86 réponses à ce sujet

[FlintlockJazz]

Computron2000 wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Regarding the Quarians, one thing I discovered recently, literally last night in fact, is that there is a planet that the Quarians actually tried to settle and colonise after being driven out by the Geth, but not only was their application to the Council rejected who instead chose to give it to the Elcor, but the Quarian colonists already there were given one month to get off the planet before they would be forcibly chucked out (I think it even hinted at the threat of fatal force, since the Quarians literally abandoned half their stuff in their rush to get out of there).  This does not sound like a benign leadership (and considering the Quarians were the ones to find the planet in the first place, makes you wonder what right they had to decide who got the planet...).

I'm guessing this is from a planet description somewhere? If so can you tell us whats the planet's name so we can take a look too?

Found it now, the planet in question was Ekuna in the Salahiel System in the Phoenix Massing Cluster.  Here's some screenshots I took, right-click and select view image for a full-size version (taken in 1920x1200 resolution):

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 01 mars 2010 - 09:49 .

[Terraneaux]

I think the idea that the Citadel indoctrinates people is silly. Remember, indoctrination causes *noticable* psychological problems like talking to yourself, hearing voices, etc. The council doesn't display any of these traits, and galactic civilization would *notice* if everyone on the citadel slowly went crazy.



And to all those using the 'lol politicians' excuse for the behavior of the council: Stop. What we're complaining about is not an instance of politicians acting in a self-interested manner, but politicians acting in a self-destructive manner by being hostile towards someone with a track record of saving their ass. Politicians are corrupt with an alarming frequency in the real world, true, but corrupt generally means acting in your own self-interests at the expense of others, and the council is just being stupid.

[FlintlockJazz]

Terraneaux wrote...

I think the idea that the Citadel indoctrinates people is silly. Remember, indoctrination causes *noticable* psychological problems like talking to yourself, hearing voices, etc. The council doesn't display any of these traits, and galactic civilization would *notice* if everyone on the citadel slowly went crazy.

No it isn't, the indoctrination experienced by those on the dead reaper was extreme due to the reaper being dead and therefore not directed or as subtle as it could be.  It has been said that indoctrination can be so subtle no one notices until it's too late, and we are not saying that the council is indoctrinated, just that the citadel gives off a signal similar to it just weaker or more subtle than normal indoctrination, one that doesn't try to control just emphasises certain reactions to things (such as ignoring big giant reaper threats unless it's right outside their door).

Terraneaux wrote...

And to all those using the 'lol politicians' excuse for the behavior of the council: Stop. What we're complaining about is not an instance of politicians acting in a self-interested manner, but politicians acting in a self-destructive
manner by being hostile towards someone with a track record of saving their ass. Politicians are corrupt with an alarming frequency in the real world, true, but corrupt generally means acting in your own self-interests at the expense of others, and the council is just being stupid.

In which case the citadel indoctrinating them makes sense as a reason why they would act in such a way, right?

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 01 mars 2010 - 11:07 .

[silentstephi]

Terraneaux wrote...

I think the idea that the Citadel indoctrinates people is silly. Remember, indoctrination causes *noticable* psychological problems like talking to yourself, hearing voices, etc. The council doesn't display any of these traits, and galactic civilization would *notice* if everyone on the citadel slowly went crazy.
 

That's why I said some sort of low level or if you want, low intensity.  Hell, for all we know it's not Indocrination as we know it, but the Reapers have become experts at forging the ways organics progress techniclogicly for millions of years.  That the Cidatel would have some sort of complacency aura or program or what have you built into it makes a whole hell of a lot of sense, especially since it's _always_ made into the center of the galactic community.

[Urazz]

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

you know whats even worse?

if you pick "save the council" (which i am now convinced is 'non-canon' decision) they say "whoa thanks shep, you risked people to save us! thanks for dealing with saren and the REAPER sovreign. we are in your debt" mind you the turian spat out the admittance of the reaper as sovreign verbatim.

2 years pass...

"ah yes 'reapers' we have dismissed that claim"

i guess we missed something important in those 2 years

I only saved their sorry butts on my paragon playthrough only because I prefer the rest of the galaxy trusting humanity over the brewing civil war feel when the council dies.

[Missouri Tigers]

Admiral: But if you're looking for an honorable death, you could take back the Alerei...
Shepard: You realize what I did on Feros?  On Eden Prime?  Noveria?  Virmire?  Ilos?  The Citadel?  I don't think that's going to be too much of a problem...

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nozybidaj wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...


I've only just started reading Ascension, but I've heard that at one point Anderson notices how all the races who have been on the citadel longer than humanity don't seem to even notice the keepers let along care about where they come from, which he thinks is downright strange.  At first I thought it was because they have given up on finding out and was just a sign of how complacent they had gotten, but now I'm wondering if the citadel is giving out a signal basically telling everyone to 'not worry about the keepers, or how the citadel works, or even where it comes from, just set up here and everything will be alright...' kind of thing.  Indoctrination is supposed to occur so subtly you don't even notice it happening after all...

Well then. Looks like we know exactly why the Council so vehemently denies the existence of Reapers afterall

I'm glad that argument is over and people can finally stop decrying that part of the game as "badly written"

If true, if the Citadel is indoctrinating the people that live there, it may not be "badly written" but it is bad story telling.  Its all well and good to have the accompanying books and other media but if you start to remove vital information and story arcs from the game/movie/show/etc. itself and place them in the "other" media and never mention it in the game, that is ridiculous.  It just leaves people who do play the game completely in the dark about what is going on.

Not really, it's just that Shepard hasn't found it out yet.  The keepers were made obvious that there was more to them in ME1 anyway, and that not much is actually known about the citadel.  Shepard doesn't really have any reason to suspect the council of being indoctrinated beyond them being idiots, and he's more likely to conclude that they are idiots than indoctrinated from that.

Shepard, as the protagonist, doesn't need to know, but we the players need to know.  Otherwise their actions have no context and make no sense.

Wait, when has it become necessary for a story to telegraph its plot in advance for the audiance? Was it required for ME1 to tell us Soveriegn was a Reaper before we talked to it? Should we have known Saren was indoctrinated before Vermire/Noveria? Should KoTOR 1 began with big flashing letters on the screen "BY THE WAY, SO YOU ARE NOT CONFUSED AT THE HINTS WE ARE DROPPING YOU DURING THE GAME, YOU ARE REVAN".

You're speaking nonsence. The player assumes the role of Shepard. We, as the audiance, are not all-knowing god figures who know how everything works in the story. Things are revealed to us as Shepard learns them. And, as has been pointed out in this thread, the hints are all in the story. It's not like Bioware hasn't been giving a nudge and a wink on this one.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 02 mars 2010 - 02:47 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

silentstephi wrote...
That's why I said some sort of low level or if you want, low intensity.  Hell, for all we know it's not Indocrination as we know it, but the Reapers have become experts at forging the ways organics progress techniclogicly for millions of years.  That the Cidatel would have some sort of complacency aura or program or what have you built into it makes a whole hell of a lot of sense, especially since it's _always_ made into the center of the galactic community.

Exactly. It's no coincidence that the Reapers choose the Citadel as the place to emerge from and eat up first. The place seems to be designed so that it attracts organics there and makes them think it would be a great place to found their galactic capitol. Plus, there has to be some rational explanation for them having not really learned anything about the Citadel or Keepers since they've lived there for the past several thousand years. And not only have they not really learned anything about it, they actively prohibit people from tampering with the Keepers to learn anything about them.

[Computron2000]

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Found it now, the planet in question was Ekuna in the Salahiel System in the Phoenix Massing Cluster.  Here's some screenshots I took, right-click and select view image for a full-size version (taken in 1920x1200 resolution):

Thanks, the description does show the council to be lacking in compassion as well as respect of pioneering rights, not to mention pretty hardline on punishment (bombardment?) :\\

[Nightwriter]

Never caught that thing about Ekuna. Great. The Council screwed the quarians.



Cerberus is corrupt. The Alliance bailed on me. The Council are shaping up to be pricks. There's no one to trust. No good guys. *Sigh*

[FlintlockJazz]

Nightwriter wrote...

Never caught that thing about Ekuna. Great. The Council screwed the quarians.

Cerberus is corrupt. The Alliance bailed on me. The Council are shaping up to be pricks. There's no one to trust. No good guys. *Sigh*

There's one good guy, there is...the Shepard!  *Cue the wearing of sunglasses as Heroic Music plays in the background*

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nightwriter wrote...

Never caught that thing about Ekuna. Great. The Council screwed the quarians.

Cerberus is corrupt. The Alliance bailed on me. The Council are shaping up to be pricks. There's no one to trust. No good guys. *Sigh*

classic sense of isolation that comes at the end of many second acts. With no one else to trust, you learn to trust yourself.

FlintlockJazz wrote...
There's one good guy, there is...the Shepard!  *Cue the wearing of
sunglasses as Heroic Music plays in the background*

*explosions everywhere in the background*

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 02 mars 2010 - 09:54 .