57 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

You can mediate with the merchant and the towns people. He lowers his prices a bit and they stop complaining. Morrigan complains. Morrigan always complains.

[Nauthiz84]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That merchant in Lothering is, I think, less well done.

I can see why someone might choose to help the merchant - it's his stuff, and he's allowed to sell it at whatever price he wants.

And I can see why someone might choose to kill him and let the villagers have his inventory. Though this option isn't actually available in the game.

No, if you don't help the merchant, your only other available action is to rive him out of town, and that doesn't benefit anyone. It harms the merchant, because he's no longer allowed to sell to desperate consumers, but it also harms the consumers, because they're no longer allowed to buy what they can afford. No one benefits from driving the merchant out of town.

That one I just don't understand.

Actually it is possible to convince him to sell his stuff for a reasonable price without ripping off the refugees.

[IanPolaris]

Guys,



Having done it both ways now, you should always save the villiage IMHO even if you are evil. If you do not, not only do you lose a truck-load of XP for not defending the villiage (and for pure win you get XP for slaughting the militia too) but you ALSO don't get at least two chantry board quests and you don't get a blackstone irregulars quest which means you can't complete either of these quest lines which means less money and less XP.



If you save the villiage, you get a chantry board, mage's collective, and blackstone post in town. If you don't you get bupkis.



-Polaris

[DJ0000]

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

Having done it both ways now, you should always save the villiage IMHO even if you are evil. If you do not, not only do you lose a truck-load of XP for not defending the villiage (and for pure win you get XP for slaughting the militia too) but you ALSO don't get at least two chantry board quests and you don't get a blackstone irregulars quest which means you can't complete either of these quest lines which means less money and less XP.

If you save the villiage, you get a chantry board, mage's collective, and blackstone post in town. If you don't you get bupkis.

-Polaris

 
RP purists don't really like this kind of logic though.

From a purely RP'ing point of view I think that an evil charecter can help Redcliff for the simple reason that the Arl didn't seem to have  particularly close relationship with Alistair and it was unclear at that point what side he would choose. Therefore, helping the village would definately gain some support from the Arl.

Also, even if the Arl did end up being dead, Bann Teagan would surely offer his support for the effort you put into helping the village.

Finally, helping the viallage may earn you some respect as people hear of your good deed which would obviously be good as Loghain is a hero to must try to gain allies wherever possible who can tell others of your heroic efforts.

[JosieJ]

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

Having done it both ways now, you should always save the villiage IMHO even if you are evil. If you do not, not only do you lose a truck-load of XP for not defending the villiage (and for pure win you get XP for slaughting the militia too) but you ALSO don't get at least two chantry board quests and you don't get a blackstone irregulars quest which means you can't complete either of these quest lines which means less money and less XP.

If you save the villiage, you get a chantry board, mage's collective, and blackstone post in town. If you don't you get bupkis.

-Polaris

Actually, all those groups have posts elsewhere, and all quests can be completed if you do it correctly.

I think there are good RP reasons both to save and not to save Redcliffe.  As people have stated, you can skip saving Redcliffe because it doesn't have anything to do with your primary goal, or you can save it hoping that it will get you in the good graces of Arl Eamon (or Bann Teagan if the arl dies).  I think both are valid.

Modifié par JosieJ, 03 mars 2010 - 12:10 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

You can mediate with the merchant and the towns people. He lowers his prices a bit and they stop complaining. Morrigan complains. Morrigan always complains.

I didn't know that, but I don't really see how that could be a desired outcome, either.  Unless you value people getting along as an end in itself (children's television in the 1980's actively promoted that), I don't see how any set of values leads to that as a desired outcome.

Either you think he's entitled to his property because it's his, or you think the town is entitled to his property because they need it.

Convincing the merchant to sell the goods at lower prices benefits the townsfolk who couldn't afford his goods before, but it disadvantages both the merchant and the people who could afford his goods (effectively negating their good planning that lead them to being in a position to buy).  That's a much harder set of outcomes to justify.

[the_one_54321]

You gain because you can then buy goods from the merchant where you otherwise couldn't. But it's not really a matter of doing it for gain. It's a matter of getting caught up in an argument that isn't yours. You trigger by walking by, as though you happened to be walking by and then got involved in real life. Then Morrigan complains even though it doesn't affect her at all.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

Having done it both ways now, you should always save the villiage IMHO even if you are evil. If you do not, not only do you lose a truck-load of XP for not defending the villiage (and for pure win you get XP for slaughting the militia too) but you ALSO don't get at least two chantry board quests and you don't get a blackstone irregulars quest which means you can't complete either of these quest lines which means less money and less XP.

If you save the villiage, you get a chantry board, mage's collective, and blackstone post in town. If you don't you get bupkis.

-Polaris

I didn't know it was possible to skip Redcliffe village. Sure, if you leave the guy at the entrance whines, but when I did that and came back, the village was still there waiting for the attack.

Do you have to leave and finish another plot line, like the mage tower before coming back?

If you lose the village, you can go straight to the castle to rescue the Arl? I assume you have to do this anyway to finish the game. Do the people in the castle mention the destruction of the village?

BTW you also can't finish Stens personal quest, unless you had it almost finished before going to Redcliffe.

[Pahldus]

Shinian2 wrote...

I didn't know it was possible to skip Redcliffe village. Sure, if you leave the guy at the entrance whines, but when I did that and came back, the village was still there waiting for the attack.

Do you have to leave and finish another plot line, like the mage tower before coming back?

If you lose the village, you can go straight to the castle to rescue the Arl? I assume you have to do this anyway to finish the game. Do the people in the castle mention the destruction of the village?

BTW you also can't finish Stens personal quest, unless you had it almost finished before going to Redcliffe.

Actually you can still finish Stens personal quest as the chest with the sword will appear even if Dwyn is dead.

[Realmzmaster]

There are certain quests that are tied to Redcliffe. For example, if you do the summoning sciences quest in the mage tower, the quest for Trickster Whim (Unintended Consequences) only occurs on the Redcliffe Chantry board. Also the quests Caravan Down, Brothers & Sons, Skin Deep and Deserate Haven only occur on the Chantry Board in Redcliffe.

[TBastian]

There are also smart reasons for saving Redcliffe. Alistair mentions that the Arl of Redcliffe is not only powerful, but one of the most influential. Alistair even mentions that the Arl is related to the King Cailan. Ergo, the Arl is your only key to gaining the support of the humans of Ferelden short of confronting Loghain directly yourself. You already know the extent of Loghain's personal and political power. You decide. It's less a matter of how good or evil your PC is, it's about what your priorities are.

If the Warden kept heeding Sten's advice he would've probably disdained the help of all the "lesser" races and taken on the Blight head-on.

Modifié par TBastian, 03 mars 2010 - 05:54 .

[IanPolaris]

Realmzmaster wrote...

There are certain quests that are tied to Redcliffe. For example, if you do the summoning sciences quest in the mage tower, the quest for Trickster Whim (Unintended Consequences) only occurs on the Redcliffe Chantry board. Also the quests Caravan Down, Brothers & Sons, Skin Deep and Deserate Haven only occur on the Chantry Board in Redcliffe.

Absolutely correct.  In addition, "Grease the Wheels" for the Blackstone irregulars is also tied to Redcliff and only to Redcliff.  That means you not only miss out on that quest but also on "Change in Leadership".

All and all even if you are evil you need to defend Redcliff or you wind up taking it in the shorts in both lost experience and potential treasure (such as the loss of the Boots of Diligence for one).

Even for evil characters it's easy enough to justify.  It is likely that Bann Teagan is the new Arl of Redcliff given what we know and we NEED Redcliff forces for our army.  Walk away and you run the risk of having the entire Arl left in smoking ruins and as Alistair correctly notes, the Grey Wardens simply can not afford that.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

JosieJ wrote...

[Actually, all those groups have posts elsewhere, and all quests can be completed if you do it correctly.

They do have posts elsewhere, but you can not complete all the Chanters Board and Blackstone quests if you don't defend Redcliff.  As was already noted, some quests ONLY show up at Redcliff.

-Polaris

[Nauthiz84]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
...
Either you think he's entitled to his property because it's his, or you think the town is entitled to his property because they need it.
...

There is no doubt about him being entitled to his property because it's his, but taking advantage of the refugees desperate situation by demanding outrageous prices so they have no money left to flee isn't exactly nice.
You just mediate prices that are acceptable for both sides, preventing uproar and possible murder by doing so.
Having a smaler profit margin is better than getting lynched.

[IanPolaris]

Nauthiz84 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
...
Either you think he's entitled to his property because it's his, or you think the town is entitled to his property because they need it.
...

There is no doubt about him being entitled to his property because it's his, but taking advantage of the refugees desperate situation by demanding outrageous prices so they have no money left to flee isn't exactly nice.
You just mediate prices that are acceptable for both sides, preventing uproar and possible murder by doing so.
Having a smaler profit margin is better than getting lynched.

I always side with the merchant.  It's an easy sovereign early in the game when you need money badly (so you can buy a spell/talent book from Bodan Fedic the first time you camp before that option goes away).  The disapprove from Alistair is very minor (-3) and nothing bad happens otherwise.

-Polaris

[Kryyptehk]

IanPolaris wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

There are certain quests that are tied to Redcliffe. For example, if you do the summoning sciences quest in the mage tower, the quest for Trickster Whim (Unintended Consequences) only occurs on the Redcliffe Chantry board. Also the quests Caravan Down, Brothers & Sons, Skin Deep and Deserate Haven only occur on the Chantry Board in Redcliffe.

-Polaris

Actually, you get Skin Deep from Denerim.

[Realmzmaster]

Actually Skin Deep occurs on both Redcliffe and Denerim Chanter's boards.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Nauthiz84 wrote...

There is no doubt about him being entitled to his property because it's his, but taking advantage of the refugees desperate situation by demanding outrageous prices so they have no money left to flee isn't exactly nice.
You just mediate prices that are acceptable for both sides, preventing uproar and possible murder by doing so.
Having a smaler profit margin is better than getting lynched.

But it's his choice to make.

I don't see a principled approach that leads to that outcome.

I did try to kill him once so I could redistribute his goods, but he just left town.

[IanPolaris]

Kryyptehk wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

There are certain quests that are tied to Redcliffe. For example, if you do the summoning sciences quest in the mage tower, the quest for Trickster Whim (Unintended Consequences) only occurs on the Redcliffe Chantry board. Also the quests Caravan Down, Brothers & Sons, Skin Deep and Deserate Haven only occur on the Chantry Board in Redcliffe.

-Polaris

Actually, you get Skin Deep from Denerim.

I looked over my save files from my "evil" game and you're right.  I did get Skin Deep in Denermin so I stand corrected.  All the others though only occure in Redcliff so my overall point stands about losing valuable quests and thus valuable XP.  You also as I said don't get "Grease the Wheels" unless you save Redcliff.

-Polaris

[KragCulloden]

I think the argument that "its not important" doesn't fit with a real sense of role playing, in that the forces of an arl would be nothing to scoff at - you're not "getting" the reality of a nobility/feudal politic if you think ignoring a quasi-Duke fiefdom's military contribution is sound planning.



I thought Sten was just comic relief, not an opposing viewpoint - he is a moron. His idea of a sound plan is marching into the horde and hoping for a lucky blow against the archdemon - he says as much in one of his conversations ("...if we win it will be through chance alone and your preparations will be of no consequence" or something). "Hope" and "Luck" are generally not the basis for sound strategic planning. Sten's a buffoon.



Every one of the main quest checklist items could be reasoned away as irrelevent, but that doesn't make it a smart move to skip them. You are gaining military forces to enable the wardens to survive the numbers and actually reach the archdemon - without sheer numbers the wardens stand little hope of success. So fighting through a mass of zombies (and later a ruin of cultists) to secure an arl's military aid is a pretty sound plan, in my opinion.

[KragCulloden]

Just to clarify -the two surviving wardens are told near the beginning, by Flemeth, that they will need allies and numbers to succeed - so there is no metagaming in this particular regard - they need masses of troops to counter the horde's numbers to enable the wardens to reach the archdemon.

[KragCulloden]

Convincing the merchant to sell the goods at lower prices benefits the townsfolk who couldn't afford his goods before, but it disadvantages both the merchant and the people who could afford his goods (effectively negating their good planning that lead them to being in a position to buy). That's a much harder set of outcomes to justify.

Just for hoots I'll add my two bits - in my view capitalism is a system that works great in stability but has no place in extremis. In situations of a disaster nature, there is no such thing as "good planning" - everyones' lot is determined almost entirely at random through forces of nature or war...and in extremis I believe the morally correct option is the communal view - doing the most to keep the largest number of survivors alive.



In our age its called martial law, call it whatever you want - but its a recognition that in times of life and death situations, property rights are secondary to survival of the group as a whole. The "group" meaning whoever survived the initial disaster and is still standing. So the best solution IMO is to have the templars confiscate all the goods from all the merchants (and whatever other stockpiles exist) and dispense then as needed until the crisis has passed. Once normalcy is again achieved, then capitalism returns in all its wealth-creating glory (hopefully).

[Shadvox]

I don't mind saving the village because even from a RP stand it's a chance for a very young recruit to gain skills/experience. Not just fighting, but in combat in different situations because you will eventually enter a time when there are troops around you that need managing beyond 'four'. Not micro-gaming because you DO know you are trying to build an army after all. Learning the basics about troop moral boosting and discovering resources from supplies to extra bodies to help fight also happens here.



No, what I mind is having to save Eamon's butt because I do NOT like him at all. Oh yes, he's the one wants the power, but is subtle, a director behind the scenes. Forgetting how Alistair was treated, his opinionated comments that make him just a male Wynne, there is one line of his that goes like "You have no idea what it is like being a vassal in your own lands, those perfumed, poncy Orleisian's running about..."

Ahem, excuse me Eamon the Human, do you see these 'pointy knife-ears' on 'one of my kind' you happen to be speaking to? (Because you have to speak to. Oh, the indignity!) Do you know how many elves are 'servants' in YOUR castle constantly expecting to be whipped by someone? Lets talk some recompense for the ones your son sliced the ears off of to feed the dogs, shall we? No? Well what's your opinion on the racial slurs and comments given to the one who saved your family from everyone in this entire stinking land from your wife on down? The human nobles and commoners out there who don't mind torturing and raping elves for sport? These ones you stole their lands plus from? None of that sounds even vaguely familiar to you, Eamon...?

Come on, Zev, Sten and Dog, let's head to Orlais where they've got veteran Wardens up the wazu and some human there can have their soul destroyed for this muddy place if they want. The Dalish can keep on moving, they'll be fine. Oh, Teagan, you can come too since while standing in the middle of a chantry in public YOU had no problems contemplating marriage to an elf, her having 'noble house and blood' or not be darned. Not that it's going to happen, but boldness in another thing people in this land sorely lack so you're worth saving just for that.

[Freezingfire]

or by siding with the elves or werewolves

Yes, but that risk was necessary.

Buh? There are other Dalish, what does it matter if one falls(you go out of the way to do a quest for a Dalish clan even if you're *supposedly* strained by time).
Then again I agree with the person who said that the main quest was not all that great. It's extremely odd, you have that much time to actually gather all those allies, in the meantime you could've gone to Orlais and get those Chevaliers and Grey Wardens.

Modifié par Freezingfire, 04 mars 2010 - 04:35 .

[Shador5529]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Nauthiz84 wrote...

There is no doubt about him being entitled to his property because it's his, but taking advantage of the refugees desperate situation by demanding outrageous prices so they have no money left to flee isn't exactly nice.
You just mediate prices that are acceptable for both sides, preventing uproar and possible murder by doing so.
Having a smaler profit margin is better than getting lynched.

But it's his choice to make.

I don't see a principled approach that leads to that outcome.

I did try to kill him once so I could redistribute his goods, but he just left town.

Actually, you can kill him.  I have done so.  I don't recall any disapproval (though I suspect there was some from Alistair).  The sister and the townsfolk scatter in panic, saying you are crazy.