619 réponses à ce sujet

[rasblak]

This is Awesome! Who would have thought.. Ideals, Principles, Dying for my galaxy.. who would have thought a worthless collector base could bring up all those considerations?



As for me, "The Reapers might get a shot clean through my armour. I'll be ok and swim in antibiotics if need be. But I'm not gonna die for ideals in the middle of a trilogy. That's just insulting!"

[smudboy]

Tinnic wrote...
Twist my words if you want but when leaving the base intact = a maybe chance of increase victory but a near guaranteed chance of things going wrong in the long run. It is stupid to leave the base intact. If you aren't willing to stick to your ideals then don't have them. It's as simple as that. Survival at all costs is not a good thing. Paragons understand this and that is why the paragon choice is destroying the base. Paragons die for the sake of their ideals, they don't renounce it to save their own skin.

"a near guaranteed chance of things going wrong" is speculation in your colorful little brain.

How is it stupid to leave the base as is?  I've explained already how helpful it might be.

What ideals do you think I have that I shouldn't?

Survival at all costs is survival.   Hey!  Here's a thought: living is a very good thing.

A dead paragaon with ideals is still dead.

Besides which, by your logic, if the illusive man turns around and says that the best way to defeat the reapers is to create a reaper you would agree with it. If he then says he will round up ten and thousands of volunteers to make this reaper, which will be under Shepard's control and using this reaper, the victory against the reapers is all but guaranteed. According to you, you would go along with it because the alternative is galactic genocide. Thus, the ends justify the means.

1) "If"., 2) "If", again.  Nice fantasy world you have there.

The logic that creating a Reaper is the best way to defeat a Reaper is borderline drug-induced retarded.  What are they gonna do, hold a boxing match?  Do you flush after you go?

I am saying that ends never justify the means. Even if we all end up dead. It is important to stick to ideals and principles. There are lines that should not be crossed period. Giving the collector base to someone as dangerous and without control as the Illusive Man is such a line. He has no checks and balances upon him but his own conscience and he has in the past demonstrated he can do a lot of things with a clear conscience that other would not.

The ideals and principles of what?  The line that "We’ll beat [the Reapers] without sacrificing the soul of our species" by Shepard?  That is retarded.  How is keeping a base "sacrificing the soul" of our species?  What does that even mean?

What lines should not be crossed?  Studying something which kills people isn't inherently evil or bad.  If that's the case, you wouldn't have used a gun, or researched any weapon upgrade.  Just because the Reapers played "will it blend?" with 100k+ humans doesn't mean we should just burn it all.  We should understand what they were doing, how they were doing it, and why.  WE NEED TO.  Not only because a human terminator was ridiculously hilarious, but (luckily) the Reaper/Collector agenda was so daft and baffling, I have no idea wtf was going on.

As for all those points you listed, all of them are negated by the fact that the base will be under the Illusive Man's control.

Yes.  Because anything the Illusive man touches, negates my argument.  The Illusive man was the only fellow 1) doing anything about the Collectors, 2) brought Shepard back to do something about it, 3) providing Shepard with almost all resources to do 2).  After all he's done, why can't he be trusted?

His method may be TOO EXTREME for your girly little ethical framework from Lollypop Land to take, but Shepard and TIM get sh!t done, son.

1) Proof - The Illusive Man doesn't care about the council or the alliance. In fact, he would be the happiest man in the universe if the Alien Council got taken out by the Reapers and the alliance crushed. He is not going to use the base to rally people to the cause of against the reapers.

TIM states that the Alliance is run too thin. The Council have no jurisdiction in the Terminus systems, and can't act on a human problem.
www.youtube.com/watch go to 4:20.  "If you think you can convince them, by all means."  He's not against having other groups help.  Looks like he could use the base to rally others to help fight the Reapers.  I'm not saying he WILL, I'm saying there's an argument for it.

OH BUT TIM IS RUTHLESS DUR DUR DUR TIM REAPER

2) Memorial - whole colonies were abducted. Apart from the Horizon colony where half of the people were left behind, there aren't no families for "memorial" and I very much doubt the Illusive Man is going to bother with contact family members of the dead even if some of their loved ones were not present in the colony when the collectors hit.

Um, yeah there are.  Hundreds of thousands who didn't live on the colonies.  Heck, you even get an email from one asking for your help on any information of what happened to their missing family member.

How do you know TIM isn't going to bother?  Oh right, it's that colorful imagination of yours again.

3) Technology - too dangerous and again, the technology would be doled out at the will of the Illusive Man. 

How is something too dangerous?  What makes it too dangerous?  What makes TIM having the Collector base to develop or learn new technology too dangerous?  Brain.  Color.

4) Intel - again, all intel from the base would be controlled by the Illusive Man and he will let you know what he wants you to know

Considering he's the guy who's got you this far, and he's got a large information network, I don't see that as a problem.  Especially if one STOPS the REAPERS which is the POINT of the entire story.

You seem to having a hard time grasping the fact that you are not taking the base for yourself. You are taking the base for the Illusive Man. Do you trust the Illusive Man? If you do, great for you. Keep the base, give it to him. I do not trust the Illusive Man. I think he is fully capable of using the base for acts of depravity all in the name of the greater good. He is capable of rounding up Asari, Drell, Turians and even humans putting them in a blender and manufacturing a reaper out of them that he can use to fight the other reapers. The Illusive Man is the ultimate renegade. He will reach his ends no matter what the means. That alone is the reason to blow-up the base.

I do not think he fully capable of using the base for what you speak.  There is no indication of that in ME1 or ME2.

Again, galactic Reaper boxing match isn't going to happen.  Unless the writers have already jumped the shark (i.e. hasta la vista.)

Oh yes.  The guy who cheated death to bring Shepard back, outfitted him with a ship and crew, upgraded him, spent whatever time and money it took to get the job done, was the only guy capable and caring enough to do something about the 100k+ colonists missing.  Yes.  His intentinos are clearly nefarious, evil, and make him "the ultimate renegade."

/laughs

But yeah.  Blow up the base, because TIM IS (potentially going to be) EVIL.

[smudboy]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Ideals are nice.  When you're alive.  Principled or otherwise, any line of thought that gets you killed is stupid.

People have died for what they believe in since the beginning of time. You call them stupid, the rest of the world AND history calls them heroes.

People weren't around since the beginning of time.

Please explain the ideals of destroying the Collector Base.  (No wait, don't.)

Please explain the ideals of keeping the Collector Base.  I still don't know if there are any.

You can't even compare the ideas of of some dead soldiers in human history, to the impending doom of galactic genocide.  It's completely illogical and retarded.  Does not compute.

DID YOU KNOW THE REAPERS ARE STILL OUT THERE?  DO SOMETHING!

[Jagri]

Humanity is illogical and the Collecters Base is a means to our own self destruction. Now rather then go on a long rant about how I am right I suggest giving a gun to 8 year old kid and see if thats a good idea.

[Barquiel]

"The Illusive man thinks he has the wisdom to utilize it, but he does not." I agree with Samara.

But I think it doesn't make a huge difference...
EDI scanned the base's database and received all the available data on the reapers. I doubt the Collectors have anything that will help against the reaper fleet (the collector ship isn't that advanced/ Normandy2 > collector ship). Their tech is useless unless you want to make a reaper (= stupid plan)

Modifié par Barquiel, 05 mars 2010 - 06:55 .

[Trenrade]

its not saving the collector base that is the renegade decision it is handing it over to TIM....

[Jagri]

True enough a damaged SR2 Normandy Frigate at 30 percent barrier strength was able to destroy a Collecter Ship the size of a Cruiser. That alone has proven that Turian weapon techology, Quarian shield tech, and Alliance ship armor is greater then what the Collecters could muster and likely reflect on the Reapers.

[Turkeysock]

rasblak wrote...

Right. The one acting like a victim is the one who first played  the "personal attack on [his/her] intelligence" card, don't you think?

I do believe that whole sign comment was more of an intentional attack on my intelligence. I called it out, I didn't play the victim card, I called it out and you played the victim card. And now you are once against twisting what I said to fit into your argument>.>

rasblak wrote...
Answer me this: if we are speculating and it is not a quasi-certainty that the base contains Reaper technology that will give us a better chance in the fight against them, what *more* should BioWare have made EDI say, or shown you, for it to be a quasi-certainty and not speculation?

I am arguing with facts that we know about both TIM and Reaper tech. You are arguing with speculation of what the base MIGHT hold. It is pure speculation that there is anything that might help out TIM in coming up with a way to defeat the Reapers. And, even if EDI said there was a ton of info and tech to get, I still would've blown up the base because of TIM.

rasblak wrote...
Answer me this: if you are not speculating and it is a quasi-certainty that TIM will use this place for the wrong purposes in the future, would Shepard be right to shoot TIM for being guilty of treason against X race if he shows up in person for the next briefing after Shepard kept the base?

It's not a "quasi-certainty" that TIM will use whatever he gets from the base for his own gain, it's fact. Why you keep trying to pretend that TIM is not the person who would pull that when EVERY case has shown us that if there is power he can gain from it and he can control it, he will do it.

And no, I would not shoot him if I ever met him personally. I'd arrest him, and turn him over to the Council. He's commited a lot of crimes in the name of humanity, but from what we know, none of those have ever actually benefitted humanity. And we also know that TIM only doles out info or tech when he deemed it necessary.

It's easy to win by speculating what is in the base, because it's always the "what if" scenario, and people love "what if" things, especially if it gets them an advantage over something/someone. But that doesn't cut it, especially when your dealing with someone like TIM. Why is that? Because people like TIM aren't "what if", they always do the same thing. TIM is about human dominance under Cerberus, and Cerberus is TIM, he'll work with/tolerate anyone as long as their goals match, but once that goal is achieved/or failed, he will kill you if you angered him.

Modifié par Turkeysock, 05 mars 2010 - 07:36 .

[Daralii]

Jagri wrote...

True enough a damaged SR2 Normandy Frigate at 30 percent barrier strength was able to destroy a Collecter Ship the size of a Cruiser. That alone has proven that Turian weapon techology, Quarian shield tech, and Alliance ship armor is greater then what the Collecters could muster and likely reflect on the Reapers.

The Thanix was reverse-engineered from Sovereign's main guns actually, so it makes sense a weapon taken from a ship with the strength of a dreadnought would manage to take out a cruiser.

On topic, I feel the need to mention the Conduit; engineered by the Protheans based on Reaper tech. Even though it helped to slow down the next cycle indirectly, it gave Saren's synthetic army easy passage into the Presidium; the fact something intended for research alone and put in the hands of several researchers gave the Reapers a contingency plan, it wouldn't surprise me if reverse-engineered Reaper tech designed for military purposes and put into the hands of a madman could be much worse.

[Halmiriliath]

smudboy wrote...

People weren't around since the beginning of time.

Please explain the ideals of destroying the Collector Base.  (No wait, don't.)

Please explain the ideals of keeping the Collector Base.  I still don't know if there are any.

You can't even compare the ideas of of some dead soldiers in human history, to the impending doom of galactic genocide.  It's completely illogical and retarded.  Does not compute.

DID YOU KNOW THE REAPERS ARE STILL OUT THERE?  DO SOMETHING!

That's quite a big distortion of human history you've made there. 'Some dead soldiers'? People - not just soldiers - have been dying for different sets of ideals since time immemorial. The early Christian martyrs; the Crusaders; Jihadists; Catholic and Protestant martyrs; men who flocked to their nation's banner in both world wars; suicide bombers. Need I go on? And although it may not seem to us that these people faced galactic genocide, it certainly did to them. They willingly faced torture or death rather than compromise the principles they felt were under threat of being extinguished. Whether we feel they were right or not is irrelevant - they believed it to be right.

This applies to the topic in question. If a person believes liquidating humans is wrong, why would said person use technology based around the liquidation of sentient life to seek an edge in an upcoming battle for such lives? This is obviously all subjective, but I believe there is more to life than self-preservation. 

[BurstAngel75]

smudboy wrote...

BurstAngel75 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Ideals are nice.  When you're alive.  Principled or otherwise, any line of thought that gets you killed is stupid.

People have died for what they believe in since the beginning of time. You call them stupid, the rest of the world AND history calls them heroes.

People weren't around since the beginning of time.

Please explain the ideals of destroying the Collector Base.  (No wait, don't.)

Please explain the ideals of keeping the Collector Base.  I still don't know if there are any.

You can't even compare the ideas of of some dead soldiers in human history, to the impending doom of galactic genocide.  It's completely illogical and retarded.  Does not compute.

DID YOU KNOW THE REAPERS ARE STILL OUT THERE?  DO SOMETHING!

You have become insulting. The more you rant, the more you lose this conversation. You are angry because you don't understand that morality DOES have impact to the situation at hand. I was a soldier and I am married to one, we have never seen combat (yet) but we understand thoroughly what it means to get the job done. In the military, destroying the collector base would be considered as "taking the higher ground." Whenever a field leader decides to take a moral "higher ground",he tends to win the battle more often than losing it. Taking a more moral position tend to have a greater benefit in the long run.

I think I'm done with this thread. It has stopped being a conversation. I feel that you have no respect for those who decided to destroy the base. And the more you continue, the more you attack.

[Jagri]

Daralii wrote...

Jagri wrote...

True enough a damaged SR2 Normandy Frigate at 30 percent barrier strength was able to destroy a Collecter Ship the size of a Cruiser. That alone has proven that Turian weapon techology, Quarian shield tech, and Alliance ship armor is greater then what the Collecters could muster and likely reflect on the Reapers.

The Thanix was reverse-engineered from Sovereign's main guns actually, so it makes sense a weapon taken from a ship with the strength of a dreadnought would manage to take out a cruiser.

True enough but did you know the Turian's miniaturized so can be mounted on a fighter? A simple fighter craft now has the capability to surpass a Crusier in fire power! I say if we have a fleet of said fighters produced the Reapers would be in trouble.

So we already have the technology to defeat them Shepard just needs allies who would take his message seriously and put these weapons in to mass production.

Modifié par Jagri, 05 mars 2010 - 08:42 .

[BurstAngel75]

Halmiriliath wrote...

smudboy wrote...

People weren't around since the beginning of time.

Please explain the ideals of destroying the Collector Base.  (No wait, don't.)

Please explain the ideals of keeping the Collector Base.  I still don't know if there are any.

You can't even compare the ideas of of some dead soldiers in human history, to the impending doom of galactic genocide.  It's completely illogical and retarded.  Does not compute.

DID YOU KNOW THE REAPERS ARE STILL OUT THERE?  DO SOMETHING!

That's quite a big distortion of human history you've made there. 'Some dead soldiers'? People - not just soldiers - have been dying for different sets of ideals since time immemorial. The early Christian martyrs; the Crusaders; Jihadists; Catholic and Protestant martyrs; men who flocked to their nation's banner in both world wars; suicide bombers. Need I go on? And although it may not seem to us that these people faced galactic genocide, it certainly did to them. They willingly faced torture or death rather than compromise the principles they felt were under threat of being extinguished. Whether we feel they were right or not is irrelevant - they believed it to be right.

This applies to the topic in question. If a person believes liquidating humans is wrong, why would said person use technology based around the liquidation of sentient life to seek an edge in an upcoming battle for such lives? This is obviously all subjective, but I believe there is more to life than self-preservation. 

Thank you, you did a far better job than I in explaining this situation.

[smudboy]

Halmiriliath wrote...

That's quite a big distortion of human history you've made there. 'Some dead soldiers'? People - not just soldiers - have been dying for different sets of ideals since time immemorial. The early Christian martyrs; the Crusaders; Jihadists; Catholic and Protestant martyrs; men who flocked to their nation's banner in both world wars; suicide bombers. Need I go on? And although it may not seem to us that these people faced galactic genocide, it certainly did to them. They willingly faced torture or death rather than compromise the principles they felt were under threat of being extinguished. Whether we feel they were right or not is irrelevant - they believed it to be right.

This applies to the topic in question. If a person believes liquidating humans is wrong, why would said person use technology based around the liquidation of sentient life to seek an edge in an upcoming battle for such lives? This is obviously all subjective, but I believe there is more to life than self-preservation. 

You cannot compare galactic genocide to anything in human history.  I can't even think that big.  Those religious fellows believing in their ridiculous notions doesn't make them less stupid.  You might think they're honorable, right, heroes or whatever.  Perhaps if they were more informed, and had a better understanding of things, then, they'd have made better decisions.

What's that?  Informed?  Better decisions?  Oh right.  Information.  How do we get information?  Our senses.  Science.  Reason.

What's that?  We've got a big ol database from an enemy birthing center, full of information?  Our enemy wants to destroy all life, ever?  And have been doing so since time immemorial?  Well, why don't we figure out wtf that's all about then.

What?  You want to blow it up?  Because you've got some idealistic view that The Super Big Human Gulp is wrong?  Because you don't trust your boss, the guy's whose been doing everything right?  Of course the base is wrong.  It liquifies humans.  Who said anything about it being right?  That's one of the many reason TO study it.  Shepard's a dog of Cerberus because the writer said so.  TIM's not perfect, but he's the ONLY chance you've got.  Them's the breaks.

Man cannot live on bread alone.  But first, he must have bread.  Taking away the chances of your survival because you  have all these wonderful ideals of yours, like the Scawy Big Bad Collecto Bwase might be used improperly on humans by the pro-human Man Upstairs is childish.  And stupid.  You're arguing what may happen later IF you defeat the Reapers would be worse, IF the entire universe didn't go bang, so that negates all potential information from the base.

The reality is war.  It's messy.  People die.  The idealism of destroying the base "because it liquifies humans" and "I think TIM is evil and HE MUST PAY for tricking me grr" is an A=A, (and emotional) argument.  It's speculative, bordering on insulting.

If you need to order a soldier to die, so the rest of your squad can live, you do it.  You may not like whatever ideals of yours that are being compromised, but that's reality.  You do it.

In this case, there's absolutely no reason to blow up the base, unless you simply don't like the way TIM talks to you.  Which unfortunately makes you an idiot.

[smudboy]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

You have become insulting. The more you rant, the more you lose this conversation. You are angry because you don't understand that morality DOES have impact to the situation at hand. I was a soldier and I am married to one, we have never seen combat (yet) but we understand thoroughly what it means to get the job done. In the military, destroying the collector base would be considered as "taking the higher ground." Whenever a field leader decides to take a moral "higher ground",he tends to win the battle more often than losing it. Taking a more moral position tend to have a greater benefit in the long run.

I think I'm done with this thread. It has stopped being a conversation. I feel that you have no respect for those who decided to destroy the base. And the more you continue, the more you attack.

Really?  I do that when reason and logic don't work.

I'm not angry.  I just like telling dumb people off.  You know, those that don't understand reason, and logic.

How is destroying the collector base "taking the higher ground"?  What moral dilemma went through your head that would put that on higher ground than not destroying it?  I'm curious.

Okay.  So because of your personal feelings, a field leader who takes moral "higher grounds" tends to have greater benefit in the long run.

I'm sure the Reapers will be glad to hear that when you tell them that story.

"Hey!  I decided not to study my enemy and attack him anyway!"

Good luck with that.  Hell, good luck with that outside the game...

[BurstAngel75]

"Good luck with that. Hell, good luck with that outside the game..."

You don't have the right to be so arrogant towards me. Yes, my convictions has served me well, thank you very much. People have counted on me and consider me as a leader for it, and it has served them well.

This is your warning, back off from the insulting everyone. No one here is dumb, not even you. don't ruin this conversation by making personal insults to everyone who disagrees with you. There are valid points to keeping the base as well as destroying it. The only way we'll see the outcome of this decsion is in ME3. Until then, we can only spectulation so keep it civilzed. Or I will bring you up with the mediators.

[ki-valdez]

because its the right thing to do

[Halmiriliath]

smudboy wrote...

You cannot compare galactic genocide to anything in human history.  I can't even think that big.  Those religious fellows believing in their ridiculous notions doesn't make them less stupid.  You might think they're honorable, right, heroes or whatever.  Perhaps if they were more informed, and had a better understanding of things, then, they'd have made better decisions.

What's that?  Informed?  Better decisions?  Oh right.  Information.  How do we get information?  Our senses.  Science.  Reason.

What's that?  We've got a big ol database from an enemy birthing center, full of information?  Our enemy wants to destroy all life, ever?  And have been doing so since time immemorial?  Well, why don't we figure out wtf that's all about then.

What?  You want to blow it up?  Because you've got some idealistic view that The Super Big Human Gulp is wrong?  Because you don't trust your boss, the guy's whose been doing everything right?  Of course the base is wrong.  It liquifies humans.  Who said anything about it being right?  That's one of the many reason TO study it.  Shepard's a dog of Cerberus because the writer said so.  TIM's not perfect, but he's the ONLY chance you've got.  Them's the breaks.

Man cannot live on bread alone.  But first, he must have bread.  Taking away the chances of your survival because you  have all these wonderful ideals of yours, like the Scawy Big Bad Collecto Bwase might be used improperly on humans by the pro-human Man Upstairs is childish.  And stupid.  You're arguing what may happen later IF you defeat the Reapers would be worse, IF the entire universe didn't go bang, so that negates all potential information from the base.

The reality is war.  It's messy.  People die.  The idealism of destroying the base "because it liquifies humans" and "I think TIM is evil and HE MUST PAY for tricking me grr" is an A=A, (and emotional) argument.  It's speculative, bordering on insulting.

If you need to order a soldier to die, so the rest of your squad can live, you do it.  You may not like whatever ideals of yours that are being compromised, but that's reality.  You do it.

In this case, there's absolutely no reason to blow up the base, unless you simply don't like the way TIM talks to you.  Which unfortunately makes you an idiot.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, because you're argument is both disjointed and makes fundamental assumptions about my reasoning that simply aren't true. I don't believe the Illusive Man is evil - in fact, I rarely call anyone 'evil' - but he is instead the paradigm of a pragmatist. He does whatever he feels is necessary to get a job done, regardless of moral foibles. I don't take that approach, because I believe one's principles are more important than conveniently avoiding them when you feel they get in the way of what you're trying to do.

Regarding knowledge about the Reapers, I would be all for acquiring more information about them, but Reaper technology has a habit of warping people's minds before they can get what they want from them. I'm not sure how you'd acquire it otherwise, but there's always another way.

Two more things: ideals are not childish, and 'those religious fellows' are not ridiculous, and nor are their ideals. Science and 'reason' aren't everything - a belief in the supernatural or divine is not something to be scoffed at. If someone believes there is more to their existence than this life, then surely you can see that they would stick to their principles in this life - regardess of the consequences - rather than being punished for abrogating them in the next.

Hmm, I seem to be going down an existential path here...

[Turkeysock]

smudboy wrote...
You cannot compare galactic genocide to anything in human history.  I can't even think that big.  Those religious fellows believing in their ridiculous notions doesn't make them less stupid.  You might think they're honorable, right, heroes or whatever.  Perhaps if they were more informed, and had a better understanding of things, then, they'd have made better decisions.

Yes and no. Yes that we can't really compare events in human history to galactic genocide. No in the event that you think those who fought for what they believe is stupid. At the time of any event, we have only our perspectives of said event. They lived in a time when it took weeks to travel from the southern tip of Italy to the northern shores of France. Information was based solely on what a person saw and recorded. They didn't have all the high tech equipment we have now, and even if they did, they most likely would have made the same decisions.

smudboy wrote...
What's that?  Informed?  Better decisions?  Oh right.  Information.  How do we get information?  Our senses.  Science.  Reason.

Excellent sarcasm!

smudboy wrote...
What's that?  We've got a big ol database from an enemy birthing center, full of information?  Our enemy wants to destroy all life, ever?  And have been doing so since time immemorial?  Well, why don't we figure out wtf that's all about then.

Odd, because common sense dictates that when you abandon a base, you usually take or destroy all information in the base. It is VERY unlikely that Harbinger would've left a nice big ol' database full of info for us to go and pick at.

smudboy wrote...
What?  You want to blow it up?  Because you've got some idealistic view that The Super Big Human Gulp is wrong?  Because you don't trust your boss, the guy's whose been doing everything right?  Of course the base is wrong.  It liquifies humans.  Who said anything about it being right?  That's one of the many reason TO study it.  Shepard's a dog of Cerberus because the writer said so.  TIM's not perfect, but he's the ONLY chance you've got.  Them's the breaks.

Actually most arguments on here have stated the whole human liquidification thing as one of the minor reasons for blowing up the base>.> On the other hand, everything we know about TIM and Cerberus is that they do unethical experiments to further THEIR goals. TIM is someone you can't trust. Some of his actions were necessary during the mission, IE leaking info about Kaiden/Ashley being on Horizon to attract the Collectors. But overall, he's a megalomaniac.

Also, Shepard isn't a dog of Cerberus, he's working with Cerberus because their goals are similar. TIM will work with anyone as long as their goals are similar. And he's not the "only" chance the galaxy has. Shepard is.

smudboy wrote...
Man cannot live on bread alone.  But first, he must have bread.  Taking away the chances of your survival because you  have all these wonderful ideals of yours, like the Scawy Big Bad Collecto Bwase might be used improperly on humans by the pro-human Man Upstairs is childish.  And stupid.  You're arguing what may happen later IF you defeat the Reapers would be worse, IF the entire universe didn't go bang, so that negates all potential information from the base.

Your only looking at a small portion of the picture. It's not a "if" the base is going to be used after the Reaper battle by TIM/Cerberus for their own goals of human domination. TIM has already stated TIME AND TIME again that he wants humanity to dominate the galaxy, and even the universe! Trusting a man who openly says something like that with a base that COULD contain information/tech that might help defeat the Reapers is just thinking short term.

smudboy wrote...
The reality is war.  It's messy.  People die.  The idealism of destroying the base "because it liquifies humans" and "I think TIM is evil and HE MUST PAY for tricking me grr" is an A=A, (and emotional) argument.  It's speculative, bordering on insulting.

You're twisting a lot of people's words here. No one who's actually put up a decent argument over why they destroyed the base simply because "I think TIM is evil and HE MUST PAY for tricking me grr", we're destroying it because EVERYTHING WE KNOW about TIM states that he will uses any method to achieve his goals, and that goal is human domination with Cerberus leading the way... and TIM is Cerberus. Ignoring all the FACTS that we know about TIM is foolish.

smudboy wrote...
If you need to order a soldier to die, so the rest of your squad can live, you do it.  You may not like whatever ideals of yours that are being compromised, but that's reality.  You do it.

Of course you do it. You do what is best for the squad. But very rarely do we run across a situation where we must sacrifice someone to keep the rest of the unit alive. Besides, a good soldier knows that a situation like this might eventually come up in a battle, and they are prepared to do what is necessary for the good of the squad. Besides, a good commander never orders a soldier to die, he orders him to live so he can buy that soldier a beer.

smudboy wrote...
In this case, there's absolutely no reason to blow up the base, unless you simply don't like the way TIM talks to you.  Which unfortunately makes you an idiot.

Hmmm... Funny, you've ignored a lot of the arguments for blowing up the base and twisted everyones words into "Grr, we don't like TIM" and "OMG, the base liquifies people, we must blow it up". That is pretty much the only thing you've argued in every post you have made. You can go ahead and call us idiots for doing what we did. But this really shows that you aren't listening to anything we have said.

[AsheraII]

Why DID the German government take down more or less the entire Berlin wall and all of the Iron Curtain and it's checkpoints, watchtowers etcetera? Why not leave it in place as either a memorial or for future fortification purposes?



Why DIDN'T the communist government remove all the rubble in Dresden after WW2 and leave it in place, since all that space in the heart of the city could've been used to build apartments or offices.



Just some similar decisions, and the call was made by those who had the power to chose between keeping things intact (yes, an odd choice of words regarding Dresden) or move them out of the way. We're given a similar choice regarding the Reaper station. We're actually given very similar choices on multiple occasions in ME2.



Thousands of cancer victims still benefit from atrocities commited by Joseph Mengele in WW2. These atrocities are not justified by the benefits we reap now, they never will be. But they did certainly boost our knowledge of genetic engineering. And I thank God that I wasn't the one who had to make the call, whether to keep Mengeles' research available for science progress, or to destroy it, so it couldn't ever be used for the better either. I might've had it destroyed, even risking the lives of people very close to me.

[smudboy]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

"Good luck with that. Hell, good luck with that outside the game..."
You don't have the right to be so arrogant towards me. Yes, my convictions has served me well, thank you very much. People have counted on me and consider me as a leader for it, and it has served them well.
This is your warning, back off from the insulting everyone. No one here is dumb, not even you. don't ruin this conversation by making personal insults to everyone who disagrees with you. There are valid points to keeping the base as well as destroying it. The only way we'll see the outcome of this decsion is in ME3. Until then, we can only spectulation so keep it civilzed. Or I will bring you up with the mediators.

Feel free to show me these valid points for destroying it.

Oh no, not the mediators.  Moderators maybe?  I was afraid I'd be talked down to...

[smudboy]

Halmiriliath wrote...
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, because you're argument is both disjointed and makes fundamental assumptions about my reasoning that simply aren't true. I don't believe the Illusive Man is evil - in fact, I rarely call anyone 'evil' - but he is instead the paradigm of a pragmatist. He does whatever he feels is necessary to get a job done, regardless of moral foibles. I don't take that approach, because I believe one's principles are more important than conveniently avoiding them when you feel they get in the way of what you're trying to do.

Regarding knowledge about the Reapers, I would be all for acquiring more information about them, but Reaper technology has a habit of warping people's minds before they can get what they want from them. I'm not sure how you'd acquire it otherwise, but there's always another way.

A good question.  One that would be potentially answered if you keep the base to study it.  If you blow it up?  Nada.

Does indoctrination occur within a Reaper?  Or within the scaffold for building one?

Two more things: ideals are not childish, and 'those religious fellows' are not ridiculous, and nor are their ideals. Science and 'reason' aren't everything - a belief in the supernatural or divine is not something to be scoffed at. If someone believes there is more to their existence than this life, then surely you can see that they would stick to their principles in this life - regardess of the consequences - rather than being punished for abrogating them in the next.

Hmm, I seem to be going down an existential path here...

Sure they are.  They're downright laughable.  "I kill you because my god said to."  Right.

Science and reason are everything.  Unless you give credit to belief and enthusiasm.  You know.  You could.  (psst: If you're stupid.)

So wait: if someone believes there is more to their existence than this life (a), then surely I can see that they would stick to their principles in this life (, regardless of the consequences, rather than being punished?

So because of (a), they should stick to principles of (, regardless, instead than being punished?  Why?  (a) is something outside of (, and then you imply regardless of what comes after it, instead of being punished?  Actually don't bother.  I'm already lost.

[smudboy]

Turkeysock wrote...

Yes and no. Yes that we can't really compare events in human history to galactic genocide. No in the event that you think those who fought for what they believe is stupid. At the time of any event, we have only our perspectives of said event. They lived in a time when it took weeks to travel from the southern tip of Italy to the northern shores of France. Information was based solely on what a person saw and recorded. They didn't have all the high tech equipment we have now, and even if they did, they most likely would have made the same decisions.

Sure.  If they knew the earth was round and weren't indoctrinated by the Church so they could slaughter a bunch of people who looked and thought different in other climate.

That's so stupid is homocidal.

Odd, because common sense dictates that when you abandon a base, you usually take or destroy all information in the base. It is VERY unlikely that Harbinger would've left a nice big ol' database full of info for us to go and pick at.

Funny, how Harbinger seems to remotely disconnect with the Collector Boss dude, and thus "leave the base."  Leaving everything there.

Speculaaaaatioooon Mr. Turkeeeey moooooore.

Actually most arguments on here have stated the whole human liquidification thing as one of the minor reasons for blowing up the base>.> On the other hand, everything we know about TIM and Cerberus is that they do unethical experiments to further THEIR goals. TIM is someone you can't trust. Some of his actions were necessary during the mission, IE leaking info about Kaiden/Ashley being on Horizon to attract the Collectors. But overall, he's a megalomaniac.

If you couldn't trust him, you shouldn't be going along with EVERY SINGLE DECISION he gave you.  The game didn't give you a chance.  You're railroaded to.

Also, Shepard isn't a dog of Cerberus, he's working with Cerberus because their goals are similar. TIM will work with anyone as long as their goals are similar. And he's not the "only" chance the galaxy has. Shepard is.

Sure he is.
TIM: "Shepard go to this planet where bad people are."
Shep: "ruff ruff!"
TIM: "Good boy.  Now go get these people"
Shep: "ruff ruff!"
TIM: "There's a champ.  Now go collect that IFF."
Shep: "grr"
TIM: "I did it because I love you. You're my number one pawn."
Shep: "ruff ruff!"

Your only looking at a small portion of the picture. It's not a "if" the base is going to be used after the Reaper battle by TIM/Cerberus for their own goals of human domination. TIM has already stated TIME AND TIME again that he wants humanity to dominate the galaxy, and even the universe! Trusting a man who openly says something like that with a base that COULD contain information/tech that might help defeat the Reapers is just thinking short term.

And that "short term" may be all the life you get, because there IS NO longer term if EVERYONE IS DEAD.

Every resource should go into fighting the IMPENDING DOOM of the universe.  Deal with the consequences after that is dealt with.

You want to put the entire galaxy at risk, because some GUY is RUTHLESS?  Wow.  That's one hell of a grudge there.

Shepard: "You know Timmy.  Can I call you Timmy?  I know you saved my life, hell, saved a whole bunch of lives.  Gave me a new ship, a new crew.  We're really doing good things here man."
TIM: "Thanks Shepard.  You and your actions are an asset to humanity."
Shepard: "But you know, this base thing?  I don't know.  I think you'll just do really bad things with it."
TIM: "My goal has not changed.  Cerberus is here to promoate and protect human dominance."
Shepard: "See that's what I'm saying, Chief-ey T.  I mean, sure, we MAY find some cool technology that MAY keep us from being completely obliterated for the next 50k.  And we MAY actually defeat the Collectors with it.  But you know?  You're just ruthless.  I don't want to sacrifice the soul of humanity.  Because I'm scared of you."

That's essentially what you're saying.  You're scared of TIM.

Again, deal with that problem when it becomes a problem.

You're twisting a lot of people's words here. No one who's actually put up a decent argument over why they destroyed the base simply because "I think TIM is evil and HE MUST PAY for tricking me grr", we're destroying it because EVERYTHING WE KNOW about TIM states that he will uses any method to achieve his goals, and that goal is human domination with Cerberus leading the way... and TIM is Cerberus. Ignoring all the FACTS that we know about TIM is foolish.

TIM's a super-genius rich mother-father-sister-brother of humanity.

I'm still waiting for an argument here why Mr. Ruthless is bad.

Of course you do it. You do what is best for the squad. But very rarely do we run across a situation where we must sacrifice someone to keep the rest of the unit alive. Besides, a good soldier knows that a situation like this might eventually come up in a battle, and they are prepared to do what is necessary for the good of the squad. Besides, a good commander never orders a soldier to die, he orders him to live so he can buy that soldier a beer.

Except that time on Virmire when Shepard got Alenko/Ash killed. Oh wait.  Under your reasoning, Shepard would be a bad commander.  No beer for Alenko/Ash.

Alenko/Ash: ...

Hmmm... Funny, you've ignored a lot of the arguments for blowing up the base and twisted everyones words into "Grr, we don't like TIM" and "OMG, the base liquifies people, we must blow it up". That is pretty much the only thing you've argued in every post you have made. You can go ahead and call us idiots for doing what we did. But this really shows that you aren't listening to anything we have said.

Feel free to actually make an argument that doesn't come across like that.

[Silent Perforator]

I've never seen anyone stick to their principles in a life or death situation where the death involved billions instead of only their own life. Morality has no place in a fight for the continued existence of several species.

[Turkeysock]

[quote]smudboy wrote...
Sure.  If they knew the earth was round and weren't indoctrinated by the Church so they could slaughter a bunch of people who looked and thought different in other climate.

That's so stupid is homocidal.[/quote]

The Church did not start out that way, but those in charge did abuse their powers, that is not questionable. But we are talking about living at that time and place. If we were born into that age, we would also blindly follow the Church because that was how society in Europe was at that time. We have the ability to look back and point out the mistakes of that time, they did not.

[quote]smudboy wrote...
Funny, how Harbinger seems to remotely disconnect with the Collector Boss dude, and thus "leave the base."  Leaving everything there.

Speculaaaaatioooon Mr. Turkeeeey moooooore.[/quote]

It's less speculation and more based off of how intelligent beings act. Besides, you are forgetting that Harbinger is a machine who was directly linked into the Collector database (hence why he had to have the Collector General hit those buttons to disconnect him). In the time it took for him to get to the consol to diconnect him, he most likely copied any relavent information that he needed, and deleted the rest. Speculation, yes, but based off common sense and knowledge.

[quote]smudboy wrote...
If you couldn't trust him, you shouldn't be going along with EVERY SINGLE DECISION he gave you.  The game didn't give you a chance.  You're railroaded to.[/quote]

Again, this is because their goals are similar. People put up with people they hate at their job because their goals are similar, getting a pay check. I know people who are raciest in the armed forces, but work hand in hand with those they despise because of color because their goals are similar. You want a historical reference? WWII, Hitler looked down upon the Italians and the Japanese as being inferior beings. But, he gladly cooperated with them because their goals were similar.

[quote]smudboy wrote...
Sure he is.
TIM: "Shepard go to this planet where bad people are."
Shep: "ruff ruff!"
TIM: "Good boy.  Now go get these people"
Shep: "ruff ruff!"
TIM: "There's a champ.  Now go collect that IFF."
Shep: "grr"
TIM: "I did it because I love you. You're my number one pawn."
Shep: "ruff ruff!"[/quote]

Again, working towards a common goal, Shepard put up with it. The only time you really become a dog of Cerberus is if you let yourself become one. Obviously you are one, but I am not.

[quote]smudboy wrote...
And that "short term" may be all the life you get, because there IS NO longer term if EVERYONE IS DEAD.[/quote]

There are worst things than death.

[quote]smudboy wrote...
Every resource should go into fighting the IMPENDING DOOM of the universe.  Deal with the consequences after that is dealt with.

You want to put the entire galaxy at risk, because some GUY is RUTHLESS?  Wow.  That's one hell of a grudge there.[/quote]

Wow, you ignore EVERYTHING we know about TIM because your willing to do what ever it takes to survive... That's ignorance.

[quote]smudboy wrote...
Shepard: "You know Timmy.  Can I call you Timmy?  I know you saved my life, hell, saved a whole bunch of lives.  Gave me a new ship, a new crew.  We're really doing good things here man."
TIM: "Thanks Shepard.  You and your actions are an asset to humanity."
Shepard: "But you know, this base thing?  I don't know.  I think you'll just do really bad things with it."
TIM: "My goal has not changed.  Cerberus is here to promoate and protect human dominance."
Shepard: "See that's what I'm saying, Chief-ey T.  I mean, sure, we MAY find some cool technology that MAY keep us from being completely obliterated for the next 50k.  And we MAY actually defeat the Collectors with it.  But you know?  You're just ruthless.  I don't want to sacrifice the soul of humanity.  Because I'm scared of you."

That's essentially what you're saying.  You're scared of TIM.[/quote]

I am not scared of TIM, I'm scared of what he'll do down the line.

[quote]smudboy wrote...
Again, deal with that problem when it becomes a problem.[/quote]

Hmmm... Where have I heard about this before... Oh yes, WWII! Had the European countries actually done something other than to appease Hitler, well the war might not have been as bad as it had gotten. If you think for a minute that TIM is just going to sit back and let the galactic community recover from the Reaper attack, than I really don't know what to say. Common sense dictates that either right before the Reaper fleet is destroyed or right after, he'll swoop in with a fleet he didn't tell anyone about and either wipe out the remaining Reaper fleet, or wipe out the remains of the galactic alliance fleet if they don't follow him.

Oh, and before you yell that I'm speculating, he practically owns the biggest human ship building company on earth, not to mention a ton of other human companies, he could easily have fleet of frigates and cruisers equipped with Reaper tech built without anyone noticing.

[quote]smudboy wrote...
TIM's a super-genius rich mother-father-sister-brother of humanity.

I'm still waiting for an argument here why Mr. Ruthless is bad.[/quote]

http://masseffect.wi...ki/Illusive_Man
http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Cerberus

Information taken from the game and books about Cerberus and TIM.

How about I also name a few? Unethical experiments on children.
Blowing up ships over colonies to make more humans born with biotics.
The Akuze incident.
Assassination of the leader of Terra-Firma so he could place a guy who was easier to control for his own interests.
Leaving a distress beacon to attract Alliance soldiers right next to a Thresher Maw nest.
Oh, and the latest ME book has him implanting Paul Grayson (ex-Cerberus operative) with Reaper tech to see how it works.

And thats the stuff we do know. God knows what else he's done that we don't know about.

[quote]smudboy wrote...
Except that time on Virmire when Shepard got Alenko/Ash killed. Oh wait.  Under your reasoning, Shepard would be a bad commander.  No beer for Alenko/Ash.[/quote]

Nope, now you are of course twisting my words to fit into your argument... again. We all know what happened on Virmire. The situation given, you couldn't have saved both, it was either Kaiden or Ashley. Either way, no one walks away from a nuke alive, or without radiation poisoning.

[quote]smudboy wrote...
Feel free to actually make an argument that doesn't come across like that.[/quote]

Well, ignore everything people say Smud, it doesn't change the facts or what has actually been said.

Modifié par Turkeysock, 05 mars 2010 - 11:22 .