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[Kileyan]

Shandepared wrote...

Halmiriliath wrote...


I also addressed the 'ideals are no use to the dead' before: what good is survival if the price you pay is disgustingly high?

...because if you don't survive you won't be around to debate the ethics.

Yeh I hate these discussions. That is what being a hero is about. Shep can be all whimpy and wishy washy and doom the galaxy, but save his "soul".  Blah blah movie theatrics, no one does that in real life, sacrifice zillions to save their concious.

Or Shep can do some bad things, walk away at the end of the game and see the galaxy live, then we can see what happens to the man who made horrible decisions in order that the galaxy would survive. Suicide, a drunk, a drug addict, permanently put in a mental institution, or would he live the rest of his life running a home for the kids left without fathers due to the war. Whatever, but he wouldn't put the entire galaxy on the line just to play the stupid movie trope of trying to be "better than his enemy".

He'd take all the crap and guilt upon himself, and deal with it after it was over, and people were alive and safe.

Hamrilath, nothing is worth anything if you are dead. Their is no such thing as an existance being bad because you don't deserve it. That is terribad fiction drama.

Modifié par Kileyan, 09 mars 2010 - 04:50 .

[Canned Bullets]

Joker gets the blueprints for a Reaper anyways, just blew it up to ****** the Illusive Man off.

[Frieza1987]

As far as all of the arguments about how it would be impossible to study reaper technology due to indoctrination, couldn't they just use remote controlled robots off-site to eliminate the risk? I mean, we have that technology now so I don't think it's impossible.



And as far as TIM goes, I totally agree that he'll use the reaper tech for evil purposes. If he could, he would brutally subjugate the other alien species and create an empire that he was in complete control of. The thing is, this requires that the reapers are already destroyed. Even if the result is the creation of an evil, brutal, galaxy-wide dictator, the outcome is still better than no sentient life left at all in the galaxy (but at least you didn't go against you morals!). I think the chance to find some weakness in the reaper fleet, no matter how small, outweighs any risks.



Naturally, you can disagree with this, and say that there are worse things than death - but then you should be satisfied when you get a "The reapers have taken over the galaxy, GAME OVER" screen at the end of ME3.





All that being said, I don't really think that destroying the base will cause an automatic game over in ME3. We've already seen in ME1 that you can go the paragon route that makes no sense (saving the Destiny Ascension), and still defeat the reaper threat. Paragon Shep will pull some kind of miracle out of his a** and the galaxy will be saved anyway. In real life though, I wouldn't hesitate to keep the base.

[bchesson]

I don't think there's any way you're keeping the base in ME3 even if you decide not to destroy it. I agree with some other posters in other similar threads that there is a Reaper parked outside the Collector base. I think you can see it clear as day on the holographic map when everyone is in the Normandy's conference room. Also at the end when Harbinger releases his control on the Collector leader I would think that his body would have to be somewhere near the base. I'll bet if you save the base any Cerberus ships sent there are gonna wind up never heard from again.



I think it all really boils down to what's going to be the official cannon for ME2. I don't see the devs having a huge power difference between paragon and renegade endings. In ME1 regardless of whether you saved the Council on the Destiny Ascension or let them die to let humans take over the playing field is still level between paragon and renegade endings. I just don't see the devs making a decision like that..

[Tooneyman]

I figured out the best way to destroy the collectors base to even keep cerberus out. A gigantic stink bomb.

[Azint]

There aren't enough fingers on this hand to list reasons why it's morally wrong.

[Dualfinger]

The answer to why is easy! Remember Tali's loyality mission? What about all that hocuspocus over on Noveria and Feros. And don't forget that side mission in the first one with that research station that went dark because all the scientist became husks. Does anyone see the common trend here? Tech like that is some real juicy stuff, and as it generaly turns out, some idiot thinks to themselves



"This technology lightyears ahead of us and beyond our comprehension surely wouldn't activate with litte bit of power. Sure when the tech guys say it's deactivated then it is...right?"



I mean, look at the damage rouge VI's do (the Aliance training ground and that one on the ship. Many dead in both cases.). So does fumbling around with Reaper technology really sound like a good idea? Please also not the dead Reaper you board and the audio logs of people being affected by indoctrination...on the "dead" Reaper. All in all, dangerous unknown tech coupled with the presence of people is big problem just waiting to happen. Besides, if Harbringer can "talk" to the Collectors on the base, why can't he influence scientist working there?

[cutthecameras]

"I won't let fear compromise who I am" fits.

When toying with the idea of keeping the base I realized that the only reason I was considering to keep it was over fear. I just said "screw that" went with my initial gut instinct..

As long as you're using their technology the Reapers have a way of controlling you, bowing down to their technological prowess is exactly what they want; they will always master their technology better than you and they're coming fast. Before you're done analyzing even a third of what's there they will be right at the doorstep of the galaxy. So...not worth the risk.

Modifié par cutthecameras, 09 mars 2010 - 07:52 .

[OneBadAssMother]

1) Illusive man can't be trusted

2) Colonist/Sole Survivor character has too much bad history with Cerberus (Toombs side-quest in ME1)

3) ALL Cerberus research with enemy tech/biology has gone horridly wrong in the past. Other research strictly not involving enemy tech/biology came through, namingly Shepard/Normandy (though they only did a small part with Normandy)

[heretica]

Why I destroyed the Collector's Base:

•  They killed my FemShep, destroyed the Normandy and since then I've been expecting to get Kaidan back in the squad and it didn't happen so I nerdraged. 
• They work for the Reapers. 
• They were using OVER 9.000 humans to make juice.
• The Ilusive Man probably wanted to use their technology to enslave/destroy/dominate everyone who is not human. 
• I don't like Cerberus.

[Nynaeve]

To be honest it was one of the harder decisions for me in the game. I knew the 'right' thing to do would be to blow up the base, but I couldn't help feeling I was getting rid of loads of resources, but I pretty much hated TIM by that time, so blew it up just because he didn't want me to. I think I might keep it next time round.

I really didn't like the way we seemed to be nudged in the direction the developers wanted us to take sometimes, as everyuthing seems to point to destroying the base.

[DarthCaine]

OneBadAssMother wrote...

2) Colonist/Sole Survivor character has too much bad history with Cerberus (Toombs side-quest in ME1)

Colonist has no history with Cerberus

[Wildecker]

I destroyed the base. Face it: the tech you find there won't help you defeat the Reapers. It is theirs, they have used it for millions of years, so they know not only how to use it but also how to protect themselves from it. All you can gain from it is an illusion of power.

If you want to surprise them you need to think and to do research "out of the box", using ideas that have been gathering dust since mankind and all other races took the easy route and used the mass relays because they were there, left behind by the Reapers for exactly that purpose.

[Saurel]

Didn't read through the whole thread but noticed the second post basically touched upon my character's reasoning. Indoctrination. That and everything that touches anything remotely reaper-ish seems to go to hell. Didn't seem worth it.



So my reasoning was different than the "I won't use a place where humans were ground up" for our betterment. Mine was more "if you send dudes there, we're looking at a horror movie and we don't need more of that crap. TIM. If I may call you Tim, I get the feeling I would have saved you from a horrible fate of gauging out your own eyes."

[Halmiriliath]

Re. Shandepared and Kileyan 

My apologies for posting in this thread again - given that we still have the same polarised opinions that cannot be reconciled by discussion, nor by belittling everyone's argument that doesn't fit your own - but I feel that you've somewhat misrepresented my views. First off, you're assuming the reasoning behind my actions/statements, which is always wading into dangerous territory. Everyone has their own unique outlook on life, and my opinion on this isn't confined to the realms of film cliches, so please don't present it as such.
 
Second, both of your responses are based on a single sentence I made in a somewhat lengthy discussion with rab****annel. It is thus easy to take out of context and - if you haven't already done so - I'd advise you read some of my other posts to get the bigger picture, as it were.

With that, I will re-emphasise my last point in my previous post, and we can hopefully leave it at that: 'Perhaps in situations like this, personal disgust should be put aside. Perhaps not...'

[mnfdsnjklfdslkfds]

If we (meaning Shepard) can stop the reapers, I really don't think TIM will be a challenge if he gets out of line. TIM has a reaper/collector base, the reapers are... the reapers!!



What I'm trying to say is, using that base to our (Shepard's) advantage can only help us defeat the greater of two evils, if we fail all is lost anyways. If we succeed against the hyper advanced reapers that have existed for a eons, defeating TIM would be like pushing a little kid down on the playground: easy and fun.

[Mcjon01]

My personal stance on the Collector base is this: Blowing things up is just really, really awesome. I blew up Virmire, I blew up Jack's Cerberus facility, I blew up the Heretic Geth, I blew up the Collectors, and by God you give me some explosives and I'll blow up the Reapers too.

[mnfdsnjklfdslkfds]

Mcjon01 wrote...

My personal stance on the Collector base is this: Blowing things up is just really, really awesome. I blew up Virmire, I blew up Jack's Cerberus facility, I blew up the Heretic Geth, I blew up the Collectors, and by God you give me some explosives and I'll blow up the Reapers too.

LoL, best point thus far, I can't argue with that.

[spryforadeadguy]

Shandepared wrote...

Halmiriliath wrote...

Re. Shandepared and Kileyan 

My apologies for posting in this thread again - given that we still have the same polarised opinions that cannot be reconciled by discussion, nor by belittling everyone's argument that doesn't fit your own - but I feel that you've somewhat misrepresented my views. First off, you're assuming the reasoning behind my actions/statements, which is always wading into dangerous territory. Everyone has their own unique outlook on life, and my opinion on this isn't confined to the realms of film cliches, so please don't present it as such.
 
Second, both of your responses are based on a single sentence I made in a somewhat lengthy discussion with rab****annel. It is thus easy to take out of context and - if you haven't already done so - I'd advise you read some of my other posts to get the bigger picture, as it were.

With that, I will re-emphasise my last point in my previous post, and we can hopefully leave it at that: 'Perhaps in situations like this, personal disgust should be put aside. Perhaps not...'

I don't remember this thread too well so I'm just going to take your word for it.

In any case, a summary of my position.

Keep the base. It may provide valuable information that will help to defeat the Reapers. It will also help assure the dominance of humankind.

You may have to do unethical deeds to survive. That is never pretty, but it necessary. Ultimately you must survive if you are to ever be allowed the luxury of feeling guilty about the horrible decisions you had to make.

Sticking by your code and conscience is nice, but when all of existence is at stake you can't afford to do that.

First off, paragon Shepard is not out for the dominance of mankind.  Perhaps renegade Shepard is, but seeing as this seems to be a discussion of what the "right" or "good" choice is, renegade Shepard is rather irrelevant.

It has already been stated that it is unlikely any truly useful tech or knowledge would come from studying the base, at least within the (relatively) short amount of time we're likely to have before the beginning of ME3.  It has also been stated that such gains would be akin to using the mass relays: exactly how the Reapers would want us to develop.  Last, but certainly not least, the chance of indoctrination is too great to risk long term study of the base.

Sticking by your code is indeed quite nice, especially when it's backed by practical reasoning.

[eternalnightmare13]

codesmurf wrote...

...you don't get to choose between being paragon and renegade, you get to choose between being an idiot or being a jerk.

We most be playing totally different games then...hrmmm...interesting.

[GodWood]

This is one of the few things that I hate about Mass Effect.

No matter how big a decision you make, Shepard will have the power of plot.



In reality its stupid to destroy the Collector Base, the galaxy is fighting a race of giant sentient machines that have wiped out all organic life countless times.

Now actually stop and think about it, their have been so many galactic civilizations before the current one, some may of been further behind in technology, some legions ahead, some of them single species councils, some multicultural ones, all of them had their own technological advances, great historical persons, wars, celebrations, all of them had their own religious views, philosphies and ethics.

All of them had great ballads and tales, some of great battles, some of love, some of tragic loss.

All of them had their own individual sapient lifeforms.



All of them are dead.



Now to risk this happening again based on it being "ethically" wrong to keep the base is stupid.

To risk this happening again because you're a sole survivor and you hold a grudge against Cerberus is even more stupid.

To risk this happening again because you know Cerberus is corrupt is still stupid, regardless of what Cerberus beliefs or motivations are they are not going to do anything until the Reaper attack is over, the Reapers are the immediate threat and they are well aware of that, they know it took almost all of the council's warships to take down a single Reaper, so they are not going to risk a civil war with the galaxy when they know an even greater threat is at the galaxy's doorstep.



So I believe they will cause trouble afterwards, but that doesn't matter because until the Reaper threat is over we need all the best help their is to offer.





Unfortunately, at the end of the day the Mass Effect trilogy is a game and therefore the power of plot will exist, so no matter how dire the current situation is it'll all work out some how.

[Bigdoser]

GodWood wrote...

This is one of the few things that I hate about Mass Effect.
No matter how big a decision you make, Shepard will have the power of plot.

In reality its stupid to destroy the Collector Base, the galaxy is fighting a race of giant sentient machines that have wiped out all organic life countless times.
Now actually stop and think about it, their have been so many galactic civilizations before the current one, some may of been further behind in technology, some legions ahead, some of them single species councils, some multicultural ones, all of them had their own technological advances, great historical persons, wars, celebrations, all of them had their own religious views, philosphies and ethics.
All of them had great ballads and tales, some of great battles, some of love, some of tragic loss.
All of them had their own individual sapient lifeforms.

All of them are dead.

Now to risk this happening again based on it being "ethically" wrong to keep the base is stupid.
To risk this happening again because you're a sole survivor and you hold a grudge against Cerberus is even more stupid.
To risk this happening again because you know Cerberus is corrupt is still stupid, regardless of what Cerberus beliefs or motivations are they are not going to do anything until the Reaper attack is over, the Reapers are the immediate threat and they are well aware of that, they know it took almost all of the council's warships to take down a single Reaper, so they are not going to risk a civil war with the galaxy when they know an even greater threat is at the galaxy's doorstep.

So I believe they will cause trouble afterwards, but that doesn't matter because until the Reaper threat is over we need all the best help their is to offer.


Unfortunately, at the end of the day the Mass Effect trilogy is a game and therefore the power of plot will exist, so no matter how dire the current situation is it'll all work out some how.

The funney thing is people who destoryed the base is still gonna beat the reapers anyway .

[spryforadeadguy]

GodWood wrote...

This is one of the few things that I hate about Mass Effect.
No matter how big a decision you make, Shepard will have the power of plot.

In reality its stupid to destroy the Collector Base, the galaxy is fighting a race of giant sentient machines that have wiped out all organic life countless times.
Now actually stop and think about it, their have been so many galactic civilizations before the current one, some may of been further behind in technology, some legions ahead, some of them single species councils, some multicultural ones, all of them had their own technological advances, great historical persons, wars, celebrations, all of them had their own religious views, philosphies and ethics.
All of them had great ballads and tales, some of great battles, some of love, some of tragic loss.
All of them had their own individual sapient lifeforms.

All of them are dead.

Now to risk this happening again based on it being "ethically" wrong to keep the base is stupid.
To risk this happening again because you're a sole survivor and you hold a grudge against Cerberus is even more stupid.
To risk this happening again because you know Cerberus is corrupt is still stupid, regardless of what Cerberus beliefs or motivations are they are not going to do anything until the Reaper attack is over, the Reapers are the immediate threat and they are well aware of that, they know it took almost all of the council's warships to take down a single Reaper, so they are not going to risk a civil war with the galaxy when they know an even greater threat is at the galaxy's doorstep.

So I believe they will cause trouble afterwards, but that doesn't matter because until the Reaper threat is over we need all the best help their is to offer.


Unfortunately, at the end of the day the Mass Effect trilogy is a game and therefore the power of plot will exist, so no matter how dire the current situation is it'll all work out some how.

The argument keeps coming up that ethics and personal feelings about Cerberus are not enough to destroy the base.  The problem is that some of us aren't making this claim.  Like I said above, ethics backed by practical reasoning are certainly enough reason to destroy the base.  A radiation pulse will kill the Collectors, maybe even damage some of the station's systems, but how effective will it be on Reaper surveillance tech?  And if there are in fact indoctrination devices in the base, what then?  We've seen the effects of such devices, and they never turn out good.  Those in charge of the doomed projects thought they had control of their exposure, if they even knew they were being exposed at all.  Allowing scientists (or anyone, for that matter) to become Reaper pawns is not the way to save the galaxy.

Of course, I could be wrong; the base could be perfectly safe, and Cerberus might actually develop defenses against the Reapers.  My problem lies with three little words: we don't know.  There are far too many unknown quantities involved in keeping the Collector base to instill any sense of confidence in me.  I cannot, in good conscience, let Cerberus have that base knowing that it could just as easily doom the galaxy further as aid in the final fight.  Destroying the base simplifies things a great deal.  The base is useless, no one can be harmed by it further, nor could Harbinger use it to ensnare more thralls to his bidding; the galaxy is no worse off than it was before Shepard uses the Omega 4 relay.