86 réponses à ce sujet

[Knoll Argonar]

Nightwriter wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

snip

This might be a defensible argument, IF the Council hadn't treated you with condescension, rudeness, and outright disrespect.

They did not give you the benefit of the doubt, they did not come clean with you and tell you this is what they were doing. They hung you out to dry and made you feel your word counted for nothing. They told you that you were mentally unstable, a fool.

I don't care if they didn't want Cerberus to know, you can't tell me the Council couldn't have found a way to have a single conversation with you safe from Cerberus's ears. They could've found a way to communicate this to you, to explain themselves. They didn't. 

Hmmmmm I don't think so. For all we know, even Udina could be a Cerberus operative xDDD (which I think he is, but that's another story).

Remeber that EDI until the end of the game keeps sending any data from the Normandy, the crew, your messages, your mission, your convos, your decisions, etc. to the Illusive Man. He even appears somehow AFTER you "beat" the Human Reaper, not before. Hell, he even probably saw Tali's face first than my Shepard did!

Too risky, and it was not necessary. Making you believe you had to work with Cerberus makes sure you'll let TIM help you, and viceversa. In the end, if you finally join Cerberus.

But, hey, I agree, finger quoting me will end up in death. Remember the Grunts image of a "Dead Turian"? He'll LIVE IT.

[FlintlockJazz]

Computron2000 wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Regarding the Quarians, one thing I discovered recently, literally last night in fact, is that there is a planet that the Quarians actually tried to settle and colonise after being driven out by the Geth, but not only was their application to the Council rejected who instead chose to give it to the Elcor, but the Quarian colonists already there were given one month to get off the planet before they would be forcibly chucked out (I think it even hinted at the threat of fatal force, since the Quarians literally abandoned half their stuff in their rush to get out of there).  This does not sound like a benign leadership (and considering the Quarians were the ones to find the planet in the first place, makes you wonder what right they had to decide who got the planet...).

I'm guessing this is from a planet description somewhere? If so can you tell us whats the planet's name so we can take a look too?

Yep, I can't remember the exact one at the moment so I'll check tonight when I get on, but I believe it's one of the planets in the cluster that has Legion's loyalty mission in, as I found this out after checking out the planets that I had skipped after finishing the game.  If it's not there it could be in Hawking Eta (where you pick up the Reaper IFF from) as that was the other star system I hadn't finished scanning until the end of the game, though I'm pretty sure its in the Legion's Loyalty mission cluster as I call it, since I remember thinking that it must have been deliberately to link the two together.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nightwriter wrote...
I wouldn't have felt betrayed by the good guys, I wouldn't have been so disgusted at being forced to work with Cerberus, my old Alliance pals wouldn't have treated me with disdain as I would've told them I was undercover, it would've explained why a few old squaddies couldn't join me, and it would've been SO fun tricking TIM.

And at the end, the big finale "good or bad" decision, instead of destroying or keeping the Collector base, would've been who you give it to. Do you side with Cerberus, tell them you were a spy, and give them the Collector base? Or do you side with the Council, destroy Cerberus from within, and give them the Collector base? And what you decide determines who's there to fight the Reapers when they get here.

See, this is the kind of binary good/evil choices I really want to keep out of Mass Effect. You're supposed to feel uncomfortable working with Cerberus, because you know they're the bad guys, but you don't have the luxury of having anyone else at your side. In the end, it's Shepard alone versus the greatest threat of the Galaxy. Well, Shepard and the dregs and underdogs of the galaxy who have been forgotten by the "civilized" galaxy which she/he has marshalled to his/her cause. The Council is a governing body that literally governs over the mouth of hell... the gateway from which the Reapers have traditionally emerged from to drag the galaxy into extinction. The metaphor in ME1 was clear enough that the Council, by centering itself on the Citadel, is only another tool that the Reapers use to divide the galaxy and allow them to conquer it more easily. There should be no "easy" answers and Paragon decisions shouldn't always equal the best ones, which it sounds like is what you're asking for with the decision to give the Collector Base to the Council (nevermind the fact that they probably wouldn't believe you and even if they did would not make effective use of it anyway)

I don't want the ending of ME3 to simply be that the good guys ride in on their white horses to stop the Reapers once and for all. I would prefer something more complex. Something more ambitious. I want a story that Bioware has, for all I love them, not ever been able to tell effectively.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 01 mars 2010 - 11:58 .

[Tal-N]

In general, ME2 doesn't have anywhere nearly as good an overall story as ME1 but the character development and the characters themselves were much much better. That said, there wasn't anywhere nearly enough interaction BETWEEN the crew. It was like they were totally unaware of each other plus when you spoke to characters on your missions your party members rarely got involved. But in ME1 they almost aways had an opinion on what was happening.



There is a point in ME1 when you arrive at Saren's base and you have the indoctrinated Salarians in the prison cell standing there looking harmless. That one alone had lots of interactions with the squad and it was really quite moving when they turn their backs on you and look away if you choose the slaughter the mindless prisoners.



So if I had one complaints about ME2 that would be it, thankfully it can be easily fixed. I suspect the problems are due to the significant increase in the number of possible crew members which resulted in development time on the story being spread thinner. I'd be quite happy to have a smaller crew but with a more interesting story and more interaction with and between the crew itself.

[FlintlockJazz]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

The Council is a governing body that literally governs over the mouth of hell... the gateway from which the Reapers have traditionally emerged from to drag the galaxy into extinction. The metaphor in ME1 was clear enough that the Council, by centering itself on the Citadel, is only another tool that the Reapers use to divide the galaxy and allow them to conquer it more easily.

That is a damn good point, I did wonder why they were still based there despite the reapers coming from there.  I wonder if there is some sort of indoctrination that occurs from the citadel itself, except that unlike the indoctrination from the reapers themselves the citadel instead makes it's victims ignore the truth, sort of like how the keepers are only concerned with running the citadel the council is indoctrinated to only concern themselves with keeping things as they are...

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 01 mars 2010 - 12:02 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

The Council is a governing body that literally governs over the mouth of hell... the gateway from which the Reapers have traditionally emerged from to drag the galaxy into extinction. The metaphor in ME1 was clear enough that the Council, by centering itself on the Citadel, is only another tool that the Reapers use to divide the galaxy and allow them to conquer it more easily.

That is a damn good point, I did wonder why they were still based there despite the reapers coming from there.  I wonder if there is some sort of indoctrination that occurs from the citadel itself, except that unlike the indoctrination from the reapers themselves the citadel instead makes it's victims ignore the truth, sort of like how the keepers are only concerned with running the citadel the council is indoctrinated to only concern themselves with keeping things as they are...

I've wondered the same. I mean, it always bugged me to hell that the Citadel has been inhabited for thousands of years, yet nobody seems to really know anything about the damn thing or even take the most basic steps to investigate what's up with the Keepers or how it functions. Maybe indoctrination can be even more subtle than we imagined?

[Amethyst Deceiver]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

See, this is the kind of binary good/evil choices I really want to keep out of Mass Effect. You're supposed to feel uncomfortable working with Cerberus, because you know they're the bad guys, but you don't have the luxury of having anyone else at your side. In the end, it's Shepard alone versus the greatest threat of the Galaxy. Well, Shepard and the dregs and underdogs of the galaxy who have been forgotten by the "civilized" galaxy which she/he has marshalled to his/her cause. The Council is a governing body that literally governs over the mouth of hell... the gateway from which the Reapers have traditionally emerged from to drag the galaxy into extinction. The metaphor in ME1 was clear enough that the Council, by centering itself on the Citadel, is only another tool that the Reapers use to divide the galaxy and allow them to conquer it more easily. There should be no "easy" answers and Paragon decisions shouldn't always equal the best ones, which it sounds like is what you're asking for with the decision to give the Collector Base to the Council (nevermind the fact that they probably wouldn't believe you and even if they did would not make effective use of it anyway)

this is kind of scary. would be amazing if it were true. i like the citadel/gates of hell analogy, especially when Cerberus (mythologically) was the guardian of the gates of hell.

implications... frightening

Modifié par Amethyst Deceiver, 01 mars 2010 - 12:09 .

[Steel Dancer]

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

you know whats even worse?

if you pick "save the council" (which i am now convinced is 'non-canon' decision) they say "whoa thanks shep, you risked people to save us! thanks for dealing with saren and the REAPER sovreign. we are in your debt" mind you the turian spat out the admittance of the reaper as sovreign verbatim.

2 years pass...

"ah yes 'reapers' we have dismissed that claim"

i guess we missed something important in those 2 years

"..And that's why I hate politicians."

The Sole Survivor angle irritates, badly.

[superimposed]

To be honest, in a summary the plot is fine. It's the absence of small things which **** it up. Shepard should have had the option to go to the council first before TIM, or agree to work with TIM straight off the bat. EIther way would have led him to work with Cerberus.

The council's actual dialogue would be fine if they had different inflections. A little uncertainty when they say the reapers aren't real, for example.

The characters needed more expansion, rather than depth, as the depth was there it just wasn't addressed.

[FlintlockJazz]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

The Council is a governing body that literally governs over the mouth of hell... the gateway from which the Reapers have traditionally emerged from to drag the galaxy into extinction. The metaphor in ME1 was clear enough that the Council, by centering itself on the Citadel, is only another tool that the Reapers use to divide the galaxy and allow them to conquer it more easily.

That is a damn good point, I did wonder why they were still based there despite the reapers coming from there.  I wonder if there is some sort of indoctrination that occurs from the citadel itself, except that unlike the indoctrination from the reapers themselves the citadel instead makes it's victims ignore the truth, sort of like how the keepers are only concerned with running the citadel the council is indoctrinated to only concern themselves with keeping things as they are...

I've wondered the same. I mean, it always bugged me to hell that the Citadel has been inhabited for thousands of years, yet nobody seems to really know anything about the damn thing or even take the most basic steps to investigate what's up with the Keepers or how it functions. Maybe indoctrination can be even more subtle than we imagined?

I've only just started reading Ascension, but I've heard that at one point Anderson notices how all the races who have been on the citadel longer than humanity don't seem to even notice the keepers let along care about where they come from, which he thinks is downright strange.  At first I thought it was because they have given up on finding out and was just a sign of how complacent they had gotten, but now I'm wondering if the citadel is giving out a signal basically telling everyone to 'not worry about the keepers, or how the citadel works, or even where it comes from, just set up here and everything will be alright...' kind of thing.  Indoctrination is supposed to occur so subtly you don't even notice it happening after all...

[SurfaceBeneath]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

The Council is a governing body that literally governs over the mouth of hell... the gateway from which the Reapers have traditionally emerged from to drag the galaxy into extinction. The metaphor in ME1 was clear enough that the Council, by centering itself on the Citadel, is only another tool that the Reapers use to divide the galaxy and allow them to conquer it more easily.

That is a damn good point, I did wonder why they were still based there despite the reapers coming from there.  I wonder if there is some sort of indoctrination that occurs from the citadel itself, except that unlike the indoctrination from the reapers themselves the citadel instead makes it's victims ignore the truth, sort of like how the keepers are only concerned with running the citadel the council is indoctrinated to only concern themselves with keeping things as they are...

I've wondered the same. I mean, it always bugged me to hell that the Citadel has been inhabited for thousands of years, yet nobody seems to really know anything about the damn thing or even take the most basic steps to investigate what's up with the Keepers or how it functions. Maybe indoctrination can be even more subtle than we imagined?

I've only just started reading Ascension, but I've heard that at one point Anderson notices how all the races who have been on the citadel longer than humanity don't seem to even notice the keepers let along care about where they come from, which he thinks is downright strange.  At first I thought it was because they have given up on finding out and was just a sign of how complacent they had gotten, but now I'm wondering if the citadel is giving out a signal basically telling everyone to 'not worry about the keepers, or how the citadel works, or even where it comes from, just set up here and everything will be alright...' kind of thing.  Indoctrination is supposed to occur so subtly you don't even notice it happening after all...

Well then. Looks like we know exactly why the Council so vehemently denies the existence of Reapers afterall

I'm glad that argument is over and people can finally stop decrying that part of the game as "badly written"

[superimposed]

As the Salarian says "nobody's been able to analyse the keepers before". He had to invent a whole system to do it.

[Amethyst Deceiver]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I've heard that at one point Anderson notices how all the races who have been on the citadel longer than humanity don't seem to even notice the keepers let along care about where they come from, which he thinks is downright strange. 

he mentions this in ME2 very briefly when you speak with him.

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Well then. Looks like we know exactly why the Council so vehemently denies the existence of Reapers afterall [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

I'm glad that argument is over and people can finally stop decrying that part of the game as "badly written"

i really hope this eventually becomes revealed as the truth. i think this would be a great plot twist (although i fell like this could have been set up in a more profound way and not through obscure dialog/outside reading material

i'll gladly eat my shoe and take it all back LOL

[FlintlockJazz]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

The Council is a governing body that literally governs over the mouth of hell... the gateway from which the Reapers have traditionally emerged from to drag the galaxy into extinction. The metaphor in ME1 was clear enough that the Council, by centering itself on the Citadel, is only another tool that the Reapers use to divide the galaxy and allow them to conquer it more easily.

That is a damn good point, I did wonder why they were still based there despite the reapers coming from there.  I wonder if there is some sort of indoctrination that occurs from the citadel itself, except that unlike the indoctrination from the reapers themselves the citadel instead makes it's victims ignore the truth, sort of like how the keepers are only concerned with running the citadel the council is indoctrinated to only concern themselves with keeping things as they are...

I've wondered the same. I mean, it always bugged me to hell that the Citadel has been inhabited for thousands of years, yet nobody seems to really know anything about the damn thing or even take the most basic steps to investigate what's up with the Keepers or how it functions. Maybe indoctrination can be even more subtle than we imagined?

I've only just started reading Ascension, but I've heard that at one point Anderson notices how all the races who have been on the citadel longer than humanity don't seem to even notice the keepers let along care about where they come from, which he thinks is downright strange.  At first I thought it was because they have given up on finding out and was just a sign of how complacent they had gotten, but now I'm wondering if the citadel is giving out a signal basically telling everyone to 'not worry about the keepers, or how the citadel works, or even where it comes from, just set up here and everything will be alright...' kind of thing.  Indoctrination is supposed to occur so subtly you don't even notice it happening after all...

Well then. Looks like we know exactly why the Council so vehemently denies the existence of Reapers afterall

I'm glad that argument is over and people can finally stop decrying that part of the game as "badly written"

I can already see the scene in ME3:

Shepard:  OMG the reapers are just outside the door!
Turian Councillor: *Walking into the reaper's mouth*  Ah yes, "Reapers"...

[Amethyst Deceiver]

theres a whole thread somewhere on this board about the turian's "ah yes reapers" quote coming back to bite him in the ass, some pretty funny stuff in there.

[Nozybidaj]

Nightwriter wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

It would have made much more sense for the Council to believe you while at the same time keeping the public in the dark about it.  The only reason they don't is the writers felt you needed to be "left without any options" to make the story work.  I would have prefered to see the Council look at your connection with Cerberus as an opportunity, give you their own secret mission to spy on Cerberus while you face this new Reaper threat.  It would have made a lot more sense all around without sacrificing the direction the writers wanted to force you in, but also didn't make the Council out to be willfully stupid.

This is exactly the way it should've gone. Going undercover in Cerberus would've been awesome. Would've made romancing Jacob or Miranda all the more interesting, too, but that's another thing...

I wouldn't have felt betrayed by the good guys, I wouldn't have been so disgusted at being forced to work with Cerberus, my old Alliance pals wouldn't have treated me with disdain as I would've told them I was undercover, it would've explained why a few old squaddies couldn't join me, and it would've been SO fun tricking TIM.

And at the end, the big finale "good or bad" decision, instead of destroying or keeping the Collector base, would've been who you give it to. Do you side with Cerberus, tell them you were a spy, and give them the Collector base? Or do you side with the Council, destroy Cerberus from within, and give them the Collector base? And what you decide determines who's there to fight the Reapers when they get here.

Exactly.

[Nozybidaj]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...


I've only just started reading Ascension, but I've heard that at one point Anderson notices how all the races who have been on the citadel longer than humanity don't seem to even notice the keepers let along care about where they come from, which he thinks is downright strange.  At first I thought it was because they have given up on finding out and was just a sign of how complacent they had gotten, but now I'm wondering if the citadel is giving out a signal basically telling everyone to 'not worry about the keepers, or how the citadel works, or even where it comes from, just set up here and everything will be alright...' kind of thing.  Indoctrination is supposed to occur so subtly you don't even notice it happening after all...

Well then. Looks like we know exactly why the Council so vehemently denies the existence of Reapers afterall

I'm glad that argument is over and people can finally stop decrying that part of the game as "badly written"

If true, if the Citadel is indoctrinating the people that live there, it may not be "badly written" but it is bad story telling.  Its all well and good to have the accompanying books and other media but if you start to remove vital information and story arcs from the game/movie/show/etc. itself and place them in the "other" media and never mention it in the game, that is ridiculous.  It just leaves people who do play the game completely in the dark about what is going on.

[Knoll Argonar]

You should be able to finger quote the Council.



"Yeah, I may be crazy, but you know what? you're badly written =X"



Srsly, I didn't like Council reaction, but I understood it.

[FlintlockJazz]

Nozybidaj wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...


I've only just started reading Ascension, but I've heard that at one point Anderson notices how all the races who have been on the citadel longer than humanity don't seem to even notice the keepers let along care about where they come from, which he thinks is downright strange.  At first I thought it was because they have given up on finding out and was just a sign of how complacent they had gotten, but now I'm wondering if the citadel is giving out a signal basically telling everyone to 'not worry about the keepers, or how the citadel works, or even where it comes from, just set up here and everything will be alright...' kind of thing.  Indoctrination is supposed to occur so subtly you don't even notice it happening after all...

Well then. Looks like we know exactly why the Council so vehemently denies the existence of Reapers afterall

I'm glad that argument is over and people can finally stop decrying that part of the game as "badly written"

If true, if the Citadel is indoctrinating the people that live there, it may not be "badly written" but it is bad story telling.  Its all well and good to have the accompanying books and other media but if you start to remove vital information and story arcs from the game/movie/show/etc. itself and place them in the "other" media and never mention it in the game, that is ridiculous.  It just leaves people who do play the game completely in the dark about what is going on.

Not really, it's just that Shepard hasn't found it out yet.  The keepers were made obvious that there was more to them in ME1 anyway, and that not much is actually known about the citadel.  Shepard doesn't really have any reason to suspect the council of being indoctrinated beyond them being idiots, and he's more likely to conclude that they are idiots than indoctrinated from that.

[glacier1701]

The only problem with believing that the Citadel is indoctrinating people fails on 2 points. Anderson, despite being on the Citadel for 2 years still believes in the Reapers and continually pushes the Council to take action against the threat. And there is the Salarian who we scanned the Keepers for. He was not ignoring them the Keepers for a start and in game can tell you that they are NOT what everyone thinks they are. He certainly is not acting as if indoctrinated.

[Nozybidaj]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...


I've only just started reading Ascension, but I've heard that at one point Anderson notices how all the races who have been on the citadel longer than humanity don't seem to even notice the keepers let along care about where they come from, which he thinks is downright strange.  At first I thought it was because they have given up on finding out and was just a sign of how complacent they had gotten, but now I'm wondering if the citadel is giving out a signal basically telling everyone to 'not worry about the keepers, or how the citadel works, or even where it comes from, just set up here and everything will be alright...' kind of thing.  Indoctrination is supposed to occur so subtly you don't even notice it happening after all...

Well then. Looks like we know exactly why the Council so vehemently denies the existence of Reapers afterall

I'm glad that argument is over and people can finally stop decrying that part of the game as "badly written"

If true, if the Citadel is indoctrinating the people that live there, it may not be "badly written" but it is bad story telling.  Its all well and good to have the accompanying books and other media but if you start to remove vital information and story arcs from the game/movie/show/etc. itself and place them in the "other" media and never mention it in the game, that is ridiculous.  It just leaves people who do play the game completely in the dark about what is going on.

Not really, it's just that Shepard hasn't found it out yet.  The keepers were made obvious that there was more to them in ME1 anyway, and that not much is actually known about the citadel.  Shepard doesn't really have any reason to suspect the council of being indoctrinated beyond them being idiots, and he's more likely to conclude that they are idiots than indoctrinated from that.

Shepard, as the protagonist, doesn't need to know, but we the players need to know.  Otherwise their actions have no context and make no sense.

[silentstephi]

I stand by my theory that the Keepers or Citidal has it's own low level indoctrination going on.

[FlintlockJazz]

Nozybidaj wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Not really, it's just that Shepard hasn't found it out yet.  The keepers were made obvious that there was more to them in ME1 anyway, and that not much is actually known about the citadel.  Shepard doesn't really have any reason to suspect the council of being indoctrinated beyond them being idiots, and he's more likely to conclude that they are idiots than indoctrinated from that.

Shepard, as the protagonist, doesn't need to know, but we the players need to know.  Otherwise their actions have no context and make no sense.

Well, if it means revealing a huge plot element then they are kinda screwed either way.  I suppose we'll see in ME3 if this works out, but considering that many are questioning the council's judgement anyway it might not be such a stretch.

[FlintlockJazz]

glacier1701 wrote...

The only problem with believing that the Citadel is indoctrinating people fails on 2 points. Anderson, despite being on the Citadel for 2 years still believes in the Reapers and continually pushes the Council to take action against the threat. And there is the Salarian who we scanned the Keepers for. He was not ignoring them the Keepers for a start and in game can tell you that they are NOT what everyone thinks they are. He certainly is not acting as if indoctrinated.

It might be low level, and take alot of time to fully affect people, it seems to be those who have lived there for years who are most affected.  It's also not necessarily the same kind of indoctrination since the affected still have free will, it may just encourage certain modes of thought.  If it is a matter of how long you have been on the citadel as to how affected you are then that could indicate that maybe the salarian councillors (being such short lived creatures) have, over generations, noticed the affect on their fellow councillors more and more, maybe leading up to a mission wherein the salarian councillor finally comes forward to ask Shepard to look into it, he does seem to be more quieter than the other two, and the salarians have never seemed to be particularly powerful on the council... 

The asari councillor, in particular, being such a longlived species might be completely under it's sway, and being the obvious biggest power bloc in the council the most worrying.  The turian, well, no one likes that particular councillor anyway.