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Why is there nothing Hidden in ME2?


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#101
SurfaceBeneath

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BobbyTheI wrote...

Here's my last word, and then I'm done.

I don't usually start threads trying to argue something.  It's just not really my thing.  But if I were to do something like that, my inherent goal in doing that would be one thing:  to have somebody convince me that I'm wrong.  I'm looking for people to present good arguments and refute them if they don't make sense, and concede if they do.

ZennExile does not do this.

There are a lot of people on this forum that have the same opinion as him.  There are a lot of people who don't like ME2, who wish it was more like ME1, who wish it had the deep RPG elements they wanted.  I have no problem with them.  That's their opinion; it's not the same as mine, no biggie.  

There are people who don't like the same characters I do.  Again, that's their right.  I have no problem with them, because that's their opinion.

The problem I have with ZE in particular is that not only is he utterly convinced his opinions are utterly right, not only does he absolutely refuse to concede even a single point to anyone who disagrees with him, but that he does so with an attitude that anyone who disagrees with him is not only wrong, but so utterly stupid and misinformed that they are worthy of nothing less than the lowest of scorn. 

And anyone who calls him out on this attitude, who dares to be annoyed that their difference of opinion makes them "speshul" (oh, the ripping wit) in his mind, is a troll.  I first witnessed this attitude on the Jack thread, where he came on to tell us all how stupid we are for liking Jack, and how he's smart enough to know she's a terrible character.

Never mind that this is all subjective opinion, and that we had the right to like a character if we wanted, even if he didn't.  We were all WRONG, and he was RIGHT.  And no matter how many times people tried to convince them of their opinion. there was no shift on his side. He was still completely right, they were wrong, and that was that.

And when I told the people in the thread to stop bothering, that nothing they said was going to change his opinion in the least, and insisted that people just ignore his posts, I became a troll, because I decided not to play his pointless game.  And then he went to the Thane thread and tried to stir things up there.

This is why I try to tell you people not to bother.  A real argument requires two people who are willing to admit that their opponent has a good point when they do.  ZE will NEVER do this.  NEVER NEVER NEVER.  If you can find me one post, one SINGLE post on this board where ZE has said anything to the effect of "I was wrong," I will give you a shiny trophy, because I'm firmly convinced it doesn't exist.  You would get more mileage picking a random wall in your house and trying to have an argument with it.  You will argue in circles for days, and when people give up and the thread falls out of the top pages, well, he'll just start a new argument, and go through the exact same procedure.

Argue with anybody else around here, and you at least have the hope that maybe they'll take your points into account, that maybe they'll listen to what you're saying and change their opinion.  That maybe, once in a blue moon, they might concede they were wrong.

ZennExile does not do this.  And this is why I wish everybody would stop bothering.


This probably deserves its own thread that be stickied to the top of the forums.

#102
ZennExile

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USMCTanker wrote...

the cow level was never a secret, if you played in the old school days like I did, it was the only way to level up, and people knew about it as soon as the game was released... anyone who didnt immediately know about the cow level as soon as they started playing was either stupid or just didnt pay attention


What about the millions of players that aren't rabid fanbois?

Oh and

http://www.d2tomb.com/quests.shtml

I don't mean to brag here but I know games.  AND my Google Fu is strong.  Maybe take this into consideration before another responce?

#103
Cancermeat

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Even though i disagree with what people say in these forums from time to time. there's no excuse not to show them respect

#104
ZennExile

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Cancermeat wrote...

Even though i disagree with what people say in these forums from time to time. there's no excuse not to show them respect


I believe there are at least 3 posters in this thread who disagree with you completely.

#105
Cancermeat

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Well I hope you are not one of them.

#106
didymos1120

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ZennExile wrote...

But there were hidden planets and ateroids and the levels weren't linear so simply putting a room past the objective of the level could be considered "hidden".  The idea behind hidden content in a game is that even with effort things
can be overlooked.


Planets and asteroids?  What is it with you and declaring stuff that's in plain sight hidden?  Pick a star system, fly to it...

...OH MY GOD LOOK AT ALL THESE HIDDEN PLANETS! 

Face it: ME1 didn't have any hidden content to speak of, and you can overlook stuff in ME2 just as easily.  You could finish the game and, I'm pretty sure, only learn about one N7 mission (depending on whether you overlooked some other easily overlookable things): the one TIM gives you to find the captured Cerberus operative, the purpose of which is basically just a hint to go looking for more.  I mean, fine: you don't think ME2 measures up on this particular count, but don't pretend ME1 was somehow vastly superior.  Marginally so, at best.

#107
ZennExile

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didymos1120 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

But there were hidden planets and ateroids and the levels weren't linear so simply putting a room past the objective of the level could be considered "hidden".  The idea behind hidden content in a game is that even with effort things
can be overlooked.


Planets and asteroids?  What is it with you and declaring stuff that's in plain sight hidden?  Pick a star system, fly to it...

...OH MY GOD LOOK AT ALL THESE HIDDEN PLANETS! 

Face it: ME1 didn't have any hidden content to speak of, and you can overlook stuff in ME2 just as easily.  You could finish the game and, I'm pretty sure, only learn about one N7 mission (depending on whether you overlooked some other easily overlookable things): the one TIM gives you to find the captured Cerberus operative, the purpose of which is basically just a hint to go looking for more.  I mean, fine: you don't think ME2 measures up on this particular count, but don't pretend ME1 was somehow vastly superior.  Marginally so, at best.


Well considering ME1 had hidden rooms, hidden lewt, hidden planetary bodies, hidden codex entries, exploration, AND the levels weren't linear shooting galleries, wouldn't you have to say that ME1 is by far superior on all counts simply because it has all of these things and ME2 has none of them?

These things are all part of a larger concept.  Exploration and Discovery.  ME2 is literally on rails compared to pretty much every RPG ever made including ME1.  I don't think marginally says enough in this regard.

#108
ccconda

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Someone just said that there are no hidden items in Diablo2. Meaning no items that you have to hunt for that you can't buy in shops or get as quest rewards.

What a fail comment. Diablo as a series is ABOUT getting hidden stuff and saying "hey look I got this super hard to find stuff! Look at me rip things apart with it, this is awesome! Who wants it for 5 sojs?"

#109
didymos1120

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ZennExile wrote...

Well considering ME1 had hidden rooms, hidden lewt, hidden planetary bodies, hidden codex entries, exploration, AND the levels weren't linear shooting galleries, wouldn't you have to say that ME1 is by far superior on all counts simply because it has all of these things and ME2 has none of them?

These things are all part of a larger concept.  Exploration and Discovery.  ME2 is literally on rails compared to pretty much every RPG ever made including ME1.  I don't think marginally says enough in this regard.


Yeah, I addressed all this already.  Here, allow me to repost:

didymos1120 wrote...

Crates that weren't at all hidden.  And were yet more tedious "Simon" sequences most of the time.  For the codex stuff, you didn't "find" anything.  It just updated by virtue of you being there.  Tricky, that. The vast majority of it was found by way of  conversation, or clicking stuff in plain sight: also not hidden. 

You can still explore maps in ME2.  You just don't drive to them now over mostly bland and/or annoying terrain sprinkled with mildly interesting mini-game triggers (and it was always the SAME mini-game for everything). Admittedly, some UNC worlds set a nice mood, but those were pretty few and there was still hardly anything of note on those.

You can still open crates and wall safes and hack stuff.  They just tend to have metals and med-kits now or credits, instead of crap you almost certainly don't want and is destined to be omni-gel or sold for...credits. 

Also, ME1 was just as much a bunch of shooting galleries, and far less unique at that when it came to all the nigh-identical UNC buildings/abandoned mines/freighters.  The plot worlds were rather linear too.  Sure they gave you some side stuff on two worlds, but it wasn't much different than the optional stuff on Omega, the Citadel, or Ilium.  They've simply separated the truly plot-progressing stuff into self-contained mini-worlds.  But Therum, Virmire, Ilos, and the final Citadel level were pure "Start at A, go to B, shoot crap along the way"

ETA:  Oh, and so was the Eden Prime prologue.


Well, except maybe the "hidden rooms" thing.  I have no clue what the hell you're talking about.  Seriously: what hidden rooms?  I remember plenty of rooms.  Too many that were too similar really.  But hidden?  "Optional" maybe, in that you didn't have to go in there, but yet again they were all in plain sight, or there was a big signpost like a staircase saying "Follow me to find a room."  Unless you mean those very few unmarked shacks on UNC worlds.  Yeah those were great: all identical, tiny, and either totally empty or with a medkit and a crate or two.

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 mars 2010 - 09:12 .


#110
Onyx Jaguar

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So you want ME to be like FF7. That explains everything

#111
ZennExile

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@ccconda

Yeah I'm not sure if it was a troll or not. Sure seemed trollish but ya never know. Some people are natuarlly inclined to say stupid things without thinking. Mostly when they are between the ages of 4 and 22... but sometimes forever.

Modifié par ZennExile, 01 mars 2010 - 09:17 .


#112
ZennExile

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didymos1120 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Well considering ME1 had hidden rooms, hidden lewt, hidden planetary bodies, hidden codex entries, exploration, AND the levels weren't linear shooting galleries, wouldn't you have to say that ME1 is by far superior on all counts simply because it has all of these things and ME2 has none of them?

These things are all part of a larger concept.  Exploration and Discovery.  ME2 is literally on rails compared to pretty much every RPG ever made including ME1.  I don't think marginally says enough in this regard.


Yeah, I addressed all this already.  Here, allow me to repost:

didymos1120 wrote...
Crates that weren't at all hidden.  And were yet more tedious "Simon" sequences most of the time.  For the codex stuff, you didn't "find" anything.  It just updated by virtue of you being there.  Tricky, that. The vast majority of it was found by way of  conversation, or clicking stuff in plain sight: also not hidden. 

You can still explore maps in ME2.  You just don't drive to them now over mostly bland and/or annoying terrain sprinkled with mildly interesting mini-game triggers (and it was always the SAME mini-game for everything). Admittedly, some UNC worlds set a nice mood, but those were pretty few and there was still hardly anything of note on those.

You can still open crates and wall safes and hack stuff.  They just tend to have metals and med-kits now or credits, instead of crap you almost certainly don't want and is destined to be omni-gel or sold for...credits. 

Also, ME1 was just as much a bunch of shooting galleries, and far less unique at that when it came to all the nigh-identical UNC buildings/abandoned mines/freighters.  The plot worlds were rather linear too.  Sure they gave you some side stuff on two worlds, but it wasn't much different than the optional stuff on Omega, the Citadel, or Ilium.  They've simply separated the truly plot-progressing stuff into self-contained mini-worlds.  But Therum, Virmire, Ilos, and the final Citadel level were pure "Start at A, go to B, shoot crap along the way"

ETA:  Oh, and so was the Eden Prime prologue.


Well, except maybe the "hidden rooms" thing.  I have no clue what the hell you're talking about.  Seriously: what hidden rooms?  I remember plenty of rooms.  Too many that were too similar really.  But hidden?  "Optional" maybe, in that you didn't have to go in there, but yet again they were all in plain sight, or there was a big signpost like a staircase saying "Follow me to find a room."  Unless you mean those very few unmarked shacks on UNC worlds.  Yeah those were great: all identical, tiny, and either totally empty or with a medkit and a crate or two.


Well "hidden" was maybe too strong a word for hardcore gamers.  They were just rooms that were past your objective for the most part.  Like when you went in to a base and killed the commander on the main level, many times if you go past the commander you'd find a doorway hidden from view by a stack of crates.  And remember the hidden area in that crate maze level...  I can't remember the name of that place.  I just remember all the walls of crates and the mechs that just show up around corners.  There is even a tribute level to that level in ME2 but without the secret area ...

#113
ZennExile

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Onyx Jaguar wrote...

So you want ME to be like FF7. That explains everything


Yes because it would suck if ME2 was considered the greatest RPG of all time...  Although no one said anything about ME2 being like FF7.  That is your own conclusion.  Image IPB

#114
USMCTanker

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ccconda wrote...

Someone just said that there are no hidden items in Diablo2. Meaning no items that you have to hunt for that you can't buy in shops or get as quest rewards.
What a fail comment. Diablo as a series is ABOUT getting hidden stuff and saying "hey look I got this super hard to find stuff! Look at me rip things apart with it, this is awesome! Who wants it for 5 sojs?"


I hate to turn this into an arguement over diablo 2, but you can hardly call rare items "hidden". you dont have to go looking for them, if you kill the same boss enough times it will eventually drop.

but back to ME2, its impossible to make a game that appeals to everyone. One of my main complaints about 1 was so much freaking time wasted driving around in that stupid mako or running around the citadel, but some people really enjoyed that. if im on a particular mission and i know what i have to do, why would i want to spend 20 minutes walking/driving from one place to another. For me that really killed the flow of ME1, and I think ME2 has a lot better pace to it.

developers will never satisfy everyone, so they have to choose what to leave in the game and what to take out, and why. If there is an opportunity to attract more people to a game, then they are going to do it, cuz that means more money in their pockets, plain and simple. There are things i like about ME2, and there are things i dont like, but there is nothing i can do about it, so there is no point in crying about it. whats done is done, so if you dont like the game, dont play it.

#115
Onyx Jaguar

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After playing the Diablo games, PSO/PSU and KOF: COD I wouldn't call rare drops hidden either, but I would definately call the Cow Level hidden becaues the vast majority of people who would have played the game (and indeed most who probably did) would have never found it, or would never have found it without a guide.

#116
superimposed

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Look at the worms come out of the woodwork.

He's an **** because he has issues with the game? Damn, get your priorities right.

#117
Onyx Jaguar

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superimposed wrote...

Look at the worms come out of the woodwork.
He's an **** because he has issues with the game? Damn, get your priorities right.


You should read more threads

#118
ZennExile

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USMCTanker wrote...

ccconda wrote...

Someone just said that there are no hidden items in Diablo2. Meaning no items that you have to hunt for that you can't buy in shops or get as quest rewards.
What a fail comment. Diablo as a series is ABOUT getting hidden stuff and saying "hey look I got this super hard to find stuff! Look at me rip things apart with it, this is awesome! Who wants it for 5 sojs?"


I hate to turn this into an arguement over diablo 2, but you can hardly call rare items "hidden". you dont have to go looking for them, if you kill the same boss enough times it will eventually drop.

but back to ME2, its impossible to make a game that appeals to everyone. One of my main complaints about 1 was so much freaking time wasted driving around in that stupid mako or running around the citadel, but some people really enjoyed that. if im on a particular mission and i know what i have to do, why would i want to spend 20 minutes walking/driving from one place to another. For me that really killed the flow of ME1, and I think ME2 has a lot better pace to it.

developers will never satisfy everyone, so they have to choose what to leave in the game and what to take out, and why. If there is an opportunity to attract more people to a game, then they are going to do it, cuz that means more money in their pockets, plain and simple. There are things i like about ME2, and there are things i dont like, but there is nothing i can do about it, so there is no point in crying about it. whats done is done, so if you dont like the game, dont play it.


You have a good point but you seem to be ignoring one key detail.  "You can't appeal to everyone" is why we have different genre's.  RPG Shooter RTS FPS etc...  ME2 is the sequel to a very successful "RPG" with shooter influenced combat.  ME2 itself is a Cover Shooter with almost no RPG elements to speak of.

There were hundreds of thousands of gamers that bought ME2 sight unseen just because they loved ME1 so much.  What do you say to them?  What do you say to all the many thousands of people who bought ME2 expecting it to be the sequel to ME1?  What do you say to all the people who expected ME2 to be an RPG and realized only after spending 60$ that it's not really an RPG at all?

If you don't like the game don't play it?  Not everyone downloaded the illegal bootleg of the game ahead of time.  Hundreds of thousands of people were for lack of a better term "lied to" about ME2.  What do you say to them?

#119
Richard0600

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Marilynn-22 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

I'm not talkin about easter eggs here.  I'm talking about hidden star clusters, moons behind large planets, hidden items in crates, secret rooms or hidden pasages to "secret" areas.

Why is ME2 void of anything remotely resembling exploration and discovery?  Do the developers think the average gamer is too stupid to find hidden content?  Did someone at Bioware discover some market research that suggests all gamers hate finding secret stuff and must be handed every ounce of content on a silver rimmed platter garnished with "Yes we think yer stupid"-sauce?

RPGs typically offer something to explore, somthing to discover, and the option to choose your own path through the main story elements.   ME2 denies the player all of these things and no reason for this has ever been disclosed by any of the developers.

This seems like something that should have been explained in some manner.

Secondary solar systems are not mapped. We can explore the rest of the galaxy, Mr. Moreau, but you must help me.

Give me the ship.

Wow, just reading your post made me hear EDIs voice XD


Omg exactly what I was thinking..

#120
Souai

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Why would you quote the Bartle Test when talking about a single player game?

In response to your original post:

I'm not talkin about easter eggs here.  I'm talking about hidden star clusters, moons behind large planets, hidden items in crates, secret rooms or hidden pasages to "secret" areas.


What were you hoping to find, other than easter eggs, on such hidden content?  Would scattering the four star maps from the one shop to random locations on the four plot planets accomplish that?  Then the game would have six obvious side missions and four 'hidden' ones.  I don't really know what you're asking for when there were star clusters that had to be unlocked via missions or purchase, items liquidated to credits from a variety of things, and quite a few nearby but completely missable side cutscenes on a large amount of missions.

Why is ME2 void of anything remotely resembling exploration and discovery?  Do the developers think the average gamer is too stupid to find hidden content?  Did someone at Bioware discover some market research that suggests all gamers hate finding secret stuff and must be handed every ounce of content on a silver rimmed platter garnished with "Yes we think yer stupid"-sauce?

I strongly disagree that ME2 lacked exploration and discovery.  The entire first playthrough was an excellent new experience, and some of the classes (Vanguard, Infiltrator/Soldier/Sentinel, Adept, Engineer) play differently enough to discover new things while rolling through the same old paintball fields again.  The codex and daily Cerberus news entries are amazing for people who like to explore, and challenging yourself with conditional insanity playthroughs and figuring out the right shore parties appeals towards discovery eyed player.

I think the emphasis was on the experience that most players were going to get out of the game, and to be honest I can't remember Bioware modelling their games at all after the long standing trend of Asian RPGs having bonus dungeons and postgame content outside of the main plot.  The free hovertank DLC coming in March supposibly has at least five new missions to go with it, which seems like a nice new chunk of side missions.

RPGs typically offer something to explore, somthing to discover, and the option to choose your own path through the main story elements.   ME2 denies the player all of these things and no reason for this has ever been disclosed by any of the developers.

This seems like something that should have been explained in some manner.

What recent western role playing games have had what you seem to be asking for?  You haven't really provided any contrast to your "ME2 is missing a crucial game design element" argument.

#121
Mox Ruuga

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Hm...

Lots of "loyalists" whinging about Zenn.

I see people are still insecure about someone not loving the game as well as they do. Consensus minded drones that they are.

#122
Masterjokin

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i laughted so hard. "AND my Google Fu is strong." OMG. yes. your ability to search online and quote wikipedia makes you a valid and respectable journal of notable opinion.



sad to say man, but your pathetically nitpicking. "yes, the boat is the right size, and shape and the performance is good, but the grain is to small on the starboard deck, throw it all out, i shall have you fired."



and i think its funny you call people fanbois, cause your still posting, so you must be a rabid one too, that or your a gluten for punishment. your fighting a no win battle, your arguments have points that are only valid to you.



btw, don't quote me and respond, ill laugh so hard, i might fall out of my chair, and i dont wana get hurt.



i like the way me2 turned out, and i liked the mako, and the citadel and all that in me1. i was like WTF happened to it all. but i dont complain, i just played and learned all was right in my universe when i beat it i was happy with how i got to play it.



so, my grandma has some advice, stop picking at it, you'll get an infection.

cause thats what your doing... picking at it. for no reason at all,

#123
exxxed

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Most of the people complaining here must have not played Mass Effect 1 on the PC, the Mako handled great and it was a ton of fun to drive (the bland planets were the real culprit), aaannnd how can someone **** so much about extra content and exploration?

It's called exploration for a reason it's bloody optional and you can stick to your target range shootout galleries if you don't want any secret stuff by exploring a bit.



Someone mentioned that the devs must have cut out the exploration factor of the game due to making it more cinematic... HOW on earth does optional stuff be a fault in the cinematic factor, plus there's the damn scanning that comes to mind pretty which much destroys it right there.



Anyway it would be great if they will include with the Hammerhead DLC a new way to explore planets and more interesting side quests.



P.S. I loved the quasar game why on earth did they remove it!? Omega has every damn kind of illegal activities but gambling!?



Cheers!

#124
Richard0600

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ZennExile wrote...

USMCTanker wrote...

ccconda wrote...

Someone just said that there are no hidden items in Diablo2. Meaning no items that you have to hunt for that you can't buy in shops or get as quest rewards.
What a fail comment. Diablo as a series is ABOUT getting hidden stuff and saying "hey look I got this super hard to find stuff! Look at me rip things apart with it, this is awesome! Who wants it for 5 sojs?"


I hate to turn this into an arguement over diablo 2, but you can hardly call rare items "hidden". you dont have to go looking for them, if you kill the same boss enough times it will eventually drop.

but back to ME2, its impossible to make a game that appeals to everyone. One of my main complaints about 1 was so much freaking time wasted driving around in that stupid mako or running around the citadel, but some people really enjoyed that. if im on a particular mission and i know what i have to do, why would i want to spend 20 minutes walking/driving from one place to another. For me that really killed the flow of ME1, and I think ME2 has a lot better pace to it.

developers will never satisfy everyone, so they have to choose what to leave in the game and what to take out, and why. If there is an opportunity to attract more people to a game, then they are going to do it, cuz that means more money in their pockets, plain and simple. There are things i like about ME2, and there are things i dont like, but there is nothing i can do about it, so there is no point in crying about it. whats done is done, so if you dont like the game, dont play it.


You have a good point but you seem to be ignoring one key detail.  "You can't appeal to everyone" is why we have different genre's.  RPG Shooter RTS FPS etc...  ME2 is the sequel to a very successful "RPG" with shooter influenced combat.  ME2 itself is a Cover Shooter with almost no RPG elements to speak of.

There were hundreds of thousands of gamers that bought ME2 sight unseen just because they loved ME1 so much.  What do you say to them?  What do you say to all the many thousands of people who bought ME2 expecting it to be the sequel to ME1?  What do you say to all the people who expected ME2 to be an RPG and realized only after spending 60$ that it's not really an RPG at all?

If you don't like the game don't play it?  Not everyone downloaded the illegal bootleg of the game ahead of time.  Hundreds of thousands of people were for lack of a better term "lied to" about ME2.  What do you say to them?


ME2 was just not your typical cookie cutter RPG.

There wasn't a single moment in the game where I did not feel myself disconnected from the ME2 World, I enjoyed every second of it, I felt like I was shepard, I felt like I was making life changing decisions.

I've played dozens of RPG's in my time, where you spend hours running around collecting loot, farming exp. But in an essence those games lacked what this game had, an actual story plot that literally immersed you into the mass effect universe. I mean seriously on my first play through.. **** even my 3rd play through I was seriously pumped when it came to doing the final suicide mission...

What bioware did was simply remove some of the more mundane parts of RPG's and created something new & improved, and considering how seemlessly they merged ME1 and ME2 i give them serious props for that...

#125
USMCTanker

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ZennExile wrote...
You have a good point but you seem to be ignoring one key detail.  "You can't appeal to everyone" is why we have different genre's.  RPG Shooter RTS FPS etc...  ME2 is the sequel to a very successful "RPG" with shooter influenced combat.  ME2 itself is a Cover Shooter with almost no RPG elements to speak of.

There were hundreds of thousands of gamers that bought ME2 sight unseen just because they loved ME1 so much.  What do you say to them?  What do you say to all the many thousands of people who bought ME2 expecting it to be the sequel to ME1?  What do you say to all the people who expected ME2 to be an RPG and realized only after spending 60$ that it's not really an RPG at all?

If you don't like the game don't play it?  Not everyone downloaded the illegal bootleg of the game ahead of time.  Hundreds of thousands of people were for lack of a better term "lied to" about ME2.  What do you say to them?


I say everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if they really have that big of a problem with the game, then dont buy ME3. Its pretty much safe to say that everyone has spent money on something they ended up regreting buying, and if ME2 is one of those things then im sorry and that sucks, but lesson learned. Pretty much every review I read on ME2 told me that they had taken a lot of the RPG elements out of the game, but i was ok with that because it was mostly the epic storyline that drew me to the ME series. I know not everyone feels the same way, but again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.