51 réponses à ce sujet

[AusShep]

didymos1120 wrote...

yummysoap wrote...

I don't quite understand the point of making a human-shaped "core" if you're just going to cover it up with squid. I don't think a pointy ceiling or a small bit of a concept art is compelling evidence either. Probably something we'll never know anyway, considering the human reaper turned out being an epic failure.

Why do so many people wear underwear with nifty colors and paisley patterns and suchlike even though no one else might ever see it?  Because they can, they like it, stores sell it, or they've always worn stuff like that.

IOW, it may just be something like pure aesthetics, social convention, tradition or some other non-utilitarian reason. 

ummm probably not going to be the Dark Space Marketing Ploy after all :S
But again, the Larva is probably the shape it is because it is the actual Reaper. The outside 'shell' is merely a vessel/armor thing. The 'ship' part of the whole thing.

[yummysoap]

The thing is. The human reaper (though in extremely early development) had things like moving joints, a big bastard mouth that could fire lazers, three eyes that apparently had use. All for nothing because it's going to be encased in a shell. It just goes against our current understanding of the Reapers cold, brutal efficiency.

[Tal-N]

Well... the Reapman was grown rather than built. It took several hundred thousand humans to construct to it isn't really strange that its form is humanoid since human DNA was the template for it's appearence.



One thing that people seem to be overlooking, which I think is intentional on Biowares behalf, is two interesting facts.



1. Sovriegn said it was the only vanguard of the Reapers. Saren said the same thing.

2. Harbinger said during the destruction of the station that 'you are destroying your only hope of salvation'



So if Harbinger isn't a Reaper, because Sovreign was the only one, then why was someone making a Reaper-Human hybrid? Indeed, if Harbinger was a Reaper then there was little reason to make a new Reaper. Not to mention if Reapers can make themselves then there was no reason for Sovreign to bother to open the Citidal portal as it would have been smarter to make additional Reapers before announcing its presense to the universe. Overconfidence maybe?



But my point is that I don't think the Reapman was intended to destroy humanity or the universe. I think someone was making it because humans killed a Reaper so a Reaper-Human hybrid could potentially save the universe from the Reapers themselves. A harbinger is someone who deliveres messages of doom and destruction, not the cause for the doom itself. I think we just destroyed a prototype weapon which was intended to help fight the Reapers and Harbinger may well be a Prothean or even older alien species who survived the Reapers previously.

[didymos1120]

AusShep wrote...

ummm probably not going to be the Dark Space Marketing Ploy after all :S
But again, the Larva is probably the shape it is because it is the actual Reaper. The outside 'shell' is merely a vessel/armor thing. The 'ship' part of the whole thing.

I didn't say anything about marketing ploys.  I meant it could just be for a reason unrelated to any particular function, contrary to what most people seem to assume.  Again, as an example, tradition: that's just how Reapers do things.  Why? Because that's how they always have, and they like it that way. 

[AusShep]

yummysoap wrote...

I don't quite understand the point of making a human-shaped "core" if you're just going to cover it up with squid. I don't think a pointy ceiling or a small bit of a concept art is compelling evidence either. Probably something we'll never know anyway, considering the human reaper turned out being an epic failure.

The human core does make a lot of sense. It's not merely an oddly shaped interior, it is probably the 'reaper' itself, while the outer shell is for protection/ transportation

[Nibroc17]

didymos1120 wrote...

I'd like to know, but I don't really care so much about the why. I'd much rather people stop saying it's a bad shape for a spaceship, as if things like, oh I don't know, aerodynamics matter to something that will spend 99.9999999....% of the time in the airless void, and on the rare occasions it is not in space would just crank up a hefty mass effect field and tell the atmosphere to mind it's own damn business.

Lols ya most people dont even think about that....

[Llandaryn]

I posted in the great Reaper-shape debate of 2010, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt.

In other words, I'm reserving judgement on many aspects of the Reapers until I have more information to analyse.

[Nibroc17]

Tal-N wrote...

Well... the Reapman was grown rather than built. It took several hundred thousand humans to construct to it isn't really strange that its form is humanoid since human DNA was the template for it's appearence.

One thing that people seem to be overlooking, which I think is intentional on Biowares behalf, is two interesting facts.

1. Sovriegn said it was the only vanguard of the Reapers. Saren said the same thing.
2. Harbinger said during the destruction of the station that 'you are destroying your only hope of salvation'

So if Harbinger isn't a Reaper, because Sovreign was the only one, then why was someone making a Reaper-Human hybrid? Indeed, if Harbinger was a Reaper then there was little reason to make a new Reaper. Not to mention if Reapers can make themselves then there was no reason for Sovreign to bother to open the Citidal portal as it would have been smarter to make additional Reapers before announcing its presense to the universe. Overconfidence maybe?

But my point is that I don't think the Reapman was intended to destroy humanity or the universe. I think someone was making it because humans killed a Reaper so a Reaper-Human hybrid could potentially save the universe from the Reapers themselves. A harbinger is someone who deliveres messages of doom and destruction, not the cause for the doom itself. I think we just destroyed a prototype weapon which was intended to help fight the Reapers and Harbinger may well be a Prothean or even older alien species who survived the Reapers previously.

Your not serious are you??.... Cause thats the most unreasonable explanation i've ever seen... It makes no since what so ever, i mean even if your from opposite universe it makes no since.... Your logic is sadly taken a u-turn in to stupidity, sorry.

[Nibroc17]

And i just forgot your wrong on what harbinger means in this context, he is the Harbinger of our destruction. Not the messenger, thats Nike the guy with the shoes that have wings... Seriously!!!!

[kregano]

Tal-N wrote...

Well... the Reapman was grown rather than built. It took several hundred thousand humans to construct to it isn't really strange that its form is humanoid since human DNA was the template for it's appearence.

One thing that people seem to be overlooking, which I think is intentional on Biowares behalf, is two interesting facts.

1. Sovriegn said it was the only vanguard of the Reapers. Saren said the same thing.
2. Harbinger said during the destruction of the station that 'you are destroying your only hope of salvation'

So if Harbinger isn't a Reaper, because Sovreign was the only one, then why was someone making a Reaper-Human hybrid? Indeed, if Harbinger was a Reaper then there was little reason to make a new Reaper. Not to mention if Reapers can make themselves then there was no reason for Sovreign to bother to open the Citidal portal as it would have been smarter to make additional Reapers before announcing its presense to the universe. Overconfidence maybe?

But my point is that I don't think the Reapman was intended to destroy humanity or the universe. I think someone was making it because humans killed a Reaper so a Reaper-Human hybrid could potentially save the universe from the Reapers themselves. A harbinger is someone who deliveres messages of doom and destruction, not the cause for the doom itself. I think we just destroyed a prototype weapon which was intended to help fight the Reapers and Harbinger may well be a Prothean or even older alien species who survived the Reapers previously.

I think the problem was that Harbinger was out in Dark Space and they needed a Reaper to activate the Citadel, so they just figured it was easier to make a Reaper out of humans than try to take the Ctiadel with the Collector's one warship. And honestly, the odds of Shepard beating Sovereign were incredibly tiny; if Sovereign hadn't assumed direct control of Saren's body, he could've just annihilated the Alliance fleet and opened the Citadel relay so the Reapers could WTFpwn the galaxy.

[BatarianBob]

Now there's obviously quite a bit of talk on the forums about the supposedly rediculous and out of place shape of the human reaper. Some say it will stay as is and proceed to fly around the galaxy superman style, and some claim that it is merely the 'core' which is to be covered with a similar outer design to other Reapers[snip]

Not much point in debating it. It wasn't finished and it never will be, since we blew it up.



So it basically comes down to what you want to think. If you'd prefer to enjoy the game you'll probably just shrug and say "well, it would have looked more Reaper-like when it was finished". If you hate the game with a passion I couldn't match for someone that killed my mother, raped my father, and told my dog that he's "bad", as some people on this forum seem to, you'll probably just latch on to the terminator/superman thing because it's an easy target.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Soveriegn and, by inference from looking at the fleet at the end, all Reapers are about 2kms long.

The "human Reaper's" head didn't look to be more than about 30 meters wide at its widest.  If it is taking upon a human-like form in near-equivalent dimension, the completed human reaper would only be about 300 meters tall, and certainly when looking at it, it doesn't look like it'd finish up much taller than a city sky-scraper, and that's still a heck of a long way short of 2kms.

Where am I going with this?  I'm not sure, but if it's a human Reaper, it's going to be a lot smaller than the rest of the Reapers, and the concept of an exoskeleton shell is hardly a non-existent one even in nature.  What would a turtle look like without it's shell?

Meh, all we know is that it's not fully explained at this point, but the only thing we know for certain is that the human reaper as it was, even if completed, would easily fit within the shell of Sovereign.

[didymos1120]

[quote]Tal-N wrote...

Well... the Reapman was grown rather than built. It took several hundred thousand humans to construct to it isn't really strange that its form is humanoid since human DNA was the template for it's appearence. [/quote]
It wasn't grown. Why do so many people keep saying this? It was mostly made of metal. See?



And this notion that the DNA alone determines the form. Umm, no. You really think a bunch of adult, differentiated cells from hundreds of thousands of humans (i.e, barring any twins or triplets &c. that got snatched, that means hundreds of thousands of unique genomes) are suddenly just going to start behaving like a normal human zygote and magically form a giant embryo? Don't work that way.

The genes responsible for embryonic development don't have any idea how to just cooperate and build giant people. They only know how to build a human infant in a very particular environment ( AKA Mom), starting from a single cell. Basically, genes are extremely context dependent, and contrary to popular belief, they don't actually contain all the information needed to construct a given organism.

[quote]1. Sovriegn said it was the only vanguard of the Reapers. Saren said the same thing.[/quote]
OK. Yes.

[quote]2. Harbinger said during the destruction of the station that 'you are destroying your only hope of salvation'

So if Harbinger isn't a Reaper, because Sovreign was the only one, then why was someone making a Reaper-Human hybrid?[/quote]
And you just take Harby at its word, do you? Why? Has it done anything at all to earn the benefit of the doubt? And from this highly equivocal and dubious evidence, a single sentence, you conclude Harbinger isn't a Reaper? 'Cause nothing else you've cited supports the idea in the least. So it all rests one very slender reed. Also: not what Harby said, as it happens. In fact, taking a look at all of Harby's ending dialogue is good idea (with a bit of commentary):

[quote]Harbinger: Human. You've changed nothing [by destroying that adorable baby Reaper]. Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater [how Sovereign-esque that sounds]. That which you know as Reapers [this is a clue] are your salvation through destruction [so is that].

*then a bunch of cool escape-type stuff happens set to highly epic music*

Harbinger: You have failed. We [the Reapers] will find another way [to kill all of you and turn you into adorable baby Reapers]. Releasing control [of my organic ex-Prothean slaves, which I have because I'm a Reaper and that's just how we roll, baby][/quote]
Well, guess there's zero evidence, as it turns out.

[quote]Indeed, if Harbinger was a Reaper then there was little reason to make a new Reaper. [/quote]
You're clearly assuming something else here, as this makes no sense in isolation. Taken alone, it would suggest that no Reaper would ever have a reason to build another. Obviously, that ain't so, 'cause there's a whole passel of the bastards out in Dark Space. As a guess, I'd say you're assuming Harbinger is currently physically present in the galaxy and could just go open the Citadel relay on its lonesome. Therefore, it must not be a Reaper (which we already know is wrong).

Well, it is not physically present. It was telepresent. What do you think all ASSUMING CONTROL business was about? Did you not see the hologram of a Reaper in the Collector Base at the end when CONTROL WAS RELEASED?



Harbinger wasn't there. It was all done long-distance.

Even were that so (which it's not), it really didn't go well the last time a Reaper tried assaulting the Citadel, and people are probably a bit trigger happy over there at the moment. It also raises the question of why did Harbinger not lend Sovvy a hand (or rather a mecha-tentacle) in the last game. I say all this because Harbinger is indeed a Reaper (because, remember, it said it was), and therefore the absurdities that result by assuming it is already here in the Milky Way are even more reasons to ditch that assumption. You know, just wanna make that clear in case you were planning to build a new theory on that notion.

[quote]Not to mention if Reapers can make themselves then there was no reason for Sovreign to bother to open the Citidal portal as it would have been smarter to make additional Reapers before announcing its presense to the universe. Overconfidence maybe?[/quote]
Yeah, good idea! Sovereign should have initiated mass kidnappings of billions of people and built an army of new Reapers instead of bothering with that Citadel nonsense. It's not like anyone would notice a few billion missing here or there. And, like, what: a mere few million tons of eezo for all those enormous mass effect cores, probably billions of tons of other metals for the superstructures? No problem!

[quote]But my point is that I don't think the Reapman was intended to destroy humanity or the universe. [/quote]
What the hell? The universe? No one is attempting to destroy the universe. No one's even attempting to destroy the galaxy. The Reapers don't even want to eradicate all intelligent life, just intelligent life that's learned how to operate the Mass Relays.

[quote]I think someone was making it because humans killed a Reaper so a Reaper-Human hybrid could potentially save the universe from the Reapers themselves. [/quote]
Again: no one is saving the universe from the Reapers because they aren't trying to destroy it. It's where they keep all their stuff.

[quote]A harbinger is someone who deliveres messages of doom and destruction, not the cause for the doom itself. [/quote]
Dictionary time! Harbinger (courtesy of the Oxford English Dictionary, which costs money to view. Sorry about that, but I'm payin' for it, so I'm usin' it. Also: bolding mine):

[quote]2. One sent on before to purvey lodgings for an army, a royal train, etc.; a purveyor of lodgings; in pl., an advance company of an army sent to prepare a camping-ground; a pioneer who prepares the way.

3. One that goes before and announces the approach of some one; a forerunner.[/quote]
So no: Harbinger (the Reaper) is a harbinger of the former, army-related variety, not the generic announcer type of the latter. BTW, messages of doom and destruction are actually not part of the job description. Harbingers can announce just about anything, really.

[quote]I think we just destroyed a prototype weapon which was intended to help fight the Reapers and Harbinger may well be a Prothean or even older alien species who survived the Reapers previously.[/quote]
I think we just destroyed a partially completed Reaper. And, uh, doesn't it strike you as somewhat incongruous that someone so supposedly anti-Reaper would enslave the remants of what may have been their own species (according to you)? Or that said someone just acts and sounds so darn Reapery all the time, in addition to, you know, claiming to be a Reaper?

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 mars 2010 - 08:57 .

[toezz]

yummysoap wrote...

I don't quite understand the point of making a human-shaped "core" if you're just going to cover it up with squid. I don't think a pointy ceiling or a small bit of a concept art is compelling evidence either. Probably something we'll never know anyway, considering the human reaper turned out being an epic failure.

And i don't understand why we need a skull to protect our brain.. why bother.. couldn't we all walk around with our brains out..

My point being: The Human Reaper Larva was the main core of a reaper.. the "brain" if you will..

[The Angry One]

Not only does the human-Reaper look metal, it also makes mechanical sounds when it moves, it's joints are clearly mechanical and it obviously has never grown like a normal fetus since it has no legs yet a fully developed torso.



The whole thing makes no sense really. Is the organic matter just energy to maintain it's systems as it's built? Well why would you turn it on before it's constructed? Is it for it's "brain"? Then why would it take a human form? Were the collectors told to construct it in a human image? Why? The cuttlefish design is already more efficient in space.

[didymos1120]

toezz wrote...

yummysoap wrote...

I don't quite understand the point of making a human-shaped "core" if you're just going to cover it up with squid. I don't think a pointy ceiling or a small bit of a concept art is compelling evidence either. Probably something we'll never know anyway, considering the human reaper turned out being an epic failure.

And i don't understand why we need a skull to protect our brain.. why bother.. couldn't we all walk around with our brains out..

My point being: The Human Reaper Larva was the main core of a reaper.. the "brain" if you will..

I've actually considered that the human-shaped bit might have ultimately had the ability to operate independently, and actually is the Reaper.  If so, then the squid/crustacean hulls would be detachable in general and more like the Reaper version of N7 armor.  I can't really think of a good reason for this though, so it's not something I take very seriously. 

[didymos1120]

[bioware must fix forum software]

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 mars 2010 - 09:32 .

[didymos1120]

[bioware must fix forum software]

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 mars 2010 - 09:28 .

[didymos1120]

The Angry One wrote...

Not only does the human-Reaper look metal, it also makes mechanical sounds when it moves, it's joints are clearly mechanical and it obviously has never grown like a normal fetus since it has no legs yet a fully developed torso.

The whole thing makes no sense really. Is the organic matter just energy to maintain it's systems as it's built? Well why would you turn it on before it's constructed? Is it for it's "brain"? Then why would it take a human form? Were the collectors told to construct it in a human image? Why? The cuttlefish design is already more efficient in space.

I suspect they really do have some use for the cells, and possibly reprogram them into stem-cell mode.  Still, hard to see why.   One notion, as you said, is that Reaper brains are partly actual brain tissue, and they use the neurons of each particular species (I don't know, for "flava"?).  Could be they do it to give themselves biotic abilities, or there's just some subtle propoerties organic minds they can't replicate satisfactorily.  At this point, who the hell knows? 

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 mars 2010 - 09:27 .

[didymos1120]

[bioware must fix forum software]

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 mars 2010 - 09:26 .

[yummysoap]

toezz wrote...

yummysoap wrote...

I don't quite understand the point of making a human-shaped "core" if you're just going to cover it up with squid. I don't think a pointy ceiling or a small bit of a concept art is compelling evidence either. Probably something we'll never know anyway, considering the human reaper turned out being an epic failure.

And i don't understand why we need a skull to protect our brain.. why bother.. couldn't we all walk around with our brains out..

My point being: The Human Reaper Larva was the main core of a reaper.. the "brain" if you will..

That argument would be a lot more valid if the Reapers made a giant mechanical brain instead of a functioning body.

There's quite a big difference between having a skull that defends the big ball that defines our consciousness and actions and.. well.. everything, and having a fully fledged, operating "body" encased in a shell where it can't move. All those joints and mouth lazers and "optics" are utterly redundant and resource-wasting when they could have just made a giant ball as the reaper's "core" and then stuck it in a squid, much alike our brain.

I have already said this three times, but people always choose to quote the worst of me :<

Modifié par yummysoap, 02 mars 2010 - 07:41 .

[ObserverStatus]

So sovereign isn't made out of fleas?

[harazal]

Some people are simply thick when it comes to the ME2 story,

Nazara was 2km long. 2000 meters..... The larva at the end was at most 100 feet, maybe 200 when complete. Why people assumed a giant skeleton would simply fly through space shows a complete lack of cognative thinking.

Its not to hard to imagine a human hybrid embeded within the main structure of the reaper frame, designed specifically to indoctrinate humans, as the current field is completely ineffective. Driving people insane is not a good way to make docile slaves.

[NebulaY]

i just think that there are so many layers of the reaper-story that need to come together in the end that you cant really say whats up:
-reapers "soured" reachni
-reapers took geth as loyal servents
-keepers still have an unknown programming in their dna
-unnatural dark energy in dholens sun
-human shaped reapers from massively altered protheans aka collectors
-a collector base built in the center of the galaxy to wait 50k years?!
-the plague on omega was collector origin too
-and why in the world destroy the peak of a civilisation every 50k years or so since a over a million years as mentioned by liara?! (a million years being quite a small time in galactic terms..)

ok there are a lot more points but lets make some more or less weird assumptions about it

1) why the human reaper? humans are very diverse in their genetics, especially regarding other races as stated by mordin. and they allready were the major force in killing sovereign. did you notice a lot of humans indoctrinated? (not the ones affected by thorian spores). maybe the human reaper should be something like a god-figure to indoctrinate humans.. even given one or two million humans made into soup there would be many many left to indoctrinate and building a good base for the next collector-like race. the first time you see the reaper reminds me a lot of neon genesis evangelion so maybe there is my godlike-association from ^^

2) weird one: dholens sun building up a huge dark energy center at the core where a human-baby-reaper could be injected and evolve into a very mighty "real-reaper" with the lovecraftish tentacles and all *g*

3) humans actually represent something the reapers waited for all the time: they were programmed by their makers to find the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything else...42..ehm...
no but god: and because they didnt find god their ai programming decided they had to create god theirself. so they searched for the one lifeform with whom they could make the perfect symbiosis of logic and emotion. a beeing that could eradicate every variable from any probability calculus..even the emotional ones.
so they let life evolve a chosen path where it would interact with element zero and thereby dark energy...the fabric of the universe itself. when they arrived at the high point of their civilization they were tested but failed...and to make room for the next subjects they had to be annihilated.
so the human reaper in which humans were made ready for "ascension" as harbinger said would be either the test or the "we have our chosen" project.

the third one actually makes sense somehow but i hope i am not even near the answer because if i am i will find ME3 the lames game ever for knowing the outcome 2 years before

edit: and i would be disappointed by nr.3 because i dont like humans ^^

Modifié par NebulaY, 02 mars 2010 - 08:34 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I hope human reapers won't be flying through space like big naked supermen too. Afterall, boarding a reaper leaves two unpleasant possibilities then with the docking bays being the mouth or the butt. And since the mouth was spouting out death rays...well...I don't want to dock the human reaper!



That being said, if reapers settle on squid shapes....why? Hopefully there's an interesting reason for this. Maybe they are sentimental to their original shape before they became machines?