619 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Coake]

Busomjack wrote...

I don't think the Collector ship would cause indoctrination. Only Reapers look like they're capable of indoctrinating organics, not Reaper related technology.

Do some exploring.  Theres a system that has a planet with an archeology digsite sending out a distress signal.  After you land, you discover that the people there had uncovered a piece of reaper tech that was capable of indoctrinating people.  Everything there gets turned into a husk, and you end up fighting waves of them as you try to blow up the relic.

Reaper tech in any form is just plain bad hoodoo.  I barely trust EDI and the Thanix cannon because of what both are based on.

[Halmiriliath]

rab****annel wrote...

I've argued here before and it looks like it's all the same thing. Destroy the base side argues that it is too risky to give it to TIM. Keep the base side argues that Reapers > TIM. I agree with smudboy. Addressing the Reaper threat is what must take priority. TIM and everything else is nothing compared to them. Ideals and honor and all that are nice but they are of no use to the dead.

As I've said before, go destroy the base and when the Reapers consume us all you can say, "Well, at least TIM didn't get it. What a bastard he was."

You are indeed right that the same arguments are being put forward again and again, for one simple reason - certain posters aren't taking the time to understand what others are saying, and are interpreting it their own way and gleefully spew vituperation at them for being 'idiotic'. Please, people, keep it civil.

I also addressed the 'ideals are no use to the dead' before: what good is survival if the price you pay is disgustingly high? What precedent does that set for equally difficult decisions in the future? What if you believe there is more to existence than this life, thus making death merely a natural advancement into your next state of being? Doesn't that mean that you would stick to your ideals and accept death? Mordin, after all, mentioned that Salarian religion places emphasis on reincarnation, so it is not an alien concept.

[rabbitchannel]

Halmiriliath wrote...

rab****annel wrote...

I've argued here before and it looks like it's all the same thing. Destroy the base side argues that it is too risky to give it to TIM. Keep the base side argues that Reapers > TIM. I agree with smudboy. Addressing the Reaper threat is what must take priority. TIM and everything else is nothing compared to them. Ideals and honor and all that are nice but they are of no use to the dead.

As I've said before, go destroy the base and when the Reapers consume us all you can say, "Well, at least TIM didn't get it. What a bastard he was."

You are indeed right that the same arguments are being put forward again and again, for one simple reason - certain posters aren't taking the time to understand what others are saying, and are interpreting it their own way and gleefully spew vituperation at them for being 'idiotic'. Please, people, keep it civil.

I also addressed the 'ideals are no use to the dead' before: what good is survival if the price you pay is disgustingly high? What precedent does that set for equally difficult decisions in the future? What if you believe there is more to existence than this life, thus making death merely a natural advancement into your next state of being? Doesn't that mean that you would stick to your ideals and accept death? Mordin, after all, mentioned that Salarian religion places emphasis on reincarnation, so it is not an alien concept.

That assumes that the price is that high in the first place. Perhaps if we were to incorporate Reaper tech into our bodies and assume some sort of pseudo-Collector form that will give us an edge against the Reapers, I would agree that the price would be too high. As it stands, however, I feel that the claims that the price of keeping the base alone is too high is a gross exaggeration stemming from fear of TIM and fear of the base due to superstition and emotion.

Modifié par rabbitchannel, 06 mars 2010 - 11:19 .

[Halmiriliath]

rab****annel wrote...

That assumes that the price is that high in the first place. Perhaps if we were to incorporate Reaper tech into our bodies and assume some sort of pseudo-Colector form that will give us an edge against the Reapers, I would agree that the price would be too high. As it stands, however, I feel that the claims that the price of keeping the base alone is too high is a gross exaggeration stemming from fear of TIM and fear of the base due to superstition and emotion.

And therein lies the crux of this argument - this is all speculation. My responses were more a rebuttal of the fact that some posters were interpreting 'I destroyed the base' as meaning that said person did so simply because Cerberus and the Illusive Man are 'evil', rather than actually making a calculated decision that weighed up the pros and cons. Given that Reaper indoctrination can be a subtle process that is hard to identify (as seen with Saren), my opinion is that anyone who goes in there runs the risk of being altered to follow a path the Reapers desire. It doesn't matter that the Reapers aren't there anymore - the fact that they had exerted their influence there previously is enough to put me off. 

[rabbitchannel]

Halmiriliath wrote...

rab****annel wrote...

That assumes that the price is that high in the first place. Perhaps if we were to incorporate Reaper tech into our bodies and assume some sort of pseudo-Colector form that will give us an edge against the Reapers, I would agree that the price would be too high. As it stands, however, I feel that the claims that the price of keeping the base alone is too high is a gross exaggeration stemming from fear of TIM and fear of the base due to superstition and emotion.

And therein lies the crux of this argument - this is all speculation. My responses were more a rebuttal of the fact that some posters were interpreting 'I destroyed the base' as meaning that said person did so simply because Cerberus and the Illusive Man are 'evil', rather than actually making a calculated decision that weighed up the pros and cons. Given that Reaper indoctrination can be a subtle process that is hard to identify (as seen with Saren), my opinion is that anyone who goes in there runs the risk of being altered to follow a path the Reapers desire. It doesn't matter that the Reapers aren't there anymore - the fact that they had exerted their influence there previously is enough to put me off. 

That is because as the discussions developed and arguments were picked apart, that's what it all boiled down to. Mainly, 'TIM is a bad man', 'Cerberus sucks at experiments', 'we don't know the base has good stuff in it', and, 'But people got juiced!' I am open to new arguments though, as to why keeping the base is detrimental to our efforts instead of keeping it = bad news! 

Yes, arguments against that. I will state the basic premise.

Following down the Reapers' path = The Collector base was not intended to fall into our hands. Just because it's Reaper/Collector tech doesn't mean the Reapers planned it. 

Danger of Indoctrination = just because you got burned last time doesn't mean you will get burned again or will be unable to find a way to prevent it. As we have already seen indoctrination devices, our first move should be to destroy them. Indoctrination isn't instantaneous. As long as we can search small sections of the ship quickly and withdraw from the ship, we will be able to find them. 

"the fact that they had exerted their influence there previously is enough to put me off" If I were to take this alone I would consider it superstition.

[mnfdsnjklfdslkfds]

I chose to hand the base over to TIM. Regardless of his intentions we know one thing we can count on TIM getting: results. Cerberus has a knack for it. Other than risking lose all the precious information that could very well be present aboard the collector vessel, it is worth risking it in the hands of TIM. The only real power TIM has is his leverage over others anyways, and since we know he NEEDS Shepard to accomplish his goals, he will share his new found power with him. Council races could easily keep anyone in the dark if they had it, including Shepard. Once Cerberus learns what they can from the collector base Shepard will have his real choice to make.

[Halmiriliath]

rab****annel wrote...

That is because as the discussions developed and arguments were picked apart, that's what it all boiled down to. Mainly, 'TIM is a bad man', 'Cerberus sucks at experiments', 'we don't know the base has good stuff in it', and, 'But people got juiced!' I am open to new arguments though, as to why keeping the base is detrimental to our efforts instead of keeping it = bad news! 

Yes, arguments against that. I will state the basic premise.

Following down the Reapers' path = The Collector base was not intended to fall into our hands. Just because it's Reaper/Collector tech doesn't mean the Reapers planned it. 

Danger of Indoctrination = just because you got burned last time doesn't mean you will get burned again or will be unable to find a way to prevent it. As we have already seen indoctrination devices, our first move should be to destroy them. Indoctrination isn't instantaneous. As long as we can search small sections of the ship quickly and withdraw from the ship, we will be able to find them. 

"the fact that they had exerted their influence there previously is enough to put me off" If I were to take this alone I would consider it superstition.

I agree with your argument about 'following down the Reapers' path' - they may not have wanted us to find the base - but I'm not sure you'd be able to find a way to avoid any indoctrination technology there before succumbing to it yourself. Regarding finding the technology, I thought the entire Reaper/base had the indoctrination technology built into its very existence, so seeking to isolate any specific point is useless? The process, as I see it, is subtle, and constant replacement of teams would need to take place on the basis of a day or less, and even then you've got no way to prove that they haven't been altered even to the slightest degree.

What you said about searching small sections of the ship quickly to get the technology while avoiding indoctrination reminded me of Monty Python's 'Funniest Joke in the World' sketch, where they had to translate the joke into German word by word with different people so as to avoid laughing to death, so thanks for that!

Edit: I would also add that there isn't anything necessarily wrong with the arguments you've boiled down. The 'But people got juiced!' argument is another of the key reasons I destroyed it. 

Modifié par Halmiriliath, 07 mars 2010 - 12:21 .

[UltimateRC]

Lesser of two evils choice for me. I didn't trust TIM at all from the word go. I don't agree with his methods, I don't like his attitude and I don't think his organisation is as great as he thinks it is. I'm not about to give him a massive collector ship when his organisation is so shady and often imcompetant.

If there WAS the option to somehow bring it into full view of the council and let them set up a joint investigation / research team, I would. But theres not.

Modifié par UltimateRC, 07 mars 2010 - 12:25 .

[rabbitchannel]

Halmiriliath wrote...

rab****annel wrote...

That is because as the discussions developed and arguments were picked apart, that's what it all boiled down to. Mainly, 'TIM is a bad man', 'Cerberus sucks at experiments', 'we don't know the base has good stuff in it', and, 'But people got juiced!' I am open to new arguments though, as to why keeping the base is detrimental to our efforts instead of keeping it = bad news! 

Yes, arguments against that. I will state the basic premise.

Following down the Reapers' path = The Collector base was not intended to fall into our hands. Just because it's Reaper/Collector tech doesn't mean the Reapers planned it. 

Danger of Indoctrination = just because you got burned last time doesn't mean you will get burned again or will be unable to find a way to prevent it. As we have already seen indoctrination devices, our first move should be to destroy them. Indoctrination isn't instantaneous. As long as we can search small sections of the ship quickly and withdraw from the ship, we will be able to find them. 

"the fact that they had exerted their influence there previously is enough to put me off" If I were to take this alone I would consider it superstition.

I agree with your argument about 'following down the Reapers' path' - they may not have wanted us to find the base - but I'm not sure you'd be able to find a way to avoid any indoctrination technology there before succumbing to it yourself. Regarding finding the technology, I thought the entire Reaper/base had the indoctrination technology built into its very existence, so seeking to isolate any specific point is useless? The process, as I see it, is subtle, and constant replacement of teams would need to take place on the basis of a day or less, and even then you've got no way to prove that they haven't been altered even to the slightest degree.

What you said about searching small sections of the ship quickly to get the technology while avoiding indoctrination reminded me of Monty Python's 'Funniest Joke in the World' sketch, where they had to translate the joke into German word by word with different people so as to avoid laughing to death, so thanks for that!

Nah, haven't you done that side quest where everyone gets turned to husks and you have to destroy the indoctrination device? Bit weird, actually, I would have disabled it. Not destroyed it completely. 

We can estimate the time you can spend in the base using the time it took for Shepard to get in and out of the Collector Ship, the Collector base, and the derelict Reaper and the time it took for the Cerberus team to start showing signs of indoctrination/hallucination in the Reaper. The latter is documented so while you may not be able to pinpoint it exactly due to the subtlety, you would still be able to estimate with a margin of error. All teams must be carefully and painstakingly scrutinized, of course. And yes, I anticipate that there have to be many teams entering and leaving within a span of ~a day (really rough guess). 

"Edit: I would also add that there isn't anything necessarily wrong with the arguments you've boiled down. The 'But people got juiced!' argument is another of the key reasons I destroyed it."

Yeah, but then our arguments are:

TIM is evil: Reapers more evil.

Cerberus sucks at experiments: No, 100% of a fraction of Cerberus' experiments have failed. That fraction being what you have seen. The others, you have not seen. And the probability of Cerberus having a terrible record, with it's current power, position, backing, funding, and influence is highly unlikely.

We don't know the base has good stuff in it: Ugh. Aside from the bodies and weapons of countless foes, data can be salvaged from the banks and mechanical/non-digital technology will still be intact. At least concede that there is a higher change of there being something useful in the Collector BASE than that chance that there will not.

But people got juiced!: So? :|

Modifié par rabbitchannel, 07 mars 2010 - 12:37 .

[Leather_Rebel90]

I destroyed it for several reasons.

1) I do not trust The Illusive man at all.
2) Giving Cerberus the ability to construct an actual Reaper is pretty stupid, considering they're an ignorant hate-group.
3) I'm going to kill all the Reapers and anything to do with them... Including that base. 

[AgenTBC]

My Shepherd is a paragon. He saves his people, nobody gets left behind yadda yadda yadda. He also knows that there is nothing, and I mean nothing, more important than stopping the Reapers. These are a bunch of ancient sentient machines (I'm going to ignore the bio-stuff, because its just dumb. Implacable machines are much scarier) who have repeatedly scrubbed the galaxy of sentient organic life. In cycles. Over millions of years. Except for the ones they made into meat-puppets.



And we're worried that TIM is a bad man who might use tech for nefarious purposes at some unspecified point in the future? Like AFTER we avoid complete and utter annihilation at the hands of an unstoppable, implacable, ancient horde of giant sentient machines? That's a problem for tomorrow. Right now we're just trying to make sure there *is* a tomorrow.



Besides, I've got the Normandy SR-2. I've got a crew of the most kick-ass people in the galaxy. I've repeatedly proven that I can lay some serious beatdown on Cerberus and there's generally nothing they can do to stop me. TIM getting a bit problematic with the base after we save the galaxy from an aeons-old threat? I'll take him out. He couldn't stop me before. He won't be able to stop me in the future. He's nothing compared to the Reapers.



There's a reason the right decision was to ignore the Destiny Ascension and concentrate all fire on Sovereign. Diverting resources to protecting a few politicians is not noble; it's endangering every sentient organic being in the galaxy for purely symbolic reasons. Doing that is not being a paragon, it's being weak. It's like carrying your baby with you into a burning building because there's a cat inside; the priorities are so out of whack it's stunning.



The base is more problematic but still, on balance, destroying it because it might be a problem in the future is not obviously the morally correct decision. I agree that a third choice besides simply handing over the station to Cerberus is appropriate: my Shepherd's real action would have been to "hand it over" to Cerberus, and then promptly send its location to Anderson and the rest of the Council, with all records of the battle and what we discovered.



The choice the game gives us is a false one, but it's still not cut and dried like some people present it. Giving up a potential edge against the Reapers because of what might occur at some unspecified future date is not obviously the right decision. I think, on balance, it's the wrong one.

[AgenTBC]

Did I mention I just finished my first game? Yeah, I had to wait for my new computer to play. Started over halfway through to play on Insanity because Veteran was way too easy. Insanity was still way too easy, but at least I couldn't win by letting my cat play for me like on Veteran.

[Halmiriliath]

rab****annel wrote...

Nah, haven't you done that side quest where everyone gets turned to husks and you have to destroy the indoctrination device? Bit weird, actually, I would have disabled it. Not destroyed it completely. 

We can estimate the time you can spend in the base using the time it took for Shepard to get in and out of the Collector Ship, the Collector base, and the derelict Reaper and the time it took for the Cerberus team to start showing signs of indoctrination/hallucination in the Reaper. The latter is documented so while you may not be able to pinpoint it exactly due to the subtlety, you would still be able to estimate with a margin of error. All teams must be carefully and painstakingly scrutinized, of course. And yes, I anticipate that there have to be many teams entering and leaving within a span of ~a day (really rough guess). 

"Edit: I would also add that there isn't anything necessarily wrong with the arguments you've boiled down. The 'But people got juiced!' argument is another of the key reasons I destroyed it."

Yeah, but then our arguments are:

TIM is evil: Reapers more evil.

Cerberus sucks at experiments: No, 100% of a fraction of Cerberus' experiments have failed. That fraction being what you have seen. The others, you have not seen. And the probability of Cerberus having a terrible record, with it's current power, position, backing, funding, and influence is highly unlikely.

We don't know the base has good stuff in it: Ugh. Aside from the bodies and weapons of countless foes, data can be salvaged from the banks and mechanical/non-digital technology will still be intact. At least concede that there is a higher change of there being something useful in the Collector BASE than that chance that there will not.

But people got juiced!: So? :|

I did wonder about that device on the side mission. I thought the indoctrination process was all about changing the way people's minds worked, not transforming their bodies into husks. Perhaps I wasn't paying enough attention when it was briefly mentioned at such points as fighting the husk horde on the derelict Reaper or on Horizon, but I thought the body transormation was due to the Dragon's Teeth (or Spikes of Doom!)?

As I said before, I don't believe the Illusive Man is 'evil', and I don't really think we know enough about the Reapers to apply our own moral codes to them. I agree that Cerberus's track record with experiments would need to be good in order to keep their backers funding them, and there may indeed be something of potential value left by Harbinger in the Collector base. My issue with the 'But people got juiced!' is perhaps a result of the way I apply my logic to the situation, but here's how I see it: by adapting technology based on the liquidation of sentient life to your own purposes, it's sort of contradictory saying that you're using it save similar lives. Those who were liquidated were sentient beings, with just as much a right to live as those we profess to be saving, so do we hold the lives of those still alive to be more important than those who were chewed up in Collector/Reaper smoothie makers? It comes across as hypocrisy to me, but that's my opinion. Just don't go spreading it around...

[ResidentNoob]

I destroyed the base, because the last time we tried to use Reaper tech ourselves, the Collectors tracked us, boarded and kidnapped the entire crew.



Seriously, you don't think that the Reapers didn't forsee that this could ever happen? There's probably an indoctrination device or a remote self-destruct system. Either way, this is all going to blow up in Cerberus/humanity's face.

[sinisternym]

I noticed that if you choose to irradiate the base you don't destroy all the nearby ships (like the collector ship). Not only that everyone seems to forget that the station has shields powerful enough to withstand the black holes. Since it is still intact at the end you could attempt to salvage that tech.

[rabbitchannel]

Halmiriliath wrote...

rab****annel wrote...

Nah, haven't you done that side quest where everyone gets turned to husks and you have to destroy the indoctrination device? Bit weird, actually, I would have disabled it. Not destroyed it completely. 

We can estimate the time you can spend in the base using the time it took for Shepard to get in and out of the Collector Ship, the Collector base, and the derelict Reaper and the time it took for the Cerberus team to start showing signs of indoctrination/hallucination in the Reaper. The latter is documented so while you may not be able to pinpoint it exactly due to the subtlety, you would still be able to estimate with a margin of error. All teams must be carefully and painstakingly scrutinized, of course. And yes, I anticipate that there have to be many teams entering and leaving within a span of ~a day (really rough guess). 

"Edit: I would also add that there isn't anything necessarily wrong with the arguments you've boiled down. The 'But people got juiced!' argument is another of the key reasons I destroyed it."

Yeah, but then our arguments are:

TIM is evil: Reapers more evil.

Cerberus sucks at experiments: No, 100% of a fraction of Cerberus' experiments have failed. That fraction being what you have seen. The others, you have not seen. And the probability of Cerberus having a terrible record, with it's current power, position, backing, funding, and influence is highly unlikely.

We don't know the base has good stuff in it: Ugh. Aside from the bodies and weapons of countless foes, data can be salvaged from the banks and mechanical/non-digital technology will still be intact. At least concede that there is a higher change of there being something useful in the Collector BASE than that chance that there will not.

But people got juiced!: So? :|

I did wonder about that device on the side mission. I thought the indoctrination process was all about changing the way people's minds worked, not transforming their bodies into husks. Perhaps I wasn't paying enough attention when it was briefly mentioned at such points as fighting the husk horde on the derelict Reaper or on Horizon, but I thought the body transormation was due to the Dragon's Teeth (or Spikes of Doom!)?

As I said before, I don't believe the Illusive Man is 'evil', and I don't really think we know enough about the Reapers to apply our own moral codes to them. I agree that Cerberus's track record with experiments would need to be good in order to keep their backers funding them, and there may indeed be something of potential value left by Harbinger in the Collector base. My issue with the 'But people got juiced!' is perhaps a result of the way I apply my logic to the situation, but here's how I see it: by adapting technology based on the liquidation of sentient life to your own purposes, it's sort of contradictory saying that you're using it save similar lives. Those who were liquidated were sentient beings, with just as much a right to live as those we profess to be saving, so do we hold the lives of those still alive to be more important than those who were chewed up in Collector/Reaper smoothie makers? It comes across as hypocrisy to me, but that's my opinion. Just don't go spreading it around...

Hello again. I'm back from by brief but exasperating stint in that other thread. You know, I actually enjoy discussing with you. You don't argue with the same bull-headed stubbornness that everyone else (including me, probably) argues with.

I think there MAY be different levels of indoctrination. The default (without supervision) one being "turn yourselves into husks" while the more complex ones would be like Saren's where control would be exerted on their minds for allegiance. The indoctrination doesn't turn them into husks. Rather, they are ordered to turn themselves into husks. Maybe. d:

First time I've heard, "I don't think TIM is evil"! haha! As to my saying the Reapers are evil, I just used that term so it would match with "TIM is evil". I just mean the Reapers are a greater threat. Who knows, they may be kindly old things that regret doing this but they're still a threat.

As to your juicing point... I guess I can see where your coming from but it's not like we juiced them ourselves. Additionally, nothing we do from this point on will change the fact that they got juiced. The loss of life is tragic, I definitely agree, but I don't think you can phrase it as, "so do we hold the lives of those still alive to be more important than those who were chewed up in Collector/Reaper smoothie makers?". Would we hold the lives of those who were chewed up to be more important if we destroyed the base? In the first one, those who are alive benefit. But in the second one, where the base is destroyed, no one benefits. Lives are weighed equally but while you cannot save those who have been lost, you can still try to save those who are still fighting. Kind of repeated myself there. Whatever d:

[YankCane151]

The fact that advanced technology will be there is hard to argue against. The Collectors used to trade new technology for people/subjects, so that tech obviously has to be on the ship. Not to mention, there could possibly be a Prothean DNA bank of some sorts.

[Steel Dancer]

Why would anyone destroy the collector base?



Because the risk of it subverting via indoctrination any and all members of Cerberus that board it, potentially allowing the Reapers access to the entire intel and resources of Cerberus is one risk too many?



*blows the base up on yet another character*

[Kileyan]

It wasn't just about saving the base for its tech to create reapers or whatever. It was about all the knowledge on that base. To this day we know little more about the Reapers than that they are legendary boogey men. That base was full of more than the organic liquifier, it was tons of knowledge about the Reapers. The risk was worth it, even if we did lose a couple scientific teams to indoctrination. The knowledge there of the reapers tactics, motives, defenses, etc imho would have saved 10's of thousands of lives when it comes down to how we will approach fighting the reapers.



Too many people are putting forth silly movie situations where we must fight using only our own tech and knowledge to prove we are better than the reapers. If we can't do it on our own we don't deserve to live!!!



I hate those movies where the hero makes the stupid paragon choice to let the bad guy go, rather than "lower himself to that level", then the bad guy predictably comes back after them, usually kills more people, but the hero is all cool, because he didn't lower himself to his enemies level. I'm sure those dead folks appreciate his moral fortitude.



In short, put yourself into the shoes of a person that knows permanent death of the entire galaxy is coming. A hero would be willing to lower himself to the enemies level, make hard moral choices, sacrifice people. Once its all over, the galaxy is safe, then Shep will deal with those he lost and sacrificed, he will bare the brunt of the shock of what is took to save the galaxy. That is realistic. Not a perfect Shep who just assumes that the writers of the story will make it all turn out good, because he did all the good things, even if they weren't the smart things.

[Steel Dancer]

I tend to do a lot, if not all, of the side missions in both ME1 and ME2 and one thing is abundantly and consistently clear. Direct continued (even short term) exposure to Reaper tech does not end well. Ever.



Everytime I come across evidence of Reaper tech, it's done horrible, icky things to people - every single time.



Frankly, juggling sticks of plutonium while dancing through a minefield is about as safe as volounteering to work with Reaper tech. On top of which, there are no guarantees that there's anything of use in there at all... Unless the ability to purée people and put them in a tin can is one you desperately need....

[Halmiriliath]

rab****annel wrote...

Hello again. I'm back from by brief but exasperating stint in that other thread. You know, I actually enjoy discussing with you. You don't argue with the same bull-headed stubbornness that everyone else (including me, probably) argues with.

I think there MAY be different levels of indoctrination. The default (without supervision) one being "turn yourselves into husks" while the more complex ones would be like Saren's where control would be exerted on their minds for allegiance. The indoctrination doesn't turn them into husks. Rather, they are ordered to turn themselves into husks. Maybe. d:

First time I've heard, "I don't think TIM is evil"! haha! As to my saying the Reapers are evil, I just used that term so it would match with "TIM is evil". I just mean the Reapers are a greater threat. Who knows, they may be kindly old things that regret doing this but they're still a threat.

As to your juicing point... I guess I can see where your coming from but it's not like we juiced them ourselves. Additionally, nothing we do from this point on will change the fact that they got juiced. The loss of life is tragic, I definitely agree, but I don't think you can phrase it as, "so do we hold the lives of those still alive to be more important than those who were chewed up in Collector/Reaper smoothie makers?". Would we hold the lives of those who were chewed up to be more important if we destroyed the base? In the first one, those who are alive benefit. But in the second one, where the base is destroyed, no one benefits. Lives are weighed equally but while you cannot save those who have been lost, you can still try to save those who are still fighting. Kind of repeated myself there. Whatever d:

Gah! Must...avoid...sound logic... You're indoctrinating me now, that's what it is! You kept the base to bend us all to your will!

Joking aside, you make a good point. I think my own view largely centres around having respect for the dead, no matter how mushed up the Collector's made them. Although the soul may have left the body, I would still feel uncomfortable using technology salvaged from the base and thinking 'I wonder how many humans/sentient beings are incorporated into this gun/ship/space hamster.' 

I think an appropriate analogy is from the first Mass Effect where Samesh (sp?) Bhatia asks for your help in recovering his wife's body, who the Alliance are holding back to investigate the effects of Geth weaponry. If I was using technology gained from that, I would wonder if it was worth it when poor old Samesh will probably never know peace knowing his wife's dead body was probed and prodded and dissected for the sake of better weaponry/defence. If I used technology from the Collector base, I'd be equally uncomfortable knowing that the remains of someone like Lilith (from Horizon) were in it. Perhaps in situations like this, personal disgust should be put aside. Perhaps not...

Modifié par Halmiriliath, 09 mars 2010 - 02:51 .

[Kileyan]

Steel Dancer wrote...
On top of which, there are no guarantees that there's anything of use in there at all... Unless the ability to purée people and put them in a tin can is one you desperately need....

Yes, that base that has likely existed throughout several cycles, possibly even since the first reapers were created hold absolutely nothing but the human liquifying machine.

The information in the machine that directs the tech of turning organic things into reaper juice doesn't hold any hint or knowlege about the Reapers, its just a big 7-eleven slushy machine with no knowledge at all about what the Reapers really are, their weak points, their motives, and so on. (it friggin creates Reapers it is full of knowledge)

It is silly to think that the base is soley a reaper juice machine and doesn't hold info. Its not like we have so much info about the Reapers that we could think "blah, whats one more Reaper base", blow this one up, we have so so much info from those other Reaper bases.

We know little more about the Reapers than that they are big bad guys from some magical dimension(from our point of view), no way we'd destroy the one chance to learn more, even with the full knowledge of indoctrination.

Modifié par Kileyan, 09 mars 2010 - 02:52 .

[rabbitchannel]

Halmiriliath wrote...

rab****annel wrote...

Hello again. I'm back from by brief but exasperating stint in that other thread. You know, I actually enjoy discussing with you. You don't argue with the same bull-headed stubbornness that everyone else (including me, probably) argues with.

I think there MAY be different levels of indoctrination. The default (without supervision) one being "turn yourselves into husks" while the more complex ones would be like Saren's where control would be exerted on their minds for allegiance. The indoctrination doesn't turn them into husks. Rather, they are ordered to turn themselves into husks. Maybe. d:

First time I've heard, "I don't think TIM is evil"! haha! As to my saying the Reapers are evil, I just used that term so it would match with "TIM is evil". I just mean the Reapers are a greater threat. Who knows, they may be kindly old things that regret doing this but they're still a threat.

As to your juicing point... I guess I can see where your coming from but it's not like we juiced them ourselves. Additionally, nothing we do from this point on will change the fact that they got juiced. The loss of life is tragic, I definitely agree, but I don't think you can phrase it as, "so do we hold the lives of those still alive to be more important than those who were chewed up in Collector/Reaper smoothie makers?". Would we hold the lives of those who were chewed up to be more important if we destroyed the base? In the first one, those who are alive benefit. But in the second one, where the base is destroyed, no one benefits. Lives are weighed equally but while you cannot save those who have been lost, you can still try to save those who are still fighting. Kind of repeated myself there. Whatever d:

Gah! Must...avoid...sound logic... You're indoctrinating me now, that's what it is! You kept the base to bend us all to your will!

Joking aside, you make a good point. I think my own view largely centres around having respect for the dead, no matter how mushed up the Collector's made them. Although the soul may have left the body, I would still feel uncomfortable using technology salvaged from the base and thinking 'I wonder how many humans/sentient beings are incorporated into this gun/ship/space hamster.' 

I think an appropriate analogy is from the first Mass Effect where Samesh (sp?) Bhatia asks for your help in recovering his wife's body, who the Alliance are holding back to investigate the effects of Geth weaponry. If I was using technology gained from that, I would wonder if it was worth it when poor old Samesh will probably never know peace knowing his wife's dead body was probed and prodded and dissected for the sake of better weaponry/defence. If I used technology from the Collector base, I'd be equally uncomfortable knowing that the remains of someone like Lilith (from Horizon) were in it. Perhaps in situations like this, personal disgust should be put aside. Perhaps not...

That's true. I would probably be a bit freaked myself if we were salvaging the human Reaper and some of the juice spilled on me.

HA! You know what? I chose to retrieve the body from the Alliance and give it to Samesh! Exact opposite of what I did with the base! That was because I considered it reasonable. Just one body won't hurt, I thought. Interesting. Perhaps from a parent's or lover's perspective, I WOULD be reluctant in keeping the base as I would always be reminded of their deaths upon seeing anything even remotely related to it. On the other hand, if I were the one who got juiced, I'd want them to use it to avenge those bastards who juiced me instead of destroying it. Hmm...

[brusher225]

codesmurf wrote...

Destroying the collector base makes no sense, it's not a paragon decision, it's a stupid decision. They were building a reaper at the base, so you're going to find some schematics telling you how it work, once you know how it works you can figure out the best way to kill it.

Sheppard is convinced that the reapers are still coming, so why destroy the only real information you have on your enemy? If he didn't want to work with Cerberus, why not make a pit stop at the citadel and get the council or the alliance to send a fleet to secure the base instead of Cerberus. Even if they don't believe you about the reapers, you have enough scans and other evidence to convince them that there is advanced technology that can be had.

I'm just venting because it seems that for ME2, you don't get to choose between being paragon and renegade, you get to choose between being an idiot or being a jerk.

Unfortunately the game didn't give occasion to turn the base over to the Alliance.  Another weak part of the story if you ask me as that would be the logical thing to do.

But since the game only gave you two options. Blow it up, or give it to Cerberus. There is no way you give any one man the power that could be gained by the potential advanced technolegy that could be gained from the Collector base. No way.  Especially the Illusive Man! That would be like giving ben laden a nucular bomb.

It's too bad they didn't allow you to give it to the Alliance though. I agree. I wouldn't have destroyed it in that case.