619 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcjon01]

Shandepared wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...


A war now would be more even, but the Turians still have a bigger fleet by a fairly large margin.

Then why haven't they used it?

If humans are at such a huge disadvantage why isn't anyone kicking our ass?

Because they have no interest in using it against humans.  Hell, the Turians are actually somewhat pleased with the Council dying, since they no longer feel bound by the Treaty of Farixen and are free to massively increase their fleet building efforts.

[Dethateer]

Shandepared wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Because a civil war would be too costly during a galactic crisis?

What galactic crisis?

*points to the massive Reaper fleet slowly approaching the galaxy*

[Jonathan Shepard]

codesmurf wrote...

Destroying the collector base makes no sense, it's not a paragon decision, it's a stupid decision. They were building a reaper at the base, so you're going to find some schematics telling you how it work, once you know how it works you can figure out the best way to kill it.

Sheppard is convinced that the reapers are still coming, so why destroy the only real information you have on your enemy? If he didn't want to work with Cerberus, why not make a pit stop at the citadel and get the council or the alliance to send a fleet to secure the base instead of Cerberus. Even if they don't believe you about the reapers, you have enough scans and other evidence to convince them that there is advanced technology that can be had.

I'm just venting because it seems that for ME2, you don't get to choose between being paragon and renegade, you get to choose between being an idiot or being a jerk.

There should be a patch that allows you to decide between giving it to the council or Cerberus... like there was for choosing Anderson vs. Udina. I'd even pay for that because it would fix my biggest issue with this game.

[Speakeasy13]

Shandepared wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...


A war now would be more even, but the Turians still have a bigger fleet by a fairly large margin.

Then why haven't they used it?

If humans are at such a huge disadvantage why isn't anyone kicking our ass?

Because unlike you, the majority of them don't have an inferiority complex or feel the need to prove themselves by proving others "unworthy"? If you want respect, helping others is the way to go; if you want tyranny, you're on the right track. Fortunately the universe operates mostly on respect not tyranny, which makes me glad that it's not ppl like you who are in charge.

Oh do I have to remind you that the Turian provided for some of the most advanced technologies in alliance warships? They could've kicked our human ass easily, but they didn't want to. Now learn to be grateful of the kindness you've been given you pathetic little human.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 20 mars 2010 - 02:08 .

[TheAzureVanguard]

Because it's an evil place and I don't trust The Illusive Man...?



That being said though I have 1 paragon and 1 renegade that completely oblirated it while my 2nd paragon and 2nd renegade keep the facility. Just to see how this plays out....

[Mcjon01]

Shandepared wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...

Because they have no interest in using it against humans.  Hell, the Turians are actually somewhat pleased with the Council dying, since they no longer feel bound by the Treaty of Farixen and are free to massively increase their fleet building efforts.

Then it seems everyone has benefited, shouldn't you be happy?

Of course not.  I really liked that Salarian councillor.  Even ol' airquotes had a special place in my heart.  I grieve on a personal level.

[Dethateer]

Unfortunately, at least currently, international relations aren't based on respect between nations. It's about who has the most nukes and/or controls the most money. But in the ME universe, yes, interspecies relations are based quite a bit on respect.

[Speakeasy13]

Shandepared wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Because unlike you, the majority of them don't have an inferiority complex or feel the need to prove themselves by disapproving others?

Oh yeah, they're totally above that kind of thing.

Also your post is ironic.

Oooh after that many posts I'm glad I've FINALLY helped you discover the beauty of irony. Didn't know you had it in ya.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 20 mars 2010 - 02:11 .

[Speakeasy13]

Shandepared wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Unfortunately, at least currently, international relations aren't based on respect between nations. It's about who has the most nukes and/or controls the most money. But in the ME universe, yes, interspecies relations are based quite a bit on respect.

I don't see any evidence of that.

Evidence of what, the fact that humanity do not operate on respect or that the rest of the universe do?

[Asheer_Khan]

Shandepared wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...

Because they have no interest in using it against humans.  Hell, the Turians are actually somewhat pleased with the Council dying, since they no longer feel bound by the Treaty of Farixen and are free to massively increase their fleet building efforts.

Then it seems everyone has benefited, shouldn't you be happy?

I am not sure if you really so blind on obvious facts or just too stuborn to realize  what will happened when Turian fleet no longer restricted by ANY treaties reach full capacity when Alliance will be wide spread in effort to defend every colonies.

Of course they don't start anything YET but i would dare to predict that soon or later Alliance fleet will face Space Pearl Harbor when masive Turian fleet will attack Arcturus Station which is key base for Alliance in Citadel Space.

And yes Harbinger and Co will laught very loud when reapers arrive to galaxy in the middle of the war Alliance vs rest of the galaxy... because that's EXACLY wht they want.

Of course all this debate is trictly hypotetical because there is no indications that devs will go in such extreme renegade scenario but on the other hand... many renegades could be veeery surprised what "paradise" they created for ME 3... when my Paragon Shepard will stand in front of powerful multiracial Alliance fleet when Harby decide to pay us a visit^_^

[Bigdoser]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...


A war now would be more even, but the Turians still have a bigger fleet by a fairly large margin.

Then why haven't they used it?

If humans are at such a huge disadvantage why isn't anyone kicking our ass?

Because unlike you, the majority of them don't have an inferiority complex or feel the need to prove themselves by proving others "unworthy"? If you want respect, helping others is the way to go; if you want tyranny, you're on the right track. Fortunately the universe operates mostly on respect not tyranny, which makes me glad that it's not ppl like you who are in charge.

Oh do I have to remind you that the Turian provided for some of the most advanced technologies in alliance warships? They could've kicked our human ass easily, but they didn't want to. Now learn to be grateful of the kindness you've been given you pathetic little human.

This.

[Halmiriliath]

And here was me thinking this thread had finally slipped into the obscurity it desperately craves...

It's interesting, Shandepared, that you would keep the base not just to combat the Reapers, but to assure human dominance in the galaxy. And it's also interesting that you base said view on both history and the principle of realpolitik. But I would beg to differ. Indeed, while many of the world empires envisioned their race as being superior, and used both technology and violence to advance their claims, it is a precarious existence. You will always end up with a small, supposedly superior group ruling over a vastly larger - and now dangerously embittered - 'inferior' group/groups. Sparta, for example, had a small group of Spartiates and a vast number of helots that, inevitably, revolted and reduced Sparta to its original territories while leaving it dangerously weak. More recently, the British Empire at its apex ruled over a quarter (I think) of the world's population, and often justified their rule by emphasising the superiority of the British/white European 'race' as part of a process of 'civilisation' and the dissemination of technology.  The slow dismantling of the imperial infrastructure shows how this line goes down with those who are not part of this exclusive group.

What I'm saying is human dominance of the galaxy is not just unethical; it's impractical. Do you seriously think that, even if humanity had a larger arsenal than any other species, the other species would just sit down and take it?  They'd band together and resist, leaving the galaxy wide open to a Reaper invasion. Interspecies diplomacy and the maintanence of amicable relations is the practical path here. I've already stated why I'd destroy the Collector base, but this is why I would always reject the 'humans first' line.

[Bigdoser]

Halmiriliath wrote...

And here was me thinking this thread had finally slipped into the obscurity it desperately craves...

It's interesting, Shandepared, that you would keep the base not just to combat the Reapers, but to assure human dominance in the galaxy. And it's also interesting that you base said view on both history and the principle of realpolitik. But I would beg to differ. Indeed, while many of the world empires envisioned their race as being superior, and used both technology and violence to advance their claims, it is a precarious existence. You will always end up with a small, supposedly superior group ruling over a vastly larger - and now dangerously embittered - 'inferior' group/groups. Sparta, for example, had a small group of Spartiates and a vast number of helots that, inevitably, revolted and reduced Sparta to its original territories while leaving it dangerously weak. More recently, the British Empire at its apex ruled over a quarter (I think) of the world's population, and often justified their rule by emphasising the superiority of the British/white European 'race' as part of a process of 'civilisation' and the dissemination of technology.  The slow dismantling of the imperial infrastructure shows how this line goes down with those who are not part of this exclusive group.

What I'm saying is human dominance of the galaxy is not just unethical; it's impractical. Do you seriously think that, even if humanity had a larger arsenal than any other species, the other species would just sit down and take it?  They'd band together and resist, leaving the galaxy wide open to a Reaper invasion. Interspecies diplomacy and the maintanence of amicable relations is the practical path here. I've already stated why I'd destroy the Collector base, but this is why I would always reject the 'humans first' line.

This post is awesome as well.

[Speakeasy13]

Shandepared wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...


Evidence of what, the fact that humanity do not operate on respect or that the rest of the universe do?

The last part. As far as I can see politics in Mass Effect are pretty cut-throat. The Council has a rather bloody history.

IF the Council space history were truly cutthroat as you claimed:
- Why would the Asari even bother founding a council to SHARE Mass Effect technology to the rest of the galaxy? Why not keep the power for yourself and use it to dominate all the other races they ran into? Why do they let other races into their ranks?
- Why would the council stop the Turian from destroying Humanity completely when they had the chance? Surely it would render the Sol system utterly inhabitable, but that would've solved more problems than creating new ones. And the Krogans?
- Why do they bother helping us out? They gave us an embassy, helped us improved our technology, secured our colonies in council space (even at the expense of the Batarians).

They didn't have to do any of that that for us, or for anyone else for that matter. They did it not to assert their dominance as you would've done, they did it because because they RESPECT the right of every galactic speices to survive and florish, a right you will willingly deny others of. You have received kindness from them, but you're not willing to do the same to others. The bottom line is, as bureacratic and incompetent the Council may be sometimes, their logic is more noble than yours.

[MadCat221]

Why destroy the collector base? Because playing with technology you don't understand usually has catastrophic consequences.

The Illusive Man is like a toddler who found a bic lighter.  He wants to rev it around like a little toy car because of the fun little wheel thing and because it makes cool sparks.  That's how toddlers and bic lighters burn houses down.

And just like the toddler who has the lighter taken away from him, he throws a temper tantrum when you blow up the collector base.

Modifié par MadCat221, 20 mars 2010 - 06:09 .

[Speakeasy13]

You know Shandepared I might have agreed with you if we human have accomplished everything we've got on our own. But we didn't. Our greatest quality is our will to SURVIVE against all odds, not the desire to DOMINATE others. The only reason why we managed to go this far in council space is because we've won the respect and favor of others by demonstrating of said will to survive. Even our former enemies whom we fought in the 1st Contact War are so impressed with us that they're willing to help us forward. We would've never have gotten this far without their kindness. And that is why it's NOT okay for us to turn around and say, "screw you, you've made us stronger and we're now better than you so we don't need you in the universe anymore." That would be turning your back on everything that makes our species great.

If the prevailing opinion of our species is going to be so heartless and vain, then I'd wish we had perished during the 1st Contact War. At least than the universe will remember humanity as a species that fought with honor and pride, not oppurtunistic ungrateful bullies that advanced themselves at others' expense.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 20 mars 2010 - 06:22 .

[tempAE0F]

Shandepared, rasblak, and smudboy owned this thread.