64 réponses à ce sujet

[Hahren]

jsachun wrote...

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

jsachun wrote...

High defense meant nothing to me when 10 guys are hitting me at once. I'd prefer the armor & cons thanks.

Actually, they likely wouldn't even hit you if you had enough defense...

Only for normal melee attacks. When your opponents are all using Active Talents, It's always a hit whether you have high defense or not. Only thing that will save you is Armor rating & resistence. Only misqued active talent I've seen in the game is Critical hit from a Two hander, besides that they always hit regardless of your defense rating. Besides stealth is over rated unless your an archer with Arrow of Slaying Talent. No melee atack is going to do as much one hit damage as that anyway. And I hate how you have to crawl while your in the stealth mode. I think it's one of most usless talent except during the FADE as a mouse in the Circle of the Magi quest.  

Huh? Forgive me. I play on the PS3, but what attacks are automatic hits? On my game many of them have a line of text that reads "if it connects". That wouldn't exist if they all hit automatically, but it could be a typo right?

I think that this idea of all active talents hitting is an exaggeration with a grain of truth buried in it. Probably the reason why it feels like so many bad guys are hitting you is high level enemy archers. Enemy archers absolutely love tossing around Crippling Shot, and Shattering Shot. When you have about 4+ in an encounter some of those are bound to land opening opportunties for other debuffs to connect like Below the Belt, or the Sunder Attacks. Not to mention that Hurlock emissaries are very fond of Miasma which lowers attack and defense in close range. While some of these effects don't stack on themselves. They do seem to stack with other talents. In large battles these debuffs can add up, and make them frustrating.

The AI, at least on my console, seems to have a set pattern. Attack with AoE CC first if possible. Attack with melee CC if possible. If target is CC'ed then skip to a debuff. Once debuffs are up launch a damage attack. Repeat if cooldowns allow.

Enemy archers... Scatter Shot. Then watch to see if you start getting hit with Crippling Shot, and Shattering Shot. Sometimes they hit. Sometimes they miss. If either do land it effects you with a debuff. Chances are you getting stunned, your attack/defense lowers, and/or armor dropped early in a fight.

Enemy rogues... A lot of the time they will throw out a Dirty Fighting. What's really interesting is that the AI seems to have an "if stunned move to next attack". The AI isn't stupid enough to attempt dirty fighting with 6 rogues at once. If one lands a stun the others will usually follow up with Below the Belt/Deadly Strike.

Those are just a couple examples. My point is that the enemy AI tends to use attack and defense debuff moves very early in combat. Then they will follow them up with a more damaging attack (even if that is Flurry). So you may have one enemy land a CC, and then the rest spend a few rounds cycling debuffs. It makes it seem as if subsequent attacks hit automatically.

I'll say again though... I play on the PS3. Perhaps on the PC all active attacks automatically hit.

[Random70]

Hahren wrote...

jsachun wrote...

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

jsachun wrote...

High defense meant nothing to me when 10 guys are hitting me at once. I'd prefer the armor & cons thanks.

Actually, they likely wouldn't even hit you if you had enough defense...

Only for normal melee attacks. When your opponents are all using Active Talents, It's always a hit whether you have high defense or not. Only thing that will save you is Armor rating & resistence. Only misqued active talent I've seen in the game is Critical hit from a Two hander, besides that they always hit regardless of your defense rating. Besides stealth is over rated unless your an archer with Arrow of Slaying Talent. No melee atack is going to do as much one hit damage as that anyway. And I hate how you have to crawl while your in the stealth mode. I think it's one of most usless talent except during the FADE as a mouse in the Circle of the Magi quest.  

Huh? Forgive me. I play on the PS3, but what attacks are automatic hits? On my game many of them have a line of text that reads "if it connects". That wouldn't exist if they all hit automatically, but it could be a typo right?

I think that this idea of all active talents hitting is an exaggeration with a grain of truth buried in it. Probably the reason why it feels like so many bad guys are hitting you is high level enemy archers. Enemy archers absolutely love tossing around Crippling Shot, and Shattering Shot. When you have about 4+ in an encounter some of those are bound to land opening opportunties for other debuffs to connect like Below the Belt, or the Sunder Attacks. Not to mention that Hurlock emissaries are very fond of Miasma which lowers attack and defense in close range. While some of these effects don't stack on themselves. They do seem to stack with other talents. In large battles these debuffs can add up, and make them frustrating.

The AI, at least on my console, seems to have a set pattern. Attack with AoE CC first if possible. Attack with melee CC if possible. If target is CC'ed then skip to a debuff. Once debuffs are up launch a damage attack. Repeat if cooldowns allow.

Enemy archers... Scatter Shot. Then watch to see if you start getting hit with Crippling Shot, and Shattering Shot. Sometimes they hit. Sometimes they miss. If either do land it effects you with a debuff. Chances are you getting stunned, your attack/defense lowers, and/or armor dropped early in a fight.

Enemy rogues... A lot of the time they will throw out a Dirty Fighting. What's really interesting is that the AI seems to have an "if stunned move to next attack". The AI isn't stupid enough to attempt dirty fighting with 6 rogues at once. If one lands a stun the others will usually follow up with Below the Belt/Deadly Strike.

Those are just a couple examples. My point is that the enemy AI tends to use attack and defense debuff moves very early in combat. Then they will follow them up with a more damaging attack (even if that is Flurry). So you may have one enemy land a CC, and then the rest spend a few rounds cycling debuffs. It makes it seem as if subsequent attacks hit automatically.

I'll say again though... I play on the PS3. Perhaps on the PC all active attacks automatically hit.

As far as I know, the only weapon attacks that auto-hit...
1) Pommel Strike
2) Scattershot
3) Shield Pummel (stun will attempt to apply even if the attack part misses)

[Meliorist13]

To the OP:



I also wanted to add that if you want to try a Str-Rogue, your best bet is a Dwarven Noble.

[soteria]

A few dual wield talents auto-hit, too. Dual weapon sweep is one that comes to mind.

[Timortis]

I don't know, DW sweep is weird, sometimes it just seems to miss, and sometimes there'll be 3 guys in front of you, it'll hit the two on the sides but not the one right in front, though it can hit even with misdirection hex on. It never shows miss on the scrolling text though.

Modifié par Timortis, 02 mars 2010 - 02:34 .

[mosspit]

Timortis wrote...

I don't know, DW sweep is weird, sometimes it just seems to miss, and sometimes there'll be 3 guys in front of you, it'll hit the two on the sides but not the one right in front, though it can hit even with misdirection hex on. It never shows miss on the scrolling text though.

Hitting with even misdirection hex... might be possible if the hit was meant to critical. Similar to DW Sweep, 2H Sweep will also not show miss on the scrolling text but it can actually miss.

My personal favourite auto-hit talent - Dirty Fighting... No dmg but the stun is just SO reliable.

[soteria]

My theory for DW sweep is that the arc of enemies it hits overlaps for both weapons in the middle, and on the extreme edges only one weapon hits. I haven't really tested it, but I don't really remember a case of only seeing a single hit on someone right in front of me. Maybe it just didn't stick in my head.

[Timortis]

mosspit wrote...


Hitting with even misdirection hex... might be possible if the hit was meant to critical.

DW Sweep doesn't crit however, not even with pinpoint strike. Also, the hit chance with Misdirection on seems to be much higher than your crit chance. You can test this easier with a Warrior since Rogues tend to have higher crit chance.

[mosspit]

Interesting. More testing to be done!

[Random70]

Take a look at this link: www.dragonagenexus.com/downloads/readmes/Combat%20Tweaks%20v323_readme.txt

I don't use this mod myself but the readme has some info as to what's broken in the unmodded game. According to this readme DW Sweep is coded to be an auto-hit though in my experience it behaves much like Timortis described a couple of posts up.

The modder also states that the 'Miss!' floatie will only appear for normal attacks, never specials

[Gecon]

Str Rogue is this:

+ Much better attack rating (as atk is always 1/2 str + 1/2 dex)
+ More direct damage (i.e. dmg is 1x str, not 1/2 dex + 1/2 cun)
+ Can use any melee weapon, not just daggers, resulting in more damage

- Much less armor penetration
- Much worse Trickery skills
- Needs to take Feats the Cun Rogue can skip just to be still not as effective as a Rogue

All in all I prefer Cun Rogue. Of course you have a hard time hitting anything that has high Evasion. But against heavy armored foes you're much better off and you're good in AND outside of combat.

[Timortis]

Gecon wrote...

Str Rogue is this:


+ More direct damage (i.e. dmg is 1x str, not 1/2 dex + 1/2 cun)
+ Can use any melee weapon, not just daggers, resulting in more damage

Not really. Slow weapon speeds and the fact that your 40+ dex score with gear on doesn't contribute to damage calculations with large weapons, but does with daggers negates any advantage large weapons have in attribute bonuses and daggers end up pulling ahead.

Modifié par Timortis, 02 mars 2010 - 10:11 .

[Hahren]

Random70 wrote...
The modder also states that the 'Miss!' floatie will only appear for normal attacks, never specials

Nice to know! I know I have seen some specials complete animation, but do 0 damage. So armor is nice to have for those times you get hit by the auto landing specials, but defense is still relevant. I feel my portion of derailing the thread is complete!

[Finnegone]

Timortis wrote...

Gecon wrote...

Str Rogue is this:


+ More direct damage (i.e. dmg is 1x str, not 1/2 dex + 1/2 cun)
+ Can use any melee weapon, not just daggers, resulting in more damage

Not really. Slow weapon speeds and the fact that your 40+ dex score with gear on doesn't contribute to damage calculations with large weapons, but does with daggers negates any advantage large weapons have in attribute bonuses and daggers end up pulling ahead.

Dagger damage is 1/2 strength (or cunning), 1/2 dex - so your damage with them is, by design, an average of two attributes, whereas all other weapons are based solely on your strength (or cunning) score. A strength or cunning rogue wielding Veshialle in the main hand and the Rose's Thorn in the off-hand does more damage than a dex rogue dual wielding daggers, as the speed difference - while somewhat significant (1s for dual daggers, 1.2s for axe/sword and dagger) - is not enough to offset the lower damage potential on dual daggers.

See Discobird's excellent post and analysis on this subject for more details:  http://social.biowar...66/index/223777

In brief, the advantages of the various builds are:

1) Dexterity: very high attack and defense ratings; nigh unhittable. Reliably dishes out decent enough damage with daggers, but this build really shines on the defensive end of the spectrum - so much so that the game becomes somewhat boring at the end because most enemies stop being a threat (beware mages, though)

2) Strength: high attack rating, able to wield all weapons and use all armor. With backstabbing, this becomes a higher single-target DPSer than the Warrior, but lacks their staying power (less health) and some of their fun factor (less stamina, so fewer active abilities). All in all, solid main damage dealer with some nice utility

3) Cunning: highest damage potential, lowest attack rating and defense. This is very much the glass cannon build; it benefits from extreme damage potential (especially when paired with Assassin and Bard specs), but (in my experience) can be very frustrating to play, as in the beginning you're somewhat gimped until you get lethality, and at the end you really need to flank enemies all the time to ensure that you can reliably hit. With the right equipment (Felon's Coat and Rose's Thorn), and the right companions, though, this build becomes very powerful. 

Modifié par Finnegone, 02 mars 2010 - 04:55 .

[Timortis]

Finnegone wrote...

Dagger damage is 1/2 strength (or cunning), 1/2 dex - so your damage with them is, by design, an average of two attributes, whereas all other weapons are based solely on your strength (or cunning) score. A strength or cunning rogue wielding Veshialle in the main hand and the Rose's Thorn in the off-hand does more damage than a dex rogue dual wielding daggers, as the speed difference - while somewhat significant (1s for dual daggers, 1.2s for axe/sword and dagger) - is not enough to offset the lower damage potential on dual daggers.
 

You don't need to tell me all this. Discobird's calculations include DLC items like Warden's Commander chestpiece, without which the Str Rogue would fall behind. Even with it, it's only 2 dps ahead. They also assume the Dex Rogue will waste 5 points on Str, when he doesn't need to at all, and I'm not sure if they changed this later, but initially, I think the dex build didn't have Lethality, which if you take it, still adds some DPS since the dex Rogue's final cunning score will be higher than his str with gear etc. 

Not to mention, DB's calculations include Runes, but not poisons, which are applied faster with daggers.

Modifié par Timortis, 02 mars 2010 - 05:08 .

[beancounter501]

I never really reviewed discobirds dmg calculation, but glancing over it he did not calculate attribute damage from daggers correctly. If a weapon pulls damage from two attributes it takes the average value, not the sum of both stats. So a dex of 70 and cun/str of 30 the stat value is 40, not 80. One of the reasons why archery does not deal as much damage when compared to say a long sword. Even when the stats are a simplar value.  I guess I will have to take a better look at it once I get ready to play through a rogue.

Modifié par beancounter501, 03 mars 2010 - 12:25 .

[TBastian]

You might wanna actually test those builds out in practice first.

A lot of them assume that the rogue is standing still while flanking every enemy in the vicinity one at a time, who are all also basically doing nothing but standing still.

[Timortis]

beancounter501 wrote...

I never really reviewed discobirds dmg calculation, but glancing over it he did not calculate attribute damage from daggers correctly. If a weapon pulls damage from two attributes it takes the average value, not the sum of both stats. So a dex of 70 and cun/str of 30 the stat value is 40, not 80. One of the reasons why archery does not deal as much damage when compared to say a long sword. Even when the stats are a simplar value.  I guess I will have to take a better look at it once I get ready to play through a rogue.

The calculations do take that into account, you must have missed it.

[beancounter501]

OK, now that I had a chance to look at it in more detail I see how Disco accounted for the attribute split.



Still, the calculation is unrealistic. A lot is made out of the speed of daggers but post momentum a dual sword character will have an attack rate of .98 and a dual dagger will have an attack rate of .70. Not really a big deal. On paper the dual dagger is still faster, but it reality I would think positioning would be a big factor. Plus I really don't think the game engine is as accurate enough to account for a .28 second difference.



The big bonus for a dual sword strength rogue would be active abilities, the dex rogue would have a sky high defense and the cunning rogue would not have to waste talents/skills but at a cost of attack rating.



But from a DPS standpoint I bet they are a whole lot closer then that spreadsheet indicates.

[soteria]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't going from .98 to .7 a 40% increase in attack speed? Seems pretty significant to me. Additionally, I've used both dual swords and dual daggers, and the daggers feel significantly faster while dealing competitive damage per swing, so I'm pretty sure the engine does account for the .28s difference.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The speed advantage of daggers is huge.

Though, I wonder if anyone's bothered to work out whether using a dagger makes some active talents less effective, and by how much (since the active talents are always the same speed regardless of weapon). For example, the S&S talent Assault attacks 4 times in rapid succession - but it's really not that rapid compared to the normal dagger attack rate. For an axe or mace user it's a huge increase in DPS, but far less so for daggers.

[beancounter501]

soteria wrote...

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't going from .98 to .7 a 40% increase in attack speed? Seems pretty significant to me. Additionally, I've used both dual swords and dual daggers, and the daggers feel significantly faster while dealing competitive damage per swing, so I'm pretty sure the engine does account for the .28s difference.

Sure the .28 seconds is a 40% increase.  Simple math.  But from a gameplay standpoint I think it is much less important then people make it out to be.  If you kill someone in 4 seconds and it takes me 5 - big deal.  I have a hard time beliving a qrter of a second is that much better.  LOL, besides unless you sit right on top of your rogue and micro him every second you will end regular attacking a lot. 

I would not be suprised if there was some sort of floor on the attack animation speed. 

Don't get me wrong, I will probably end up playing a dual dagger dex rogue, but that is more for the defense / role playing then the DPS.

[beancounter501]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The speed advantage of daggers is huge.
Though, I wonder if anyone's bothered to work out whether using a dagger makes some active talents less effective, and by how much (since the active talents are always the same speed regardless of weapon). For example, the S&S talent Assault attacks 4 times in rapid succession - but it's really not that rapid compared to the normal dagger attack rate. For an axe or mace user it's a huge increase in DPS, but far less so for daggers.

Nah, usually for active abilities I would say a sword user would beat out a dagger.  Whirlwind against 4 targets results is 8 attacks in two seconds.  That is far more then a regular dagger attack could ever do.   Or at least in 8 seconds. 

Modifié par beancounter501, 05 mars 2010 - 03:25 .

[Timortis]

Sure specials are stronger with full size weapons but stamina is a problem for Rogues, because they don't have Deathblow. You just can't use specials as often as a Warrior. For example, with the crit rate an Assassin/Bard with Lethality can get with Veshialle+Rose's attacks like Flurry become really powerful, but you can only use it once a fight, for the most part. With a Warrior, you'd kill someone with that, get enough stamina from Deathblow to use Punisher on the next guy, kill him and get enough stamina for a Whirlwind etc, it doesn't work that way with Rogues. Especially if you're a Strength based Rogue wearing heavy armor since you'll have more fatigue than a Warrior wearing the same gear.

[soteria]

Sure the .28 seconds is a 40% increase. Simple math. But from a gameplay standpoint I think it is much less important then people make it out to be. If you kill someone in 4 seconds and it takes me 5 - big deal. I have a hard time beliving a qrter of a second is that much better. LOL, besides unless you sit right on top of your rogue and micro him every second you will end regular attacking a lot.

If that's the case, then how is using a large weapon for specials any better? You'll do more damage, but not 40% more damage, and as Timortis said you're not going to be using specials constantly. And actually, I do micro dagger rogues. The returns from controlling a rogue is greater than any other class, imo--I can set decent tactics for spells, but not to backstab.