101 réponses à ce sujet

[Terraneaux]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

You don't make the capitol of your galactic civilization, a place which if neutralized will cause the complete undoing of your entire civilization, in a place you know nothing about... I don't care how "convenient" it is. And like you just said, some idiot Salarian and Volus found a way to scan keepers without them blowing up... why where they able to do this but the collected scientists of all the Citadel not? And that still doesn't explain why nobody actually goes within the Citadel to check out its workings inside, which nobody has, and which there is positively nothing stopping them from doing so.

The Salarian and Volus were not random idiots, the Salarian had developed new, cutting edge medical scanning technology, which basically no one else in the galaxy had, and the Volus was a data analyst.  They were smart dudes.  As far as the Mass Relay system goes, think of it like oil in our world.  It's cheap and efficient, so we use it for a lot of things.  People suggest alternatives, saying 'what if we run out of oil?' but they're not fully accepted; everything else is still called 'alternative energy' for a reason.  And some people think they should make there own mass relays to not be so dependent on the citadel, but they're a minority.  Remember, the reapers made the Citadel to be convenient, so people would live there and make it the basis of their intragalactic transportation network.  

And indoctrination is not mind control. It simply influences your mind into a state in which you favor the indonctrinator to some degree. This can range from complete and utter devotion (the people on the direlect reaper) to relative autonomy in Saren's case. There's no law that states that Indoctrination can't be used to just keep a population complacent and unsuspicious of their surroundings.

Yes, but it could just as easily be used to make people on the Citadel open the Mass Relay for the Reapers.  So it isn't really plausible that that capability exists.

[Forsakerr]

Godeshus wrote...

My theory is that the writers hacked together a lame excuse for not involving the council in ME2. No conspiracy, no plot twists, just limited imagination.

-godeshus

in fact you are right, a Bioware poster said a while ago that he asked the writers about the councill gone brain dead and they replied it was easyer for them to pretend that the council went stupid than finding something else , the thread was called : did the council went brain dead (then other words, last time i did a search it did nt found it but it was at page 90 maybe a week ago)

[Terraneaux]

mynameisdanza wrote...

Well if they did believe you then you'd probably be working for them, and not Cerberus. That would require making a whole new game.

But, you know, they could have made it right the first time, rather than feeling some need to make the story about Cerberus rather than the stuff that was going on in the first game.

[Godeshus]

Forsakerr wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

My theory is that the writers hacked together a lame excuse for not involving the council in ME2. No conspiracy, no plot twists, just limited imagination.

-godeshus

in fact you are right, a Bioware poster said a while ago that he asked the writers about the councill gone brain dead and they replied it was easyer for them to pretend that the council went stupid than finding something else , the thread was called : did the council went brain dead (then other words, last time i did a search it did nt found it but it was at page 90 maybe a week ago)

http://social.biowar...5/index/1168396

[Never]

Terraneaux wrote...

mynameisdanza wrote...

Well if they did believe you then you'd probably be working for them, and not Cerberus. That would require making a whole new game.

But, you know, they could have made it right the first time, rather than feeling some need to make the story about Cerberus rather than the stuff that was going on in the first game.

I hate hate hate Cerberus, and completely agree.  I know my Shep would never have chosen to work for them, regardless of bringing her back to life.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Terraneaux wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

You don't make the capitol of your galactic civilization, a place which if neutralized will cause the complete undoing of your entire civilization, in a place you know nothing about... I don't care how "convenient" it is. And like you just said, some idiot Salarian and Volus found a way to scan keepers without them blowing up... why where they able to do this but the collected scientists of all the Citadel not? And that still doesn't explain why nobody actually goes within the Citadel to check out its workings inside, which nobody has, and which there is positively nothing stopping them from doing so.

The Salarian and Volus were not random idiots, the Salarian had developed new, cutting edge medical scanning technology, which basically no one else in the galaxy had, and the Volus was a data analyst.  They were smart dudes.  As far as the Mass Relay system goes, think of it like oil in our world.  It's cheap and efficient, so we use it for a lot of things.  People suggest alternatives, saying 'what if we run out of oil?' but they're not fully accepted; everything else is still called 'alternative energy' for a reason.  And some people think they should make there own mass relays to not be so dependent on the citadel, but they're a minority.  Remember, the reapers made the Citadel to be convenient, so people would live there and make it the basis of their intragalactic transportation network.  

They might have not been "idiots" but they certainly were not the smartest fish in the sea, given that the quests they put you on ("He's trying to kill me?!" "Why do you think that?" "I DONT KNOW HE IS"). And considering they did this as an independent program without any support from any outside agency, there is absolutely no reason to believe that they should have had access to any technology that the Council couldn't have made over the past several thousand years. I think you're really underestimating how long a time these people have been on the citadel.

And indoctrination is not mind control. It simply influences your mind into a state in which you favor the indonctrinator to some degree. This can range from complete and utter devotion (the people on the direlect reaper) to relative autonomy in Saren's case. There's no law that states that Indoctrination can't be used to just keep a population complacent and unsuspicious of their surroundings.

Yes, but it could just as easily be used to make people on the Citadel open the Mass Relay for the Reapers.  So it isn't really plausible that that capability exists.

The Reapers need to use the Citadel to lure species there, but at the same time develop somewhat autonomously to harvest them. Indoctrination might not be a switch you can simply flip and probably requires a Reaper to actually control. That doesn't mean that they can't make a sort of background indoctrination that keeps everyone on the Citadel without questioning it. It's probably the the Citadel just gives off a static signal that does this.

I find this much easier to believe than the "greatest minds in the galaxy" being on the largest space station in the galaxy and when confronted with the question of how it got there, what it does, and why/what the Keepers are that take care of it, they respond with the equivilent of "lol i dunno, who cares?"

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 02 mars 2010 - 09:10 .

[Massadonious1]

Maybe developing the modified Genophage, disease cures, new weapon technology, etc., were more important than wondering why some spider bug creatures kept repairing things?

[mr. oogie boogie]

After my first play through on ME2 I realized I should have let them die the council is full of douches especially the turian.

Modifié par mr. oogie boogie, 02 mars 2010 - 09:25 .

[Terraneaux]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...
They might have not been "idiots" but they certainly were not the smartest fish in the sea, given that the quests they put you on ("He's trying to kill me?!" "Why do you think that?" "I DONT KNOW HE IS"). And considering they did this as an independent program without any support from any outside agency, there is absolutely no reason to believe that they should have had access to any technology that the Council couldn't have made over the past several thousand years. I think you're really underestimating how long a time these people have been on the citadel.

It's stated explicitly that the technology needed to scan them was only just developed, and that Chorban or whatever misappropriated some of the scanners.  So... you're wrong, they do have access to technology that most people don't have.  

The Reapers need to use the Citadel to lure species there, but at the same time develop somewhat autonomously to harvest them. Indoctrination might not be a switch you can simply flip and probably requires a Reaper to actually control. That doesn't mean that they can't make a sort of background indoctrination that keeps everyone on the Citadel without questioning it. It's probably the the Citadel just gives off a static signal that does this.

I find this much easier to believe than the "greatest minds in the galaxy" being on the largest space station in the galaxy and when confronted with the question of how it got there, what it does, and why/what the Keepers are that take care of it, they respond with the equivilent of "lol i dunno, who cares?"

Remember, indoctrination can be applied selectively to certain beings, so we know Reapers have control over who they are indoctrinating.  If the Citadel had the capability of indoctrinating people, Saren and Sovereign would have used that instead of invading.  

[Terraneaux]

mr. oogie boogie wrote...

After my first play through on ME2 I realized I should have let them die the council is full of douches especially the turian. They don't believe shepherd because he accomplished more in a few months than any of them could have. I'll cure the krogan just to annoy them. Bioware if your reading this make a mass effect mmo!!

Except that if you do kill them, the humans don't believe you either.  Bad writing.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Terraneaux wrote...
It's stated explicitly that the technology needed to scan them was only just developed, and that Chorban or whatever misappropriated some of the scanners.  So... you're wrong, they do have access to technology that most people don't have.  

Yes, two yahoos who can't even get their own personal lives in check have better technological means than every other person who has lived in the Citadel for thousands of years. Makes PERFECT SENSE. And notice it's not just that the Citadel hasn't been able to MAKE these devices, they aren't even TRYING.

Remember, indoctrination can be applied selectively to certain beings, so we know Reapers have control over who they are indoctrinating.  If the Citadel had the capability of indoctrinating people, Saren and Sovereign would have used that instead of invading.  

I just told you that the Citadel may not be able to control its level of indoctrination and has adapted itself to a level of indoctrination that causes the least control in its subjects while still maintaining some control. Indoctrination does not happen instantly, nor does it seem to happen outside of the Reaper's physical presence (or the presence of their machines, as the artifacts that make people turn themselves into Husks show). You did not once address my point with this response.

[mr. oogie boogie]

I was going to edit it but accidentally posted it. Still bad writing? I don't care.   

Modifié par mr. oogie boogie, 02 mars 2010 - 09:47 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

mr. oogie boogie wrote...

I was going to edit it but accidentally posted it. Still bad writing? I don't care.   

Ignore him

The Mantra of "bad writing" appears far too often on these forums and some people are so utterly convinced that Bioware did a bad job that they will purposely ignore facts to justify it to themselves.

I wonder if there is some kind of indoctrination involved... hmm...

[Proellx]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I wonder if there is some kind of indoctrination involved... hmm...

lol,  "Ah yes, indoctrination" those involved in the "bad writing" mantra have already "dimissed that claim".

[SurfaceBeneath]

Proellx wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I wonder if there is some kind of indoctrination involved... hmm...

lol,  "Ah yes, indoctrination" those involved in the "bad writing" mantra have already "dimissed that claim".

[Massadonious1]

Why does there need to be some ulterior motive behind pretty much everything in this game?

Why can't politicians act like politicians?

Hiding the truth from the general populace? Sounds like a political move to me.

"Ah, common sense. We have dismissed such a notion. I am only acting like a jerk because I have a Reaper messing with my brain."

Modifié par Massadonious1, 02 mars 2010 - 10:34 .

[harazal]

Terraneaux wrote...

harazal wrote...

As others have said, its very easy to explain. Most politicians today operate on the same principles as the council, i.e. small issues, that dont ruffle feathers. Its an accepted fact that we're destroying the enviroment, but no one wants to confront it, because its difficutt, because it would involve hard and unpopular choices.

Imagine now you were one of 3 beings, and you had the final word for trillions of beings. They don't want to admit to the reapers because they're terrified. They don't want to be responsible for the deaths of millions or billions.

We have no idea how aliens behave psychologically, but to advance to the point where they develop space travel they have to have a certain amount of pragmatism.  The scenario you posit would be perfect for the 'publicly deny reapers, privately send support to Shepard while having him gather info on Cerberus' story idea that would have made a lot more sense.  

I'll admit, we don't know how they behave, but i can take a
guess that they behave very like humans. No alien race in the current ME
universe has developed space travel, they found it, delivered to them by the
reapers. Its my belief that this suits the reaper well, because as Mordin
states, there is a direct link between technological development and cultural
development. This had a lot more depth than people realized. The council still
thinks small, because it has never been allowed to grow organically. They can't
take in the big picture, because they never grew up to do it. They're like
school children playing the UN in a massive space station.

The policy of publically denying the reaper threat and then supporting shepard
might have made sense, if they actually supported shepard, but what support did
they actually give him? The fact that they think that one man and one ship
would make a difference against the reapers only reenforces the point that they
dont get the scale and size of the problem. Shepard isn’t God. He only killed
one reaper with the entire 7th fleet behind him. He only killed the collector
ship because he caught them by surprise and used experimental technology stolen
from the turians. He has had almost zero support from the council, because they
actually don't believe him.

The council is locked behind its own backyard politics, and hasn't the wit to grasp the threat, nor the courage to deal with it even if it did.

Modifié par harazal, 02 mars 2010 - 10:30 .

[Srau]

It is lazy writing, just that, lazy writing !

But i hope they will come with a nice explanation in ME3, something like i've seen in another thread : "We couldn't tell you anything because you were working for Cerberus and couldn't risk any intel leak on what was going on".

[tanarri23]

Actually I think the dismissive attitude of the Council and the Alliance makes sense - they have a fleet to rebuild, a Citadel to repair, there don't seem to be any obvious and imminent threats to the Citadel space and nobody gives a damn about what happens to "vermin" in the Terminus. Short-sighted, yes, but realistic...

[Terraneaux]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...
Yes, two yahoos who can't even get their own personal lives in check have better technological means than every other person who has lived in the Citadel for thousands of years. Makes PERFECT SENSE. And notice it's not just that the Citadel hasn't been able to MAKE these devices, they aren't even TRYING.

You know what, I don't need to argue with you, you need to go play ME1 again.  The points I made are in the game; if you don't want to accept them that's your business, I guess.

I just told you that the Citadel may not be able to control its level of indoctrination 

There's no reason to think this.  The Reapers are always shown to be in control of how much and who they indoctrinate.  Essentially you're twisting the rules of how we understand indoctrination to work to make your theory fit; that should be a red flag for anyone with a logical brain to realize that you're reaching, looking for an explanation that is *very* implausible to make your ideas work.  

[WoodWizzard87]

The fact is the council has to decide what is good for billions of sentient lives, and while they wont dismiss the claims of 1 single Spectre, that has only seen a vision once, they still have to base everything off of cold hard facts.



Its basically the difference between people who believe fully into scientific fact and evolution versus someone who believes in creationism and believing is not always seeing. Its a plot line and a good one at that on how the council pushes you away and basically makes you work for cerberus.

[WoodWizzard87]

The fact is the council has to decide what is good for billions of sentient lives, and while they wont dismiss the claims of 1 single Spectre, that has only seen a vision once, they still have to base everything off of cold hard facts.



Its basically the difference between people who believe fully into scientific fact and evolution versus someone who believes in creationism and believing is not always seeing. Its a plot line and a good one at that on how the council pushes you away and basically makes you work for cerberus.

[Proellx]

Terraneaux wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...
Yes, two yahoos who can't even get their own personal lives in check have better technological means than every other person who has lived in the Citadel for thousands of years. Makes PERFECT SENSE. And notice it's not just that the Citadel hasn't been able to MAKE these devices, they aren't even TRYING.

You know what, I don't need to argue with you, you need to go play ME1 again.  The points I made are in the game; if you don't want to accept them that's your business, I guess.

I just told you that the Citadel may not be able to control its level of indoctrination 

There's no reason to think this.  The Reapers are always shown to be in control of how much and who they indoctrinate.  Essentially you're twisting the rules of how we understand indoctrination to work to make your theory fit; that should be a red flag for anyone with a logical brain to realize that you're reaching, looking for an explanation that is *very* implausible to make your ideas work.  

I think your missing the point; Sov's wreckage once intergrated into the citedal by the keepers would enable some low level indoctrinate. this would be a recent event.

[HTTP 404]

the council dont believe me because my shep is black. It is mindboggling to think of the reasons. Bioware may not even know the answer to this yet. we'll see when ME3 comes out...



then Ill say I told you so, they're racists.