133 réponses à ce sujet

[Reiella]

OptimusAlex wrote...

i always thought of ME2's plot as being a "getting all your sh!t ready for the big epic conclusion in ME3


oh and by the way, if you don't like the plot of the game, quit whining about it and dont play it anymore, simple as that

Hmm, strange, I see ME2 as a giant reset button on the trilogy plot.  An interim story to facilitate the great big old reset button.

[Nozybidaj]

Reiella wrote...

OptimusAlex wrote...

i always thought of ME2's plot as being a "getting all your sh!t ready for the big epic conclusion in ME3


oh and by the way, if you don't like the plot of the game, quit whining about it and dont play it anymore, simple as that

Hmm, strange, I see ME2 as a giant reset button on the trilogy plot.  An interim story to facilitate the great big old reset button.

That was my impression as well. 

[MPSai]

Well consider for most of the game you had no clue how to get through the Omega 4 Relay and were looking for anything that would help your squad in the final battle.



Also because then we wouldn't have a game.



That I can overlook. The one plot contrivance I COULDN'T overlook was Shepard inexplicably taking every competent person off the ship in the shuttle right before it was attacked by Collectors. I mean really? Where were they even all GOING?

[Canez fan 1988]

MPSai wrote...

Well consider for most of the game you had no clue how to get through the Omega 4 Relay and were looking for anything that would help your squad in the final battle.

Also because then we wouldn't have a game.

That I can overlook. The one plot contrivance I COULDN'T overlook was Shepard inexplicably taking every competent person off the ship in the shuttle right before it was attacked by Collectors. I mean really? Where were they even all GOING?

That was probably the only issue I had with the story as well. It should have been better explained and better incorporated into the game because in it's present state it feels rushed. With that being said, I didn't expect perfection in the story. I expected some holes, and that's exactly what I got.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

MPSai wrote...

Well consider for most of the game you had no clue how to get through the Omega 4 Relay and were looking for anything that would help your squad in the final battle.

Also because then we wouldn't have a game.

That I can overlook. The one plot contrivance I COULDN'T overlook was Shepard inexplicably taking every competent person off the ship in the shuttle right before it was attacked by Collectors. I mean really? Where were they even all GOING?

That was probably the only issue I had with the story as well. It should have been better explained and better incorporated into the game because in it's present state it feels rushed. With that being said, I didn't expect perfection in the story. I expected some holes, and that's exactly what I got.

The ironic thing is that Joker asks that very question if you talk to him after the Collector attack and before the final mission. It is as if Bioware themselves didn't know the answer to that question and decided to turn it into an ironic  joke.

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 01 mars 2010 - 10:00 .

[Agent.0.Fortune]

[bold]Agreed.  ME2 as a whole feels like just a big collection of side missions instead of an actual sequel.  An actual sequel tends to involve story and character progression.  All we did was get a dozen people killed.[/bold]

This. ^^^

I remember my first playthough, thinking, OK got my team together now lets start the campaign, only to have it end after the first battle.

I really enjoyed the what was there, but it ended so abruptly I never realized that collecting allies and loyalty was the entirety of the game.

[Agent.0.Fortune]

[bold]Agreed.  ME2 as a whole feels like just a big collection of side missions instead of an actual sequel.  An actual sequel tends to involve story and character progression.  All we did was get a dozen people killed.[/bold]

This. ^^^

I remember my first playthough, thinking, OK got my team together now lets start the campaign, only to have it end after the first battle.

I really enjoyed the what was there, but it ended so abruptly I never realized that collecting allies and loyalty was the entirety of the game.

[Terraneaux]

The big weakness of ME2's story is that it doesn't try to build on what came before, it tries to take the series in an entirely new direction, which I think was a terrible choice.

[jasonontko]

Luc0s wrote...

People don't seem to realize that it's not only Mass Effect (2) that has this problem with "let's do favors for people while in the meanwhile there is a big reaper thread". Actually, many games (RPGs) have this "problem".


To give on of the best games ever made as an example:

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time: "Link please gather all 10 of my cuccos!" "Link please get that Keaton mask for me!" "Link please find my dad!" "Link please get me my medicine ASAP!"

All people keep asking Link for small favors while he actually should worry about stopping Ganondorf. But does this make Zelda OoT a bad game? No, absolutely not!


Back to Mass Effect. In ME2 these loyalty missions actually make sense. It's all about trust.

Think about it. Let's pretent you're one of the people on TIM's list of potential crewmembers for Shepard.
Commander Shepard, out of the blue appears in front of you, he tells you he's working with Cerberus, a TERRORIST organization, to stop the Collectors. He also tells you he needs YOU to go on a SUICIDE mission with him. Most people would laugh at him or think he's crazy, but not you, you decide you'll go with him to help him on his suicide mission. But how can you be sure you can trust this guy called Shepard? After all, he IS working with Cerberus.
Commander Shepard is concerned about his new crew. He has to make sure his whole crew will give a full 100% at the suicide mission. So in order to gain their trust and support, he decides to help his crew with their personal burden.

Read what I just typed and eventually read it twice. Now you should realize that ME2, including the loyalty missions, make perfect sense.

Dude you did not understand my point.  I am NOT talking about the internal consistency of one epidsode, I am talking about the internal consistency of the trilogy, hence Zelda analogy is complete total fail.  I suggest you read MY post again.  I would not have a quarrel with ME2 had it been the first installment.  Problem by making ME2 the second installment left the trilogy with plot holes and plot crontrivances due to the story construction of the two installments.  Seriously read the post again.   But obviously they never planned this trilogy out before they said ME was a trilogy  which is the source of my disappointment.

[jasonontko]

OptimusAlex wrote...

i always thought of ME2's plot as being a "getting all your sh!t ready for the big epic conclusion in ME3


oh and by the way, if you don't like the plot of the game, quit whining about it and dont play it anymore, simple as that

Oh I see I cant provide Bioware any feedback.  Does this also apply to the throngs of fans demanding their favorit character be in ME3?  Are they all whinners too?  Should they just accept whatever bioware puts in front of them?  Hell why even have game forums if feedback is whinning?  Are you saying the forum is only reserved for those that have uncritical acclaim for the game?   The source of my nerd rage is that the trilogy could have been much more than it currently is which can all be laid at the feet of not planning the entire trilogy  before starting development.  As it is now we have 2 separate games connected by artifical contrivences and dialog options.   Both games are good but the trilogy and the "Mass Effects" concept has been delt serious blow, the ground braking potential of series has been pissed away to bring more sexy characters.  If they were smart and planned this s*** out, they would have brought in the sexy characters in ME1 and have it be character based wh\\\\ch would set you up for the ME1 plot (sovereign attack on the Citdel) in ME2 which then would have been the perfect setup for ME3.     

Modifié par jasonontko, 02 mars 2010 - 01:31 .

[ReTrAcK08]

I was under the impression that the game's plot was Shepard's quest to assemble a loyal team of badassery to stick it to the the Collectors/Reapers. I don't understand how people assume that just the collector missions are the main plot while everything else is a side-quest. The whole premise of the game is to recruit a team for a suicide mission. I can understand yearning for some more screen time with the Collector's/Reapers, but personally I didn't want everyone's recruitment mission being basically "hurr durr, reapers are bad so I halp joo!" or every loyal mission being "collector's harmed meh in "x" ways, halp Shepard!"

Modifié par ReTrAcK08, 02 mars 2010 - 01:19 .

[jasonontko]

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

I was under the impression that the game's plot was Shepard's quest to assemble a loyal team of badassery to stick it to the the Collectors/Reapers. I don't understand how people assume that just the collector missions are the main plot while everything else is a side-quest. The whole premise of the game is to recruit a team for a suicide mission. I can understand yearning for some more screen time with the Collector's/Reapers, but personally I didn't want everyone's recruitment mission being basically "hurr durr, reapers are bad so I halp joo!" or every loyal mission being "collector's harmed meh in "x" ways, halp Shepard!"

The issue with plot is that it does not mesh well with the ME1 plot which result in disrupting the trilogy with plot holes and plot contrivances.  My OP was not about loyalty missions specifically but trilogy planning which is sorely missing.

Modifié par jasonontko, 02 mars 2010 - 01:43 .

[ReTrAcK08]

jasonontko wrote...
The issue with plot is that it does not mesh well with the ME1 plot which result in disrupting the trilogy with plot holes and plot contrivances.  Mine OP was not about loyalty missions specifically but trilogy planning which is sorely missing by what happened in ME2.

You mind listing said plot holes. After reading your OP again I see your problem. but you fail to realize that throughout the game we are basically waiting for TIM to learn when the Collectors will strike or show up again. While waiting for that to happen, Shepard contiunues gathering team-mates and more importantly their loyalty. I beleive that the majority of squadmates are not intrested in becoming martyrs.

After gathering the Reaper IFF the sense of urgency really kicks in (at least for me.) The Normandy crew was captured and the ship was nearly lost itself. There are consqequnces for going after the Collector's too early or too late.

[Kileyan]

ME2 in a nutshell. Fight some cannon fodder flunkies over and over, with the twist that some dude in a control room takes control of a flunky over and over.



In between that you collect your party and do a single token favor for each, then bam you enter the gate that leads not to a new set of systems to explore, but a single base where you get the big let down of not killing your nemesis throughout the whole game, but kill a single baby reaper that to me looked like a giant puppet on strings.



Great game but not epic enough for me, and yeh it was the middle child of a trilogy, but as many have said, so much was reset, so much ignored from the first of the trilogy, it felt more like a different game, not a continuation.

[ReTrAcK08]

Kileyan wrote...

ME2 in a nutshell. Fight some cannon fodder flunkies over and over, with the twist that some dude in a control room takes control of a flunky over and over.

In between that you collect your party and do a single token favor for each, then bam you enter the gate that leads not to a new set of systems to explore, but a single base where you get the big let down of not killing your nemesis throughout the whole game, but kill a single baby reaper that to me looked like a giant puppet on strings.

Great game but not epic enough for me, and yeh it was the middle child of a trilogy, but as many have said, so much was reset, so much ignored from the first of the trilogy, it felt more like a different game, not a continuation.

ME1 in a nutshell. Rogue space cop attacks Council with cannon fodder robots, but actually space cop is a puppet for a bigger robot . C WUT I DID THAR?

I can understand if you don't like ME2'S plot, but ME1 story wasn't some original work of art at all; Just well executed.

Modifié par ReTrAcK08, 02 mars 2010 - 01:55 .

[GenericPlayer2]

We all know that this is a team building mission. But a few changes to the script could have made things so much more interesting.

When you escape Lazarus station you find out that billions were spent to bring you back to stop the colony attacks. You can take it at face value or argue secret Cerberus agenda, either way there is a dire need for your skill and leadership right now. You need to go to Freedom's Progress quickly to find out what happened.

Then there is Horizon. Again the sense of urgency and crisis continues. Sadly this ends with the collector ship. You now know where the collectors are, you know what you need to navigate the Omega-4 relay. Suddenly there is no urgency, no colonies are being attacked, and the toughest decisions you have to take regard resolving team arguments. No news, no cut scences of any more colonies being attacked while you delay getting the IFF. The crisis is suddenly over for no good reason, and does not re-emerge until the crew is abducted a long time later. Having to choose between continued team building/loyalty and continued colony abductions would have made the game infinitely more interesting.

Just for kicks, this playthrough I am on now, I did not recruit Tali until after the IFF mission. As such, the crew got abducted before I could start her trial. Miranda says that some of the specialists are distracted and its not a good idea to go through the relay now. When I decided to go through the relay anyway, I felt like I was taking a real risk. When I got to Chakwas and the crew, 'I would never abandon my crew' felt like it had real meaning, where as before the truth was I had already done all missions and had nothing better to do. It really enriched the experience. Now I imagine if the game were written differently and I could save some colonists or spare some colonies being attacked, it could have been a much richer story.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 02 mars 2010 - 01:58 .

[ReTrAcK08]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

We all know that this is a team building mission. But a few changes to the script could have made things so much more interesting.

When you escape Lazarus station you find out that billions were spent to bring you back to stop the colony attacks. You can take it at face value or argue secret Cerberus agenda, either way there is a dire need for your skill and leadership right now. You need to go to Freedom's Progress quickly to find out what happened.

Then there is Horizon. Again the sense of urgency and crisis continues. Sadly this ends with the collector ship. You now know where the collectors are, you know what you need to navigate the Omega-4 relay. Suddenly there is no urgency, no colonies are being attacked, and the toughest decisions you have to take regard resolving team arguments. No news, no cut scences of any more colonies being attacked while you delay getting the IFF. The crisis is suddenly over for no good reason, and does not re-emerge until the crew is abducted a long time later. Having to choose between continued team building/loyalty and continued colony abductions would have made the game infinitely more interesting.

Just for kicks, this playthrough I am on now, I did not recruit Tali until after the IFF mission. As such, the crew got abducted before I could start her trial. Miranda says that some of the specialists are distracted and its not a good idea to go through the relay now. When I decided to go through the relay anyway, I felt like I was taking a real risk. When I got to Chakwas and the crew, 'I would never abandon my crew' felt like it had real meaning, where as before the truth was I had already done all missions and had nothing better to do. It really enriched the experience. Now I imagine if the game were written differently and I could save some colonists or spare some colonies being attacked, it could have been a much richer story.

The Collector's know that Shepard needs the IFF, so they wait for Shepard to spring the trap. Why would the Collector's risk another Horizion (and further drawing attention to themselves amongst the galatic community) when all they have to do is basically wait and capture/kill the galaxies ace in the hole; Commander Shepard.

The only problem I have is where and what exactly did Shepard and the rest of team do when the left the ship while EDI was installing the IFF? If anyone could enlightnen me on that I would appreciate it.

[Kileyan]

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

ME2 in a nutshell. Fight some cannon fodder flunkies over and over, with the twist that some dude in a control room takes control of a flunky over and over.

In between that you collect your party and do a single token favor for each, then bam you enter the gate that leads not to a new set of systems to explore, but a single base where you get the big let down of not killing your nemesis throughout the whole game, but kill a single baby reaper that to me looked like a giant puppet on strings.

Great game but not epic enough for me, and yeh it was the middle child of a trilogy, but as many have said, so much was reset, so much ignored from the first of the trilogy, it felt more like a different game, not a continuation.

ME1 in a nutshell. Rogue space cop attacks Council with cannon fodder robots, but actually space cop is a puppet for a bigger robot . C WUT I DID THAR?

I can understand if you don't like ME2'S plot, but ME1 story wasn't some original work of art at all; Just well executed.

Who said it was original? It was simply better to me, and purely a matter of opinion and taste. Still, I cannot imagine that i am the only person, whether a long time ME fan or a newbie to the game that was a little shocked that once you complete your team, that is the whole game. No exploring the relay it is *bam* on rails to final mission and game over.

Too much recruiting people and way too little to do with them. It is almost as if they spent years designing the team, recruiting them and their personalities(all top notch), then spent crunch time contriving a skeleton of a story in which to insert everyone into.

It was like, ok ships full now, games over:(

[Nozybidaj]

jasonontko wrote...
The source of my nerd rage is that the trilogy could have been much more than it currently is which can all be laid at the feet of not planning the entire trilogy  before starting development.  As it is now we have 2 separate games connected by artifical contrivences and dialog options.   Both games are good but the trilogy and the "Mass Effects" concept has been dealt serious blow, the ground braking potential of series has been pissed away to bring more sexy characters.

That is so spot on.  /clap

[jasonontko]

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

jasonontko wrote...
The issue with plot is that it does not mesh well with the ME1 plot which result in disrupting the trilogy with plot holes and plot contrivances.  Mine OP was not about loyalty missions specifically but trilogy planning which is sorely missing by what happened in ME2.

You mind listing said plot holes. After reading your OP again I see your problem. but you fail to realize that throughout the game we are basically waiting for TIM to learn when the Collectors will strike or show up again. While waiting for that to happen, Shepard contiunues gathering team-mates and more importantly their loyalty. I beleive that the majority of squadmates are not intrested in becoming martyrs.

After gathering the Reaper IFF the sense of urgency really kicks in (at least for me.) The Normandy crew was captured and the ship was nearly lost itself. There are consqequnces for going after the Collector's too early or too late.

Plot holes

1.  ME1 council acknowledges reapers at the end,  ME2 council now say they dont exists.

2.  Cerberous was an out and out evil orginaztion in ME1 with no redeeming quality.  There was zero gray in that organization.  Now they are morally ambigious.

3.  Thermal clips.  Why cant you fire without one now even if you wait for it to cool down.

4.  I could go into brethers in a vaccume but that is a whole other issue. 

Plot contrivances.

1.  Having to kill Shepard off in the begining so he works with Cerberous.  This mave have been for the cinematic affect because they just thought it was a cool idea which it was not.

2. Everbody board the shuttle so collectors can steal the crew.

3. 100,000 humans go missing and the Alliance cant stop one ship that the Normandy was able to take out in two shots.

4.  All organic life is in danger and people are concerned about lab assitants.


I porbable forget a half dozen more.

Now I can fix all these problems fairly easily, make ME2 as the first installment.  Would have made a much stronger trilogy.  Should have introduced the sexy charcaters first then save the Citdel in ME2 , perfect setup for ME3, no plot holes, no contrivences, no bending the story ARC into a pretzle to accomidate the ME 3 setup.  Further this would have been much better and easier showing the player the effects of their decesions on the universe which was I thought the whole idea behind "Mass Effects" being a trilogy.

Modifié par jasonontko, 02 mars 2010 - 02:14 .

[ReTrAcK08]

Kileyan wrote...

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

ME2 in a nutshell. Fight some cannon fodder flunkies over and over, with the twist that some dude in a control room takes control of a flunky over and over.

In between that you collect your party and do a single token favor for each, then bam you enter the gate that leads not to a new set of systems to explore, but a single base where you get the big let down of not killing your nemesis throughout the whole game, but kill a single baby reaper that to me looked like a giant puppet on strings.

Great game but not epic enough for me, and yeh it was the middle child of a trilogy, but as many have said, so much was reset, so much ignored from the first of the trilogy, it felt more like a different game, not a continuation.

ME1 in a nutshell. Rogue space cop attacks Council with cannon fodder robots, but actually space cop is a puppet for a bigger robot . C WUT I DID THAR?

I can understand if you don't like ME2'S plot, but ME1 story wasn't some original work of art at all; Just well executed.

Who said it was original? It was simply better to me, and purely a matter of opinion and taste. Still, I cannot imagine that i am the only person, whether a long time ME fan or a newbie to the game that was a little shocked that once you complete your team, that is the whole game. No exploring the relay it is *bam* on rails to final mission and game over.

Too much recruiting people and way too little to do with them. It is almost as if they spent years designing the team, recruiting them and their personalities(all top notch), then spent crunch time contriving a skeleton of a story in which to insert everyone into.

It was like, ok ships full now, games over:(

I don't think it was ever a secret that entering the Omega 4 Relay was the start of the suicide mission, but seeing as I followed the game before realease that makes it irrelavent. However, It's hard to imagine much exploring going in near the event horizon of a black hole. 

[GenericPlayer2]

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

The Collector's know that Shepard needs the IFF, so they wait for Shepard to spring the trap. Why would the Collector's risk another Horizion (and further drawing attention to themselves amongst the galatic community) when all they have to do is basically wait and capture/kill the galaxies ace in the hole; Commander Shepard.

The only problem I have is where and what exactly did Shepard and the rest of team do when the left the ship while EDI was installing the IFF? If anyone could enlightnen me on that I would appreciate it.

The collectors have a reaper to build. It ismade very clear on the Collector mission when they reference all the empty pods that many more humans are needed. There is no reason they would not continue to harvest colonies. Horizon was special because TIM played a hunch that they would come after a former team mate and he engineered that situation. Either Shepard is the main objective of the Collectors or building the human reaper, but jumping between the two makes the story inconsistent. If the reaper was almost done and just needed Shep's body to complete their 'master piece' then that would make sense.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 02 mars 2010 - 02:15 .

[Nozybidaj]

jasonontko wrote...
 they just thought it was a cool idea

I think that sums up much of ME2.  It almost feels like after the end of ME1 they all got in a big conference room and said "Now what?".  So they just started brainstorming ideas "Hey know what would be cool?".  Then they just took all the ideas and threw them into a game and called it a sequel.

There is some cool stuff in ME2 and some interesting moments, but its all just a hodgepodge of random stuff that for the most part has zero connection to any of the story that was set up in ME1.

ME2 would have been much better served as a spinoff staring Conrad as the protagonist instead of Shepard while they worked out an actual sequel to ME1.

[kregano]

Let's face it, ME2's plot was going to be screwed over no matter what because the trilogy is going to end with Shepard's showdown with the Reapers. With the Reapers stuck in Dark Space and there being no other way to get to them besides the Citadel relay, there was effectively no real way to get a game focused on one character to work without adding some sort of semi-throwaway villains. Having Shepard fly around the galaxy putting out brush fires and setting up alliances to deal with the Reapers would make sense in the big picture, but would utterly suck as a game and tons of people would complain about it being filler that could've been stuck in ME1 as DLC. Going up against Cerberus as ME2's villains would've felt lame, since you kicked their asses every time you ran into them in ME1, and the heretic Geth got hammered in ME1, making them much less of a threat. Having the Terminus System powers team up against the Alliance would've only made sense if they had a derelict Reaper to examine and none of their people turned into Husks/got indoctrinated, otherwise they wouldn't contribute anything to the whole Reaper arc of the trilogy. Basically, the only way the trilogy could work without ME2's plot being less about the Reapers is having the all war with the Reapers in ME2, then dealing with the aftermath in ME3.

[jasonontko]

Nozybidaj wrote...

jasonontko wrote...
 they just thought it was a cool idea

I think that sums up much of ME2.  It almost feels like after the end of ME1 they all got in a big conference room and said "Now what?".  So they just started brainstorming ideas "Hey know what would be cool?".  Then they just took all the ideas and threw them into a game and called it a sequel.

There is some cool stuff in ME2 and some interesting moments, but its all just a hodgepodge of random stuff that for the most part has zero connection to any of the story that was set up in ME1.

ME2 would have been much better served as a spinoff staring Conrad as the protagonist instead of Shepard while they worked out an actual sequel to ME1.

Totally agree. Unfortunately you can appeal to the lowest common denominator and still make art with vdieo games.  Bioshock I thought did that well, it made some coin too.