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[Tyrax Lightning]

HDMI Info for any who need it.

I'm hoping to learn more about HDMI, for i'm seriously considering using it in my next puder build after it's done. (For both my PC to Monitor Connection, & a future PS3 to Monitor Connection to the same Monitor.)

During my research, i've spotted others having trouble with HDMI puder force powers as well. So maybe this Thread can also spread HDMI Info awareness as well. Some highlights of importance:

1: It seems like HDMI Cables are a populat item for Business People to commit Highway Robbery with. I found a spiffy-lookin HDMI Cable on NewEgg I think i'll use in my upgrades, the Nippon Labs Premium High Performance HDMI Cable v1.3 3 ft. HDMI TO HDMI Cable A/V Gold Plated for 1080P cable HDTV Cable PS3 Cable and Xbox 360 Cable, which is about $8ish bucks, has good Specification Info, & has the optimum length for my future setup. Highway Robbers are capable of charging FIERCE prices, like up to $90 bucks, for this kinda Cable, only for it to have little to no better performance compared to this one! Beware of HDMI Cable Highway Robbery!

2: I'm not yet fully sure about this, but i've found Intel that there is a minor bugger about HDMI Cables that HDMI Connection using stuff can have various Frequency Ranges, & there are occasional instances of HDMI items being connected to each other, & their Frequence Ranges can be non-compatible with each other, thus preventing use. It's only occasional, but it can be fearsomely hard to avoid this before it's too late. When this happens, you can be stuck having to use an alternate connection method to hook up the devices, like DVI.

I can use more info on this if anyone has any.

3: HDMI & DVI are so similar to each other, that they're only seriously different in the respect that HDMI carries video & audio at the same time, whereas DVI carries only video & the audio warrants a seperate cable. HDMI & DVI can be adapted to each other without any conversion device.

4: HDMI is a Digital Signal connection type. It can also be used for DTV & HDTV.

I would love to learn more about HDMI than this! I hope many others would as well. HDMI may become the future standard connection type for future TVs & puders, so we should savvy up on it. Let the discussion commence!

Modifié par Tyrax Lightning, 01 mars 2010 - 06:26 .

[orpheus333]

I'm not sure 3 is completely true I have a HTPC connect with a DVI to HDMI cable to our living room. We get full digital audio through the TVs sound system.

[Tyrax Lightning]

andyr1986 wrote...

I'm not sure 3 is completely true I have a HTPC connect with a DVI to HDMI cable to our living room. We get full digital audio through the TVs sound system.

'full digital audio through the TVs sound system' as in without a seperate Audio Cable(s) hookup?

[orpheus333]

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

andyr1986 wrote...

I'm not sure 3 is completely true I have a HTPC connect with a DVI to HDMI cable to our living room. We get full digital audio through the TVs sound system.

'full digital audio through the TVs sound system' as in without a seperate Audio Cable(s) hookup?

Yep theres devinatly audio coming through the DVI out. I run Ubuntu and XBMC on my HTPC and i can definatly turn realtek digital output on and off, which seems to output through the DVI. I have no other connections other than the analog outs to a 5.1 system but thats turned off at the moment.

[Statulos]

This past Christmas I gave my mother a 24" LG amazing screen for the pc. The best part is that it has DVI, DSUB and HDMI plugs.



Well, till that moment we had been using analog plugs (DSUB) and then we switched to digital. Truth be told, the quality of the image improved a lot but I cannot see difference between HDMI and DVI. Is this normal or my eyes are flawed?

[Tyrax Lightning]

andyr1986 wrote...

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

andyr1986 wrote...

I'm not sure 3 is completely true I have a HTPC connect with a DVI to HDMI cable to our living room. We get full digital audio through the TVs sound system.

'full digital audio through the TVs sound system' as in without a seperate Audio Cable(s) hookup?

Yep theres devinatly audio coming through the DVI out. I run Ubuntu and XBMC on my HTPC and i can definatly turn realtek digital output on and off, which seems to output through the DVI. I have no other connections other than the analog outs to a 5.1 system but thats turned off at the moment.

Interesting. I wonder if theres such a thing as a HDMI to DVI Adapter that somehow transfers the Audio? See? HDMI Intel goodness!

Statulos wrote...

This past Christmas I gave my mother a
24" LG amazing screen for the pc. The best part is that it has DVI, DSUB
and HDMI plugs.

Well, till that moment we had been using analog
plugs (DSUB) and then we switched to digital. Truth be told, the quality
of the image improved a lot but I cannot see difference between HDMI
and DVI. Is this normal or my eyes are flawed?

I've read that HDMI & DVI use the same electrical signals & such, & thus are the same in Video power, but HDMI has the Audio inbuilt to the same Cable, whereas DVI is supposed to have to have a seperate Cable hook-up for the Audio & the DVI Cable only connects Video. Then again, andyr1986 may have proved this wrong...

That's cool for your 24" LG to be serving you well! After I get my new puder built, & I get my funds recharged enough for it, i'm eyeballing this Monitor upgrade:

SAMSUNG TOC T260HD Rose Black 25.5" 5ms HDMI Widescreen HDTV Monitor 300 cd/m2 DC 10000:1(1000:1) Build in TV Tuner & Dolby Digital Surround Sound

This one has 2 HDMI Ports, one for the PC, one for a hopeful next Xmas PS3.

Modifié par Tyrax Lightning, 01 mars 2010 - 11:56 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

I looked up some DVI info & discovered that there's some kinda patch thing available for DVI connections to make Audio work on a DVI connection. Perhaps that's how you're getting your DVI Audio, andyr1986.

[Goth Skunk]

http://en.wikipedia....isual_Interface



Audio via DVI cable is not possible. Period.

[Statulos]

I´m a sound fanatic and my desktop pc (now used by my mother) is plugged to a Denon amplifier with a 5.1 speaker system.



For that, HDMI is basicaly useless since there are optic devices to take the sound signal from the DVD or PC to the amplifier.

[Tyrax Lightning]

Goth Skunk wrote...

http://en.wikipedia....isual_Interface

Audio
via DVI cable is not possible. Period.

That link & my Link in the Post before ya are the same Site. What say ya to this Paragraph from that very Link?

"DVI to HDMI
DVI is mostly compatible with HDMI (see Compatibility with DVI). The main difference is that DVI typically carries no audio data in its TMDS channel, although increasingly, modern PC video hardware is providing audio (e.g. cards by NVIDIA[2] and ATI[3]), allowing the PC to send audiovisual data to a high definition television with an HDMI input. If a PC's DVI output does not provide audio, it can be patched in as part of the DVI to HDMI adapter."

(Full credit for the above Paragraph of info goes to Wikipedia.)

This suggests to me that DVI can get Audio from a DVI to HDMI Adapter, but not DVI to DVI. But not fully sure. I woulda appreciated it if the Article had given more specifics on that.

Statulos wrote...

I´m a sound fanatic and my desktop pc (now used by my mother) is plugged to a Denon amplifier with a 5.1 speaker system.

For that, HDMI is basicaly useless since there are optic devices to take the sound signal from the DVD or PC to the amplifier.

Do ya have info &/or experience with HDMI Audio? I'm interested in it.

Modifié par Tyrax Lightning, 02 mars 2010 - 09:10 .

[Statulos]

The problem with audio is that in the end it will always be analog because speakers are just that.



Another issue is the final quality will be the maximum quality of the worst component and generaly the cable to the speakers is that component.



My experience is basicaly the one of plugging a DVD to a TV via HDMI. It´s handy because it saves a toooon cables but well, it will not be near the quality you can get out of a 5.1 system.

[Tyrax Lightning]

Statulos wrote...

The problem with audio is that in the end it will always be analog because speakers are just that.

Another issue is the final quality will be the maximum quality of the worst component and generaly the cable to the speakers is that component.

My experience is basicaly the one of plugging a DVD to a TV via HDMI. It´s handy because it saves a toooon cables but well, it will not be near the quality you can get out of a 5.1 system.

That's odd. My research says that HDMI transmits Digital Audio, not Analog Audio. I dunno if Analog Audio can even work correctly on a HDMI connection.

For my future setup, i'm gonna have a HDMI connection from Monitor (with integrated speakers) to my PC Graphics Card, & another HDMI connection from Monitor to a future PS3. THe HDMI Audio power might be of more use to me. Perhaps HDMI is better on some stuff, & worse on others? (Lucky for me I don't need stellar sound, just ok at least. I'll be on Headphones the majority of the time.)

Edit: Corrected a proofreading failure.

Modifié par Tyrax Lightning, 20 mars 2010 - 03:38 .

[Statulos]

The signal in this case is irrelevant since the final effect will be sound going through your speakers. The soundwaves your ears (and mine, and everyone else´s) percive are analog and no matter what the signal is, it will be converted to such due to speaker´s nature.



But for comparison purposes, I have found no real difference between an optic cable and HDMI sound.

[Tyrax Lightning]

Statulos wrote...

The signal in this case is irrelevant since the final effect will be sound going through your speakers. The soundwaves your ears (and mine, and everyone else´s) percive are analog and no matter what the signal is, it will be converted to such due to speaker´s nature.

But for comparison purposes, I have found no real difference between an optic cable and HDMI sound.

Many thanks for the info! Figures, fat lotta good HDMI's Digital Audio is if it'll still be constrained by the Speakers.

The Monitor i'm eyeballing says it has 'Dolby Digital Surround Sound'. Do I dare to hope this could mean Digital Audio from the Integrated Speakers?

Lastly, I wonder how much sound quality matters anyway, for how fine-tuned a hearing instrument are Human Ears anyway?

[Statulos]

Human earing capacity can be absolutely amazing, even to the point of tunning milimetricaly an instrument such as a violin. For that, you need to train and a lot of experience, and I don´t think that is our case; but we can make an analogy with surgery and the difference between using a scalpel and a broadsword.



Cables are just the "delivery boy". While the classic RCA connectors may be equated with a cart and an optic SPDIF or a HDMI can be equated with a maglev train; both deliver the same signal. The difference is how fast and effectively (noise free) they do so.



That being said, Dolby, DTS, THX and others are just encoding standards; arrangement of the signal, if you may. Do not expect a two speaker system to deliver the same effect 5 speakers and a subwoofer will because it´s evidently impossible even if the sound those two speakers are reciving is enconded in a particular way and brouth through Skynet technology.



If you want to arrange a fair test, use the same devices and change the cables. Examples? Get a console and deliver the sound by means of RCA cables (the classic red and white ones); then, send the same signal by means of an HDMI or an optical SPDIF and compare.



If you want amazing, ground shaking sound, you should invest in a propper A/V receiver and a set of good speakers and oxygen free wires for them.



For a number of years I used some nice Cambridge Soundworks speakers till I got my current KEF ones and the difference was simply astonishing.

[Tyrax Lightning]

Many thanks again! I guess Integrated Speakers have a lot of catch up to do to 5+ Speaker systems. I guess I really am a lucky bugger to be in a position to be able to lean heavily on Headphone use.

[Tyrax Lightning]

Found some more useful info: Digital audio - Wikipedia

So, it appears that maybe there is indeed only 'Analog Sound' alone, & 'Digital' is only an alternate transmission method that's more resistant to interference. I've discovered that there's 'digital wireless headphones', but I assume with this new info & the above wisdom that 'digital' headphones will likely only be harder to interfere with, rather than more powerful in sound quality?

[MaaZeus]

HDMI transfers signal in digital format, a pulse signal which is almost completely immune to noise and whatever errors outside interference can case, because such interference is analog and is therefore completely ignored by the receiver as long as it doesnt cut the signal completely, and then you have bigger problems than mere sound or videoquality degrade. So yes, "high-end" HDMI and USB and SPDIF (be it optical or RCA based) are load of crap. However, SPDIF signal has its own problem, jitter, which can cause change in the signal. This can be fixed by the receiver however, and even if not it is HIGHLY debatable if it causes ANY audible changes, if any change what so ever. Its measurable, but IIRC way below audibility.

All digital audio signal has to be turned to analog by the DAC in your audiosystem so you can play it out from your speakers. There are differences in how accurately DAC can turn the digital signal to analog, and this is the reason why soundquality changes when you compare analog and digital output differences of your source. In many systems (in this case videogame console or DVD player) the DAC circuit is often inferior compared to high-end external and dedicated DAC, or even integrated DAC found in many 5.1 amplifiers.
Back to the outside interference. After change to analog signal is suspectible to outside interference, but again it is quite debatable if there is any audible difference. There has been no measurable proof if different analog cables change the sound to direction or another, as long as they are atleast acceptable quality (which any cheap cable is. And many audiophiles have been fooled in DBT when comparing normal cable to mere metal coathanger used on transferring the sound).
So unless you are building highend audiophile speaker rig in acoustically treated room, or extremely good headphone rig, analog cables are the last thing I would be worried about.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 20 mars 2010 - 06:32 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

MaaZeus wrote...

HDMI transfers signal in digital format, a pulse signal which is almost completely immune to noise and whatever errors outside interference can case, because such interference is analog and is therefore completely ignored by the receiver as long as it doesnt cut the signal completely, and then you have bigger problems than mere sound or videoquality degrade. So yes, "high-end" HDMI and USB and SPDIF (be it optical or RCA based) are load of crap. However, SPDIF signal has its own problem, jitter, which can cause change in the signal. This can be fixed by the receiver however, and even if not it is HIGHLY debatable if it causes ANY audible changes, if any change what so ever. Its measurable, but IIRC way below audibility.

All digital audio signal has to be turned to analog by the DAC in your audiosystem so you can play it out from your speakers. There are differences in how accurately DAC can turn the digital signal to analog, and this is the reason why soundquality changes when you compare analog and digital output differences of your source. In many systems (in this case videogame console or DVD player) the DAC circuit is often inferior compared to high-end external and dedicated DAC, or even integrated DAC found in many 5.1 amplifiers.
Back to the outside interference. After change to analog signal is suspectible to outside interference, but again it is quite debatable if there is any audible difference. There has been no measurable proof if different analog cables change the sound to direction or another, as long as they are atleast acceptable quality (which any cheap cable is. And many audiophiles have been fooled in DBT when comparing normal cable to mere metal coathanger used on transferring the sound).
So unless you are building highend audiophile speaker rig in acoustically treated room, or extremely good headphone rig, analog cables are the last thing I would be worried about.

I'm very glad i'm not an audiophile. Normal sound can be good enough for me.

I already uncovered research about high-price cables being highway robbery that doesn't do any better than normal price cables. I already did my shopping for HDMI cables & found one that can work for future needs: Nippon Labs Premium High Performance HDMI Cable v1.3 3 ft. HDMI TO HDMI Cable A/V Gold Plated for 1080P cable HDTV Cable PS3 Cable and Xbox 360 Cable. $9 bucks. There's pukes out there charging $50-$90 for cables that do no better than this one. I know to avoid them. Score one for Research!

Funny ya mention the Coat Hanger test. That came up in my research. Tests were done to compare those ripoff $90 cables to coat hangers in quality, & both did the same job, thus proving that the sellers of the $50-$90 cables, including the 'Monster Cable' brand, are a pack of thieves.

It's still looking unclear whether 'analog' audio or 'digital' audio is the better sound. Or are they about the same?

[MaaZeus]

It's still looking unclear whether 'analog' audio or 'digital' audio is the better sound. Or are they about the same?

That depends. As I said, all digital signal must be converted to analog so you can hear sound. Digital signal is just pulse, a row of 101010101. Digital signal is information, data, and not music nor picture or whatever. It must be converted to analog wave, which then can be amplified and then played out of speakers or headphones.

Which is better, digital or analog, depends solely on the source. If you have some high-end DVD or CD player, it will probaply have very good quality DAC (digital-to-analog converter) built-in, so analog connection to your amplifier is good enough. In stereo or Dolby Prologic sources that is, if you want true 5.1 or higher, you must have one RCA for each channel, and you have recipe for cable spaghetti there, if the source has all those connections in the first place... Using single digital connection is therefore preferred.

On cheap and mediocre sources, DAC circuit is often very simple and mediocre and therefore digital output (be it separate SPDIF port or through HDMI) to external dedicated DAC or amplifier with better DAC built-in is much better choice in quality.


All in all, my point is that digital transfer and analog transfer cannot be compared directly. As a transfer methor digital is superior, but it must be converted to analog at some point to be any use for audio purposes, cuz as I said before conversion digital signal is just information. Im not sure how video signal is handled though. For that digital is always considered superior anyway.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 21 mars 2010 - 02:12 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

Many thanks for the info! This has helped a lot!