64 réponses à ce sujet

[Grumpy33]

I was thinking of going dex 26 Cunning 30 Max Str, how does this compare to the standard max cunning and max dex builds?

[Timortis]

It's not good. You do the same damage as a dex Rogue, but you're much more fragile. Armor doesn't really matter, because with low defense, you get hit a lot more, and you'll almost always have debuffs on you that'll reduce your armor below that of a dex Rogue. At least cunning Rogues have good damage. There's hardly any point to a strength Rogue.

[Finnegone]

I disagree. A strength-focused DW rogue is an absolutely viable option. In fact, I prefer it to the cunning build, as it provides you a higher attack rating and the ability to equip some very good massive armor pieces- specifically the Boots of Diligence and Bergen's Honor. Coupled with the Felon's Coat, Andruil's Blessing, Key to the City, Lifegiver and the Rose's Thorn you can have a very respectable dex, great defense (in excess of 110, I believe) and armor (30), without excessive fatigue. And your strength should hit the mid 80's by the end game, so you'll dish out some serious damage.

[zaim298]

cunning=armor penetration, dexterity=defense/damage from penetration...

A rogue with Lethality talent will switch strength attribute with cunning attribute as the damage modifier. Spend only enough points on strength for equipping decent light-medium gears (ancient elven gears/wade drakeskin or dragonskin armor).

Nothing wrong with Finnegone suggestion, but it is not the optimum built if you want the best dps dual-wield rogue with the best defense.

Armor penetration ensures in negating opponents armor, hence 35-40 cunning will subtract armor defense in addition to dishing out 35-40 damage (if you taken Lethality)

This build ensures you dishing out 100+ damage. Not to mention talents from Duelist and Assassin specialization.

For the other stats (magic, willpower, constitution), there are plenty of accesory and gears that provides you with boost for these attributes. Although magic is definitely useless to improve on.

Modifié par zaim298, 01 mars 2010 - 10:07 .

[jsachun]

I always emphasize, you should spend some points on will as well. If you have shortcut keys set up & use attack talents instead of relying on DPS that won't hit on any High Level character because of their high defense rating, you really don't need your characters to be dishing out 100+ damage. Also if you have high cons, decent magic attributes also help, as your healing potions will regenerate more health.

Modifié par jsachun, 01 mars 2010 - 10:50 .

[Meliorist13]

OP:



This info is from Discobird's DW Rogue Damage writeup here: http://social.biowar...6/index/223777. Notice the attack and defense ratings at the bottom. Str Rogues are viable and will work. They are just not the min/max optimum build choice.



A: AXE/DAGGER STR



This rogue will have pre-gear stats of:



Str: 15 + 49 = 64

Dex: 21 + 9 = 30

Cun: 20 + 2 = 22



* Mainhand: Veshialle (9.6 base damage, 4.2 AP, +2 str, +10% crit damage, +2 nature damage)

* Offhand: Rose's Thorn (6.4 dam., 8 AP, +30% crit damage, +3 damage, +2 dex)

* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex +2 cun)

* Chest: Warden Commander Armor (+15% crit damage)

* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit. damage)

* Boots: nothing improves DPS

* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)

* Amulet: Heart of Witherfang (+1 str)

* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)

* Ring: Dawn Ring (+4 str, -1 cun)



Final stats including gear:

Str: 64 + 13 = 77

Dex: 30 + 8 = 38

Cun: 22 + 5 = 27



Unbuffed attack rating: 113.5 (55 base + 47.5 attribs + 6 combat training + 5 DW finesse)

Unbuffed defense rating: 101 (50 base + 18 leveling + 28 dex + 5 DW finesse)

[zaim298]

Why spend valuable points on magic, willpower and constitutions when you can easily get them from gears and accessory boost? you can easily get 100 stamina from just equipping the right accessories, and you'll get reduce stamina consumption from certain set of armors. Why the need from constitutions as well when you can spend valuable point on dexterity and become virtually untouchable. When attack doesn't hit often, you don't really need so much health. Since you're a rogue and a dps, you won't be getting too much aggro.



Most people underestimate dexterity and cunning. High dexterity means evade incoming blows, increase defense, increase piercing damage, increase melee damage. High cunning means higher armor penetration (which basically renders enemy defense and armor useless) couple that with Lethality you get enemies with virtually no armor and extra damage input.



Enemy defense = defense score + armor score... eliminating the armor score (with cunning) will leaves you with only their defense score to calculate your overall damage you do to them (attack score - defense score), with Lethality you get extra points on your attack score.



Healing? For Lesser Health Poultices you get (50+magic)*1



*2 for Health, *3 for Greater, *4 for Potent... so it doesn't really helps that much...plus, you can easily craft tons of poultices + healing spells.



Basically, you want a damage disher who is hard to hit and play dirty. A well-built dual-wield rogue (Assassin + Duelist) with certain sustainable talents + activated talents can easily dish out 300-400 damage and survives without the need for pots even with low health cap.



Don't water-down your characters unnecessarily. Take a look around for items that gives you certain boost that fits your character's needs.

[jsachun]

High defense meant nothing to me when 10 guys are hitting me at once. I'd prefer the armor & cons thanks.

[zaim298]

If you're a rogue, wearing light/medium armor, why would 10 guys would go for you? You don't make any sense at all. Rogue are not aggro-getter, they're backstabbers and dirty fighters.

the reason warriors don't need too high of dexterity is because they equip heavier armor (which gives higher armor bonus) and because heavier armor will get higher aggro from enemies (basically the main target), so that is why warriors are the best tanks. Added to that they do need higher constitutions compare to the other class for not able to evade often and because they're constantly getting swung at.

Rogues on the other hand, doesn't need high armor bonus (heavy armors) simply because their defense is already high and they enemies rarely land any hit at them. And since they wore light/medium armor, enemies wouldn't really focus fire (aggro) at the rogues.

So unless you're playing (not the build) your rogue wrong, I don't see why put points on strength just to equip heavier armor, and constitutions since you wouldn't be taking too much hit. Unless you love the look of heavy armor on your character while running around in the game.

Since it comes down to preferences, your build eventhough not optimum is actually a decent build and nothing wrong with it. But I played on Nightmare a couple of times now with a DW rogue, trying different build each time, I found it is the hardest to play with the build you mentioned compare to the breeze-thru playthroughs with the recommended build.

EDIT: oh btw to the OP, there is nothing wrong with str DW Rogue except they get hit often, on the brighter side you can equip heavier armor which reduce damage taken. But don't spend points on Magic, willpower is permissible, but Magic is completely useless for non-mage. Still I recommend get good items/accessories that boost your willpower and constitutions if you need them. And to be clear, nothing wrong with any of the suggested builds posted in this thread.

Modifié par zaim298, 01 mars 2010 - 11:30 .

[jsachun]

All my companions flopped.

Modifié par jsachun, 01 mars 2010 - 11:35 .

[zaim298]

jsachun wrote...

All my companions flopped.

What do you mean?

[Loc'n'lol]

jsachun wrote...

High defense meant nothing to me when 10 guys are hitting me at once. I'd prefer the armor & cons thanks.

Actually, they likely wouldn't even hit you if you had enough defense...

Besides, a rogue can just vanish when **** happens. *poof*

@OP, yes very viable. If you're neither a bard nor an assassin, you can pretty much skip cunning enitrely, besides the prerequisites for talents.

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 01 mars 2010 - 12:37 .

[soteria]

High defense meant nothing to me when 10 guys are hitting me at once. I'd prefer the armor & cons thanks.

High dexterity with base con will beat high con + anything any day of the week and twice on Monday. At 120 defense most normal enemies will miss you, and at 150 a lot of bosses will struggle to hit you. Both according to theory and in practice dexterity is a better survival stat than constitution, period.

[jsachun]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

jsachun wrote...

High defense meant nothing to me when 10 guys are hitting me at once. I'd prefer the armor & cons thanks.

Actually, they likely wouldn't even hit you if you had enough defense...

Only for normal melee attacks. When your opponents are all using Active Talents, It's always a hit whether you have high defense or not. Only thing that will save you is Armor rating & resistence. Only misqued active talent I've seen in the game is Critical hit from a Two hander, besides that they always hit regardless of your defense rating. Besides stealth is over rated unless your an archer with Arrow of Slaying Talent. No melee atack is going to do as much one hit damage as that anyway. And I hate how you have to crawl while your in the stealth mode. I think it's one of most usless talent except during the FADE as a mouse in the Circle of the Magi quest.  

Modifié par jsachun, 01 mars 2010 - 12:49 .

[soteria]

Only for normal melee attacks. When your opponents are all using Active Talents, It's always a hit whether you have high defense or not. Only thing that will save you is Armor rating & resistence. Only misqued active talent I've seen in the game is Critical hit from a Two hander, besides that they always hit regardless of your defense rating. Besides stealth is over rated unless your an archer with Arrow of Slaying Talent. No melee atack is going to do as much one hit damage as that anyway. And I hate how you have to crawl while your in the stealth mode. I think it's one of most usless talent except during the FADE as a mouse in the Circle of the Magi quest.

Maybe if you didn't think stealth was useless you'd realize you can use it to avoid most of the dangerous specials. Unfortunately, you'll have to eat those Deadly Strikes. As soon as an enemey attacks you in melee (set it in tactics if you want), stealth. They turn around and die in seconds from backstabs. You'd realize it's a great skill if you had taken the time to learn how to use it properly.

[jsachun]

Like I said, Armor, resistence & cons > than dex & cun in combat. It just proves the point that we won't be able to beat those bosses without healing poitions & healing spells.

Modifié par jsachun, 01 mars 2010 - 01:07 .

[Loc'n'lol]

He said it, so it must be the truth. Can't argue with that.

[sajahVarel]

if you get surrounded by ten guys with your rogue it means only 3 things :



1. you play alone, so you should use traps, poisons and stealth (with master stealth you can hide in combat and trap on someone's feet , then backstab when the group is stunned, and even finish with grenades, poisons are very useful too since they can be stacked on the weapon).



2. you're in party and your tank is drunk... (taunt is the warrior's best friend)



3. you're in party and your mage is drunk... (crowd control forever).

[soteria]

jsachun wrote...

Like I said, Armor, resistence & cons > than dex & cun in combat. It just proves the point that we won't be able to beat those bosses without healing poitions & healing spells.

Sorry, I'm having a hard time following how your saying it again proves that particular point.

I actually have a video up of killing Gaxxkang without potions or healing spells, and I've done the high dragon and flemeth without potions or healing as well.  Flame breath doesn't really do that much damage when you have high fire resist, and if you have 5 health regen/sec it's even easier.  And the best part is your rogue doesn't need the fire resist or the health regen--anyone can do it, letting your rogue focus on more important stats.

[Pubknight]

jsachun wrote...

Besides stealth is over rated unless your an archer with Arrow of Slaying Talent. No melee atack is going to do as much one hit damage as that anyway. And I hate how you have to crawl while your in the stealth mode. I think it's one of most usless talent except during the FADE as a mouse in the Circle of the Magi quest.  

If you think Stealth is overrated as a talent for a rogue, you are playing your rogue a bit differently.
From your posts in this thread, it sounds as though you are playing your rogue like a warrior/tank... which, while a viable way to play it (since there is no 'wrong' way), it really isn't as efficient or as impactful as it could be.
You need for Con is likely coming from this tank ish type approach.
Which begats its own problems... you pad up strength to wear heavier armour, and you automatically start drawing aggro right from the get-go of a fight.

Most people would find that stealthing away from trouble, and positioning for backstabs is where a non-archer rogue would get its best bang for the buck, in terms of effectiveness and damage.

Modifié par Pubknight, 01 mars 2010 - 04:21 .

[DJ0000]

jsachun wrote...

All my companions flopped.

If this is the case it means that you generally don't have any idea how to build properly.

Playing a str rogue is basically playing a warrior without any of the useful warrior talents. When you wear massive armour enemies are bound to attack you.

I found that having a 'reduces hostility' item worked wonders. It is one of the enchantments that has an incredible effect as even if you run at the front of the pack, unstealthed, enemies will simply run past you. Taunt and threaten for your warriors helps even more.

Also, a well built cunning rogue easily perform more damage than a str rogue for the simple reason that you can get rogue talents that add bonuses based on cunning and cunning offers better backstabs and armour penetration anyway.

Also, with coupe de grace, you should be stunning, paralysing or freexing enemies constantly making it impossible for them to attack, let anlone actually hit you.

Even when they do attack, high defence and evasion will stop you taking too much damage. I remember when was fighting Ser Cauthrien solo  in Howe's estate because the rest of my party was downed by the archers, she was swinging 10 times and still  not hitting me. It was similar with the revenants, even with their debuffs. Hell, even Flemeth and the High Dragon had problems hitting me.

[TBastian]

Rogues are simply not built to work the same as warriors, so they are not as strength-dependent.
Some points in Willpower is always useful, it's not like you're gonna be wearing many items with +stamina if you want your rogue to have the best gear. You only need enough so you can basically use at least one skill whenever you need to though, all other points should be in dexterity and cunning.
As it is there are enough items to boost your constitution/magic (lots of light/medium gear have the +all attributes mod) without you having to actually sink points in them.

Modifié par TBastian, 01 mars 2010 - 07:18 .

[Random70]

jsachun wrote...

Like I said, Armor, resistence & cons > than dex & cun in combat. It just proves the point that we won't be able to beat those bosses without healing poitions & healing spells.

Wow. Just....wow.

[zaim298]

jsachun wrote...

Like I said, Armor, resistence & cons > than dex & cun in combat. It just proves the point that we won't be able to beat those bosses without healing poitions & healing spells.

you say this like it is a matter of fact! i just have to quote it... people solo in nightmare using a rogue with optimum dex n cunning build, none have ever solo using your build in nightmare...

i still don't get it, why pick a rogue at all if you're not going to use their special talents like stealth, coup de grace, assassin, duelist etc? that is the whole point of being rogue. and since so many of rogues talent gives bonus depending on dexterity and cunning, it means their whole build depend on those attributes. you seem to underestimate dexterity and cunning.

just imagine Ali and Frazier, oh yes Frazier can withstand lots of punishment but Ali just need to dodge. This is the main difference between warrior and rogue. And even if you're building a warrior, most people just put little points on constitutions and rather put points in dexterity since a warrior can wear heavy armor. you can get decent amount of health from accessories boost anyway if you really need them.

brute force vs finesse... we aren't saying your build is bad, it is just that why would you water-down a rogue that can potentially be an untouchable damage disher. if your preference is to be a character who head on charge the enemies and don't care about moving around and instead staying your ground and smash people, then nothing wrong with it.

it seems you're unable to grasp the mechanics, rogue wear light/medium armor for a reason. that is why best party composition always require a primary tank to aggro the enemy.

[TBastian]

Pointing to solos does not make it as effective in a party setting, especially since the guy only seems to play with a party.
Anyway just note that Dexterity/Cunning are the lifeblood of the rogue class regardless, just try it sometime and you might like the results.

Modifié par TBastian, 01 mars 2010 - 11:39 .