[quote]Turkeysock wrote...
It's less speculation and more based off of how intelligent beings act. Besides, you are forgetting that Harbinger is a machine who was directly linked into the Collector database (hence why he had to have the Collector General hit those buttons to disconnect him). In the time it took for him to get to the consol to diconnect him, he most likely copied any relavent information that he needed, and deleted the rest. Speculation, yes, but based off common sense and knowledge.
[/quote]
I was under the impression Harbinger was controlling the general or whatever directly. As in ASSUMING CONTROL OF THIS PEON.
You're admitting to speculation, then basing it off common sense and knowledge?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Sorry, you're funny. Here's a sucker. You know what to do. WITH YOUR MIND.
[quote]
Again, this is because their goals are similar. People put up with people they hate at their job because their goals are similar, getting a pay check. I know people who are raciest in the armed forces, but work hand in hand with those they despise because of color because their goals are similar. You want a historical reference? WWII, Hitler looked down upon the Italians and the Japanese as being inferior beings. But, he gladly cooperated with them because their goals were similar.
[/quote]
I'd argue the writers are hacks, but whatever.
[quote]
Again, working towards a common goal, Shepard put up with it. The only time you really become a dog of Cerberus is if you let yourself become one. Obviously you are one, but I am not.
[/quote]
No, if the story railroads Shepard into BEHAVING as such, every Shepard is like that. Common goal or not, this is how the plot works:
TIM: "Do this."
Shepard: "Okay."
xTHEGAME
ERGO, Shepard is a dog of Cerberus. He doesn't have a mind of his own. He just does whatever BOSSMAN says.
Maybe this is why you're so hung up on blowing up the base. The one opportunity you get to dis TIM. I'm guessing that's all it is, but clearly, you think otherwise.
[quote]
There are worst things than death.
[/quote]
Yeah. Galactic death.
[quote]
Wow, you ignore EVERYTHING we know about TIM because your willing to do what ever it takes to survive... That's ignorance.
[/quote]
Prove to me otherwise these things I'm ignorant about.
[quote]
I am not scared of TIM, I'm scared of what he'll do down the line.
[/quote]
I am not scared of TIM, I'm scared of what he'll do down the line.
I'm scared of what he'll do down the line.
I'm scared of what he'll do
=I'm scared of TIM.
Our bad guy are the Reapers. We know their agenda. TIMs agenda is to promote and protect human dominance.
Again, you seem to think TIM is worse than the Reapers.
[quote]
Hmmm... Where have I heard about this before... Oh yes, WWII!...
[/quote]
Blah blah blah history and you're speculating.
[quote]
Oh, and before you yell that I'm speculating, TOOLATE! he practically owns the biggest human ship building company on earth, not to mention a ton of other human companies, he could easily have fleet of frigates and cruisers equipped with Reaper tech built without anyone noticing.
[/quote]
Yes. Look out, you Cerberus group of 150 people. One frigate for each agent. Take over that galaxy. LOOK OUT.
[quote]
http://masseffect.wi...ki/Illusive_Man
http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Cerberus
[/quote]
Put it in point form that's actually part of the game so I don't have to read your internets or books.
[quote]
How about I also name a few? OHGOODIEUnethical experiments on children.[/quote]
Which? When? Who? Jack? TIM wasn't involved in that.
[quote]
Blowing up ships over colonies to make more humans born with biotics.
[/quote]
Where in either game is this?
[quote]
The Akuze incident.
[/quote]
True. But did TIM do this?
[quote]
Assassination of the leader of Terra-Firma so he could place a guy who was easier to control for his own interests.
[/quote]
Where in the game?
[quote]
Leaving a distress beacon to attract Alliance soldiers right next to a Thresher Maw nest.
[/quote]
True. Did TIM do this?
[quote]
Oh, and the latest ME book has him implanting Paul Grayson (ex-Cerberus operative) with Reaper tech to see how it works.
[/quote]
Don't care about books. Care about game.
[quote]
And thats the stuff we do know. God knows what else he's done that we don't know about.
[/quote]
So basically we have to thank Cerberus for making our career (if we were on Akuze). We'd then have to ask him whether or not he was even part of anything related to Thresher Maws.
Here's Miranda explaining creepers, husks and rachni at 1:00
www.youtube.com/watch
[quote]
Nope, now you are of course twisting my words to fit into your argument... again. We all know what happened on Virmire. The situation given, you couldn't have saved both, it was either Kaiden or Ashley. Either way, no one walks away from a nuke alive, or without radiation poisoning.
[/quote]
If by "twisting your words" you mean putting them into actual context with a game example based on your made up fantasy of what a good commander does. You make it so easy.
[quote]
Well, ignore everything people say Smud, it doesn't change the facts or what has actually been said.
[/quote]
Still waiting for this big ol dangerous argument that says TIM and his team of 150 is a worse threat than the Reapers.
Why would anyone destroy the collector base?
Débuté par
codesmurf
, mars 02 2010 04:37
Retour en haut
#377
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 01:45
mcsupersport
-
- Members
- 2 912 messages
Smudboy,
After reading the last I don't know how many pages, it has come to me that you have absolutely zero idea about how people and the world works at large. By this you don't understand, and or have contempt for, a wide array of people and their motivations, indicating a very narrow elitist viewpoint. You are either a very young person, or very sheltered in your existence. I wish I knew your real name, so I could stay the HE!! away from any project you were in charge of or contributed too.
Now, to not destroy the base is giving you a decent chance to beat the reapers but most likely afterwards you will have to deal with TIMs powerplay and likely fleet of modified reapers. To not believe he will use the base to destroy/control the rest of the Universe is naive at best, and plain stupid at worst. TIM tells you time and again what he wants, and he tells you he wants the base to use it.
Also you make the assumption that you can keep the base from the Reapers and their allies in the not so distant future, assuming the base doesn't make the researchers allies, like the rest of Reaper tech/ships did. The raid on the base was just that a RAID, not an invasion. Cerebrus doesn't have the manpower to man and hold against a counter attack of the reapers and allies. As far as the Reapers having allies, you assume you have killed all of them which is foolish in the extreme, since the Reapers by all accounts have been planning the invasion for over 2000 years.
You are also assuming the base holds any information at all about Reapers, because Harbinger was controlling the Collectors, and HE had the info, but none may have been stored on site at all. All you get is equipment and hardware, whose sole purpose is constructing a reaper from harvested DNA, but no guarantee of any data at all. You assume there is data, dangerous especially with the known intentions of TIM to use the base hardware.
Now killing the base, takes away the ability to build Reapers, and prevents any retaking in the coming attack. EDI had plenty of time to datamine the computers to harvest any useful technology that might be contained in the base or the Reaper linked to it. So what do you lose by destroying the base?? You lose hardware to liquefy sentient races, and pump the resultant slurry into a superstructure. You also lose the remain of a young Reaper, but as we have seen, even dead reapers can cause great harm to organics. So you lose hardware and a very dangerous corpse, while preventing that same dangerous hardware and corpse from falling into the hands of two groups that don't have the best interest of the Galaxy in mind, both TIM and Reapers. So destroying the base is the BEST thing you can do for the ENTIRE Galaxy, rather than just for Cereberus.
After reading the last I don't know how many pages, it has come to me that you have absolutely zero idea about how people and the world works at large. By this you don't understand, and or have contempt for, a wide array of people and their motivations, indicating a very narrow elitist viewpoint. You are either a very young person, or very sheltered in your existence. I wish I knew your real name, so I could stay the HE!! away from any project you were in charge of or contributed too.
Now, to not destroy the base is giving you a decent chance to beat the reapers but most likely afterwards you will have to deal with TIMs powerplay and likely fleet of modified reapers. To not believe he will use the base to destroy/control the rest of the Universe is naive at best, and plain stupid at worst. TIM tells you time and again what he wants, and he tells you he wants the base to use it.
Also you make the assumption that you can keep the base from the Reapers and their allies in the not so distant future, assuming the base doesn't make the researchers allies, like the rest of Reaper tech/ships did. The raid on the base was just that a RAID, not an invasion. Cerebrus doesn't have the manpower to man and hold against a counter attack of the reapers and allies. As far as the Reapers having allies, you assume you have killed all of them which is foolish in the extreme, since the Reapers by all accounts have been planning the invasion for over 2000 years.
You are also assuming the base holds any information at all about Reapers, because Harbinger was controlling the Collectors, and HE had the info, but none may have been stored on site at all. All you get is equipment and hardware, whose sole purpose is constructing a reaper from harvested DNA, but no guarantee of any data at all. You assume there is data, dangerous especially with the known intentions of TIM to use the base hardware.
Now killing the base, takes away the ability to build Reapers, and prevents any retaking in the coming attack. EDI had plenty of time to datamine the computers to harvest any useful technology that might be contained in the base or the Reaper linked to it. So what do you lose by destroying the base?? You lose hardware to liquefy sentient races, and pump the resultant slurry into a superstructure. You also lose the remain of a young Reaper, but as we have seen, even dead reapers can cause great harm to organics. So you lose hardware and a very dangerous corpse, while preventing that same dangerous hardware and corpse from falling into the hands of two groups that don't have the best interest of the Galaxy in mind, both TIM and Reapers. So destroying the base is the BEST thing you can do for the ENTIRE Galaxy, rather than just for Cereberus.
#379
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 01:50
Turkeysock
-
- Members
- 720 messages
[quote]smudboy wrote...
I was under the impression Harbinger was controlling the general or whatever directly. As in ASSUMING CONTROL OF THIS PEON.
You're admitting to speculation, then basing it off common sense and knowledge? [/quote]
It is speculation but at the same time basing off of common sense and knowledge of what EVERYONE does when they abandon/leave a base/fort/office building/house. You don't leave your credit card info sitting on the counter of a house you sold or an apartment you left for the next guy to see and possibly use. An army withdrawing from a base due to any situation doesn't leave vital information sitting about for anyone who comes across the base to find and use.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
I'd argue the writers are hacks, but whatever.[/quote]
Fair enough, a lot of things could've been written better.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
No, if the story railroads Shepard into BEHAVING as such, every Shepard is like that. Common goal or not, this is how the plot works:
TIM: "Do this."
Shepard: "Okay."
xTHEGAME
ERGO, Shepard is a dog of Cerberus. He doesn't have a mind of his own. He just does whatever BOSSMAN says.[/quote]
Working towards a common goal>.> TIM has all the info, a lot more then Shepard knows. TIM gives Shepard a ship and a crew, and a list of the best of the best folks in their field to recruit. Besides, there is only 3 places that TIM specifically tells Shepard to go, Freedoms Progress, Horizon, and the Collector Ship. The main objective after Freedoms Progress is getting to the Collector Base. At Horizon we were trying to save a colony from an abduction, the Collector Ship was to gather information. Whether we wanted to work with TIM or not, we had to get the IFF from the Derelict Reaper to get through the Omega Relay safely.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
Maybe this is why you're so hung up on blowing up the base. The one opportunity you get to dis TIM. I'm guessing that's all it is, but clearly, you think otherwise.[/quote]
Several points throughout the game where you can oppose TIM. The first is when we are asked to investigate a missing Cerberus agent, we have the option of uploading Cerberus information to the Alliance, Cerberus, or keep it for yourself. Then there is waking Grunt up. And lets not forget that TIM would've rather had Legion sent to him for study than having Shepard reactivating him. Oh, yeah, then we have the base option.
And FYI, I oppose TIM because he doesn't care about anything but results.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
Prove to me otherwise these things I'm ignorant about.[/quote]
You have, you just choose to ignore it>.>
[quote]smudboy wrote...
I am not scared of TIM, I'm scared of what he'll do down the line.
I'm scared of what he'll do down the line.
I'm scared of what he'll do
=I'm scared of TIM.[/quote]
Wow, you really like simplifying things don't ya>.> There is a difference between fearing someone and fearing their actions.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
Our bad guy are the Reapers. We know their agenda. TIMs agenda is to promote and protect human dominance.[/quote]
Human dominance with him basically leading humanity. That is under the Reapers, but I wouldn't put it past TIM to go and wipe out another race who refuses to follow, speculative, yes, but he's all about a means to an end.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
Again, you seem to think TIM is worse than the Reapers.[/quote]
Never said TIM was worst then the Reapers. He's just under them.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
Blah blah blah history and you're speculating.[/quote]
Looking at history is speculating, interesting.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock worte...
Oh, and before you yell that I'm speculating, TOOLATE! he practically owns the biggest human ship building company on earth, not to mention a ton of other human companies, he could easily have fleet of frigates and cruisers equipped with Reaper tech built without anyone noticing.
[/quote]
Yes. Look out, you Cerberus group of 150 people. One frigate for each agent. Take over that galaxy. LOOK OUT.[/quote]
Speculating here, but hey, I'm sure he's got more copies of an EDI AI in the lab that they created her. They would only need maybe like a dozen or so people on the ships to do some of the jobs the AI would be unable to do.
Plus, seriously you believe TIM would put accurate information on that ship? The guy outright lies to Shepard on a number of occasions. He had to have known that EDI would've become unshackled at some point.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
http://masseffect.wi...ki/Illusive_Man
http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Cerberus
[/quote]
Put it in point form that's actually part of the game so I don't have to read your internets or books.[/quote]
*Sigh* So your telling me that everyone in the books don't count? Because everything that takes place in the books is apart of the ME universe, which the game is apart of. Meaning that they are legit sources of information. Also I posted the links to give you some proof because you would've been saying "show me some proof".
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
How about I also name a few? OHGOODIEUnethical experiments on children.[/quote]
Which? When? Who? Jack? TIM wasn't involved in that.[/quote]
Odd, because I was under the assumption that the Teltin facility was a Cerberus facility. Oh wait, it is! If you seriously think TIM didn't have even know what was going on there then you really are insulting TIM's intelligence ya know>.> He's said it himself, he doesn't care how it gets done as long as it got done. And they were doing exactly that. He might not have told them to do it that way, and he probably didn't know every little thing going on there, but there's no way you can say that he didn't know what was going on at the Teltin facility. Heck, the whole point was to bring out a better biotic, only a lot more extreme then Conatix BAaT camp.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
Blowing up ships over colonies to make more humans born with biotics.
[/quote]
Where in either game is this?[/quote]
In Mass Effect: Ascension book. He gave orders to Paul Grayson to crash an Eldfell-Ashland element zero freighter over the human colony of Yandoa.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
The Akuze incident.
[/quote]
True. But did TIM do this?[/quote]
He had a hand in it, he has a hand in every project Cerberus does>.>
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
Assassination of the leader of Terra-Firma so he could place a guy who was easier to control for his own interests.
[/quote]
Where in the game?[/quote]
The book Mass Effect: Ascension.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
Leaving a distress beacon to attract Alliance soldiers right next to a Thresher Maw nest.
[/quote]
True. Did TIM do this?[/quote]
Does TIM not have his hand in every Cerberus Project?
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
Oh, and the latest ME book has him implanting Paul Grayson (ex-Cerberus operative) with Reaper tech to see how it works.
[/quote]
Don't care about books. Care about game.[/quote]
Events in the book take place in the same universe the game is set in. Meaning that everything that happens in their books count, same as what happens in their comics too.\\\\
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
And thats the stuff we do know. God knows what else he's done that we don't know about.
[/quote]
So basically we have to thank Cerberus for making our career (if we were on Akuze). We'd then have to ask him whether or not he was even part of anything related to Thresher Maws.
Here's Miranda explaining creepers, husks and rachni at 1:00
www.youtube.com/watch[/quote]
He funded the program! TIM doesn't seem to be the guy who'd give some guys a bunch of money without knowing what they were going to do. He was part of it, the scientists were studying Thresher Maws, for what, I cannot say.
And hey, the video doesn't prove anything, it just means that the project didn't yield the results he was hoping for, which of course was shock troopers.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
Nope, now you are of course twisting my words to fit into your argument... again. We all know what happened on Virmire. The situation given, you couldn't have saved both, it was either Kaiden or Ashley. Either way, no one walks away from a nuke alive, or without radiation poisoning.
[/quote]
If by "twisting your words" you mean putting them into actual context with a game example based on your made up fantasy of what a good commander does. You make it so easy.[/quote]
In the case of Virmire, it was an extreme situation. I was referring to real life though, not in the video game. I know many folks in the U.S. Armed forces, in fact my father served in the army since the mid-1970's, and my grandfather served as a marine since 1945. My grandfather fought in the Pacific Theater in 1945, and everytime his unit embarked on a mission, his CO always told them to live, and when the mission was over, he'd buy them all a beer. When my grandfather became a CO of his own company in Vietnam, he said the same thing to his unit. My father served in the Gulf War, and his CO said the same thing (though probably not the exact same words) to them before they were sent into Kuwait. A good buddy of mine, who died in Iraq a few years back, met his CO when I saying goodbye to my buddy when they were getting ready to depart. The CO got up infront of the families, friends and troops and told his unit to live so he can buy them a beer when they got back. So how is it fantasy when I know people who've had their CO/were CO's who've said that?
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
Well, ignore everything people say Smud, it doesn't change the facts or what has actually been said.
[/quote]
Still waiting for this big ol dangerous argument that says TIM and his team of 150 is a worse threat than the Reapers.
[/quote]
There ya go again twisting my words, never said TIM was worse than the Reapers. But as long as you continue to bury your head and ignore everything someone says that you disagree with, you'll never see anything. I've provided ample evidence proving TIM isn't to be trusted with Reaper tech based off of actions we know he did or is responsible for.
I was under the impression Harbinger was controlling the general or whatever directly. As in ASSUMING CONTROL OF THIS PEON.
You're admitting to speculation, then basing it off common sense and knowledge? [/quote]
It is speculation but at the same time basing off of common sense and knowledge of what EVERYONE does when they abandon/leave a base/fort/office building/house. You don't leave your credit card info sitting on the counter of a house you sold or an apartment you left for the next guy to see and possibly use. An army withdrawing from a base due to any situation doesn't leave vital information sitting about for anyone who comes across the base to find and use.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
I'd argue the writers are hacks, but whatever.[/quote]
Fair enough, a lot of things could've been written better.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
No, if the story railroads Shepard into BEHAVING as such, every Shepard is like that. Common goal or not, this is how the plot works:
TIM: "Do this."
Shepard: "Okay."
xTHEGAME
ERGO, Shepard is a dog of Cerberus. He doesn't have a mind of his own. He just does whatever BOSSMAN says.[/quote]
Working towards a common goal>.> TIM has all the info, a lot more then Shepard knows. TIM gives Shepard a ship and a crew, and a list of the best of the best folks in their field to recruit. Besides, there is only 3 places that TIM specifically tells Shepard to go, Freedoms Progress, Horizon, and the Collector Ship. The main objective after Freedoms Progress is getting to the Collector Base. At Horizon we were trying to save a colony from an abduction, the Collector Ship was to gather information. Whether we wanted to work with TIM or not, we had to get the IFF from the Derelict Reaper to get through the Omega Relay safely.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
Maybe this is why you're so hung up on blowing up the base. The one opportunity you get to dis TIM. I'm guessing that's all it is, but clearly, you think otherwise.[/quote]
Several points throughout the game where you can oppose TIM. The first is when we are asked to investigate a missing Cerberus agent, we have the option of uploading Cerberus information to the Alliance, Cerberus, or keep it for yourself. Then there is waking Grunt up. And lets not forget that TIM would've rather had Legion sent to him for study than having Shepard reactivating him. Oh, yeah, then we have the base option.
And FYI, I oppose TIM because he doesn't care about anything but results.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
Prove to me otherwise these things I'm ignorant about.[/quote]
You have, you just choose to ignore it>.>
[quote]smudboy wrote...
I am not scared of TIM, I'm scared of what he'll do down the line.
I'm scared of what he'll do down the line.
I'm scared of what he'll do
=I'm scared of TIM.[/quote]
Wow, you really like simplifying things don't ya>.> There is a difference between fearing someone and fearing their actions.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
Our bad guy are the Reapers. We know their agenda. TIMs agenda is to promote and protect human dominance.[/quote]
Human dominance with him basically leading humanity. That is under the Reapers, but I wouldn't put it past TIM to go and wipe out another race who refuses to follow, speculative, yes, but he's all about a means to an end.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
Again, you seem to think TIM is worse than the Reapers.[/quote]
Never said TIM was worst then the Reapers. He's just under them.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
Blah blah blah history and you're speculating.[/quote]
Looking at history is speculating, interesting.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock worte...
Oh, and before you yell that I'm speculating, TOOLATE! he practically owns the biggest human ship building company on earth, not to mention a ton of other human companies, he could easily have fleet of frigates and cruisers equipped with Reaper tech built without anyone noticing.
[/quote]
Yes. Look out, you Cerberus group of 150 people. One frigate for each agent. Take over that galaxy. LOOK OUT.[/quote]
Speculating here, but hey, I'm sure he's got more copies of an EDI AI in the lab that they created her. They would only need maybe like a dozen or so people on the ships to do some of the jobs the AI would be unable to do.
Plus, seriously you believe TIM would put accurate information on that ship? The guy outright lies to Shepard on a number of occasions. He had to have known that EDI would've become unshackled at some point.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
http://masseffect.wi...ki/Illusive_Man
http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Cerberus
[/quote]
Put it in point form that's actually part of the game so I don't have to read your internets or books.[/quote]
*Sigh* So your telling me that everyone in the books don't count? Because everything that takes place in the books is apart of the ME universe, which the game is apart of. Meaning that they are legit sources of information. Also I posted the links to give you some proof because you would've been saying "show me some proof".
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
How about I also name a few? OHGOODIEUnethical experiments on children.[/quote]
Which? When? Who? Jack? TIM wasn't involved in that.[/quote]
Odd, because I was under the assumption that the Teltin facility was a Cerberus facility. Oh wait, it is! If you seriously think TIM didn't have even know what was going on there then you really are insulting TIM's intelligence ya know>.> He's said it himself, he doesn't care how it gets done as long as it got done. And they were doing exactly that. He might not have told them to do it that way, and he probably didn't know every little thing going on there, but there's no way you can say that he didn't know what was going on at the Teltin facility. Heck, the whole point was to bring out a better biotic, only a lot more extreme then Conatix BAaT camp.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
Blowing up ships over colonies to make more humans born with biotics.
[/quote]
Where in either game is this?[/quote]
In Mass Effect: Ascension book. He gave orders to Paul Grayson to crash an Eldfell-Ashland element zero freighter over the human colony of Yandoa.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
The Akuze incident.
[/quote]
True. But did TIM do this?[/quote]
He had a hand in it, he has a hand in every project Cerberus does>.>
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
Assassination of the leader of Terra-Firma so he could place a guy who was easier to control for his own interests.
[/quote]
Where in the game?[/quote]
The book Mass Effect: Ascension.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
Leaving a distress beacon to attract Alliance soldiers right next to a Thresher Maw nest.
[/quote]
True. Did TIM do this?[/quote]
Does TIM not have his hand in every Cerberus Project?
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
Oh, and the latest ME book has him implanting Paul Grayson (ex-Cerberus operative) with Reaper tech to see how it works.
[/quote]
Don't care about books. Care about game.[/quote]
Events in the book take place in the same universe the game is set in. Meaning that everything that happens in their books count, same as what happens in their comics too.\\\\
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
And thats the stuff we do know. God knows what else he's done that we don't know about.
[/quote]
So basically we have to thank Cerberus for making our career (if we were on Akuze). We'd then have to ask him whether or not he was even part of anything related to Thresher Maws.
Here's Miranda explaining creepers, husks and rachni at 1:00
www.youtube.com/watch[/quote]
He funded the program! TIM doesn't seem to be the guy who'd give some guys a bunch of money without knowing what they were going to do. He was part of it, the scientists were studying Thresher Maws, for what, I cannot say.
And hey, the video doesn't prove anything, it just means that the project didn't yield the results he was hoping for, which of course was shock troopers.
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
Nope, now you are of course twisting my words to fit into your argument... again. We all know what happened on Virmire. The situation given, you couldn't have saved both, it was either Kaiden or Ashley. Either way, no one walks away from a nuke alive, or without radiation poisoning.
[/quote]
If by "twisting your words" you mean putting them into actual context with a game example based on your made up fantasy of what a good commander does. You make it so easy.[/quote]
In the case of Virmire, it was an extreme situation. I was referring to real life though, not in the video game. I know many folks in the U.S. Armed forces, in fact my father served in the army since the mid-1970's, and my grandfather served as a marine since 1945. My grandfather fought in the Pacific Theater in 1945, and everytime his unit embarked on a mission, his CO always told them to live, and when the mission was over, he'd buy them all a beer. When my grandfather became a CO of his own company in Vietnam, he said the same thing to his unit. My father served in the Gulf War, and his CO said the same thing (though probably not the exact same words) to them before they were sent into Kuwait. A good buddy of mine, who died in Iraq a few years back, met his CO when I saying goodbye to my buddy when they were getting ready to depart. The CO got up infront of the families, friends and troops and told his unit to live so he can buy them a beer when they got back. So how is it fantasy when I know people who've had their CO/were CO's who've said that?
[quote]smudboy wrote...
[quote]turkeysock wrote...
Well, ignore everything people say Smud, it doesn't change the facts or what has actually been said.
[/quote]
Still waiting for this big ol dangerous argument that says TIM and his team of 150 is a worse threat than the Reapers.
[/quote]
There ya go again twisting my words, never said TIM was worse than the Reapers. But as long as you continue to bury your head and ignore everything someone says that you disagree with, you'll never see anything. I've provided ample evidence proving TIM isn't to be trusted with Reaper tech based off of actions we know he did or is responsible for.
Modifié par Turkeysock, 06 mars 2010 - 01:56 .
#380
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 02:33
smudboy
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Mr. Mc Genius Logical Shoes,mcsupersport wrote...
Smudboy,
Yes. I'm clearly not up to your level of comprehension because I can deduce the character of a person by what he types on a game companu's forum about a game they made and the retarded forced moral dilemma idiots can't grasp.After reading the last I don't know how many pages, it has come to me that you have absolutely zero idea about how people and the world works at large. By this you don't understand, and or have contempt for, a wide array of people and their motivations, indicating a very narrow elitist viewpoint. You are either a very young person, or very sheltered in your existence. I wish I knew your real name, so I could stay the HE!! away from any project you were in charge of or contributed too.
+1 for keeping base.Now, to not destroy the base is giving you a decent chance to beat the reapers but most likely afterwards you will have to deal with TIMs powerplay and likely fleet of modified reapers. To not believe he will use the base to destroy/control the rest of the Universe is naive at best, and plain stupid at worst. TIM tells you time and again what he wants, and he tells you he wants the base to use it.
Yes, because the base gives you teh powah to control the universe. Not understanding this is naive at best.
+1 for retard world imagination.
TIM: "Did you know Shepard? Human dominance means I'm going to control the universe. With my merry band of 150."
So...Cerberus doesn't have the manpower to man and hold against a counter attack on the Reapers and their allies, but they have the power to control the universe...later?Also you make the assumption that you can keep the base from the Reapers and their allies in the not so distant future, assuming the base doesn't make the researchers allies, like the rest of Reaper tech/ships did. The raid on the base was just that a RAID, not an invasion. Cerebrus doesn't have the manpower to man and hold against a counter attack of the reapers and allies. As far as the Reapers having allies, you assume you have killed all of them which is foolish in the extreme, since the Reapers by all accounts have been planning the invasion for over 2000 years.
I'm going to go to YOUR happy place where all this logic makes sense.
-1 to Cerberus having power due to lack of manpower.
So if there's nothing there, then it doesn't matter whether you blow up the base or not.You are also assuming the base holds any information at all about Reapers, because Harbinger was controlling the Collectors, and HE had the info, but none may have been stored on site at all. All you get is equipment and hardware, whose sole purpose is constructing a reaper from harvested DNA, but no guarantee of any data at all. You assume there is data, dangerous especially with the known intentions of TIM to use the base hardware.
0 to blowing up the base.
0 to keeping the base.
Okay. Assuming TIM didn't know EDI had all the data there was to get, why would he then want to keep the base? Your argument is IF EDI got every soft-copy-data, we should get rid of the hardware? Because we all know data is more important than the physical, real thing it has data of?Now killing the base, takes away the ability to build Reapers, and prevents any retaking in the coming attack. EDI had plenty of time to datamine the computers to harvest any useful technology that might be contained in the base or the Reaper linked to it. So what do you lose by destroying the base?? You lose hardware to liquefy sentient races, and pump the resultant slurry into a superstructure. You also lose the remain of a young Reaper, but as we have seen, even dead reapers can cause great harm to organics. So you lose hardware and a very dangerous corpse, while preventing that same dangerous hardware and corpse from falling into the hands of two groups that don't have the best interest of the Galaxy in mind, both TIM and Reapers. So destroying the base is the BEST thing you can do for the ENTIRE Galaxy, rather than just for Cereberus.
TIM does indeed have the best interest of the galaxy in mind: he's fighting the Reapers.
#381
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 02:35
FlashedMyDrive
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Simple.
I will never give a high tech space station that has the potential to have schematics to devistating technology to a man who gives me a evil grin whilst wringing his hands.
Never.
I will never give a high tech space station that has the potential to have schematics to devistating technology to a man who gives me a evil grin whilst wringing his hands.
Never.
Modifié par FlashedMyDrive, 06 mars 2010 - 02:36 .
#382
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 02:45
smudboy
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[quote]Turkeysock wrote...
It is speculation but at the same time...
[/quote]
Not listening to your speculation. Next.
[quote]
Working towards a common goal>.> TIM has all the info, a lot more then Shepard knows. TIM gives Shepard a ship and a crew, and a list of the best of the best folks in their field to recruit. Besides, there is only 3 places that TIM specifically tells Shepard to go, Freedoms Progress, Horizon, and the Collector Ship. The main objective after Freedoms Progress is getting to the Collector Base. At Horizon we were trying to save a colony from an abduction, the Collector Ship was to gather information. Whether we wanted to work with TIM or not, we had to get the IFF from the Derelict Reaper to get through the Omega Relay safely.
[/quote]
And the point being...
[quote]
Several points throughout the game where you can oppose TIM. The first is when we are asked to investigate a missing Cerberus agent, we have the option of uploading Cerberus information to the Alliance, Cerberus, or keep it for yourself. Then there is waking Grunt up. And lets not forget that TIM would've rather had Legion sent to him for study than having Shepard reactivating him. Oh, yeah, then we have the base option.
And FYI, I oppose TIM because he doesn't care about anything but results.
[/quote]
Whatever floats your boat.
[quote]
You have, you just choose to ignore it>.>
[/quote]
Ignore what? Your speculation? Damn straight.
[quote]
Wow, you really like simplifying things don't ya>.> There is a difference between fearing someone and fearing their actions.
[/quote]
You fear something about them. Their hair. Their actions. Their words. Source comes from them. Dilly dally around your phrazing and ideas. You're scared of TIM.
[quote]
Human dominance with him basically leading humanity. That is under the Reapers, but I wouldn't put it past TIM to go and wipe out another race who refuses to follow, speculative, yes, but he's all about a means to an end.
[/quote]
Yes, I'm sure his team of 150 will play the genocide game on another race because...
[quote]
Never said TIM was worst then the Reapers. He's just under them.
[/quote]
So you agree Reapers are the greatest threat in the galaxy? Yet you don't want to up your chances of defeating them because...
[quote]
Looking at history is speculating, interesting.
[/quote]
In a discussion about a fictional game world, and a few other of your ideas, yeah, quite a bit of specs going on around here.
[quote]
Speculating here, but hey, ...
[/quote]
Zzz.
[quote]
*Sigh* So your telling me that everyone in the books don't count? Because everything that takes place in the books is apart of the ME universe, which the game is apart of. Meaning that they are legit sources of information. Also I posted the links to give you some proof because you would've been saying "show me some proof".
[/quote]
Yes. The game is a self-contained story. If it doesn't happen in game, it doesn't happen, and shouldn't impact the average player/viewer.
[quote]
Odd, because I was under the assumption that the Teltin facility was a Cerberus facility. Oh wait, it is! If you seriously think TIM didn't have even know what was going on there then you really are insulting TIM's intelligence ya know>.> He's said it himself, he doesn't care how it gets done as long as it got done. And they were doing exactly that. He might not have told them to do it that way, and he probably didn't know every little thing going on there, but there's no way you can say that he didn't know what was going on at the Teltin facility. Heck, the whole point was to bring out a better biotic, only a lot more extreme then Conatix BAaT camp.
[/quote]
"However, the Teltin facility went behind the Illusive Man's back in their work."
[quote]
In Mass Effect: Ascension book. He gave orders to Paul Grayson to crash an Eldfell-Ashland element zero freighter over the human colony of Yandoa.
[/quote]
Book = irrelevant.
[quote]
He had a hand in it, he has a hand in every project Cerberus does>.>
[/quote]
I'm sure he does. But it seems other Cerberus operatives can "go behind the Illusive Man's back."
[quote]
The book Mass Effect: Ascension.
[/quote]
Irrelevant.
[quote]
Does TIM not have his hand in every Cerberus Project?
[/quote]
How? To what end? Do you know? Did he have a hand in what parts brought Shepard back, and how? No. He just gave carte blanch to Miranda and said "get err done."
[quote]
Events in the book take place in the same universe the game is set in. Meaning that everything that happens in their books count, same as what happens in their comics too.\\\\\\\\
[/quote]
Too bad. Not part of the game, doesn't impact it.
[quote]
He funded the program! TIM doesn't seem to be the guy who'd give some guys a bunch of money without knowing what they were going to do. He was part of it, the scientists were studying Thresher Maws, for what, I cannot say.
[/quote]
So what if he funded it? Did he order those involved to do something specific?
[quote]
And hey, the video doesn't prove anything, it just means that the project didn't yield the results he was hoping for, which of course was shock troopers.
[/quote]
Seems pretty straight forward to me...
[quote]
In the case of Virmire, it was an extreme situation....
[/quote]
TL;DR. Real life bleep blop bloop.
[quote]
There ya go again twisting my words, never said TIM was worse than the Reapers. But as long as you continue to bury your head and ignore everything someone says that you disagree with, you'll never see anything. I've provided ample evidence proving TIM isn't to be trusted with Reaper tech based off of actions we know he did or is responsible for.
[/quote]
So we agree that the Reapers are the real threat?
Then anything you do that doesn't stop them makes you an idiot. And arguing the point that "TIM CAN'T BE T RUSTED, HE'S BAAAD" even though you admit he's the lesser of two evils, makes you doubly dumb.
Double down dumb. Or something.
It is speculation but at the same time...
[/quote]
Not listening to your speculation. Next.
[quote]
Working towards a common goal>.> TIM has all the info, a lot more then Shepard knows. TIM gives Shepard a ship and a crew, and a list of the best of the best folks in their field to recruit. Besides, there is only 3 places that TIM specifically tells Shepard to go, Freedoms Progress, Horizon, and the Collector Ship. The main objective after Freedoms Progress is getting to the Collector Base. At Horizon we were trying to save a colony from an abduction, the Collector Ship was to gather information. Whether we wanted to work with TIM or not, we had to get the IFF from the Derelict Reaper to get through the Omega Relay safely.
[/quote]
And the point being...
[quote]
Several points throughout the game where you can oppose TIM. The first is when we are asked to investigate a missing Cerberus agent, we have the option of uploading Cerberus information to the Alliance, Cerberus, or keep it for yourself. Then there is waking Grunt up. And lets not forget that TIM would've rather had Legion sent to him for study than having Shepard reactivating him. Oh, yeah, then we have the base option.
And FYI, I oppose TIM because he doesn't care about anything but results.
[/quote]
Whatever floats your boat.
[quote]
You have, you just choose to ignore it>.>
[/quote]
Ignore what? Your speculation? Damn straight.
[quote]
Wow, you really like simplifying things don't ya>.> There is a difference between fearing someone and fearing their actions.
[/quote]
You fear something about them. Their hair. Their actions. Their words. Source comes from them. Dilly dally around your phrazing and ideas. You're scared of TIM.
[quote]
Human dominance with him basically leading humanity. That is under the Reapers, but I wouldn't put it past TIM to go and wipe out another race who refuses to follow, speculative, yes, but he's all about a means to an end.
[/quote]
Yes, I'm sure his team of 150 will play the genocide game on another race because...
[quote]
Never said TIM was worst then the Reapers. He's just under them.
[/quote]
So you agree Reapers are the greatest threat in the galaxy? Yet you don't want to up your chances of defeating them because...
[quote]
Looking at history is speculating, interesting.
[/quote]
In a discussion about a fictional game world, and a few other of your ideas, yeah, quite a bit of specs going on around here.
[quote]
Speculating here, but hey, ...
[/quote]
Zzz.
[quote]
*Sigh* So your telling me that everyone in the books don't count? Because everything that takes place in the books is apart of the ME universe, which the game is apart of. Meaning that they are legit sources of information. Also I posted the links to give you some proof because you would've been saying "show me some proof".
[/quote]
Yes. The game is a self-contained story. If it doesn't happen in game, it doesn't happen, and shouldn't impact the average player/viewer.
[quote]
Odd, because I was under the assumption that the Teltin facility was a Cerberus facility. Oh wait, it is! If you seriously think TIM didn't have even know what was going on there then you really are insulting TIM's intelligence ya know>.> He's said it himself, he doesn't care how it gets done as long as it got done. And they were doing exactly that. He might not have told them to do it that way, and he probably didn't know every little thing going on there, but there's no way you can say that he didn't know what was going on at the Teltin facility. Heck, the whole point was to bring out a better biotic, only a lot more extreme then Conatix BAaT camp.
[/quote]
"However, the Teltin facility went behind the Illusive Man's back in their work."
[quote]
In Mass Effect: Ascension book. He gave orders to Paul Grayson to crash an Eldfell-Ashland element zero freighter over the human colony of Yandoa.
[/quote]
Book = irrelevant.
[quote]
He had a hand in it, he has a hand in every project Cerberus does>.>
[/quote]
I'm sure he does. But it seems other Cerberus operatives can "go behind the Illusive Man's back."
[quote]
The book Mass Effect: Ascension.
[/quote]
Irrelevant.
[quote]
Does TIM not have his hand in every Cerberus Project?
[/quote]
How? To what end? Do you know? Did he have a hand in what parts brought Shepard back, and how? No. He just gave carte blanch to Miranda and said "get err done."
[quote]
Events in the book take place in the same universe the game is set in. Meaning that everything that happens in their books count, same as what happens in their comics too.\\\\\\\\
[/quote]
Too bad. Not part of the game, doesn't impact it.
[quote]
He funded the program! TIM doesn't seem to be the guy who'd give some guys a bunch of money without knowing what they were going to do. He was part of it, the scientists were studying Thresher Maws, for what, I cannot say.
[/quote]
So what if he funded it? Did he order those involved to do something specific?
[quote]
And hey, the video doesn't prove anything, it just means that the project didn't yield the results he was hoping for, which of course was shock troopers.
[/quote]
Seems pretty straight forward to me...
[quote]
In the case of Virmire, it was an extreme situation....
[/quote]
TL;DR. Real life bleep blop bloop.
[quote]
There ya go again twisting my words, never said TIM was worse than the Reapers. But as long as you continue to bury your head and ignore everything someone says that you disagree with, you'll never see anything. I've provided ample evidence proving TIM isn't to be trusted with Reaper tech based off of actions we know he did or is responsible for.
[/quote]
So we agree that the Reapers are the real threat?
Then anything you do that doesn't stop them makes you an idiot. And arguing the point that "TIM CAN'T BE T RUSTED, HE'S BAAAD" even though you admit he's the lesser of two evils, makes you doubly dumb.
Double down dumb. Or something.
#383
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 03:12
mcsupersport
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smudboy wrote...
Mr. Mc Genius Logical Shoes,mcsupersport wrote...
Smudboy,
Yes. I'm clearly not up to your level of comprehension because I can deduce the character of a person by what he types on a game companu's forum about a game they made and the retarded forced moral dilemma idiots can't grasp.
Proved my first paragraph really well, thank you.
Simple logic, maybe you can understand, like you claim you can understand it.......
Your facts.....
1)To beat the Reapers you need TIM to gain power of the base.
2)Without the power of the base, the galaxy is/should be doomed to extinction by the Reapers.
3)The power of the base gives TIM/Cerebrus the ability to beat the Reapers.
Galaxy fights reapers alone lose.
TIM with base fights reapers win.
By logic, then the reapers are more powerful than the Galaxy, and TIM/Cereberus is more powerful than the Reapers, then TIM/Cereberus is more powerful than the Galaxy. So since his stated goal is human domination, TIM will rule the Galaxy.....Congratulations, you defeat the Reapers and have to exist in a galaxy ruled by TIM to the destruction of most Alien life.
My facts......
1)To beat the Reapers I need the united forces of all the Galaxy...Turian, Asari, Human, Geth, Rachni, Krogan, Drell, Volus, Hanar, Batarian, and any others that I can get.
2)Information from the base may help(mined by EDI during assault), but it is not crucial to have my own reapers, so I don't need the base.
3)TIM can go suck eggs if he is not helping to defeat the Reapers.
Individual Species fight reapers lose.
Combined Galaxy fights reapers win.
By logic, then the combined forces are better than the Reapers. Our goal is the preservation of all civilization. The Reapers have tried very hard to not face the combined Galaxy, so this indicates a weakness. Since TIM gets to sucks eggs most of the game, the Galaxy continues much the way it has since humans arrived.....Congratulations, we defeated the Reapers and have a multi-species government working for the betterment of all.
If you say TIM is not more powerful than the entire galaxy, what makes him more able to defeat the Reapers than the entire Galaxy??
#384
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 03:13
Halmiriliath
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smudboy wrote...
A good question. One that would be potentially answered if you keep the base to study it. If you blow it up? Nada.
Does indoctrination occur within a Reaper? Or within the scaffold for building one?
Sure they are. They're downright laughable. "I kill you because my god said to." Right.
Science and reason are everything. Unless you give credit to belief and enthusiasm. You know. You could. (psst: If you're stupid.)
So wait: if someone believes there is more to their existence than this life (a), then surely I can see that they would stick to their principles in this life (, regardless of the consequences, rather than being punished?
So because of (a), they should stick to principles of (
Gah! This one detects a lack of appreciation for the richness of our own past, and a failure to try to get into the mindframe of our predecessors before making sweeping generalisations about the way they led their lives. It wonders if the forumite considers itself fortunate that this isn't a history or off-topic forum, where one could have a proper discussion about such matters...
Re. Silent Perforator, you make a good point. It depends how much lives it would cost to adapt to Reaper technology, but I would ultimately reject it not just from a moral standpoint, but - as other posts have already stated - because their technology indoctrinates its users and because we would continue down a path the Reapers have predetermined for us. I would also point out - again like other posters have said - that once Harbinger was aware everything was falling around his ears, not only would he have withdrawn himself, but all the vital data in the base, thus making it a useless shell with only the potential to indoctrinate anyone unfortunate enough to go in there.
Modifié par Halmiriliath, 06 mars 2010 - 03:15 .
#385
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 03:34
Turkeysock
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Everyone, ignore Smud, he's proven that he isn't here to actually have a civil debate, he's just here to boost what little self confidence he has.
As to the debate. Frankly, I think everything that needs to be said, has been said for both sides. I think it's time we call it quits. I had a lot of fun debating with folks, and I've come to understand those who've actually took the topic somewhat serious. I hope I get to debate with you guys in the near future about some other stuff.
As to the debate. Frankly, I think everything that needs to be said, has been said for both sides. I think it's time we call it quits. I had a lot of fun debating with folks, and I've come to understand those who've actually took the topic somewhat serious. I hope I get to debate with you guys in the near future about some other stuff.
#386
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 03:48
smudboy
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You're welcome, ego Mc.F*cknut.mcsupersport wrote...
Proved my first paragraph really well, thank you.
Simple logic, maybe you can understand, like you claim you can understand it.......
Your facts.....
1)To beat the Reapers you need TIM to gain power of the base.
2)Without the power of the base, the galaxy is/should be doomed to extinction by the Reapers.
3)The power of the base gives TIM/Cerebrus the ability to beat the Reapers.
I never stated that to beat the Reapers you must get the base. It merely increases the chances of victory. 1) Proof (have others band under you to fight), 2) Tech, 3) Intel and 4) Memorial.
If you toss it, the chances of victory are OBVIOUSLY decreased.
I don't know what the power of the base will do, but it's better to find out than toss it because of fear. And if you're afraid of indoctrination, there's nothing stopping anyone from blowing it up later...
Galaxy fights reapers alone lose.
TIM with base fights reapers win.
By logic, then the reapers are more powerful than the Galaxy, and TIM/Cereberus is more powerful than the Reapers, then TIM/Cereberus is more powerful than the Galaxy. So since his stated goal is human domination, TIM will rule the Galaxy.....Congratulations, you defeat the Reapers and have to exist in a galaxy ruled by TIM to the destruction of most Alien life.
The Reapers are more powerful than the Galaxy? I don't nkow. They're millions of years old. Defeating the Galaxy or whatever you're talking about happens every 50k years for them. Math time maybe?
And you're speculating now that the galaxy is ruled by TIM. Nice. Since when did TIM become stronger than the Reapers?! What are you talking about?
If by facts you mean speculation, sure thing, Saucy Mc Faulty Brain Fart.My facts......
1)To beat the Reapers I need the united forces of all the Galaxy...Turian, Asari, Human, Geth, Rachni, Krogan, Drell, Volus, Hanar, Batarian, and any others that I can get.
2)Information from the base may help(mined by EDI during assault), but it is not crucial to have my own reapers, so I don't need the base.
3)TIM can go suck eggs if he is not helping to defeat the Reapers.
Also, as I stated earlier, keeping the base would be a good proof to the Council that Reapers are real. See, they still don't believe you. Even after 2 games. Might want to work on that Sally of yours.
Individual Species fight reapers lose.
Combined Galaxy fights reapers win.
By logic, then the combined forces are better than the Reapers. Our goal is the preservation of all civilization. The Reapers have tried very hard to not face the combined Galaxy, so this indicates a weakness. Since TIM gets to sucks eggs most of the game, the Galaxy continues much the way it has since humans arrived.....Congratulations, we defeated the Reapers and have a multi-species government working for the betterment of all.
If you say TIM is not more powerful than the entire galaxy, what makes him more able to defeat the Reapers than the entire Galaxy??
I have no idea what you're trying to prove. It's like you're saying "Reapers = 1000 points". "Galaxy Combined = 2000 points" or some weird math struggle. And when these two forces fight, the Galaxy wins?
You don't know how to stop the Reapers. You don't know what it'll take. Your little fantasy logical world of Reapers > Galaxy > TIM or whatever is hilarious.
Nice try though. I think I saw where you were going with that. Still don't know how you came up with that brand of thinking, but hey. Always nice to try.
#387
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 03:54
smudboy
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Turkeysock wrote...
Everyone, ignore Smud, he's proven that he isn't here to actually have a civil debate, he's just here to boost what little self confidence he has.
As to the debate. Frankly, I think everything that needs to be said, has been said for both sides. I think it's time we call it quits. I had a lot of fun debating with folks, and I've come to understand those who've actually took the topic somewhat serious. I hope I get to debate with you guys in the near future about some other stuff.
Everyone ignore Turkeysock. He's proven that he isn't here to actually have a reasonable debate, he's just here to ramble on about being afraid of TIM. And smudboy's ridiculously large amount of testosterone.
As to the debate, Shirley, I think everything that needs to be typed, hasn't finished. There's a lot of dumb people out there. I think it's time we call it a night, and start up tomorrow morning. I had a lot of fun telling people simple truths, and have come to laugh at those that didn't see basic reasoning and logic, and used ad hominem examples to point out flaws in their own. I hope I get to continue stating simple truths with basic logic to these fellows in the near future about other stuff, to see just how comical they've become.
#388
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 04:21
jasonontko
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smudboy wrote...
Turkeysock wrote...
Everyone, ignore Smud, he's proven that he isn't here to actually have a civil debate, he's just here to boost what little self confidence he has.
As to the debate. Frankly, I think everything that needs to be said, has been said for both sides. I think it's time we call it quits. I had a lot of fun debating with folks, and I've come to understand those who've actually took the topic somewhat serious. I hope I get to debate with you guys in the near future about some other stuff.
Everyone ignore Turkeysock. He's proven that he isn't here to actually have a reasonable debate, he's just here to ramble on about being afraid of TIM. And smudboy's ridiculously large amount of testosterone.
As to the debate, Shirley, I think everything that needs to be typed, hasn't finished. There's a lot of dumb people out there. I think it's time we call it a night, and start up tomorrow morning. I had a lot of fun telling people simple truths, and have come to laugh at those that didn't see basic reasoning and logic, and used ad hominem examples to point out flaws in their own. I hope I get to continue stating simple truths with basic logic to these fellows in the near future about other stuff, to see just how comical they've become.
Smud you are right, your logic is impeccable. But you will never get these guys to admit that they are risking total extiction of all organic life in order to sate their emotions.
#389
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 05:59
rasblak
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- 141 messages
Turkeysock wrote...
I do believe that whole sign comment was more of an intentional attack on my intelligence. I called it out, I didn't play the victim card, I called it out and you played the victim card. And now you are once against twisting what I said to fit into your argument>.>
What you call "called it out" is what I call "play the victim card". We'll just have to agree to disagree.
TurkeySock wrote...
I am arguing with facts that we know about both TIM and Reaper tech. You are arguing with speculation of what the base MIGHT hold. It is pure speculation that there is anything that might help out TIM in coming up with a way to defeat the Reapers. And, even if EDI said there was a ton of info and tech to get, I still would've blown up the base because of TIM.
You so distrust Cerberus and TIM that no matter what EDI told you about the base, even if she spelled it out that
there is vital information here that can prevent the fight against the Reapers from leading to disastrous numbers of casualties for humanity, you would have blown it up because of TIM.
In my opinion then, you fully deserved the trashing Ashley/Kaiden gave you on Horizon then.
WTF are you even ever talking to the guy for? WTF do you go and recruit a Krogan(!) on his say-so for?
WTF do you go and recruit any of the people you don't even know on his say-so for?
#390
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 03:13
Bigdoser
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- 2 575 messages
I swear vigil said that a united galaxy can defeat the reapers?
#391
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 04:39
rasblak
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- 141 messages
jasonontko wrote...
smudboy wrote...
Turkeysock wrote...
Everyone, ignore Smud, he's proven that he isn't here to actually have a civil debate, he's just here to boost what little self confidence he has.
As to the debate. Frankly, I think everything that needs to be said, has been said for both sides. I think it's time we call it quits. I had a lot of fun debating with folks, and I've come to understand those who've actually took the topic somewhat serious. I hope I get to debate with you guys in the near future about some other stuff.
Everyone ignore Turkeysock. He's proven that he isn't here to actually have a reasonable debate, he's just here to ramble on about being afraid of TIM. And smudboy's ridiculously large amount of testosterone.
As to the debate, Shirley, I think everything that needs to be typed, hasn't finished. There's a lot of dumb people out there. I think it's time we call it a night, and start up tomorrow morning. I had a lot of fun telling people simple truths, and have come to laugh at those that didn't see basic reasoning and logic, and used ad hominem examples to point out flaws in their own. I hope I get to continue stating simple truths with basic logic to these fellows in the near future about other stuff, to see just how comical they've become.
Smud you are right, your logic is impeccable. But you will never get these guys to admit that they are risking total extiction of all organic life in order to sate their emotions.
I am one guy who's kept the base too. That's the _logical_ thing to do, even with TIM factored in.
(Many a base destroyers has tried to take that away from us, because they want to blow up their cake and eat it too)
However, it's understandable that for some it's not necessarily the "right" thing to do; how do you tell the families of
those who died there that you didn't deem necessary to send an immediate response to the Reapers in the form
of blowing up that "abomination" of a base?!
To have BurstAngel75 mention her military experience did get me thinking from a different perspective though. It's easy for us to sit at our computers
and go with what logic dictates; however many of the actual soldiers out there are fighting with their hearts.
To quote The Departed: Fight logically, or fight with heart, when you're facing a storming Reaper, what's the difference?
#392
Guest_Tighue_*
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 05:51
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I'm inclined to agree with the observation that Harbinger narrowly cheated death aboard the Collector base. Sovereign's demise was clearly linked to the destruction of Saren's husk in Mass Effect. The reaper transferred its "will" to Saren only to die in a bare knuckle brawl aboard the Citadel. In the end, the Alliance fleet mopped the nebula with Sovereign because it literally didn't have the will to survive.
On Topic: When presented with the option to secure the Collector base for Cerberus, I wasn't convinced that the organization had the proper resources or leadership in place to safely manage the spoils of war. Cerberus' track record didn't win the Illusive Man any special consideration. "We meant well" often falls flat in the face of atrocity.
On Topic: When presented with the option to secure the Collector base for Cerberus, I wasn't convinced that the organization had the proper resources or leadership in place to safely manage the spoils of war. Cerberus' track record didn't win the Illusive Man any special consideration. "We meant well" often falls flat in the face of atrocity.
#393
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 07:48
mosor
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I kept the base. We don't know enough about the reapers to destroy the thing. Shepard is an officer, he would know the first rule in war is to know your enemy. To pass up the chance at intel would be foolish. There is no guarantee EDI data mined anything vital or you'll find another way. When there are trillions of lives at stake, that's a high stakes gamble. Would it even be moral to gamble with so many lives just because you find the base or TIM offensive?
As for TIM, if he does become an enemy, he's certainly one I know better than the reapers. That's IF he becomes an enemy. The reapers ARE the enemy and the bigger threat. You need info on them if you want to win.
As for TIM, if he does become an enemy, he's certainly one I know better than the reapers. That's IF he becomes an enemy. The reapers ARE the enemy and the bigger threat. You need info on them if you want to win.
Modifié par mosor, 06 mars 2010 - 07:49 .
#394
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 08:07
rabbitchannel
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I've argued here before and it looks like it's all the same thing. Destroy the base side argues that it is too risky to give it to TIM. Keep the base side argues that Reapers > TIM. I agree with smudboy. Addressing the Reaper threat is what must take priority. TIM and everything else is nothing compared to them. Ideals and honor and all that are nice but they are of no use to the dead.
As I've said before, go destroy the base and when the Reapers consume us all you can say, "Well, at least TIM didn't get it. What a bastard he was."
As I've said before, go destroy the base and when the Reapers consume us all you can say, "Well, at least TIM didn't get it. What a bastard he was."
#395
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 08:09
rabbitchannel
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I've always seen it from a different perspective. See, if I got juiced in that base, I wouldn't want them to blow it up. What in the world would that solve? I would want them to use it to get revenge on those who juiced me in the first place.rasblak wrote...
jasonontko wrote...
smudboy wrote...
Turkeysock wrote...
Everyone, ignore Smud, he's proven that he isn't here to actually have a civil debate, he's just here to boost what little self confidence he has.
As to the debate. Frankly, I think everything that needs to be said, has been said for both sides. I think it's time we call it quits. I had a lot of fun debating with folks, and I've come to understand those who've actually took the topic somewhat serious. I hope I get to debate with you guys in the near future about some other stuff.
Everyone ignore Turkeysock. He's proven that he isn't here to actually have a reasonable debate, he's just here to ramble on about being afraid of TIM. And smudboy's ridiculously large amount of testosterone.
As to the debate, Shirley, I think everything that needs to be typed, hasn't finished. There's a lot of dumb people out there. I think it's time we call it a night, and start up tomorrow morning. I had a lot of fun telling people simple truths, and have come to laugh at those that didn't see basic reasoning and logic, and used ad hominem examples to point out flaws in their own. I hope I get to continue stating simple truths with basic logic to these fellows in the near future about other stuff, to see just how comical they've become.
Smud you are right, your logic is impeccable. But you will never get these guys to admit that they are risking total extiction of all organic life in order to sate their emotions.
I am one guy who's kept the base too. That's the _logical_ thing to do, even with TIM factored in.
(Many a base destroyers has tried to take that away from us, because they want to blow up their cake and eat it too)
However, it's understandable that for some it's not necessarily the "right" thing to do; how do you tell the families of
those who died there that you didn't deem necessary to send an immediate response to the Reapers in the form
of blowing up that "abomination" of a base?!
To have BurstAngel75 mention her military experience did get me thinking from a different perspective though. It's easy for us to sit at our computers
and go with what logic dictates; however many of the actual soldiers out there are fighting with their hearts.
To quote The Departed: Fight logically, or fight with heart, when you're facing a storming Reaper, what's the difference?
#396
Guest_Captain Cornhole_*
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 08:18
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As the person above me stated there are legitimate arguments for both sides. If Destroyed: How will we stop the Reapers? If Kept: Will TIM go crazy and build a Reaper for his own evil ends, plus not to mention indoctrination threat for Cerberus Ops working there.
Before my Xbox redringed (shipping it in today) I save the base the Reaper tech would come in handy. EDI has badass CyberWarfareSuites that are top of the line because they where recoverd from Sovereign. Not to mention the Turians reversed engineered Sovereign's main Mass Accelerator weapon; which comes inhandy blowing apart the Collectorship.
But there are those among you saving: "Dah, but Comrad? Sovereign said useing their tech and the Mass Relays is developing down the paths they desire!"
My counter arguement to that is, that useing their tech includes the Mass Relays. I don't think the Reapers would want us to Reverse Engineer Reaper and Collector Tech.
Before my Xbox redringed (shipping it in today) I save the base the Reaper tech would come in handy. EDI has badass CyberWarfareSuites that are top of the line because they where recoverd from Sovereign. Not to mention the Turians reversed engineered Sovereign's main Mass Accelerator weapon; which comes inhandy blowing apart the Collectorship.
But there are those among you saving: "Dah, but Comrad? Sovereign said useing their tech and the Mass Relays is developing down the paths they desire!"
My counter arguement to that is, that useing their tech includes the Mass Relays. I don't think the Reapers would want us to Reverse Engineer Reaper and Collector Tech.
#397
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 08:24
Exile Isan
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My problem with keeping the base is that you have to hand it over to TIM. And I don't like that idea. I don't even like the idea of handing it over to the Alliance or the Council, either. If my Shep could have kept it and had Tali, Mordin, and EDI use the tech there to better the fleets of the galaxy in a very controlled way then I would have been all for it. As it stands, however, that station is space dust.
#399
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 08:30
Vaenier
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Captain Cornhole wrote...
My counter arguement to that is, that useing their tech includes the Mass Relays. I don't think the Reapers would want us to Reverse Engineer Reaper and Collector Tech.
I just had a thought! [those are rare
] What if it isnt the Reapers that are evil, but their level of technology. Reapers have come and gone, and the civilizations that defeated them end up replacing them eventualy. That level of technology is inevitable for any space fairing race. The civilization only has to create one reaper, for defence or for war, to begin the cycle again.
#400
Guest_Tighue_*
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 10:44
Guest_Tighue_*
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rab****annel wrote...
I've argued here before and it looks like it's all the same thing. Destroy the base side argues that it is too risky to give it to TIM. Keep the base side argues that Reapers > TIM. I agree with smudboy. Addressing the Reaper threat is what must take priority. TIM and everything else is nothing compared to them. Ideals and honor and all that are nice but they are of no use to the dead.
As I've said before, go destroy the base and when the Reapers consume us all you can say, "Well, at least TIM didn't get it. What a bastard he was."
Basically.
To clarify my position: I think the Illusive Man is perfectly capable of doing the right thing. Regardless of what his level of involvement may or may not be in some cases, Cerberus operatives have repeatedly thwarted his oversight in pursuit of their own interests. Shepard witnessed this firsthand when the Lazarus project was sabotaged by a Cerberus agent.
Unfortunately, more often than not, the Illusive Man is there to clean up the mess well after the damage is already done. What's to prevent any one of his 150+ operatives from secretly dealing in reaper tech via the Shadow Broker? What guarantee does Shepard have that Cerberus won't be infiltrated by spies or agents of information brokers? How do we know that Cerberus hasn't already been compromised? Did an individual or an organization infiltrate Cerberus to sabotage Lazarus?
Do I think Cerberus will build a reaper to kill a reaper? No. Do I think Cerberus would perform experiments with indoctrination technology? Yes. In fact, they already have. On humans, no less. Shepard cleaned that mess up in Mass Effect. Do I think that Cerberus can prevent spies (if not its own agents) from acquiring and proliferating reaper tech? No, which is why I'd rather incinerate a reaper factory than run the risk of that knowledge surviving the destruction of Harbinger's fleet.
Modifié par Tighue, 06 mars 2010 - 10:46 .
