IT IF THEY DID, where's the logic in demoing only the one specific thing they happen to want to demo at the moment and not giving us a point-by-point walkthru of everything in the game!!!"?

Modifié par Quething, 20 septembre 2010 - 04:22 .