32 réponses à ce sujet

[Highdragonslayer]

     There is no possible way to reason with Caridan at all which is a shame. Imo this is how the conversation should go:

Caridan: You must destroy the anvil of the void it's evil!

PC: ummm... you do realize that this would save more lives than it would enslave right?

Caridan: It's not worth it!

PC: The darkspawn are slowly killing the dwarves with each passing day, when the dwarven kingdoms are gone they will own the deeproads.

Caridan: I didn't think of it like that...

PC: This will make it much easier for them to repopulate, and find Arch demons.

Caridan: Well but...

PC: If you came with me you'd know the horrors of being a golem, and would be able to make sure control rods would not be made elimanating the slavery part of being a golem. You wouldn't need apprentices since you live forever, golems and you would be highly respected for your sacrifice, and espiecally you because your a paragon and technically an ancestor.

Caridan:...

PC: On top of it all the dwarves would reclaim land, and you could help me beat the blight!

Caridan:...

Caridan:...

Caridan: Alright just make sure the darkspawn don't destroy the anvil on the way back.

[Maria Caliban]

Caridan already knows that darkspawn are threatening the dwarves. The golems were created to fight the darkspawn in the first place.

[Caozen]

Caridan would've been amazing as a companion, come to think of it...

I don't know. It's kind of hard convincing someone who's been wallowing in their own guilt for centuries(?). Not only that, Branka wasn't having any of it at the time. Her sudden interjection didn't really help things.

[Highdragonslayer]

Caozen wrote...

Caridan would've been amazing as a companion, come to think of it...
I don't know. It's kind of hard convincing someone who's been wallowing in their own guilt for centuries(?). Not only that, Branka wasn't having any of it at the time. Her sudden interjection didn't really help things.

This conversion is assuming that Branka is dead. Also since he hasn't been outside of there in centuries he wouldn't see how bad of a sitation is really is, he would probibly be much more guilty, that he doomed the dwarves by denying them a way to beat the darkspawn.

Modifié par Highdragonslayer, 02 mars 2010 - 12:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Both Caridin and Branka lack common sense. Too bad for Caridin, helping Branka was more convenient and useful, at least for the short term.

[Malanek]

It's just a classic does the means justify the ends question. Or do you commit a lesser evil to defeat a bigger evil. There is no right or wrong answer to this IMO. Caridan has lived through it, was partly responsible for it, and it is right that you cannot sway him.



As an aside I liked the conversation between Oghren and Shale over whether it was right to destroy the anvil.

[le_cygne]

Caridin has seen firsthand the horrible costs of using golems to fight the darkspawn. To him, it isn't worth it.

Obviously that's not necessarily the "correct" position, but it's certainly a valid one, and it makes sense that someone showing up after hundreds of years isn't going to be able to convince him otherwise with two minutes of dialogue.

Modifié par le_cygne, 02 mars 2010 - 12:34 .

[Mirthadrond]

le_cygne wrote...

Caridin has seen firsthand the horrible costs of using golems to fight the darkspawn. To him, it isn't worth it.

Obviously that's not necessarily the "correct" position, but it's certainly a valid one, and it makes sense that someone showing up after hundreds of years isn't going to be able to convince him otherwise with two minutes of dialogue.

Well??  In all fairness - I convinced the Warden Blood Mage at Soldiers Peak, that his experiments where horrific, and he deserved death.
He'd been living for over 100 years, I believe??  Maybe longer??

After i drank his potion, and gleened whatever knowledge I could from him, he submitted, then I executed him.
I'm still not sure that was the 'right choice' - I might get even more blood taint power in future visits, if I let him live.

[Erucolindo]

He said himself that all of the dwarves that became Golems volunteered to do so. However, after years and years of watching/subjecting dwarves to the process, he could no longer do it. I can't say I blame him either.



Even for the sake of defeating the darkspawn, he was no longer willing to do it and he didn't want anyone else to do it either. He felt that it was ultimately wrong and he was well aware that they would be a great advantage against the darkspawn, but even then to him it's not worth it.



Besides, they can't be THAT effective. A whole freaking legion of Golems was sent into the Deep Roads and none...NONE returned

[xzxzxz701]

Erucolindo wrote...

He said himself that all of the dwarves that became Golems volunteered to do so. However, after years and years of watching/subjecting dwarves to the process, he could no longer do it. I can't say I blame him either.

Even for the sake of defeating the darkspawn, he was no longer willing to do it and he didn't want anyone else to do it either. He felt that it was ultimately wrong and he was well aware that they would be a great advantage against the darkspawn, but even then to him it's not worth it.

Besides, they can't be THAT effective. A whole freaking legion of Golems was sent into the Deep Roads and none...NONE returned

Their giant men made of stone and steel and can crush you with one hit, im pretty sure they are effective.

[Realmzmaster]

Unfortunately all the golems were not volunteers. The first group were volunteers, but after that the King started using his political enenies, the casteless etc. Caridin himself said that a river of blood flowed from the place until he said enough and refused to make more golems. The king ordered him to be turned into a golem.

So he has a first hand experience of power corrupting. Also golems without control rods? Not a good idea. Think about putting one of the castless (like jarvia) in golem form without a control rod. Even if you use new volunteers, think about one of them going insane with no rod to control them.

[Mry62]

That way you're a mile away AND you've got his moccasins...

[Meeeps]

if every golem could become like Shale, it would be a option, but Shale became what she is thanks to the experiments of her prior master mage.

[Bhryaen]

Even Shale- for all her golem superiority complex- eventually speaks of venturing to Tevinter itself to find a way to reverse the golem process and become a dwarf again, and her living memories remain mostly lost to her, even after visiting the Cadash Thaig. Caridin does speak of there being some way to let the subject retain their mind- something Caridin himself was able to manage due to apprentice ineptness at fashioning control rods- but they'd still face Shale's dilemma at some point, unable to feel or sense like the squishy. Caridin obviously feels enslaved, not empowered.

What Orzammar (and all of Ferelden) needs to overcome the darkspawn and beat them back unto extinction isn't tougher soldiers as much as unity against them. That's sort of the theme of DAO, no? Uniting the world against the blight despite its fractionated populations, bitter history of prejudices and oppression, and its current civil wars? It was narrow-minded squabbling over individual House and Thaig interests that eventually cost the dwarves the Deep Roads and the surrounds of Orzammar- not the might of darkspawn hordes- and they're still suffering that disunity at the end of the game regardless, though you can opt as a dwarf for the boon of having the surfacers join in dwarven efforts to beat back the darkspawn. (Sadly this option doesn't seem to arise for non-dwarves.) And then there's Leliana's quest to investigate the darkspawn to find out how to defeat them once and for all.

The darkspawn represent corruption left to fester. Unity against it works. Bigger war machines just present a different political landscape for corruption. Give the Anvil to Branka and either Bhelen or Harrowmont will demonstrate why that isn't the Ultimate Solution to the darkspawn...

[kalasaurus]

It sucked that I had to kill Caridin to give Branka a chance to redeem herself.

[Fallstar]

The anvil of the void represents one of the few feasible methods of the dwarves being able to successfully defend Orzammar and reclaim a significant number of the lost thaigs. I liked the dwarves on all of my characters so I couldn't take that hope away from them. I've never actually destroyed the anvil, just once for the achievement, which I reloaded.

[Son of Imoen]

Mry62 wrote...

That way you're a mile away AND you've got his moccasins...

an obscure sentence to necro a thread with?

[Lavaeolus]

Meeeps wrote...

if every golem could become like Shale, it would be a option, but Shale became what she is thanks to the experiments of her prior master mage.

It might even be due to the desire demon (Wilhelm thinks it's influencing her), which would make it an especially hard and dangerous thing to repeat.

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 05 juin 2013 - 11:13 .

[LobselVith8]

DuskWarden wrote...

The anvil of the void represents one of the few feasible methods of the dwarves being able to successfully defend Orzammar and reclaim a significant number of the lost thaigs. I liked the dwarves on all of my characters so I couldn't take that hope away from them. I've never actually destroyed the anvil, just once for the achievement, which I reloaded.

Pretty much. As Branka points out, the Avil of the Void allowed the dwarves to beat back the darkspawn and the first Archdemon Dumat, and it gave them a hundred years of peace until Caridin decided to seal it away from them - an action that lead to women being violated and people being eaten and killed by darkspawn. I don't see how letting the darkspawn destroy all of dwarven civilization was worth preventing the use of the Anvil. The process is certainly a horrible one, I don't deny that, but the darkspawn represent a far greater threat (not simply to the dwarves, but to all races on Thedas) and a more monstrous end than the Anvil.

[Bhryaen]

Except that enslaving people to golem form doesn't ultimately succeed and can and will be used for the opposite of dwarven interests: killing fellow dwarves in fratricidal conflict. Yes, the golem might was stopped by Caridin rather than golems being ineffective in a battle. But the central issue isn't that golems aren't powerful in a fight. The point is that the defection of a Caridin (you know, the guy who got the process going in the first place) is guaranteed at some point regardless: the people being enslaved to it aren't going to agree that they're better off as slaves than as broodmothers- either way dead- and in any case it will only ever ultimately meet resistance from those being both enslaved and "saved." If, as is hinted at in one epilogue slide, golems can be successfully fashioned using Fade spirits rather than living people, that would make for a very different social dynamic in using golems (though that too might bring up issues), one which wouldn't require dwarves desperate to kill fellow dwarves or surfacers. The golems bought a 100yr "peace" that was more like a 100yr pause, bought at the cost of further corrupting and dividing dwarven society, knowingly enslaving people against their will to a cause which, as we see, ended in a rout, dwarves more cutoff from their ancestral thaigs than ever.

And golems were never the only way to defeat the darkspawn. They were beaten back long before Caridin brought golems were brought on the scene. What dwarves have continued to need has been a united dwarven society and the backing of surfacers: a concerted effort to defeat the darkspawn in all their brood centers. Lacking such an effort, the "1000s of miles" of Deep Roads have been reduced to one last city dependent on surface trade and whatever is left of Kal Shirok.

Again: check the epilogue slides. Give the Anvil to Branka and you see that no matter who you give the throne to, it doesn't do anything meaningful or lasting for Orzammar, just sets up a new condition for corruption, putting more power in the hands of corrupt leaders. But play as a dwarf without giving Branka the Anvil and then get the Ferelden leader to lend aid to beating back the darkspawn in the Deep Roads, and you see that that does indeed save dwarven women from the broodmother fate. There just needs to be a lot more of that concerted effort with an intent to finish the darkspawn off.

Perhaps a poor example, but it's like giving a homeless person a handout of money or food: they can squander the former, but the latter is targeted directly to their needs. Dwarves need a genuinely stronger society not rife with caste oppression and other corrupting aspects and a specifically targeted assistance from surfacers, not simply more firepower in the hands of the current slew of noble "leaders" which those "leaders" can do with as they wish. That is how Orzammar can win against the darkspawn.

It's not that sacrificing the lives and freedom of countless dwarves (and others) as golems is just "too horrible-" though it kinda is, even when it's voluntary. It's that enslaving people to golem bodies isn't and never was the ultimately effective solution to the darkspawn. There are some "hard choices" one has to make in the game to defeat the darkspawn, but that certainly doesn't mean every "hard choice" is the correct one. There seems to be quite a few enamored with the cruel options in DAO regardless of how facts bear them out...

[Corker]

Bhryaen wrote...

the people being enslaved to it aren't going to agree that they're better off as slaves than as broodmothers- either way dead- and in any case it will only ever ultimately meet resistance from those being both enslaved and "saved." .

There was an in-game quote about that, right? Somewhere... oh. Right there!

"A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break - if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!" - Aldenon the Wise, co-founder of Ferelden

[Bhryaen]

lol @ Corker...

Aldenon the Wise... not to be confused with The Wise Alaundo...

[LobselVith8]

Bhryaen wrote...

Except that enslaving people to golem form doesn't ultimately succeed and can and will be used for the opposite of dwarven interests: killing fellow dwarves in fratricidal conflict. Yes, the golem might was stopped by Caridin rather than golems being ineffective in a battle. But the central issue isn't that golems aren't powerful in a fight.

Didn't you hear what was said about the golems during Caridin's day? The golems beat back the darkspawn that threatened the dwarven kingdoms and the first Archdemon. They provided a hundred years of peace for the dwarves. How can you seriously claim that they weren't powerful? As Oghren points out, one golem was worth ten dwarven warriors.

Bhryaen wrote...

The point is that the defection of a Caridin (you know, the guy who got the process going in the first place) is guaranteed at some point regardless: the people being enslaved to it aren't going to agree that they're better off as slaves than as broodmothers- either way dead- and in any case it will only ever ultimately meet resistance from those being both enslaved and "saved."

As Oghren points out, his people will volunteer because the darkspawn threaten their civilization (as well as every sentient race on the entire planet), and have eradicted all but two Great Thaigs. The Epilogues acknowledge that there are dwarven volunteers as well.

Bhryaen wrote...

If, as is hinted at in one epilogue slide, golems can be successfully fashioned using Fade spirits rather than living people, that would make for a very different social dynamic in using golems (though that too might bring up issues), one which wouldn't require dwarves desperate to kill fellow dwarves or surfacers.

It wasn't successful; it was a failure.

Bhryaen wrote...

The golems bought a 100yr "peace" that was more like a 100yr pause, bought at the cost of further corrupting and dividing dwarven society, knowingly enslaving people against their will to a cause which, as we see, ended in a rout, dwarves more cutoff from their ancestral thaigs than ever.

The difference is that there were many dwarven kingdoms and Great Thaigs when the Anvil was in use; without it, they dwindled down to simply two Great Thaigs while the darkspawn violated women and ate people. I think that the Anvil was the lesser of the two evils, especially since the darkspawn threaten everyone because of the taint and the corruption they bring by their mere presence.

Bhryaen wrote...

And golems were never the only way to defeat the darkspawn. They were beaten back long before Caridin brought golems were brought on the scene. What dwarves have continued to need has been a united dwarven society and the backing of surfacers: a concerted effort to defeat the darkspawn in all their brood centers. Lacking such an effort, the "1000s of miles" of Deep Roads have been reduced to one last city dependent on surface trade and whatever is left of Kal Shirok.

Golems were the reason the dwarves were actually holding their own against this fulcrum of evil for an entire century. The golems are the reason the dwarves were able to hold their own against the darkspawn. It's why they became so legendary in modern dwarven society.

Bhryaen wrote...

Again: check the epilogue slides. Give the Anvil to Branka and you see that no matter who you give the throne to, it doesn't do anything meaningful or lasting for Orzammar, just sets up a new condition for corruption, putting more power in the hands of corrupt leaders. But play as a dwarf without giving Branka the Anvil and then get the Ferelden leader to lend aid to beating back the darkspawn in the Deep Roads, and you see that that does indeed save dwarven women from the broodmother fate. There just needs to be a lot more of that concerted effort with an intent to finish the darkspawn off

It's pointed out that King Bhelen wants to reclaim the lost thaigs, so I imagine he'll use the golems to do precisely that, as that's the reason why he offers greater freedoms to the casteless who are willing to fight for their people. A concentrated effort by the warrior caste, the casteless, and the golems is something that I think can turn the tide of the decline of dwarven civilization.

Gaining human aid is only applicable for the Dwarven Hero of Ferelden and Bhelen as King, which is nice, but I don't think gaining back a fraction of their civilization discounts how useful the golems were when they had been used.

Bhryaen wrote...

Perhaps a poor example, but it's like giving a homeless person a handout of money or food: they can squander the former, but the latter is targeted directly to their needs. Dwarves need a genuinely stronger society not rife with caste oppression and other corrupting aspects and a specifically targeted assistance from surfacers, not simply more firepower in the hands of the current slew of noble "leaders" which those "leaders" can do with as they wish. That is how Orzammar can win against the darkspawn.

The surface world simply doesn't care. That's the problem with your suggestion. Unless the Dwarven Warden specifically uses a royal boon to get the aid of the human armies, the surface world doesn't care what happens until the darkspawn threaten them during the Blight.

Bhryaen wrote...

It's not that sacrificing the lives and freedom of countless dwarves (and others) as golems is just "too horrible-" though it kinda is, even when it's voluntary. It's that enslaving people to golem bodies isn't and never was the ultimately effective solution to the darkspawn. There are some "hard choices" one has to make in the game to defeat the darkspawn, but that certainly doesn't mean every "hard choice" is the correct one. There seems to be quite a few enamored with the cruel options in DAO regardless of how facts bear them out...

Enarmored? Hardly. Saving dwarven civilization from potential extinction is part of the reason some people spared the Anvil of the Void.

[Bhryaen]

@Lobselvith8
That golems are powerful and that they can be used to fight back darkspawn were not contested by me. (Actually I stated that myself.) It's also true, as Caridin points out, that the first to be enslaved to the Anvil were volunteers, and Shale was one of those. But you're confusing the potential of the golems with the actual reality of golems. They didn't end up some perfect anti-darkspawn force during Caridin's day, and they end up even less so if you give the Anvil to Branka. They're a guarantee of power, but not of how that power will be used.

The greater dwarven kingdom and its thaigs and Deep Roads weren't paved and built with golems, weren't paved against the darkspawn with golems. Dwarves managed to construct and keep that greater civilization without golems for many centuries. Then for one century (of many) they got golems. And at first it was the highest honor and duty and whatnot, and given their desperation during the first blight they overlooked the blood sacrifices required. But then the corruption set in: King Valtor started forcing people to become golems, including the casteless and political enemies. The cracks in dwarven society- caste oppression and political rivalry being the worst- were only accelerated by the introduction of golems... due, mind you, to the very nature of the golems- forged only through sacrificing lives.

So now this tool to use against the darkspawn was being used against dwarves. The casteless didn't rebel, I believe, (though I vaguely recall something like that happening in Amgarrak when the same corruption set in there), but Caridin did. Why? Because he cares about his fellow dwarves. And others were bound to do the same eventually, particularly from those segments of the population most in danger of forced conversion to golemhood: because it's murder and slavery and people generally don't accept that willingly, not even the casteless who are so immediately the target of the ruling caste. There simply had to be some other way to fight for dwarven civilization than letting some gutless monarch murder and enslave people to make an army to protect his own interests.

Thus the "Century of Peace" ended with the inevitable dissolution of an ultimately inadequate effort and a steady deterioration of the caste-divided, intrigue-riddled, isolated dwarven civilization. The golems could only ever make or have made short-term gains possible, and generally only under the worst peril when the threat of extinction was forcing dwarves to put aside personal rivalries and ambitions and simply act to survive. After that moment it would just be a matter of who gets to use the golems against who.

Below are the end slides for how things turn out giving the golems to Branka. And, mind you, there is no other way this happens: you destroy the Anvil or you give it to the lunatic Branka who intentionally turned her family into broodmothers and spawn food to get at the Anvil... (because she cares so much about stopping dwarves being turned into broodmothers and spawn food, of course). So it's not just a matter of Anvil or no Anvil. The choice is: Anvil in Branka's hands making golems for the crowned Harrowmont or Bhelen to use as they please... or no Anvil for any of them.

Anvil to Bhelen (this is the one you say went so well...)



So two things stand out:
1. Bhelen immediately started using people against their will. Likely that might have included members of the Harrowmont family, but it could also have included the casteless he claimed to respect and champion. It doesn't say, but already at its inception the golem-making process was enslaving dwarves...
2. Power grabs sabotaged the fratricidal golem venture. Bhelen demanded he be the only one receiving golems, Branka decided to make some for herself. And that's just how that extra power of the golems goes.

So whatever thaig-reclaiming Bhelen allegedly intended to do with his enslaved brethren, if you give Bhelen the Anvil he's immediately worse than King Valtor and "before long" Branka locks it away again anyway. Not to mention that Bhelen sends more dwarves to their deaths trying to get the Anvil away from Branka. So essentially a net loss, no use of golems to reclaim old thaigs much less reconquer all of the lost dwarven civilization, just a miserable period in which Bhelen murders people to acquire a personal army of golems.

Anvil to Harrowmont



Also not exactly a rosy scenario of advancing dwarven civilization and saving dwarf women from broodmotherhood. Instead of fighting darkspawn Harrowmont uses the golems to crush those (dwarves) in Bhelen's "rebellion" (from beyond the grave). There is also a change of epilogue slides from Harrowmont's usual one of becoming sickly and weak and dying like Endrin wasting away. With golem power behind him, this is how Harrowmont's rule goes:



It doesn't mention that he employs golems to do so, but these slides only appear if you give him golems. And again, who does Harrowmont crush? Genlocks? Ogres? Emissaries? Broodmothers? Deepstalkers? No: the casteless. He clamps down on their already scant rights in the caste-divided dwarven civilization of Orzammar and when they inevitably rebel on their own against his oppressive rule, he simply... kills them all. Thanks to golems... and, of course, your idealistic Warden for granting the Anvil to him to make that possible. Again, dwarves say thanks.

But then after murdering the casteless and crushing political opposition, he gets a heart... sort of like Caridin, except without being turned into golem for it. So he says no more golems. However, once again the Paragon of Sanity Branka decides she's not going to stop the enslavement. As you may recall from her interaction with Oghren after Caridin is killed, Branka admits that the enslaved "souls" are actually trapped in the Anvil and have been "calling" to her... except that she heard their "call" as an entreaty to enslave more. And in this playthrough you've encouraged her to keep on hearing that "call" as an entreaty rather than ask her to come to her senses (as Oghren prefers) and recognize that the "call" of the trapped "souls" is actually a plea to break the Anvil and free them from their otherwise eternal torment.

So Branka keeps on going with the golem-production in a lunatic frenzy to just keep making them, heedless of concerns about lives (like Hespeth's, et al), even managing surface raids to use surfacers as golem-fodder- again against their will. But OK, killing surfacers may ruin relations with the surface (Harrowmont does a lot of that), but dwarf lives are spared the hammer, no? And more golems = darkspawn beaten back, right? Nope. With Bhelen Branka seals herself in a fortress. With Harrowmont Branka seems to use them in the Deep Roads, but sparks a war with surfacers that entirely undermines any such effort... yet again a net loss. If only there were a people happy to sacrifice themselves to power-crazed lunatics. *lamentful glance to the clouds*

Not looking like murdering people and enslaving their "souls" to the Anvil is quite the enamoring draconian decision that lunatics like Branka make them out to be. I'll take Caridin's opinion over hers.

Now what happens if you don't give Bhelen or Harrowmont the Anvil? Well, Harrowmont does little about the darkspawn that way as well and withers away... but at least without murdering all of Dust Town in the process- nor enslaving "souls" to the Anvil. By contrast these are Bhelen's golem-free epilogue slides...



So now- no golems used whatsoever- not a sausage- dwarves manage for the "first time in generations" to "push back" the boundaries of the Deep Roads against the darkspawn. What???! Without using golems?? That can't be possible, right? What secret POWERFUL weapon was used to beat back the darkspawn? Spawnkiller Machines that require sacrificing five lives each? Nope. The casteless... Only he didn't force them to fight for Orzammar, and he didn't encase them in armor that was 10 times more powerful than a warrior caste member. He merely relaxed caste oppression and offered them rights in exchange for service against the spawnmeisters. And it worked. See what a little genuine inspiration from social reform can do? A united Orzammar that overcomes its caste oppression is a force to be reckoned with by the agents of corruption. Admittedly all he does is reclaim a few thaigs, but still. Progress. And the only progress you'll see in the end slides on the spawn-fighting front.

And what happens if you've destroyed the Anvil but you're a dwarf and the boon you request is surfacer aid in the Deep Roads? The epilogue slides don't seem to say in every case. My Harrowmont epilogue is devoid of mention of it, but my non-Anvil Bhelen epilogue slides include this:



All the way to Bownammar the effort gets! Not just a few thaigs! And NO GOLEMS! Just a united Orzammar also united with surfacers, just as when fighting the blight... effectively accomplishing the liberation of the thaigs and the destruction of brooding centers. Do surfacers not care at all about the threat of the darkspawn? You could perhaps articulate that cynicism about surfacers with good cause prior to the blight. But after suffering those losses and facing darkspawn directly and being united with dwarves to fight darkspawn on the surface, forging the united forces to continue the offensive into the Deep Roads would be that much easier. The Warden already does all the hardest work of getting the Treaty allies together in the first place. Now they just need to forge a lasting alliance that can prevent blights for countless centuries or perhaps forever. It's not the easiest solution, but it's the only ultimately effective solution and the only one with long-term gains. Its effectiveness is born out over centuries of fighting blights. Without it you can forge Ubergolems and still get mixed results and lose more ground to the darkspawn.

As to forging golems with Fade spirits, yes, I was aware it didn't work. My point was that if it had worked, at least the element of inevitable rebellion wouldn't apply: there would be no strata of the population being put through the golem meatgrinder which would thereby have cause to resist. And my point was also that it didn't work, so making golems will remain a counterproductive venture. But even without turning a caste of people into golem fodder, golem power will never necessarily entail dwarven resurgence, not while dwarven civilization itself remains so very uncivil. There will have to be something more substantial to fight for than perpetuating a status quo of backstabbing nobles and stratified castes.

Modifié par Bhryaen, 08 juin 2013 - 08:04 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

@Lobselvith8
That golems are powerful and that they can be used to fight back darkspawn were not contested by me. (Actually I stated that myself.) It's also true, as Caridin points out, that the first to be enslaved to the Anvil were volunteers, and Shale was one of those. But you're confusing the potential of the golems with the actual reality of golems. They didn't end up some perfect anti-darkspawn force during Caridin's day, and they end up even less so if you give the Anvil to Branka. They're a guarantee of power, but not of how that power will be used. [/quote]

You stated that "golems weren't very powerful in a fight", which is contradicted by the fact that the golems beat back the encroaching darkspawn and the first Archdemon. That was the point I was specifically addressing with my comment.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

The greater dwarven kingdom and its thaigs and Deep Roads weren't paved and built with golems, weren't paved against the darkspawn with golems. Dwarves managed to construct and keep that greater civilization without golems for many centuries. Then for one century (of many) they got golems. And at first it was the highest honor and duty and whatnot, and given their desperation during the first blight they overlooked the blood sacrifices required. But then the corruption set in: King Valtor started forcing people to become golems, including the casteless and political enemies. The cracks in dwarven society- caste oppression and political rivalry being the worst- were only accelerated by the introduction of golems... due, mind you, to the very nature of the golems- forged only through sacrificing lives. [/quote]

While Caridin's removal of the golems pretty much destroyed all of the dwarven kingdoms but two. His actions didn't improve anything - they doomed dwarven civilization to near extinction. Countless thaigs and Great Thaigs brought to ruination by the darkspawn. And the darkspawn aren't simply a dwarven problem. The darkspawn corrupt the land by their mere presence. They kill indiscriminately, and they violate women to create Broodmothers while they eat people. They threaten all of known civilization on Thedas. The darkspawn need to be stopped, which is why the Grey Wardens are willing to do whatever it takes to stop them - including some pretty radical things that cross moral lines. Otherwise, the darkspawn will corrupt everything and destroy everyone. If the golems can provide a means to that end, then I think they should be used.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

So now this tool to use against the darkspawn was being used against dwarves. The casteless didn't rebel, I believe, (though I vaguely recall something like that happening in Amgarrak when the same corruption set in there), but Caridin did. Why? Because he cares about his fellow dwarves. And others were bound to do the same eventually, particularly from those segments of the population most in danger of forced conversion to golemhood: because it's murder and slavery and people generally don't accept that willingly, not even the casteless who are so immediately the target of the ruling caste. There simply had to be some other way to fight for dwarven civilization than letting some gutless monarch murder and enslave people to make an army to protect his own interests. [/quote]

Caridin cared so much about his fellow dwarves that he preferred they get violated and eaten instead of protected by golems, letting dwarven civilization nearly fall to the darkspawn.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

Thus the "Century of Peace" ended with the inevitable dissolution of an ultimately inadequate effort and a steady deterioration of the caste-divided, intrigue-riddled, isolated dwarven civilization. The golems could only ever make or have made short-term gains possible, and generally only under the worst peril when the threat of extinction was forcing dwarves to put aside personal rivalries and ambitions and simply act to survive. After that moment it would just be a matter of who gets to use the golems against who. [/quote]

The golems made a century of peace possible. I'm willing to give the steel soldiers the benefit of the doubt that it wouldn't have been a "short-term" gain had Caridin not sacrificed all of dwarven civilization for his morality.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

Below are the end slides for how things turn out giving the golems to Branka. And, mind you, there is no other way this happens: you destroy the Anvil or you give it to the lunatic Branka who intentionally turned her family into broodmothers and spawn food to get at the Anvil... (because she cares so much about stopping dwarves being turned into broodmothers and spawn food, of course). So it's not just a matter of Anvil or no Anvil. The choice is: Anvil in Branka's hands making golems for the crowned Harrowmont or Bhelen to use as they please... or no Anvil for any of them. [/quote]

Don't confuse my support for ending the darkspawn threat with an acceptance of Branka's actions. I wish there was a more suitable person to handle the Anvil, but she's the best of limited choices that I'm given, and I'm not going to sacrifice dwarven society because she's a despicable person who did monstrous things to the people from her House.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

Anvil to Bhelen (this is the one you say went so well...)



So two things stand out:
1. Bhelen immediately started using people against their will. Likely that might have included members of the Harrowmont family, but it could also have included the casteless he claimed to respect and champion. It doesn't say, but already at its inception the golem-making process was enslaving dwarves...
2. Power grabs sabotaged the fratricidal golem venture. Bhelen demanded he be the only one receiving golems, Branka decided to make some for herself. And that's just how that extra power of the golems goes. [/quote]

I doubt King Bhelen would need to use the casteless as golems when he's giving them greater freedoms in exchange for their participation in the Deep Roads, which is what causes so much political unrest among the traditional dwarves in Orzammar. Sacrificing "traditionalists" who see the casteless as nothing to the Anvil is a small price to pay for stopping the darkspawn.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

So whatever thaig-reclaiming Bhelen allegedly intended to do with his enslaved brethren, if you give Bhelen the Anvil he's immediately worse than King Valtor and "before long" Branka locks it away again anyway. Not to mention that Bhelen sends more dwarves to their deaths trying to get the Anvil away from Branka. So essentially a net loss, no use of golems to reclaim old thaigs much less reconquer all of the lost dwarven civilization, just a miserable period in which Bhelen murders people to acquire a personal army of golems. [/quote]

None of those Epilogue slides address whether the lost thaigs were successfully reclaimed or not, so you can't really use them as evidence that it never happened.

You might think the Anvil shouldn't be used because things turn sour between Bhelen and Branka, but I see little choice in the matter. The surface world isn't going to help, dwarven society hasn't changed for centuries, and the darkspawn are a real threat to everyone. I look at the situation pragmatically. An army of golems that can be used to get back the darkspawn and reclaim thaigs, along with the warrior caste, the Dead Legion, and Bhelen's newly recruited casteless fighters. That's the best of a bad situation.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

Anvil to Harrowmont



Also not exactly a rosy scenario of advancing dwarven civilization and saving dwarf women from broodmotherhood. Instead of fighting darkspawn Harrowmont uses the golems to crush those (dwarves) in Bhelen's "rebellion" (from beyond the grave). [/quote]

You seem to confuse me for someone who would ever give the Crown to Harrowmont.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

There is also a change of epilogue slides from Harrowmont's usual one of becoming sickly and weak and dying like Endrin wasting away. With golem power behind him, this is how Harrowmont's rule goes:



It doesn't mention that he employs golems to do so, but these slides only appear if you give him golems. And again, who does Harrowmont crush? Genlocks? Ogres? Emissaries? Broodmothers? Deepstalkers? No: the casteless. He clamps down on their already scant rights in the caste-divided dwarven civilization of Orzammar and when they inevitably rebel on their own against his oppressive rule, he simply... kills them all. Thanks to golems... and, of course, your idealistic Warden for granting the Anvil to him to make that possible. Again, dwarves say thanks. [/quote]

My pragmatic Surana Warden gave the Crown to Harrowmont. Greater rights for the casteless, more people to fight against the darkspawn in the Deep Roads, a leader who wanted to increase trade with the surface world, a King who wanted to reclaim the lost thaigs from the darkspawn, and an army of golems that could possibly turn the tide of battle in their favor.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

But then after murdering the casteless and crushing political opposition, he gets a heart... sort of like Caridin, except without being turned into golem for it. [/quote]

Harrowmont is a heartless traditionalist who is willing to sack Dust Town to keep the casteless under his boot. Let's not pretend he ever had a heart to begin with.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

So he says no more golems. However, once again the Paragon of Sanity Branka decides she's not going to stop the enslavement. As you may recall from her interaction with Oghren after Caridin is killed, Branka admits that the enslaved "souls" are actually trapped in the Anvil and have been "calling" to her... except that she heard their "call" as an entreaty to enslave more. And in this playthrough you've encouraged her to keep on hearing that "call" as an entreaty rather than ask her to come to her senses (as Oghren prefers) and recognize that the "call" of the trapped "souls" is actually a plea to break the Anvil and free them from their otherwise eternal torment. [/quote]

My Warden encouraged Branka to use the Anvil to create golems to defeat the darkspawn. If sparing the Anvil leads to an eventual victory against the darkspawn with the use of golems - no matter how unpleasant it was - then it was a necessary move.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

So Branka keeps on going with the golem-production in a lunatic frenzy to just keep making them, heedless of concerns about lives (like Hespeth's, et al), even managing surface raids to use surfacers as golem-fodder- again against their will. But OK, killing surfacers may ruin relations with the surface (Harrowmont does a lot of that), but dwarf lives are spared the hammer, no? And more golems = darkspawn beaten back, right? Nope. With Bhelen Branka seals herself in a fortress. With Harrowmont Branka seems to use them in the Deep Roads, but sparks a war with surfacers that entirely undermines any such effort... yet again a net loss. If only there were a people happy to sacrifice themselves to power-crazed lunatics. *lamentful glance to the clouds* [/quote]

Unless you have Epilogue slides that address whether or not the lost thaigs were reclaimed, I don't think you can claim the thaigs were or weren't reclaimed. We simply don't know. And we have no idea how events will unfold as soon as Branka perishes. Oghren actually admits he thinks his people are doomed because of their traditionalist ways, and the darkspawn have destroyed so much of their civilization that they are barely holding on to what little they have. I was faced with making the best solutions in a bad situation. Things already improve with Bhelen as the new King, and his son being the scion of a casteless woman could lead to further change for the better. And I think history has already proved how useful golems are.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

Not looking like murdering people and enslaving their "souls" to the Anvil is quite the enamoring draconian decision that lunatics like Branka make them out to be. I'll take Caridin's opinion over hers. [/quote]

There's nothing enarmoring about the decision. Everyone admits it's unpleasant and horrible. Some of us simply think it's a necessary move because the alternative is possible extinction.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

Now what happens if you don't give Bhelen or Harrowmont the Anvil? Well, Harrowmont does little about the darkspawn that way as well and withers away... but at least without murdering all of Dust Town in the process- nor enslaving "souls" to the Anvil. By contrast these are Bhelen's golem-free epilogue slides...



[/quote]

You realize those same Epilogue slides show up if you spare the Anvil and crown Bhelen as King, right?

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

So now- no golems used whatsoever- not a sausage- dwarves manage for the "first time in generations" to "push back" the boundaries of the Deep Roads against the darkspawn. What???! Without using golems?? That can't be possible, right? What secret POWERFUL weapon was used to beat back the darkspawn? Spawnkiller Machines that require sacrificing five lives each? Nope. The casteless... Only he didn't force them to fight for Orzammar, and he didn't encase them in armor that was 10 times more powerful than a warrior caste member. He merely relaxed caste oppression and offered them rights in exchange for service against the spawnmeisters. And it worked. See what a little genuine inspiration from social reform can do? A united Orzammar that overcomes its caste oppression is a force to be reckoned with by the agents of corruption. Admittedly all he does is reclaim a few thaigs, but still. Progress. And the only progress you'll see in the end slides on the spawn-fighting front. [/quote]

Again, we don't know the difference between how many thaigs might be reclaimed with the golems, and without them, because the Epilogue slides never focus on that issue. If the golems lead to a hundred years of peace for dwarven society and were capable of handling an Archdemon, then I think it's safe to say they were fairly useful in dealing with the darkspawn.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

And what happens if you've destroyed the Anvil but you're a dwarf and the boon you request is surfacer aid in the Deep Roads? The epilogue slides don't seem to say in every case. My Harrowmont epilogue is devoid of mention of it, but my non-Anvil Bhelen epilogue slides include this:



All the way to Bownammar the effort gets! Not just a few thaigs! And NO GOLEMS! Just a united Orzammar also united with surfacers, just as when fighting the blight... effectively accomplishing the liberation of the thaigs and the destruction of brooding centers. Do surfacers not care at all about the threat of the darkspawn? You could perhaps articulate that cynicism about surfacers with good cause prior to the blight. But after suffering those losses and facing darkspawn directly and being united with dwarves to fight darkspawn on the surface, forging the united forces to continue the offensive into the Deep Roads would be that much easier. The Warden already does all the hardest work of getting the Treaty allies together in the first place. Now they just need to forge a lasting alliance that can prevent blights for countless centuries or perhaps forever. It's not the easiest solution, but it's the only ultimately effective solution and the only one with long-term gains. Its effectiveness is born out over centuries of fighting blights. Without it you can forge Ubergolems and still get mixed results and lose more ground to the darkspawn. [/quote]

You know, that's honestly a great outcome for your Dwarven Warden turned Paragon, but realistically speaking, it's basically like having New York (Orzammar) reclaim all of New Jersey when the entire United States has fallen to the darkspawn armies, especially when we're explicitly told that the dwarven kingdoms once ran along the entire continent of Thedas.

And that outcome simply isn't possible without a Dwarven Warden using a royal boon to force the surface world to actually give a damn about dealing with the darkspawn outside of the Blights; in this case, one single kingdom of human civilization with an amicable ruler. For my elven mage, such an outcome will never be possible.

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...

As to forging golems with Fade spirits, yes, I was aware it didn't work. My point was that if it had worked, at least the element of inevitable rebellion wouldn't apply: there would be no strata of the population being put through the golem meatgrinder which would thereby have cause to resist. And my point was also that it didn't work, so making golems will remain a counterproductive venture. But even without turning a caste of people into golem fodder, golem power will never necessarily entail dwarven resurgence, not while dwarven civilization itself remains so very uncivil. There will have to be something more substantial to fight for than perpetuating a status quo of backstabbing nobles and stratified castes.[/quote]

Things have remained uncivil for millennia, while the darkspawn are a very real threat now. If the golems can possibly change that, then I think it's worth taking that chance.