133 réponses à ce sujet

[ReTrAcK08]

jasonontko wrote...

Plot holes

1.  ME1 council acknowledges reapers at the end,  ME2 council now say they dont exists.

2.  Cerberous was an out and out evil orginaztion in ME1 with no redeeming quality.  There was zero gray in that organization.  Now they are morally ambigious.

3.  Thermal clips.  Why cant you fire without one now even if you wait for it to cool down.

4.  I could go into brethers in a vaccume but that is a whole other issue. 

Plot contrivances.

1.  Having to kill Shepard off in the begining so he works with Cerberous.  This mave have been for the cinematic affect because they just thought it was a cool idea which it was not.

2. Everbody board the shuttle so collectors can steal the crew.

3. 100,000 humans go missing and the Alliance cant stop one ship that the Normandy was able to take out in two shots.

4.  All organic life is in danger and people are concerned about lab assitants.


I porbable forget a half dozen more.

Now I can fix all these problems fairly easily, make ME2 as the first installment.  Would have made a much stronger trilogy.  Should have itrouduced the sexy charcaters first then save the Citdel in ME2 , perfect setup for ME3, no plot holes, no contrivences, no bending the story ARC into a pretzle to accomidate the ME 3 setup.  Further this would have been much better and easier showing the player the effects of their decesions on the universe which was I thought the whole idea behind "Mass Effects" being a trilogy.

Plot Holes-

1. ME1 council could be dead. Also, the councilers are nothing but polticians. Saying that all organic life is nearing it's end is going to do nothing but make people think you are crazy. All evidence points to the Geth and Saren being responsible for the Citadel attack. The reaper remains were all salvaged by several species and have never been brought to public knowledge.

2. The end of ME2 shows that TIM was only intrested in gathering Collector/Reaper technology for human dominance. TIM puts up a front so he can keep Shepard an ally. If TIM was telling Shepard that the only reason he is confronting the Collectors for Cerberus dominance from the get go, I hardly think Shepard would want to work for him.

3. Codex explains thermal clips.

4. Artist choice, but I'm not going to argue such a moot point.

Plot Contrivances-

1. Matter of opinion. I doubt they expected everyone to like it.

2. I just want to know what they were doing, but you have a valid point because I have no idea why they all left the ship.

3. These were all Terminus colonies likely backed by independent foundations and not the Alliance. Besides, the codex explains that the bulk of Alliance vessels are guarding the Citadal after the massive losses suffered at the hands of Saren.

4. Once again, we had zero knowledge of how to enter the Omega 4 Relay. Basically, we had to wait for TIM to find out when and where the Collectors were going to strike.

If you paid attention a bit more and read the codex, you might realize that you just don't like the story as opposed to it somehow being incomplete.

Modifié par ReTrAcK08, 02 mars 2010 - 02:37 .

[jasonontko]

kregano wrote...

Let's face it, ME2's plot was going to be screwed over no matter what because the trilogy is going to end with Shepard's showdown with the Reapers. With the Reapers stuck in Dark Space and there being no other way to get to them besides the Citadel relay, there was effectively no real way to get a game focused on one character to work without adding some sort of semi-throwaway villains. Having Shepard fly around the galaxy putting out brush fires and setting up alliances to deal with the Reapers would make sense in the big picture, but would utterly suck as a game and tons of people would complain about it being filler that could've been stuck in ME1 as DLC. Going up against Cerberus as ME2's villains would've felt lame, since you kicked their asses every time you ran into them in ME1, and the heretic Geth got hammered in ME1, making them much less of a threat. Having the Terminus System powers team up against the Alliance would've only made sense if they had a derelict Reaper to examine and none of their people turned into Husks/got indoctrinated, otherwise they wouldn't contribute anything to the whole Reaper arc of the trilogy. Basically, the only way the trilogy could work without ME2's plot being less about the Reapers is having the all war with the Reapers in ME2, then dealing with the aftermath in ME3.

You see that is the problem, they shot their wade in ME1 as far as story advancment hence poor trilogy planning.  However I do think their are more creative event based storylines that could have continued the fight against the Reapers in ME2 without full blown invasion.  Now I like sexy characters but again should have been in ME1 to begin with, once you go down the event based story road their is no turning back.

[Nozybidaj]

jasonontko wrote...

Totally agree. Unfortunately you can appeal to the lowest common denominator and still make art with vdieo games.  Bioshock I thought did that well, it made some coin too. 

Ha, yeah.  Lowest common denominator seems to be synonymous with "larger market share" in the eyes of a game developer.  Sadly that is usually the case.

[GenericPlayer2]

Nozybidaj wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

Totally agree. Unfortunately you can appeal to the lowest common denominator and still make art with vdieo games.  Bioshock I thought did that well, it made some coin too. 

Ha, yeah.  Lowest common denominator seems to be synonymous with "larger market share" in the eyes of a game developer.  Sadly that is usually the case.

Its a sad state of affairs when people are more concerned with having their LI on their team in ME3 instead of actual plot or story.

[Nozybidaj]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Its a sad state of affairs when people are more concerned with having their LI on their team in ME3 instead of actual plot or story.

Pfft, I'm still worried about it in ME2.  Can't even bother to think about ME3 yet.

[kregano]

jasonontko wrote...

kregano wrote...

Let's face it, ME2's plot was going to be screwed over no matter what because the trilogy is going to end with Shepard's showdown with the Reapers. With the Reapers stuck in Dark Space and there being no other way to get to them besides the Citadel relay, there was effectively no real way to get a game focused on one character to work without adding some sort of semi-throwaway villains. Having Shepard fly around the galaxy putting out brush fires and setting up alliances to deal with the Reapers would make sense in the big picture, but would utterly suck as a game and tons of people would complain about it being filler that could've been stuck in ME1 as DLC. Going up against Cerberus as ME2's villains would've felt lame, since you kicked their asses every time you ran into them in ME1, and the heretic Geth got hammered in ME1, making them much less of a threat. Having the Terminus System powers team up against the Alliance would've only made sense if they had a derelict Reaper to examine and none of their people turned into Husks/got indoctrinated, otherwise they wouldn't contribute anything to the whole Reaper arc of the trilogy. Basically, the only way the trilogy could work without ME2's plot being less about the Reapers is having the all war with the Reapers in ME2, then dealing with the aftermath in ME3.

You see that is the problem, they shot their wade in ME1 as far as story advancment hence poor trilogy planning.  However I do think their are more creative event based storylines that could have continued the fight against the Reapers in ME2 without full blown invasion.  Now I like sexy characters but again should have been in ME1 to begin with, once you go down the event based story road their is no turning back.

Well, I guess they could've gone with another Reaper manipulating the Terminus Systems into waging war against the Alliance (and by extension the Council), but that might've been too similar to ME1. Even if Bioware didn't have get revealed until the final parts of the game, it would've been sort of predictable due to the fact that the Terminus powers suddenly getting the balls and abilities to go one on one with the Council wouldn't make sense unless the Reapers were involved somehow.

[MusicToEat]

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

I was under the impression that the game's plot was Shepard's quest to assemble a loyal team of badassery to stick it to the the Collectors/Reapers. I don't understand how people assume that just the collector missions are the main plot while everything else is a side-quest. The whole premise of the game is to recruit a team for a suicide mission. I can understand yearning for some more screen time with the Collector's/Reapers, but personally I didn't want everyone's recruitment mission being basically "hurr durr, reapers are bad so I halp joo!" or every loyal mission being "collector's harmed meh in "x" ways, halp Shepard!"

The problem with that is that we already had a bad ass crew from the first game.  Just let us keep them and develop a big cool story to follow instead of throwing everything from game one away and starting over from scratch.

[jasonontko]

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

Plot holes

1.  ME1 council acknowledges reapers at the end,  ME2 council now say they dont exists.

2.  Cerberous was an out and out evil orginaztion in ME1 with no redeeming quality.  There was zero gray in that organization.  Now they are morally ambigious.

3.  Thermal clips.  Why cant you fire without one now even if you wait for it to cool down.

4.  I could go into brethers in a vaccume but that is a whole other issue. 

Plot contrivances.

1.  Having to kill Shepard off in the begining so he works with Cerberous.  This mave have been for the cinematic affect because they just thought it was a cool idea which it was not.

2. Everbody board the shuttle so collectors can steal the crew.

3. 100,000 humans go missing and the Alliance cant stop one ship that the Normandy was able to take out in two shots.

4.  All organic life is in danger and people are concerned about lab assitants.


I porbable forget a half dozen more.

Now I can fix all these problems fairly easily, make ME2 as the first installment.  Would have made a much stronger trilogy.  Should have itrouduced the sexy charcaters first then save the Citdel in ME2 , perfect setup for ME3, no plot holes, no contrivences, no bending the story ARC into a pretzle to accomidate the ME 3 setup.  Further this would have been much better and easier showing the player the effects of their decesions on the universe which was I thought the whole idea behind "Mass Effects" being a trilogy.

Plot Holes-

1. ME1 council could be dead. Also, the councilers are nothing but polticians. Saying that all organic life is nearing it's end is going to do nothing but make people think you are crazy. All evidence points to the Geth and Saren being responsible for the Citadel attack. The reaper remains were all salvaged by several species and have never been brought to public knowledge.

2. The end of ME2 shows that TIM was only intrested in gathering Collector/Reaper technology for human dominance. TIM puts up a front so he can keep Shepard an ally. If TIM was telling Shepard that the only reason he is confronting the Collectors for Cerberus dominance from the get go, I hardly think Shepard would want to work for him.

3. Codex explains thermal clips.

4. Artist choice, but I'm not going to argue such a moot point.

Plot Contrivances-

1. Matter of opinion. I doubt they expected everyone to like it.

2. I just want to know what they were doing, but you have a valid point because I have no idea why they all left the ship.

3. These were all Terminus colonies likely backed by independent foundations and not the Alliance. Besides, the codex explains that the bulk of Alliance vessels are guarding the Citadal after the massive losses suffered at the hands of Saren.

4. Once again, we had zero knowledge of how to enter the Omega 4 Relay. Basically, we had to wait for TIM to find out when and where the Collectors were going to strike.

1. Would it not be nice to have the decesion to keep the council alive have some Mass Effects instead of a plot hole?   Human council will not even see you which is a utterly contrived to maintain linear story arc.

2.  Does not explain fully how Miranda and especially Jabcob join as well as half your crew.  I mean seriously it like working for the N****.   Dr C explaination is especially weak, she loved space travel like you cant do that any where else but with space N****.

3.  They wanted ammo, so they magic it into existence.

1. Its lame to kill off the main character and raise him from the dead, that story been around for 2010 years.

3. Sorry not buying it, earth quake happens in Haiti do we say its the Caribbean.  Or how about alien life forms taking hundread of thousands from Sweeden, and US says hey thats Europe's problem.

PS

Damn I had to clean that up alot.

Modifié par jasonontko, 02 mars 2010 - 02:57 .

[-D-C-D-]

I actually thought the threat was more immediate in ME1 than in ME2...



I mean, during everything you do in ME1, Saren is getting closer to opening a gateway for the Reapers to come through and start killing EVERYONE.



In ME2 the Collectors still have a LONG job ahead of them, even at the time of going through the Omega 4. In 2 years they took 10,000 people, and millions more would be needed to finish the Reaper? Sounds like we have a fair amount of time to deal with outside issues IMO.



With the exception of going to get the crew back after el abductiono, there's little to no sense of urgency in fact, at least for me.



Even after the Reaper is built, it'd have to go to the Citadel and activate the relay without being obliterated...

[BatarianBob]

monkeycamoran wrote...

ARK of ILKS wrote...

word.

I agree, if my daughter was kidnapped, I wouldnt go around doing personal favors to the police or FBI. Its stupid.

FBI guy: Hey, I know your daughter was kidnapped (probably raped to death by now) but would you mind going to china and get my laundry? thanks dude, your the best. This will earn you my loyalty and make me work doubely hard to find your missing daughter.

Stupid, just stupid.....

Saren's looking for the Conduit. Why don't you give advice to a pair of quarreling strangers about what to do with their baby?

Pretty much.

KOTOR, Mass Effect 1, and Dragon Age all had you put saving the world on hold to find Carth's son, or recover Wrex's armor, or kill Morrigan's mom.

When something was totally okay before but now and only now is it a fatal glaring flaw that raped your childhood, it's hard to take the complaints seriously.

[MusicToEat]

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

2. The end of ME2 shows that TIM was only intrested in gathering Collector/Reaper technology for human dominance. TIM puts up a front so he can keep Shepard an ally. If TIM was telling Shepard that the only reason he is confronting the Collectors for Cerberus dominance from the get go, I hardly think Shepard would want to work for him.

Since I chose Sole Survivor as my past in ME1 and in ME1 I find out that Cerberus is responsible fore Akuze and I also find out that I wasn't the sole survior, but that Cerberus experimented/killed the other surviors, I hardly think Shep would have wanted to worked with him from the begining.  Not even as a thank you for raising him from the dead.

[kregano]

jasonontko wrote...
3. Sorry not buying it, earth quake happens in Haiti do we say its the Caribbean.  Or how about alien life forms taking hundread of thousands from Sweeden, and US says hey thats Europe's problem.

It makes sense when you remember that in ME1, a lot of aliens hated humanity's guts and didn't think they deserved consideration for a Council seat a head of species that had been on the galactic scene for much longer. Add to that the fact that humanity either got a seat on the Council or took it over and the end result is a lot of anti-human sentiment and the opinion that humanity needs to suck it up if they want to play in the big leagues.

[Reiella]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Its a sad state of affairs when people are more concerned with having their LI on their team in ME3 instead of actual plot or story.

I dunno, it says something about character development, which I think does relate to plot and story rather intrinsically.

[ReTrAcK08]

1. Wount it not be nice to have the
decesions to keep the council alive and have some Mass Effects from
that instead of a plot hole?   Human council will not even see utterly
contrived to maintain linear story arc.

2.  Does not explain
fully how Miranda and especially Jabcob join as well as half your
crew.  I mean seriously it like working for the ****s.   Dr
C explaination is especially weak, she loved space travel like you cant
do that any where else but with space ****s.

3.  They wanted ammo, so they magic it into existence.

1. Its lame to kill off the main chracter and raise him from the dead, that story been around for 2010 years.

3.
Sorry not buying it, earth quake happens inHaiti do we say its the
Carribean.  Or how about allian life forms taking hundread of thousands
from Sweeden, and US says hey that Europe's problem.

1. Sorry what?

2. Again what?

3. Obviously, but many people believed that ME1's gameplay was sub-par and ammo has caused people to utilize different weapons as opposed to holding down the trigger with the AR or pistol "spraying and praying" from room to room. Gameplay trumps lore especially seeing how minor it is.

1. What part of opinion do you not understand?

3. Yes, because traveling across the Galaxy is as easy as flying two hours south of Florida. The Haiti event was immediate and recognized in various countries within the hour. The human abductions have no explanation and are random. Only Shepard and TIM recognize the threat.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you anymore. You are obviously getting angry because you are becoming extremely incohearent.








 

Modifié par ReTrAcK08, 02 mars 2010 - 03:07 .

[MusicToEat]

Taranatar9 wrote...

Pretty much.

KOTOR, Mass Effect 1, and Dragon Age all had you put saving the world on hold to find Carth's son, or recover Wrex's armor, or kill Morrigan's mom.

When something was totally okay before but now and only now is it a fatal glaring flaw that raped your childhood, it's hard to take the complaints seriously.

Finding Wrex's armor was just a small side story though.  It added flavor to an epic story line.  ME2 is all side story.

When the side quests are 10 times as long as the main quest, things are out of wack.

[jasonontko]

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

[qoute]1. Wount it not be nice to have the
decesions to keep the council alive and have some Mass Effects from
that instead of a plot hole?   Human council will not even see utterly
contrived to maintain linear story arc.

2.  Does not explain
fully how Miranda and especially Jabcob join as well as half your
crew.  I mean seriously it like working for the ****s.   Dr
C explaination is especially weak, she loved space travel like you cant
do that any where else but with space ****s.

3.  They wanted ammo, so they magic it into existence.

1. Its lame to kill off the main chracter and raise him from the dead, that story been around for 2010 years.

3.
Sorry not buying it, earth quake happens inHaiti do we say its the
Carribean.  Or how about allian life forms taking hundread of thousands
from Sweeden, and US says hey that Europe's problem.[/qoute]

1. Sorry what?

2. Again what?

3. Obviously, but many people believed that ME1's gameplay was sub-par and ammo has caused people to utilize different weapons as opposed to holding down the trigger with the AR or pistol "spraying and praying" from room to room. Gameplay trumps lore especially seeing how minor it is.

1. What part of opinion do you not understand?

3. Yes, because traveling across the Galaxy is as easy as flying two hours south of Florida. The Haiti event was immediate and recognized in various countries within the hour. The human abductions have no explanation and are random. Only Shepard and TIM recognize the threat.








 

Sorry had to clean it up.  The censors understandably dont like old German poltical parties.  Read it now.

Modifié par jasonontko, 02 mars 2010 - 03:06 .

[ReTrAcK08]

MusicToEat wrote...

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

2. The end of ME2 shows that TIM was only intrested in gathering Collector/Reaper technology for human dominance. TIM puts up a front so he can keep Shepard an ally. If TIM was telling Shepard that the only reason he is confronting the Collectors for Cerberus dominance from the get go, I hardly think Shepard would want to work for him.

Since I chose Sole Survivor as my past in ME1 and in ME1 I find out that Cerberus is responsible fore Akuze and I also find out that I wasn't the sole survior, but that Cerberus experimented/killed the other surviors, I hardly think Shep would have wanted to worked with him from the begining.  Not even as a thank you for raising him from the dead.

Shepard doesn't have the resource to confront the Collector threat on his own. Cerberus is the only party backing Shepard up. I don't think Shepard is going to hold a grudge especially seeing how human lives are on the line.

Modifié par ReTrAcK08, 02 mars 2010 - 03:11 .

[jasonontko]

1. What part of opinion do you not understand?

So you don't agree it is the most over used cliche in literature, can you name one cliche that is more over used and then I will cede the point.

3. Yes, because traveling across the Galaxy is as easy as flying two hours south of Florida. The Haiti event was immediate and recognized in various countries within the hour. The human abductions have no explanation and are random. Only Shepard and TIM recognize the threat.

Actually Mass Relays are faster even across the Galaxy.

Modifié par jasonontko, 02 mars 2010 - 03:15 .

[jasonontko]

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

MusicToEat wrote...

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

2. The end of ME2 shows that TIM was only intrested in gathering Collector/Reaper technology for human dominance. TIM puts up a front so he can keep Shepard an ally. If TIM was telling Shepard that the only reason he is confronting the Collectors for Cerberus dominance from the get go, I hardly think Shepard would want to work for him.

Since I chose Sole Survivor as my past in ME1 and in ME1 I find out that Cerberus is responsible fore Akuze and I also find out that I wasn't the sole survior, but that Cerberus experimented/killed the other surviors, I hardly think Shep would have wanted to worked with him from the begining.  Not even as a thank you for raising him from the dead.

Shepard doesn't have the resource to confront the Collector threat on his own. Cerberus is the only party backing Shepard up. I don't think Shepard is going to hold a grudge especially seeing how human lives are on the line.

Yes and you dont think that is contrived?  Pretty amazing to me that neither the Alliance nor the Council are willing to help Shep after what he has done.  That is not bending the story arc into a pretzle that is bending it into a origami dog. 

Modifié par jasonontko, 02 mars 2010 - 03:22 .

[MusicToEat]

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

MusicToEat wrote...

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

2. The end of ME2 shows that TIM was only intrested in gathering Collector/Reaper technology for human dominance. TIM puts up a front so he can keep Shepard an ally. If TIM was telling Shepard that the only reason he is confronting the Collectors for Cerberus dominance from the get go, I hardly think Shepard would want to work for him.

Since I chose Sole Survivor as my past in ME1 and in ME1 I find out that Cerberus is responsible fore Akuze and I also find out that I wasn't the sole survior, but that Cerberus experimented/killed the other surviors, I hardly think Shep would have wanted to worked with him from the begining.  Not even as a thank you for raising him from the dead.

Shepard doesn't have the resource to confront the Collector threat on his own. Cerberus is the only party backing Shepard up. I don't think Shepard is going to hold a grudge especially seeing how human lives are on the line.

To the point he wouldn't even mention it to them?

You'd think that the continuation of ME1's story would have been, Humanity having proved themselves in the eyes of the other alien races, everyone would have joined up to defeat a common enemy.  Instead we get a council that once again isn't convinced of the reaper threat.  Even though they had one die right in the middle of their United Nations.   The other races still resenting humanity.  Even though we saved their asses at considerable cost in human lives.  Not even the Alliance want to have anything to do with us. 

This is all subjective of course, but so much of ME2's story didn't make sense to me that it was kind of a disapointment.  It was like ME1 didn't even happen at all.  The council living or dying has zero effect on the story other then some minor flavor text.

[reepneep]

ZennExile wrote...

reepneep wrote...
You really don't have a civil bone in your body, do you?  I normally don't respond to your type but I think this point might need clarification.   Note that I didn't say well integrated, I said more integrated.  As in theres a plot related rather than just game mechanics reason to do them.  Whether the plot thread relates to 'teh reaperz' (like that is the only thing that matters and therefore the only thing the player could possibly be interested in <_<)isn't really the point, the fact that you're tying up these loose ends so your crew can more fully devote themselves to the mission is.  You can also say 'we don't have time' and jet right through the game. 

Is that line of reasoning kinda flimsy?  Yeah it is.  I challenge you to give me a better rationale for doing the sidequests in ME1.  Like I said, more integrated, not well integrated..

You want to complain about ineffective storytelling?  Complain about the horribly videogamey endgame sequence.

Civility is overrated.  It's like Poitics and Religion.  Just another way to exact control.  However, if we start this kind of debate we'll likely get noticed by the big mean moderators so maybe not the place for this...

However, your challenge doesn't seem all that complicated.  The sidequests in ME1 weren't required to be successful.  You had the choice to find them and the choice to complete them.  The easiest rational would simply be to explore and uncover the mysteries of the galaxy.

In ME2 the "crewquests" aren't sidequests at all.  They are forced advancment quests.  Sure you can skip them but if you do you are garunteed to fail the final mission.  So technically they take the place of an actual plot.  They give you the illusion of being optional.  But they really aren't.

Yeah the ending sequence really coulda been a bit more cinematic, that's for sure, but I do like how Bioware uses the engine to create more "true to gamespace" cinematics.  It may not be as pretty but the armor weapon and character appearance are accurate and I think that amount of immersion helps keep the player in the game through the cinematics rather than taking them out of the game to watch a little movie.

So you're saying you're an internet anarchist who expresses his freedom by acting like an arrogant, condecending thirteen year old with Asperger's syndrome?  Been there, seen that, got the scars.  Civility is about controlling oneself, not others.  It also has the helpful side effects of making you much more pleasant to be around and looking better in an argument.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.  Doing the character sidequests in ME2 actually has a plot related rationale behind them:  you're showing your flunkies that you will sacrifice for them, that you've got their back, that you won't abandon them when they need you.  Thats the point: This is a logical (though arguably superfluous) part of preparing for the endgame from not just an out-of-character game mechanics but an in-character perspective. ME1 sidequests have no comparable rationale.  You are literally ignoring the main narrative thread of the game if you spend time doing them.  Your response is, in a nutshell, 'for the thrill of discovery' which is all well and good, but it's not a valid answer to my question as its doesn't address the issue of 'why am I rescuing kittens from trees instead of chasing after the big bad'?  Hell, it's totally unrelated to the plot.

They are and they aren't.  You can't fail the mission (Stop the Collectors) without getting a game over and being booted back to the load screen.  You can't even complete the mission and die in the process unless you intentionally do everything wrong: no loyalty missions, no ship upgrades, purposefully select the wrong people for all the jobs.  You are not even remotely forced to do them.  The only way you could consider this to be the case is if you insist on everyone living through the ordeal, and even then you can get away with doing less than half of them. They are totally optional.

I wasn't speaking of the in-engine cutscenes.  I actually much prefer it when cinematics are rendered with the game engine or at the very least in game assets rather than being, say, SquareEnix-type CGI.  It makes the transistions from gameplay to movie time much less jarring and doesn't take your mind out of the game as much as the latter.  I though they did a fine job with those.  I was speaking of the suicide mission itself and it's ridiculous metagame and consequent total lack of emotional impact.

Modifié par reepneep, 02 mars 2010 - 03:36 .

[kregano]

jasonontko wrote...

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

MusicToEat wrote...

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

2. The end of ME2 shows that TIM was only intrested in gathering Collector/Reaper technology for human dominance. TIM puts up a front so he can keep Shepard an ally. If TIM was telling Shepard that the only reason he is confronting the Collectors for Cerberus dominance from the get go, I hardly think Shepard would want to work for him.

Since I chose Sole Survivor as my past in ME1 and in ME1 I find out that Cerberus is responsible fore Akuze and I also find out that I wasn't the sole survior, but that Cerberus experimented/killed the other surviors, I hardly think Shep would have wanted to worked with him from the begining.  Not even as a thank you for raising him from the dead.

Shepard doesn't have the resource to confront the Collector threat on his own. Cerberus is the only party backing Shepard up. I don't think Shepard is going to hold a grudge especially seeing how human lives are on the line.

Yes and you dont think that is contrived?  Pretty amazing to me that neither the Alliance nor the Council are willing to help Shep after what he has done.  That is not bending the story arc into a pretzle that is bending it into a origami dog. 

So you wouldn't be at all suspicious when someone who's been dead/off the gird for two years suddenly shows up working for/with a known enemy of the state? Keep in mind the Alliance and Council don't get to see everyrhing we do, so as far as they know, Cerberus has either brainwashed Shepard, turned him/her against them, is screwing with his/her head, or Shepard is actually on the ball about the problem.

MusicToEat wrote...
You'd think that the continuation of ME1's story would have been, Humanity having proved themselves in the eyes of
the other alien races, everyone would have joined up to defeat a common enemy.  Instead we get a council that once again isn't convinced of the reaper threat.  Even though they had one die right in the middle of their United Nations.   The other races still resenting humanity.  Even though we saved their asses at considerable cost in human lives.  Not
even the Alliance want to have anything to do with us. 

This is all subjective of course, but so much of ME2's story didn't make sense to me that it was kind of a disapointment.  It was like ME1 didn't even happen at all.  The council living or dying has zero effect on the story
other then some minor flavor text.

Why would everyone suddenly accept humanity just because they saved the Council and team up to beat the Reapers? Having such a massive shift of opinion would make even less sense than the aliens maintaining/increasing their prejudice against humans and since the Reapers aren't an immediate threat after the Battle of the Citadel, there's no reason to team up. And keep in mind that a lot of Sovereign vaporized when it died, and was left got scattered all over the Citadel. All that was left was stuff the Council races could've built if they had only thought of it, like the Thanix cannon. Admittedly, there's the issue of Sovereign ploughing through a turian frigate/cruiser (I think they use the same model for both), but that could be rationalized away by saying the Geth figured out how to make hull material strong enough to do that.

Modifié par kregano, 02 mars 2010 - 03:43 .

[Kileyan]

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

MusicToEat wrote...

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

2. The end of ME2 shows that TIM was only intrested in gathering Collector/Reaper technology for human dominance. TIM puts up a front so he can keep Shepard an ally. If TIM was telling Shepard that the only reason he is confronting the Collectors for Cerberus dominance from the get go, I hardly think Shepard would want to work for him.

Since I chose Sole Survivor as my past in ME1 and in ME1 I find out that Cerberus is responsible fore Akuze and I also find out that I wasn't the sole survior, but that Cerberus experimented/killed the other surviors, I hardly think Shep would have wanted to worked with him from the begining.  Not even as a thank you for raising him from the dead.

Shepard doesn't have the resource to confront the Collector threat on his own. Cerberus is the only party backing Shepard up. I don't think Shepard is going to hold a grudge especially seeing how human lives are on the line.

We really do understand that as the game stands, it was the only way Shep could continue his fight. I am not arguing that point, I"m only arguing it was necessary because it was written that way. Why bother to even write it in, in the first place. Why kill Shepard, blow up the ship, alienate him from the entire first game except for a few characters. Why push him to this terrible group of people who in the first game were only known for setting up and killing human soldiers for propaganda and shadowy motives. Was it really necessary? In game it served no point but to set up the fact  that the game was dark and edgy.

After that, they did nothing with it. Never was I put in the position by Cerebus to do terrible things for them. Quite the opposite, I really was never part of Cerebus, which seemed like the entire reason of them killing me, my ship and reviving me. From the get go, I was free to scream to the high heaven at every dialog choice to say I wasn't working for them, I hated them, and was only using them. It was never a part of the game, other than Illusive Man giving me info, which could have been woven into a much better shadowy plot of him being my unknown benefactor of information that was trying to direct my decisions(much more fitting for him IMHO).

The whole series reset was wasted by the main plot device of joining Cerebus really not meaning anything other than the final ending choice of blow up the base or not which means nothing to us in this self contained game, and may not mean anything 2+ years from now when we finally get an ending.

Short version, a lot of resetting of the game was done to make me join Cerebus, then it fell flat, I never felt it meant anything.

Modifié par Kileyan, 02 mars 2010 - 03:52 .

[jasonontko]

kregano wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

MusicToEat wrote...

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

2. The end of ME2 shows that TIM was only intrested in gathering Collector/Reaper technology for human dominance. TIM puts up a front so he can keep Shepard an ally. If TIM was telling Shepard that the only reason he is confronting the Collectors for Cerberus dominance from the get go, I hardly think Shepard would want to work for him.

Since I chose Sole Survivor as my past in ME1 and in ME1 I find out that Cerberus is responsible fore Akuze and I also find out that I wasn't the sole survior, but that Cerberus experimented/killed the other surviors, I hardly think Shep would have wanted to worked with him from the begining.  Not even as a thank you for raising him from the dead.

Shepard doesn't have the resource to confront the Collector threat on his own. Cerberus is the only party backing Shepard up. I don't think Shepard is going to hold a grudge especially seeing how human lives are on the line.

Yes and you dont think that is contrived?  Pretty amazing to me that neither the Alliance nor the Council are willing to help Shep after what he has done.  That is not bending the story arc into a pretzle that is bending it into a origami dog. 

So you wouldn't be at all suspicious when someone who's been dead/off the gird for two years suddenly shows up working for/with a known enemy of the state? Keep in mind the Alliance and Council don't get to see everyrhing we do, so as far as they know, Cerberus has either brainwashed Shepard, turned him/her against them, is screwing with his/her head, or Shepard is actually on the ball about the problem.

MusicToEat wrote...
You'd think that the continuation of ME1's story would have been, Humanity having proved themselves in the eyes of
the other alien races, everyone would have joined up to defeat a common enemy.  Instead we get a council that once again isn't convinced of the reaper threat.  Even though they had one die right in the middle of their United Nations.   The other races still resenting humanity.  Even though we saved their asses at considerable cost in human lives.  Not
even the Alliance want to have anything to do with us. 

This is all subjective of course, but so much of ME2's story didn't make sense to me that it was kind of a disapointment.  It was like ME1 didn't even happen at all.  The council living or dying has zero effect on the story
other then some minor flavor text.

Why would everyone suddenly accept humanity just because they saved the Council and team up to beat the Reapers? Having such a massive shift of opinion would make even less sense than the aliens maintaining/increasing their prejudice against humans and since the Reapers aren't an immediate threat after the Battle of the Citadel, there's no reason to team up. And keep in mind that a lot of Sovereign vaporized when it died, and was left got scattered all over the Citadel. All that was left was stuff the Council races could've built if they had only thought of it, like the Thanix cannon. Admittedly, there's the issue of Sovereign ploughing through a turian frigate/cruiser (I think they use the same model for both), but that could be rationalized away by saying the Geth figured out how to make hull material strong enough to do that.

To you first point.  Having to kill off Shep and bring him back from the dead to make this probable does literal and figurative violence to the story.  Even then its hard for me to see the Council and Alliance not helping Shep or at least looking into what he has to say.

To your second point watch the council again and tell me that council does not accept humans or acknowledge the reapers.

Modifié par jasonontko, 02 mars 2010 - 03:56 .

[jasonontko]

Kileyan wrote...

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

MusicToEat wrote...

ReTrAcK08 wrote...

2. The end of ME2 shows that TIM was only intrested in gathering Collector/Reaper technology for human dominance. TIM puts up a front so he can keep Shepard an ally. If TIM was telling Shepard that the only reason he is confronting the Collectors for Cerberus dominance from the get go, I hardly think Shepard would want to work for him.

Since I chose Sole Survivor as my past in ME1 and in ME1 I find out that Cerberus is responsible fore Akuze and I also find out that I wasn't the sole survior, but that Cerberus experimented/killed the other surviors, I hardly think Shep would have wanted to worked with him from the begining.  Not even as a thank you for raising him from the dead.

Shepard doesn't have the resource to confront the Collector threat on his own. Cerberus is the only party backing Shepard up. I don't think Shepard is going to hold a grudge especially seeing how human lives are on the line.

We really do understand that as the game stands, it was the only way Shep could continue his fight. I am not arguing that point, I"m only arguing it was necessary because it was written that way. Why bother to even write it in, in the first place. Why kill Shepard, blow up the ship, alienate him from the entire first game except for a few characters. Why push him to this terrible group of people who in the first game were only known for setting up and killing human soldiers for propaganda and shadowy motives. Was it really necessary? In game it served no point but to set up the fact  that the game was dark and edgy.

After that, they did nothing with it. Never was I put in the position by Cerebus to do terrible things for them. Quite the opposite, I really was never part of Cerebus, which seemed like the entire reason of them killing me, my ship and reviving me. From the get go, I was free to scream to the high heaven at every dialog choice to say I wasn't working for them, I hated them, and was only using them. It was never a part of the game, other than Illusive Man giving me info, which could have been woven into a much better shadowy plot of him being my unknown benefactor of information that was trying to direct my decisions(much more fitting for him IMHO).

The whole series reset was wasted by the main plot device of joining Cerebus really not meaning anything other than the final ending choice of blow up the base or not which means nothing to us in this self contained game, and may not mean anything 2+ years from now when we finally get an ending.

Short version, a lot of resetting of the game was done to make me join Cerebus, then it fell flat, I never felt it meant anything.

Pithy and smart.  Total win.