57 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

KragCulloden wrote...

Every one of the main quest checklist items could be reasoned away as irrelevent, but that doesn't make it a smart move to skip them. You are gaining military forces to enable the wardens to survive the numbers and actually reach the archdemon - without sheer numbers the wardens stand little hope of success. So fighting through a mass of zombies (and later a ruin of cultists) to secure an arl's military aid is a pretty sound plan, in my opinion.

Except you don't have any reason to believe you will actually find aid there.  The Arl might be dead (so you're told in advance), and you don't have a treaty comeplling him to help you like you do with the others.

My first time through I left Redcliffe until last (because I had no treaty for Redcliffe), but I did save the town when I got there because it simply didn't occur to me not to.

My second time through I went to Redcliffe first (because Alistair knew more about human behaviour than my elf did) and I did not save the town, because there was still signficant urgency having just escaped Ostagar.

KragCulloden wrote...

Just for hoots I'll add my two bits - in my view capitalism is a system that works great in stability but has no place in extremis.

If property rights are a principle you value (as my first character did) then you value it under all circumstances.

In situations of a disaster nature, there is no such thing as "good planning" - everyones' lot is determined almost entirely at random through forces of nature or war.

Didn't you just make fun of Sten for holding this exact opinion?

and in extremis I believe the morally correct option is the communal view - doing the most to keep the largest number of survivors alive.

Don't you ever play characters whose opinions differ from yours?

Freezingfire wrote...

It's extremely odd, you have that much time to actually gather all those allies, in the meantime you could've gone to Orlais and get those Chevaliers and Grey Wardens.

Could you?  How long does it take to cross the Frostback Mountains to get to Orlais?

The game never tells us this.  The only information we have is that Alistair thinks it would take too long.  So why would we draw a conclusion that directly contradicts everything we've learned on the subject?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Shador5529 wrote...

Actually, you can kill him.  I have done so.  I don't recall any disapproval (though I suspect there was some from Alistair).  The sister and the townsfolk scatter in panic, saying you are crazy.

I just learned this myself.  Yes, you can kill him (though you can't then redistribute or take his goods).  That improves the quest in my eyes.

[KragCulloden]

Sylvius the Mad - trying reading a bit closer - your responses to my quotes don't make any sense. Your comparing Sten's remarks about preparations for war against the reality of disaster survivors having random bits of their lives that survived, and none of it due to their proepr or improper planning. That is a very large difference - but if you can't grasp it I'll elaborate a bit more.



Sten's position is that he knows who the enemy is, but doesn't believe any preparation will help or hinder his chances of success, because all of his success is based on chance and nothing else. That is idiocy, and also inconsistent - if he actually believed that he would never train his mind or body as a warrior, but instead just charge into battle and roll the dice of fate. Stupidity. The reality is that masses of troops are necessary just to enable the wardens to *reach* the archdemon, so as many allies as possible are requirement to enable that first part of the battle to succeed.



Regarding disaster "planning" - you make it sound like those that still had money to buy supplies were in that position because of their superior planning - and that is hogwash. Warfare and natural disasters are the epitome of randomness in terms of who lives and who dies inside their zone of destruction. To say that one survivor's house surived the tornado (and thus his possessions too) because of his proper planning is fallacy - its random, just as the aftereffects of societal breakdown following disasters are applied randomly to the survivors. Some of those refugees that may have lost everything when their house burned down - others left early and took what they could, but ran into highwaymen and lost everything of value except their lives, etc...by the time they reach Lothering it is a pure crapshoot as to who survived and what they managed to arrive with - planning had nothing to do with it.



RE: Property rights - you create a false dilemma - not only I, but society as a whole, agree that property rights are secondary to survival in times of disaster and crisis. We have it codified in various laws at national, state, and even local levels. So you are incorrect - I do value property rights, but its not an absolute in any sense of the word. As a moral question, my answer to the merchant issue stands unchanged.



Finally regarding "You don't know you'll find aid there" - you do because he is an arl (which I equate to a Duke in stature) whose forces were not at Ostagar and therefore were not destroyed. The king is dead, and the forces he already gathered, except for Loghains, were already destroyed. That means the only Fereldan military power left, that isn't already under Loghain's control, lies in the fiefdoms that weren't represented at Ostagar. So even if Eamon himself is dead, his forces still remain and would pass to his successor. Aside from the fact that there are substantional troops there, your group has a personal "in" as well through Alistair being raised as an adopted son. His relationships have value with more than just Eamon personally, as is seen when he meets the Redcliffe knight in Lothering and again when he meets Teagan. So you have two compelling reasons to seek the aid of the Redcliffe fiefdom/arling/whatever. Remember, its a feudal reality, - all these guys have significant power (in real military terms) that historically closely rivalled (or even far exceeded) those forces directly commanded by any king.

[Sylvius the Mad]

KragCulloden wrote...

Sten's position is that he knows who the enemy is, but doesn't believe any preparation will help or hinder his chances of success, because all of his success is based on chance and nothing else. That is idiocy, and also inconsistent - if he actually believed that he would never train his mind or body as a warrior,

No, you've misread Sten entirely.  Sten doesn't train as a warrior to improve his chances of success.  He trains as a warrior because he's a warrior and that's what warriors do.  Sten doesn't believe he has any choice in that.

The reality is that masses of troops are necessary just to enable the wardens to *reach* the archdemon, so as many allies as possible are requirement to enable that first part of the battle to succeed.

The details of the final battle aren't known to the Wardens at the time these decisions are being made.  They've can't be taken into account.

Regarding disaster "planning" - you make it sound like those that still had money to buy supplies were in that position because of their superior planning - and that is hogwash. Warfare and natural disasters are the epitome of randomness in terms of who lives and who dies inside their zone of destruction. To say that one survivor's house surived the tornado (and thus his possessions too) because of his proper planning is fallacy - its random, just as the aftereffects of societal breakdown following disasters are applied randomly to the survivors.

This isn't relevant to the merchant in Lothering.  We're specifically told that the merchant's customers are villagers - not refugees - from whom the bought his inventory the week prior.  So those villagers chose to sell their excess supplies rather than stockpile them for an emergency.

I live in an earthquake-prone area.  As such, I have a stockpile of 200 litres of water in my apartment.  I don't know anyone else who does such a thing, but I have because I don't want to have to rely on emergency water deliveries should the need arise.  At this point I could probably even do laundry.  Because I planned for it.

Finally regarding "You don't know you'll find aid there" - you do because he is an arl (which I equate to a Duke in stature) whose forces were not at Ostagar and therefore were not destroyed. The king is dead, and the forces he already gathered, except for Loghains, were already destroyed. That means the only Fereldan military power left, that isn't already under Loghain's control, lies in the fiefdoms that weren't represented at Ostagar. So even if Eamon himself is dead, his forces still remain and would pass to his successor

Not necessarily.  Once we arrive in Redcliffe, we see nothing but chaos and death.  Where are these mythical forces?  There are a bunch of undead pouring from the castle.  All the evidence provided tells us that any hope of aid here is just hope, and nothing more.

Aside from the fact that there are substantional troops there, your group has a personal "in" as well through Alistair being raised as an adopted son. His relationships have value with more than just Eamon personally, as is seen when he meets the Redcliffe knight in Lothering and again when he meets Teagan.

That they recognise him is not evidence that he has any pull.

[Realmzmaster]

Actually Sten says in one of your conversations, How will you reach the ArchDemon? He is surround by a sea of darkspawn. So right there the warden knows that an army will be needed to reach the ArchDemon. Even futher back Alistair talking to Flemeth says that in the past it took the Grey Wardens and most of the armies of the nations to defeat the Blight and ArchDemon.

So the warden knows he/she will need as many allies as possible and should leave no possible avenue for help unexplored.



Also Ser Perth the knight states that the mythical forces are returning to Redcliffe just as he did, because they were out searching for the urn. The forces exist, Ser Perth has put out a call for all the knights and soldiers to return.



The reason that the villagers had not done disaster planning was because at the time there was no disaster and a Blight had not happened in 400 years. Not exactly the type of disaster for which someone plans.

Also the villagers sold the goods to the merchant one week before the disaster at Ostagar took place. The villagers did not know about the disaster until Loghain and his forces marched back through Lothering from Ostagar.

So unless the villagers are foretellers they could not have knows that they would desparately need what they sold a week before.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Also Ser Perth the knight states that the mythical forces are returning to Redcliffe just as he did, because they were out searching for the urn.

A quest on which at least some of them died.  We saw that in Lothering.  Ser Donall even wonders how many managed to survive at all.

So that's not terribly comforting.

The reason that the villagers had not done disaster planning was because at the time there was no disaster and a Blight had not happened in 400 years. Not exactly the type of disaster for which someone plans.

Also the villagers sold the goods to the merchant one week before the disaster at Ostagar took place. The villagers did not know about the disaster until Loghain and his forces marched back through Lothering from Ostagar.

So unless the villagers are foretellers they could not have knows that they would desparately need what they sold a week before.

That's how emergency planning works.  You plan BEFORE the emergency.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 05 mars 2010 - 11:59 .

[Realmzmaster]

Emergency planning for something that has not happened in 400 years? Not unless all of them are psychic.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Emergency planning for something that has not happened in 400 years? Not unless all of them are psychic.

Right, because a blight is the only sort of emergency that might require them to pull up stakes and survive on their own.

This is effectively a medieval society.  Disease, or war, or drought, could easily disrupt these people's lives enough that they'd need to rely on their emergency reserves.  Why don't they have any?