619 réponses à ce sujet

[Akeashar]

Actually, you're not a Spectre in ME2, unless you go back to Anderson and choose to accept the Council's offer as being reinstated. Or you could go the Renegade way and tell them to shove their offer where the sun don't shine in which case I doubt they'll offer it back again in ME3. XD

[timedrake32]

codesmurf wrote...

Destroying the collector base makes no sense, it's not a paragon decision, it's a stupid decision. They were building a reaper at the base, so you're going to find some schematics telling you how it work, once you know how it works you can figure out the best way to kill it.

Sheppard is convinced that the reapers are still coming, so why destroy the only real information you have on your enemy? If he didn't want to work with Cerberus, why not make a pit stop at the citadel and get the council or the alliance to send a fleet to secure the base instead of Cerberus. Even if they don't believe you about the reapers, you have enough scans and other evidence to convince them that there is advanced technology that can be had.

I'm just venting because it seems that for ME2, you don't get to choose between being paragon and renegade, you get to choose between being an idiot or being a jerk.

hmmmmm. lets see now TIM would want to build a reaper.... i end my case

[Tinnic]

I think Mordin tells you exactly why you should destroy the Collector base when he compares the Silarians intervening in Krogan civilization as giving cavemen nuclear weapons. That's pretty much how I saw the collector base thing. Not to mention Cerberus is a xenophobic organisation. I mean, I am all for "human domination" if it means that humanity gets to have a little more say in the galactic affairs and have a stronger voice in the council. But I get the feeling Cerberus version of "human domination" might include subjugation and maybe even genocide. That's another reason very good reason to destroy the collector base.



Plus, I don't think there is a single squad member who says "I think you shouldn't have destroyed the collector base". So...

[smudboy]

Tinnic wrote...

I think Mordin tells you exactly why you should destroy the Collector base when he compares the Silarians intervening in Krogan civilization as giving cavemen nuclear weapons. That's pretty much how I saw the collector base thing. Not to mention Cerberus is a xenophobic organisation. I mean, I am all for "human domination" if it means that humanity gets to have a little more say in the galactic affairs and have a stronger voice in the council. But I get the feeling Cerberus version of "human domination" might include subjugation and maybe even genocide. That's another reason very good reason to destroy the collector base.

Plus, I don't think there is a single squad member who says "I think you shouldn't have destroyed the collector base". So...

Except the Krogan's aren't million year old AI trying to destroy every living thing in the universe.

Cerberus is a pro-human group of 150 people trying to save the galaxy, that you spent the entire game helping.  Humanity, it's dominance, or whatever nefarious plot TIM has won't matter unless you stop the Collectors.

TIM with a Collector base vs. The Reapers.  Do the math.

[Nightwriter]

smudboy wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

I think Mordin tells you exactly why you should destroy the Collector base when he compares the Silarians intervening in Krogan civilization as giving cavemen nuclear weapons. That's pretty much how I saw the collector base thing. Not to mention Cerberus is a xenophobic organisation. I mean, I am all for "human domination" if it means that humanity gets to have a little more say in the galactic affairs and have a stronger voice in the council. But I get the feeling Cerberus version of "human domination" might include subjugation and maybe even genocide. That's another reason very good reason to destroy the collector base.

Plus, I don't think there is a single squad member who says "I think you shouldn't have destroyed the collector base". So...

Except the Krogan's aren't million year old AI trying to destroy every living thing in the universe.

Cerberus is a pro-human group of 150 people trying to save the galaxy, that you spent the entire game helping.  Humanity, it's dominance, or whatever nefarious plot TIM has won't matter unless you stop the Collectors.

TIM with a Collector base vs. The Reapers.  Do the math.

I thought we were the krogan, in that analogy...? And the million year old AI would be the salarians...?

[Tinnic]

Nightwriter wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

I think Mordin tells you exactly why you should destroy the Collector base when he compares the Silarians intervening in Krogan civilization as giving cavemen nuclear weapons. That's pretty much how I saw the collector base thing. Not to mention Cerberus is a xenophobic organisation. I mean, I am all for "human domination" if it means that humanity gets to have a little more say in the galactic affairs and have a stronger voice in the council. But I get the feeling Cerberus version of "human domination" might include subjugation and maybe even genocide. That's another reason very good reason to destroy the collector base.

Plus, I don't think there is a single squad member who says "I think you shouldn't have destroyed the collector base". So...

Except the Krogan's aren't million year old AI trying to destroy every living thing in the universe.

Cerberus is a pro-human group of 150 people trying to save the galaxy, that you spent the entire game helping.  Humanity, it's dominance, or whatever nefarious plot TIM has won't matter unless you stop the Collectors.

TIM with a Collector base vs. The Reapers.  Do the math.

I thought we were the krogan, in that analogy...? And the million year old AI would be the salarians...?

Yes humans were the Krogan and the AI were the salarians. What Mordin was trying to explain was that Salarian interference forced Krogans into a situation they were not ready for. The Salarians gave cavemen nuclear weapons. Handing the collector base to the Cerberus is like handing cavemen Nuclear weapons. It was a difficult choice. Especially when you think about how much of an advantage the "new Normandy" that incorporates reaper technology gave you. But when you get where you got with a team with multiple aliens, you can't just think of your own race. Indeed, after I destroyed the base I told off the Illusive man that included the line "I am not going to sacrifice the soul of our species to do it". It might seem a little too idealistic to some people, but for some people, survival at the cost of ideal is not acceptable.

 You can't just think of the reapers who are coming. What happens after the reapers? Shepard has been successful so far, my Shepard didn't even lose a single team mate destroying the collector base. Why would she leave the collector base intact and risk long term repocussion once she stops the reapers? Especially when all indications are that when the time comes, she will have the support of the geth, the arachnide, the qualian fleet and many, many others. Why would she give Cerberus the means to dominate all these other races? You can't just think of the immediate danger in front of you. You consequences have long term ramification and destroying the collector base was the best course of action. The ideal course of action but perhaps not the most pragmatic.

[Turkeysock]

rasblak wrote...

@TurkeySock...

You don't bury your head in the sand by choosing to blow up the base, not at all. You have your own valid reasons.

But you do bury your head in the sand when you deny the quasi-certainty that in a place where they were *building* a reaper you are bound to find technology that will definitely give you a crucial edge in defeating them.

I never said there wasn't any possibility that there was no tech in the base. That is just twisting my words to fit into your argument. What I did say is that any tech that TIM/Cerberus would have found, would have been kept for TIM/Cerberus's use only. Which they would have used for their advantage after the final showdown between a united galactic fleet versus the Reaper fleet, to wipe up who ever is left on either side who did not fall into line with TIM. That doesn't give us any real edge against the Reapers, that gives TIM the edge, against EVERYONE.

rasblak wrote...
So "a reaper factory" is not good enough.. You want BioWare to send you to a place where The Reapers have a full-fledged report outlining in detail every single one of their own weaknesses and viable methods for kicking their own ****es?

Or you needed the Collectors to have put up signs all over the place: "This component here is an explosive battery that regulates the high-speed radial plasma flow within The Reaper. Shoot us here for maximal damage... please."

You really like twisting people's words don't you? I never said that the Collector Base was useless. But I did say that there wouldn't be any actual information about the Reapers at the base aside from the schematics to building them.

And that last bit about the need for signs, that's more of a personal attack on my intelligence... I expected more from you.

rasblak wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...
The data that was stored in the Collectors databanks were most likely wiped before Harbinger released control on the Collector General. And, even if the radiation pulse stopped that from happening, than the databanks are most likely corrupted from the pulse. The possibility of getting any information out of that is close to 0%, and even if you could, what little you get wouldn't be useful at all. And mind you, that is IF the Radiation Pulse affected the systems, if it didn't, the wipe would have deleted any and all information on there.

Also, since the Collectors were pawns, they would have next to no information on the Reapers aside from construction, which is what is most likely on the data pad.

Who's speculating now? Count the occurrences of "most likely", and "if".

It is less speculation than anything you've used in your arguments. It is common practice when an army or people leave a base/fort/building/etc., to DELETE or TAKE whatever information that could be used against said army/person, it is common sense not to leave say a credit card report, or schematics to a classified weapon, lying about for the next inhabitants to find.

Also, as I said, the Collectors are pawns, you don't give pawns any information pertaining to your attack plans or defenses. They were only given the schematics to build a Reaper, and the schematics does tell us weaknesses, something an incomplete Reaper wouldn't be able to give us information about.

But you are correct about my thoughts on the effects of the Radiation Pulse is somewhat speculation. All blasts strong enough create an EMP pulse, since this is a nuclear blast, it only makes sense that there would be an EMP blast. I have no idea how strong it is, and if it would affect the Collector systems. But, it was important to point this out because you guys would have eventually picked up on the possibilities on the effect of the pulse on the Collector systems.

rasblak wrote...
I mean, you can be sure from knowing what TIM has done before what he will do with this place,
but you cannot be sure from knowing that this is a place equipped to build a reaper that you will find technology here that gives you more insight about what makes a reaper tick?

Here's the thing, we all know how TIM works. Any information/tech he gets from the base, he will not share or will only share enough to put us on barely even footing with the Reapers. He is the type of person who sacrifices anyone or anything for his own gains.

Besides, we have the Reaper schematics for Harbinger. Studying this will give us an idea of what kind of weapons the Reapers have, where the armor is thickest/thinnest, and shield information. As we've seen with Sovereign, once their shields are breached, they are like any other ship, very vulnerable.

Modifié par Turkeysock, 04 mars 2010 - 05:04 .

[rasblak]

Turkeysock wrote...
It is less speculation than anything you've used in your arguments.

And I expected better from you.

All I've been saying is that a place where they were building a reaper is bound to contain technology that helps in defeating the reapers. 

Somebody who tells me that I am massively speculating in a such an obvious statement isn't paying much of a compliment to my intelligence either, (specially when I also say that Shepard can choose to blow it up for good reasons, or Shepard can choose to keep it for just as good reasons; up to the player)
hence my having some bit of selfish fun with the "fully-fledged report" and the "signs".

Here's some further "speculation" on my part: the finale playing out in a Collector Base that had nothing of significant value to reveal and added nothing new to the plate except for Shepard having shot more aliens and some mercs is tantamount to a second episode that would have totally sucked. I rest my case.

[smudboy]

Tinnic wrote...

Yes humans were the Krogan and the AI were the salarians. What Mordin was trying to explain was that Salarian interference forced Krogans into a situation they were not ready for. The Salarians gave cavemen nuclear weapons. Handing the collector base to the Cerberus is like handing cavemen Nuclear weapons. It was a difficult choice. Especially when you think about how much of an advantage the "new Normandy" that incorporates reaper technology gave you. But when you get where you got with a team with multiple aliens, you can't just think of your own race. Indeed, after I destroyed the base I told off the Illusive man that included the line "I am not going to sacrifice the soul of our species to do it". It might seem a little too idealistic to some people, but for some people, survival at the cost of ideal is not acceptable.

 You can't just think of the reapers who are coming. What happens after the reapers? Shepard has been successful so far, my Shepard didn't even lose a single team mate destroying the collector base. Why would she leave the collector base intact and risk long term repocussion once she stops the reapers? Especially when all indications are that when the time comes, she will have the support of the geth, the arachnide, the qualian fleet and many, many others. Why would she give Cerberus the means to dominate all these other races? You can't just think of the immediate danger in front of you. You consequences have long term ramification and destroying the collector base was the best course of action. The ideal course of action but perhaps not the most pragmatic.

This is illogical.

Deal with Reapers FIRST.

Then deal with whatever happens after.

The fact that Reapers are playing with "nuclear weapons" and you're not means they win.  Which means the entire galaxy is screwed.

You rationalizing "long term ramifications" or what Cerberus MAY do with "nuclear weapons" are moot when EVERYONE is f*cking DEAD.

Modifié par smudboy, 04 mars 2010 - 10:01 .

[Shep309]

Maybe I'm not putting enough thought into the whole thing, but for me it's always been an easy decision regardless of paragon or renegade alignment.



If I'm playing paragon, there's no hesitation in destroying the base. I don't trust Cerberus or TIM



If I'm playing a renegade, there's no hesitation in destroying the base. I'm a renegade, I'd destroy it just because TIM wants it so bad, plus I don't trust that shady guy. Why would I give TIM even more power than he already has?

[Turkeysock]

rasblak wrote...

And I expected better from you.

All I've been saying is that a place where they were building a reaper is bound to contain technology that helps in defeating the reapers. 

Somebody who tells me that I am massively speculating in a such an obvious statement isn't paying much of a compliment to my intelligence either, (specially when I also say that Shepard can choose to blow it up for good reasons, or Shepard can choose to keep it for just as good reasons; up to the player)
hence my having some bit of selfish fun with the "fully-fledged report" and the "signs".

Here's some further "speculation" on my part: the finale playing out in a Collector Base that had nothing of significant value to reveal and added nothing new to the plate except for Shepard having shot more aliens and some mercs is tantamount to a second episode that would have totally sucked. I rest my case.

Sorry to disagree with you, but I am going off of WHAT WE KNOW. Everything else is speculation. While me, Fenix, and a few others have argued with nothing but facts, those who have supported keeping the base have only argued with speculation that has very little support.

I do agree that your speculations have merits, but again, I am going off of facts that we know, facts that cannot be argued with. While you've argued against facts and evidence against such things as TIM with nothing more than your opinions of him. Now, I'm not saying liking TIM is wrong, he's got an excellent sense of style and he knows how to carry himself. I respect him, but I also fear him, and I don't trust him. That is of course an opinion, derived from everything I've read about him and from what he's said/done in ME2.

I do believe that sometimes, you have to play the bad guy to be the good guy, but I am not going to compromise my ideals and ethics because other people think I should based off of things we do not know. Taking chances is important, but looking beyond the fight with the Reapers, every bone in my body tells me that TIM will stab me in the back the first chance he got because I was in the way. He has done it to others when it became favorable to do so.

I am not trying to sway people from keeping the base or blowing it up. What I argued was that one cannot trust TIM to stay in line and we know the track record of tech directly related to Reapers seem to indoctrinate people. Both are dangerous, but combined together they will be just as dangerous as the Reapers if you allow them the base. That is what I came to after looking at the facts and evidence that we have at hand.

I was not aiming to offend you, but please don't act like a victim. You argued against the facts we know, with speculation. I admit that you have brought up some good points and ideas. But you lack any evidence to back up what you've said, instead everything you've said is based off of what you think might be in there. You cannot win against facts by speculating what could be.

If we were to speculate about what is in the base, than I'd be supporting you on much of what you said.

[flatlander five]

I keep the base...

After you go to the derelict reaper the end-mission summary says something about regularly rotating the staff in the future to avoid indoctrination. So accidental indoctrination is not likely.

If TIM does decide to use the base to make a reaper or do something nefarious he has to realize that Shep knows where the base is, fought across the galaxy to get there, killed a million collectors to get to its core, then wasted a giant terminator before deciding to let Cerberus use it.

Seriously, Shepard deletes data like TIM on the way to REAL errors.

Modifié par flatlander five, 04 mars 2010 - 10:49 .

[Bigdoser]

Turkeysock wrote...

rasblak wrote...

And I expected better from you.

All I've been saying is that a place where they were building a reaper is bound to contain technology that helps in defeating the reapers. 

Somebody who tells me that I am massively speculating in a such an obvious statement isn't paying much of a compliment to my intelligence either, (specially when I also say that Shepard can choose to blow it up for good reasons, or Shepard can choose to keep it for just as good reasons; up to the player)
hence my having some bit of selfish fun with the "fully-fledged report" and the "signs".

Here's some further "speculation" on my part: the finale playing out in a Collector Base that had nothing of significant value to reveal and added nothing new to the plate except for Shepard having shot more aliens and some mercs is tantamount to a second episode that would have totally sucked. I rest my case.

Sorry to disagree with you, but I am going off of WHAT WE KNOW. Everything else is speculation. While me, Fenix, and a few others have argued with nothing but facts, those who have supported keeping the base have only argued with speculation that has very little support.

I do agree that your speculations have merits, but again, I am going off of facts that we know, facts that cannot be argued with. While you've argued against facts and evidence against such things as TIM with nothing more than your opinions of him. Now, I'm not saying liking TIM is wrong, he's got an excellent sense of style and he knows how to carry himself. I respect him, but I also fear him, and I don't trust him. That is of course an opinion, derived from everything I've read about him and from what he's said/done in ME2.

I do believe that sometimes, you have to play the bad guy to be the good guy, but I am not going to compromise my ideals and ethics because other people think I should based off of things we do not know. Taking chances is important, but looking beyond the fight with the Reapers, every bone in my body tells me that TIM will stab me in the back the first chance he got because I was in the way. He has done it to others when it became favorable to do so.

I am not trying to sway people from keeping the base or blowing it up. What I argued was that one cannot trust TIM to stay in line and we know the track record of tech directly related to Reapers seem to indoctrinate people. Both are dangerous, but combined together they will be just as dangerous as the Reapers if you allow them the base. That is what I came to after looking at the facts and evidence that we have at hand.

I was not aiming to offend you, but please don't act like a victim. You argued against the facts we know, with speculation. I admit that you have brought up some good points and ideas. But you lack any evidence to back up what you've said, instead everything you've said is based off of what you think might be in there. You cannot win against facts by speculating what could be.

If we were to speculate about what is in the base, than I'd be supporting you on much of what you said.

This.

[frokenscheim]

rasblak wrote...

frokenscheim wrote...

There's only one thing I really need to know about the Reapers. If you throw enough firepower at them, they die. I learned this from Sovereign. So with my sound strategy of throwing firepower at them until they die, I felt the risks involved in Reaper tech-its inherent risks or the risks resulting from it being in TIM's hands-were not worth it.

You needed Sovereign to teach you that if you throw enough firepower at anything, it dies? Really?

How much is "enough"? How long do your weapons take to dispense that amount of firepower?
More importantly, how much damage do the Reapers do to you in that amount of time? Are you still alive?

In regards to the Reapers, yes, we did. The Sovereign encounter shows that they at least aren't invincible, and before that, given that they are a completely alien technology much older than anything else the Alliance or Citadel races have encountered, for all we know they might've been completely immune to our weapons technology.

But clearly, they aren't. Therefore, as I see it, we don't need to glean any special tricks or secrets from studying their potentially dangerous technology or handing it over to a dangerous individual. We just need to outfight them. Up until now their advantges have been the element of surpirse and the ability to quickly neutralize the galaxy's central authority. They don't have that anymore. Of course, victory's not assured, but we have a fair, fighting chance, and that's enough for me to feel it's not neccessary to accept the risks that come with their technology.

[Tinnic]

smudboy wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

Yes humans were the Krogan and the AI were the salarians. What Mordin was trying to explain was that Salarian interference forced Krogans into a situation they were not ready for. The Salarians gave cavemen nuclear weapons. Handing the collector base to the Cerberus is like handing cavemen Nuclear weapons. It was a difficult choice. Especially when you think about how much of an advantage the "new Normandy" that incorporates reaper technology gave you. But when you get where you got with a team with multiple aliens, you can't just think of your own race. Indeed, after I destroyed the base I told off the Illusive man that included the line "I am not going to sacrifice the soul of our species to do it". It might seem a little too idealistic to some people, but for some people, survival at the cost of ideal is not acceptable.

 You can't just think of the reapers who are coming. What happens after the reapers? Shepard has been successful so far, my Shepard didn't even lose a single team mate destroying the collector base. Why would she leave the collector base intact and risk long term repocussion once she stops the reapers? Especially when all indications are that when the time comes, she will have the support of the geth, the arachnide, the qualian fleet and many, many others. Why would she give Cerberus the means to dominate all these other races? You can't just think of the immediate danger in front of you. You consequences have long term ramification and destroying the collector base was the best course of action. The ideal course of action but perhaps not the most pragmatic.

This is illogical.

Deal with Reapers FIRST.

Then deal with whatever happens after.

The fact that Reapers are playing with "nuclear weapons" and you're not means they win.  Which means the entire galaxy is screwed.

You rationalizing "long term ramifications" or what Cerberus MAY do with "nuclear weapons" are moot when EVERYONE is f*cking DEAD.

Firstly, thinking short term is what led to the genophage. This is were the "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" bit comes in. Genophage and the whole Krogan rebellion is a result of short term thinking by Salarian to counter act the Arackni threat. Which brings me to the immediate implication that it is too dangerous. If you recall the words of the Arackni Queen from ME1, the Arackni were turned into the galactic threat they were because of contact with Sovereign. The herectic geth are a result of contact with Sovereign. How can you be certain, that using the technology within the collector base won't lead to indocternation and other problems? Remember, the Asari matriach in ME1 thought she was acting of her own will. As did Saren.

In addition, some people would rather die then sacrifice their ideals. No matter how logical sacrificing their ideal might seem. I mean, in times of peace, it is easy to stick to high morals and principles. But truly moral and principled people stick to their principles even when times are tough. At the end of the day, this is debate of whether the ends justify the means. Paragon = ends do not justify the means. Renegade = ends by any means. This is why destroying the collector base is a paragon choice.

Destroying the collector base might indeed mean that fighting the Reapers will be that much harder. However, destroying the collector base does not automatically mean defeat, just as not destroying collector base does not guarantee success. So really, not destroying the collector base is the stupid move.

[Serevir]

Because giving The Illusive Man a "Build-Your-Own-Reaper" kit/"Human Smoothie Maker" seems unwise.

[rasblak]

Turkeysock wrote...

I was not aiming to offend you, but please don't act like a victim. You argued against the facts we know, with speculation. I admit that you have brought up some good points and ideas. But you lack any evidence to back up what you've said, instead everything you've said is based off of what you think might be in there. You cannot win against facts by speculating what could be.

If we were to speculate about what is in the base, than I'd be supporting you on much of what you said.

Right. The one acting like a victim is the one who first played  the "personal attack on [his/her] intelligence" card, don't you think?

Answer me this: if we are speculating and it is not a quasi-certainty that the base contains Reaper technology that will give us a better chance in the fight against them, what *more* should BioWare have made EDI say, or shown you, for it to be a quasi-certainty and not speculation?

Answer me this: if you are not speculating and it is a quasi-certainty that TIM will use this place for the wrong purposes in the future, would Shepard be right to shoot TIM for being guilty of treason against X race if he shows up in person for the next briefing after Shepard kept the base?

[Schneidend]

Serevir wrote...

Because giving The Illusive Man a "Build-Your-Own-Reaper" kit/"Human Smoothie Maker" seems unwise.

This. I don't trust anybody with that kind of power.

• Reaper tech. Indoctrination. 'nuff said.
• Human blender. Tens of thousands of dead men, women, and children were processed in it.
• You don't need it. You already have scans and detailed technical schematics from EDI's uplink.

[Mavkiel]

frokenscheim wrote...
In regards to the Reapers, yes, we did. The Sovereign encounter shows that they at least aren't invincible, and before that, given that they are a completely alien technology much older than anything else the Alliance or Citadel races have encountered, for all we know they might've been completely immune to our weapons technology.

But clearly, they aren't. Therefore, as I see it, we don't need to glean any special tricks or secrets from studying their potentially dangerous technology or handing it over to a dangerous individual. We just need to outfight them. Up until now their advantages have been the element of surprise and the ability to quickly neutralize the galaxy's central authority. They don't have that anymore. Of course, victory's not assured, but we have a fair, fighting chance, and that's enough for me to feel it's not necessary to accept the risks that come with their technology.

Just a thought, your assuming that they always relied on suprise. Just because they used the trick on the Protheans and perhaps whomever came before doesn't mean they always use that trick.Heck, Sovereign was bragging about the process being repeated many more times then you could fathom. For all we know every few turns one reaper is elected to come up with an extinction plan. Being immortal and stuck in dark space might be awfully boring, so this is their version of a game show.

Now the reason why I think this is a form of entertainment for them.. I envision a meeting between the reapers after Sovereign bit it.

/begin transcript
Reaper01 asks; "How can we screw with Shepard and get the most giggles out of it?"
Reaper02 says; "How about we create a giant human slushy and use it to make a new reaper"..
Reaper01 says; "Great Idea, only lets make the final product look like a terminator. That will really screw with Shepards head. He/she thinks we are taking him/her seriously? ha. Oh and dont forget the lasers shooting out of the eyes.

/end transcript

Modifié par Mavkiel, 05 mars 2010 - 06:27 .

[frokenscheim]

Mavkiel wrote...

frokenscheim wrote...
In regards to the Reapers, yes, we did. The Sovereign encounter shows that they at least aren't invincible, and before that, given that they are a completely alien technology much older than anything else the Alliance or Citadel races have encountered, for all we know they might've been completely immune to our weapons technology.

But clearly, they aren't. Therefore, as I see it, we don't need to glean any special tricks or secrets from studying their potentially dangerous technology or handing it over to a dangerous individual. We just need to outfight them. Up until now their advantages have been the element of surprise and the ability to quickly neutralize the galaxy's central authority. They don't have that anymore. Of course, victory's not assured, but we have a fair, fighting chance, and that's enough for me to feel it's not necessary to accept the risks that come with their technology.

Just a thought, your assuming that they always relied on suprise. Just because they used the trick on the Protheans and perhaps whomever came before doesn't mean they always use that trick.Heck, Sovereign was bragging about the process being repeated many more times then you could fathom. For all we know every few turns one reaper is elected to come up with an extinction plan. Being immortal and stuck in dark space might be awfully boring, so this is their version of a game show.

Now the reason why I think this is a form of entertainment for them.. I envision a meeting between the reapers after Sovereign bit it.

/begin transcript
Reaper01 asks; "How can we screw with Shepard and get the most giggles out of it?"
Reaper02 says; "How about we create a giant human slushy and use it to make a new reaper"..
Reaper01 says; "Great Idea, only lets make the final product look like a terminator. That will really screw with Shepards head. He/she thinks we are taking him/her seriously? ha. Oh and dont forget the lasers shooting out of the eyes.

/end transcript

It's true, we can't say exactly how all the other Reaper purges went down, but given the link between the Reapers and the Citadel, I believe the Reapers have been carrying off their plan in more or less exactly the same way for just about as long as they've been doing it, and the only reason this iteration hasn't panned out is the intervention of the Protheans the last time around. And I also believe the Reapers really needed the edge that tried and true plan gave them, and without it won't be so easy for them to sweep in and dominate.

[smudboy]

Tinnic wrote...

Firstly, thinking short term is what led to the genophage. This is were the "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" bit comes in. Genophage and the whole Krogan rebellion is a result of short term thinking by Salarian to counter act the Arackni threat. Which brings me to the immediate implication that it is too dangerous. If you recall the words of the Arackni Queen from ME1, the Arackni were turned into the galactic threat they were because of contact with Sovereign. The herectic geth are a result of contact with Sovereign. How can you be certain, that using the technology within the collector base won't lead to indocternation and other problems? Remember, the Asari matriach in ME1 thought she was acting of her own will. As did Saren.

Yes, the Rachni were a threat because of the REAPERS.  The Turian/Solarians did what they could to protect the galaxy from the Rachni threat, via the Genophage.

The heretic geth were because of the REAPERS.

The REAPERS are the MAIN ENEMY we must STOP at ALL COSTS.  Or else none of what you say has any value.  BECAUSE EVERYONE/THING IS DEAD.

In addition, some people would rather die then sacrifice their ideals. No matter how logical sacrificing their ideal might seem. I mean, in times of peace, it is easy to stick to high morals and principles. But truly moral and principled people stick to their principles even when times are tough. At the end of the day, this is debate of whether the ends justify the means. Paragon = ends do not justify the means. Renegade = ends by any means. This is why destroying the collector base is a paragon choice.

Ideals are nice.  When you're alive.  Principled or otherwise, any line of thought that gets you killed is stupid.

Destroying the collector base might indeed mean that fighting the Reapers will be that much harder. However, destroying the collector base does not automatically mean defeat, just as not destroying collector base does not guarantee success. So really, not destroying the collector base is the stupid move.

If the chances of success in defeating the REAPERS are higher in doing something, you f@cking do it.  The alternative is galactric genocide.

Obviously, you don't go around doing in-humane experiments.  But we have a thing (let's call it a base) that makes REAPERS.  You f!cking figure out how the hell that works, because our enemies are REAPERS.  And after two games, we still no d!ck and all about them.  Every other possible outcome of that is a secondary issue to be dealt with later, and worth the risk.

Have you done the math yet?

By your logic:
Destroying the base might mean defeat.
Not destroying the base might mean victory.
Therefore, not destroying the base is stupid.

What?  If we want victory, that doesn't make sense.  Again, you are illogical.  I daresay stupid.  But you just wrote, and proved, that.

In reality:
Destroying the base decreases the chances for victory.
Not destroying the base increases the chances for victory.
Therefore, don't destroy the base.

No one has guarantees here.  But certainly having something that literally births your enemy: this is an important find.

Your stance is "it's too dangerous."  But the REAPERS are what's too dangerous.  You have to STOP them.  That's what the story and goal of Shepard is all about.  You need as much information on a threat of that magnitude.  To hell with you not liking Cerberus, "it conflicts with my ideals" bullcrap.  Go home and play philosopher while real men deal with the problem.

I've listed these before, but apparently you can't understand.  I figured two of these out myself, but these are from Shamus:
1) Proof.  The thing that the entire galaxy needs to believe in you, that REAPERS are real.
2) Memorial.  Who died, how, giving the families a sense of closure.
3) Technology.  We're fighting a war here.  Every little bit of technology to potentially develop or use, helps.
4) Intel. Anything and everything we can learn about the REAPERS.

This is obvious.

[zer0netgain]

Computron2000 wrote...

[snip]

1.  I agree that letting TIM have the base is a huge risk.  Personally, I see no way to easily justifying destroying the best source you have to explore Reaper tech and devise a means to defeat it.  However, if the only option is to leave it in the hands of someone like TIM who has an agenda, it's a hard call either way.

2.  Indoctrination seems limited to being WITHIN a Reaper, not just around the technology.  The Collector base isn't a Reaper, so Indoctrination might not be a concern.

3.  If you read the codex on the Thanix cannon, it's modeled on Soverign's weapon.  Any mass accelerated fast enough has a devastating effect on armor and shields.  The Thanix is simply that much better than the stock cannons a ship is equipped with.

4.  Why not forget about TIM and call the Alliance?  Good idea...that ranks up with, "How come the middle option for dealing with the Rachni queen didn't involve keeping her caged and notifying the Council to send a team to determine what THEY wanted to do with her?"

[rasblak]

smudboy wrote...
By your logic:
Destroying the base might mean defeat.
Not destroying the base might mean victory.
Therefore, not destroying the base is stupid.

Muahahahaha! Priceless.
It's for these kinds of priceless gems that I keep up with those threads.

Dude, keep them coming, I totally LOL'ed on that one.

[Tinnic]

smudboy wrote...

If the chances of success in defeating the REAPERS are higher in doing something, you f@cking do it.  The alternative is galactric genocide.

Obviously, you don't go around doing in-humane experiments.  But we have a thing (let's call it a base) that makes REAPERS.  You f!cking figure out how the hell that works, because our enemies are REAPERS.  And after two games, we still no d!ck and all about them.  Every other possible outcome of that is a secondary issue to be dealt with later, and worth the risk.

Have you done the math yet?

By your logic:
Destroying the base might mean defeat.
Not destroying the base might mean victory.
Therefore, not destroying the base is stupid.

What?  If we want victory, that doesn't make sense.  Again, you are illogical.  I daresay stupid.  But you just wrote, and proved, that.

In reality:
Destroying the base decreases the chances for victory.
Not destroying the base increases the chances for victory.
Therefore, don't destroy the base.

No one has guarantees here.  But certainly having something that literally births your enemy: this is an important find.

Your stance is "it's too dangerous."  But the REAPERS are what's too dangerous.  You have to STOP them.  That's what the story and goal of Shepard is all about.  You need as much information on a threat of that magnitude.  To hell with you not liking Cerberus, "it conflicts with my ideals" bullcrap.  Go home and play philosopher while real men deal with the problem.

I've listed these before, but apparently you can't understand.  I figured two of these out myself, but these are from Shamus:
1) Proof.  The thing that the entire galaxy needs to believe in you, that REAPERS are real.
2) Memorial.  Who died, how, giving the families a sense of closure.
3) Technology.  We're fighting a war here.  Every little bit of technology to potentially develop or use, helps.
4) Intel. Anything and everything we can learn about the REAPERS.

This is obvious.

Twist my words if you want but when leaving the base intact = a maybe chance of increase victory but a near guaranteed chance of things going wrong in the long run. It is stupid to leave the base intact. If you aren't willing to stick to your ideals then don't have them. It's as simple as that. Survival at all costs is not a good thing. Paragons understand this and that is why the paragon choice is destroying the base. Paragons die for the sake of their ideals, they don't renounce it to save their own skin.

Besides which, by your logic, if the illusive man turns around and says that the best way to defeat the reapers is to create a reaper you would agree with it. If he then says he will round up ten and thousands of volunteers to make this reaper, which will be under Shepard's control and using this reaper, the victory against the reapers is all but guaranteed. According to you, you would go along with it because the alternative is galactic genocide. Thus, the ends justify the means.

I am saying that ends never justify the means. Even if we all end up dead. It is important to stick to ideals and principles. There are lines that should not be crossed period. Giving the collector base to someone as dangerous and without control as the Illusive Man is such a line. He has no checks and balances upon him but his own conscience and he has in the past demonstrated he can do a lot of things with a clear conscience that other would not.

As for all those points you listed, all of them are negated by the fact that the base will be under the Illusive Man's control. 

1) Proof - The Illusive Man doesn't care about the council or the alliance. In fact, he would be the happiest man in the universe if the Alien Council got taken out by the Reapers and the alliance crushed. He is not going to use the base to rally people to the cause of against the reapers.

2) Memorial - whole colonies were abducted. Apart from the Horizon colony where half of the people were left behind, there aren't no families for "memorial" and I very much doubt the Illusive Man is going to bother with contact family members of the dead even if some of their loved ones were not present in the colony when the collectors hit.

3) Technology - too dangerous and again, the technology would be doled out at the will of the Illusive Man. 

4) Intel - again, all intel from the base would be controlled by the Illusive Man and he will let you know what he wants you to know

You seem to having a hard time grasping the fact that you are not taking the base for yourself. You are taking the base for the Illusive Man. Do you trust the Illusive Man? If you do, great for you. Keep the base, give it to him. I do not trust the Illusive Man. I think he is fully capable of using the base for acts of depravity all in the name of the greater good. He is capable of rounding up Asari, Drell, Turians and even humans putting them in a blender and manufacturing a reaper out of them that he can use to fight the other reapers. The Illusive Man is the ultimate renegade. He will reach his ends no matter what the means. That alone is the reason to blow-up the base.

[BurstAngel75]

smudboy wrote...

Ideals are nice.  When you're alive.  Principled or otherwise, any line of thought that gets you killed is stupid.

People have died for what they believe in since the beginning of time. You call them stupid, the rest of the world AND history calls them heroes.