101 réponses à ce sujet

[NvVanity]

There was a theory thread somewhere called the journal/diary/log of the turian council member. The OP in that thread came up with a theory that the council does know but because of Shepards allegiance to Cerberus don't want him in (and Cerberus through Shepard) on what they know about the reapers. The Thanix cannon is based off of reaper tech and the turian military has it so the council is doing some kind of reverse engineering on Reaper tech.

[HTTP 404]

Making the council bad guys you kill in ME3 would make sense in a story arcing way even if you killed the original council in ME1.  Killing them in ME3 gets rid of what if scenerios if they ever want sequals or books after ME3, they would just say shephard killed them or they just died, etc. whatever. 

Make sense, but i don't like it.  Im more inclined to believe the illusive man comes into indoctrination whether he knows it or not in ME3.  Reapers seducing him to think the humans will reign over the galaxy if he either turns a blind eye to them or outright helps them.  The illusive man focused on stopping the collectors killing humans rather than reapers and used reaper as a hook to draw shephard in even though he was right about the reapers.  We already see that the reapers see humans as a viable way to reproduce so why kill them off right away?  use us to make some more reapers than move on.  BTW, in the upcoming novel, the illusive man uses reaper tech on the main character.  But i stray from OP, i hate these posts they make me think too much.  

[Proellx]

Thompson family wrote...

RE: OP's theory.

Then Anderson would be affected too, and he's obviously not.

Anderson didn't seem like the same person, he's been drained. It either is the his role or the effects of reaper pacification

[Proellx]

NvVanity wrote...

There was a theory thread somewhere called the journal/diary/log of the turian council member. The OP in that thread came up with a theory that the council does know but because of Shepards allegiance to Cerberus don't want him in (and Cerberus through Shepard) on what they know about the reapers. The Thanix cannon is based off of reaper tech and the turian military has it so the council is doing some kind of reverse engineering on Reaper tech.

Yes, I've seen that one. It was quite an intriguing idea.

[Forsakerr]

Proellx wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

RE: OP's theory.

Then Anderson would be affected too, and he's obviously not.

Anderson didn't seem like the same person, he's been drained. It either is the his role or the effects of reaper pacification

also he s the one that spent the less time in the council so if it s a long term indoctrination thing it will take a while before it has full power over him

[Proellx]

Weskerr wrote...

It's fun to theorize about these things - I do it myself. In the end, however, logic has no place in fictional stories. The only truth is what the writers say it is.

Yes it is. I hope the writers can find something creative to explain the councils change.

[Gemini1179]

The Angry One wrote...

The real explanation is simple. BioWare wanted to force Shep into working for Cerberus because they thought it would be cool... why they thought that is anyone's guess.
So to do that, they force the Council and the Alliance to hold the idiot ball so that suddenly the only people who want to fight the Reapers are the jackass terrorists from ME1, and Shep happily goes along with them.

I can only hope in ME3 we're allowed to choose our sides, so the Council will stop beating themselves over the head with the stupid bat and I can shove TIM's crackpipe up his rear end.

Seconded... or thirded... I'll be honest, I haven't read past this post. Didn't need to. (Didn't really need to read past the first reply "Plot Device" is probably the simplest answer)

[Proellx]

Forsakerr wrote...

Proellx wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

RE: OP's theory.

Then Anderson would be affected too, and he's obviously not.

Anderson didn't seem like the same person, he's been drained. It either is the his role or the effects of reaper pacification

also he s the one that spent the less time in the council so if it s a long term indoctrination thing it will take a while before it has full power over him

He was also the most outspoken and concerned about the reaper threat. Anderson is very strong willed. 

[OldMachine]

Indoctrination is running more rampid then i think i would like to believe. I have made multiple ME1 playthroughs and @ the end everyone is all gung ho about chasing down the reapers... and suddenly only 2 years later no one believes? i dont think its them running scared or trying to dismiss, there is no other explanation IMO then that they have been indoctrinated. i like a previous posters idea about the keepers using sov. to rebuild and thus reviving and allowing sov. the chance to take over the minds of the council...

[Massadonious1]

Leaving some sort of indocrtrination, however slight, on the Citadel seems counterintuitive to their plan. They don't need anyone already on the Citadel to activate it, and it was clear that whatever defenses were left were clearly innefective because they were up against a clearly superior force. Weakening them would seem pointless.



Their plan as is has worked at least one time that we know of, and god knows how many times before that. If it wasn't for some upstart human and his rag tag group of companions, their plan would of succeeded again.



If only the Protheans had someone as awesome as Shephard.

[Proellx]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Leaving some sort of indocrtrination, however slight, on the Citadel seems counterintuitive to their plan. They don't need anyone already on the Citadel to activate it, and it was clear that whatever defenses were left were clearly innefective because they were up against a clearly superior force. Weakening them would seem pointless.

Their plan as is has worked at least one time that we know of, and god knows how many times before that. If it wasn't for some upstart human and his rag tag group of companions, their plan would of succeeded again.

If only the Protheans had someone as awesome as Shephard.

Why not? The reapers failed their standard plan of attack. It was unexpected for them to fail. They require a surprise attack to eliminate any organized resistance.

If some part of Sov remains then why not infiltrate the top levels of government and hinder them as much as possible for the upcoming head to head battle.

[SurfaceBeneath]

There are some hints that the Citadel is probably subtly indoctrinating those on it, or at least manipulating their thoughts in such a way as to make them behave in a specific manner.. Such as not bothering to actually investigate what it is, what it does, and who those funny green bug people are that kinda just wander around and do things on it.

There's no logical reason to assume that after thousands of years they wouldn't have put in a concerted effort to look into that stuff. The only real explanation is that there is some mental signal that simply makes them just accept the Citadel for what it is. Also to make it the galactic center of civilization so that when the Reapers do come through they'll instantly obliterate the primary power structure of the Galaxy which would completely eliminate any organized response to the attack. There's probably a lot about the Citadel we don't know.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 02 mars 2010 - 08:26 .

[Terraneaux]

The Citadel has never been shown to indoctrinate people, and it wouldn't make sense for it to do so, as the rest of the galaxy would notice peculiar psychological changes in the Citadel population. It's just a plot device that the council doesn't believe Shepard, a bad one, as it flies in the face of what has gone before.

[SurfaceBeneath]

"Hey, what's this strange floating space station doing here at the center of the relay network?"



"I don't know Bob. Why don't we make the capitol of all galactic civilization?"



"Sounds like a great idea! Do you think we should like, check it to see if there might be anything fishy going on here?"



"No."



"Yea, neither did I."

[SurfaceBeneath]

Terraneaux wrote...

The Citadel has never been shown to indoctrinate people, and it wouldn't make sense for it to do so, as the rest of the galaxy would notice peculiar psychological changes in the Citadel population. It's just a plot device that the council doesn't believe Shepard, a bad one, as it flies in the face of what has gone before.

Then explain why the Keepers and fundamental origin and purpose of the Citadel has been ignored by everyone who has lived there for thousands of years. Then tell me why every galactic civilization that we know of decided it was a great idea to center their civilization on something they admittedly know little about. Then tell me why it is not reasonable that since it was made by the Reapers in the first place as a trap for organics, and that Reapers have been shown to have varying degress of control over the minds of organics (the full range of which we have not seen) that they would not use this ability to lure them there and make them complacent.

It sounds to me that you're ignoring evidence so that they don't threaten your preconceived notions of the plot.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 02 mars 2010 - 08:39 .

[Proellx]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

It sounds to me that you're ignoring evidence so that they don't threaten your preconceived notions of the plot.

FTW

Modifié par Proellx, 02 mars 2010 - 08:44 .

[Terraneaux]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

The Citadel has never been shown to indoctrinate people, and it wouldn't make sense for it to do so, as the rest of the galaxy would notice peculiar psychological changes in the Citadel population. It's just a plot device that the council doesn't believe Shepard, a bad one, as it flies in the face of what has gone before.

Then explain why the Keepers and fundamental origin and purpose of the Citadel has been ignored by everyone who has lived there for thousands of years. Then tell me why every galactic civilization that we know of decided it was a great idea to center their civilization on something they admittedly know little about. Then tell me why it is not reasonable that since it was made by the Reapers in the first place as a trap for organics, and that Reapers have been shown to have varying degress of control over the minds of organics (the full range of which we have not seen) that they would not use this ability to lure them there and make them complacent.

It sounds to me that you're ignoring evidence so that they don't threaten your preconceived notions of the plot.

That Salarian and Volus from ME1 scanned the keepers.  It was illegal to scan the keepers because they self-destruct when you do.  And the reason that so many galactic civilizations settled there was that it was a natural center to the mass relay system.  If the Citadel had the capacity to indoctrinate people living there Saren would have never had to attack it in ME1, ergo it does not have that capability.

[Godeshus]

My theory is that the writers hacked together a lame excuse for not involving the council in ME2. No conspiracy, no plot twists, just limited imagination.



-godeshus

[Massadonious1]

The "trap" is to let races grow and advance as a society, then snuff them all out. Waiting however number of years for them to evolve while slowly mind controlling them seems kind of silly when they have the ability to indoctrinate people on a pretty fast and advanced scale.



Why not turn us all into husks to begin with? It would be a lot easier.

[Proellx]

Terraneaux wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

The Citadel has never been shown to indoctrinate people, and it wouldn't make sense for it to do so, as the rest of the galaxy would notice peculiar psychological changes in the Citadel population. It's just a plot device that the council doesn't believe Shepard, a bad one, as it flies in the face of what has gone before.

Then explain why the Keepers and fundamental origin and purpose of the Citadel has been ignored by everyone who has lived there for thousands of years. Then tell me why every galactic civilization that we know of decided it was a great idea to center their civilization on something they admittedly know little about. Then tell me why it is not reasonable that since it was made by the Reapers in the first place as a trap for organics, and that Reapers have been shown to have varying degress of control over the minds of organics (the full range of which we have not seen) that they would not use this ability to lure them there and make them complacent.

It sounds to me that you're ignoring evidence so that they don't threaten your preconceived notions of the plot.

That Salarian and Volus from ME1 scanned the keepers.  It was illegal to scan the keepers because they self-destruct when you do.  And the reason that so many galactic civilizations settled there was that it was a natural center to the mass relay system.  If the Citadel had the capacity to indoctrinate people living there Saren would have never had to attack it in ME1, ergo it does not have that capability.

There could be varying levels of indoctrination; from influencing opinions to complete take over. Like Legions explanation of the difference of opinion between the Geth and the Heretics was varied 0.0001
I’m also saying that that ability may have been increased slightly more or it's purpose if the keepers have integrated Sovereigns wreckage into the citadel.

[harazal]

As others have said, its very easy to explain. Most politicians today operate on the same principles as the council, i.e. small issues, that dont ruffle feathers. Its an accepted fact that we're destroying the enviroment, but no one wants to confront it, because its difficutt, because it would involve hard and unpopular choices.

Imagine now you were one of 3 beings, and you had the final word for trillions of beings. They don't want to admit to the reapers because they're terrified. They don't want to be responsible for the deaths of millions or billions.

Modifié par harazal, 02 mars 2010 - 08:50 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Terraneaux wrote...
That Salarian and Volus from ME1 scanned the keepers.  It was illegal to scan the keepers because they self-destruct when you do.  And the reason that so many galactic civilizations settled there was that it was a natural center to the mass relay system.  If the Citadel had the capacity to indoctrinate people living there Saren would have never had to attack it in ME1, ergo it does not have that capability.

You don't make the capitol of your galactic civilization, a place which if neutralized will cause the complete undoing of your entire civilization, in a place you know nothing about... I don't care how "convenient" it is. And like you just said, some idiot Salarian and Volus found a way to scan keepers without them blowing up... why where they able to do this but the collected scientists of all the Citadel not? And that still doesn't explain why nobody actually goes within the Citadel to check out its workings inside, which nobody has, and which there is positively nothing stopping them from doing so.

And indoctrination is not mind control. It simply influences your mind into a state in which you favor the indonctrinator to some degree. This can range from complete and utter devotion (the people on the direlect reaper) to relative autonomy in Saren's case. There's no law that states that Indoctrination can't be used to just keep a population complacent and unsuspicious of their surroundings.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 02 mars 2010 - 08:52 .

[Proellx]

harazal wrote...

As others have said, its very easy to explain. Most politicians today operate on the same principles as the council, i.e. small issues, that dont ruffle feathers. Its an accepted fact that we're destroying the enviroment, but no one wants to confront it, because its difficutt, because it would involve hard and unpopular choices.

Imagine now you were one of 3 beings, and you had the final word for trillions of beings. They don't want to admit to the reapers because they're terrified. They don't want to be responsible for the deaths of millions or billions.

What you don't think our politicians are not under some sort of control or that the mass population is under some sort of control?

[Terraneaux]

harazal wrote...

As others have said, its very easy to explain. Most politicians today operate on the same principles as the council, i.e. small issues, that dont ruffle feathers. Its an accepted fact that we're destroying the enviroment, but no one wants to confront it, because its difficutt, because it would involve hard and unpopular choices.

Imagine now you were one of 3 beings, and you had the final word for trillions of beings. They don't want to admit to the reapers because they're terrified. They don't want to be responsible for the deaths of millions or billions.

We have no idea how aliens behave psychologically, but to advance to the point where they develop space travel they have to have a certain amount of pragmatism.  The scenario you posit would be perfect for the 'publicly deny reapers, privately send support to Shepard while having him gather info on Cerberus' story idea that would have made a lot more sense.  

[Never]

Well if they did believe you then you'd probably be working for them, and not Cerberus. That would require making a whole new game.