619 réponses à ce sujet

[mrsrachelm]

If Shepard was with an organization he/she could trust then the decision to not destroy the base would be much mroe appealing. However, knowing Cerberus and how they have operated, manipulated and the opverall indication that they are out for galaxy domination...NOT desdtroying the base and leaving all that potential power in their hands is just asking for trouble. After the reapers were dealt with you just KNOW Cerberus would become the new "reaper" threat more or less and you'd have to start all the hell over again.

[rasblak]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

I couldn't understand anyone wanting to keep it. Even if the tech was already proven to not cause indoctrination, then what good is the base? Any ounce of information in there that is of any value, you can be pretty sure that EDI would have datamined it already while you were busy plowing through the Collectors to get to the core.

The only thing the base would give you is the ability to make more Reapers. As Shepard can say, "It liquified people!" that's all we know that the base did. Make new Reapers. Keeping the actual facility is pointless unless you're planning on juicing people to make your own Reaper, or letting the Illusive Man do so.

"EDI would have datamined it already"... easy and uber-cool, eh?
I used to wish my PC would do my homework for me too back in the day

But seriously, if EDI was powerful enough to do that, then EDI wouldn't need to do that because EDI would be
powerful enough to kick the reapers' as_ses already.

I'd like to ask, just how do those who mention Shepard's taking control and handing the base over to the Alliance suggest she did that in that moment that called for a decision?
You really think it's that easy to screw over a guy who had the resources to bring her back to life?? No.. seriously??

Does the Alliance have the resources to travel through the Omega 4 relay? How fast can they get to where Shepard is? How does Shepard inform them without TIM knowing?
How long can Shepard hold the fort to prevent TIM from taking over the place?

It seems to me that the only way to get the base into more trustworthy hands would be to bluff TIM and come back with the Alliance pronto to fight for it... again.

[Nightwriter]

rasblak wrote...

"EDI would have datamined it already"... easy and uber-cool, eh?
I used to wish my PC would do my homework for me too back in the day

But seriously, if EDI was powerful enough to do that, then EDI wouldn't need to do that because EDI would be
powerful enough to kick the reapers' as_ses already.

I'd like to ask, just how do those who mention Shepard's taking control and handing the base over to the Alliance suggest she did that in that moment that called for a decision?
You really think it's that easy to screw over a guy who had the resources to bring her back to life?? No.. seriously??

Does the Alliance have the resources to travel through the Omega 4 relay? How fast can they get to where Shepard is? How does Shepard inform them without TIM knowing?
How long can Shepard hold the fort to prevent TIM from taking over the place?

It seems to me that the only way to get the base into more trustworthy hands would be to bluff TIM and come back with the Alliance pronto to fight for it... again.

This confuses me. Are you for keeping the base, or against it? Are you saying it's unrealistic for people to say they would've kept the base if only they could've given it to the Alliance?

Or are you saying the more sensible thing to do is give TIM the base now, trick him, and then take it back for the Alliance later?

[DrunkenGoon]

I destroyed the base because quite frankly I don't trust TIM with anything.. In my eyes he is nothing more than a modern day David Duke like leader.. He tries VERY hard to show Shepard that Cerebus isn't that bad but if you play through the game you realize that there is much more to Cerberus then he is willing to let you know.. An obvious example of this is very early on when you can send that crazy Quarian to Cerberus to get info from him.. Later on you discover they traumatized him for life.. Just don't trust someone like TIM with that much much tech..

[Devidose]

rasblak wrote...

[
"EDI would have datamined it already"... easy and uber-cool, eh?
I used to wish my PC would do my homework for me too back in the day

But seriously, if EDI was powerful enough to do that, then EDI wouldn't need to do that because EDI would be
powerful enough to kick the reapers' as_ses already.

I'd like to ask, just how do those who mention Shepard's taking control and handing the base over to the Alliance suggest she did that in that moment that called for a decision?
You really think it's that easy to screw over a guy who had the resources to bring her back to life?? No.. seriously??

Does the Alliance have the resources to travel through the Omega 4 relay? How fast can they get to where Shepard is? How does Shepard inform them without TIM knowing?
How long can Shepard hold the fort to prevent TIM from taking over the place?

It seems to me that the only way to get the base into more trustworthy hands would be to bluff TIM and come back with the Alliance pronto to fight for it... again.

I don't think the Collector Base had the same programming you would find in Reapers. Harbinger was controlling the CG, whereas a Reaper is a full blown AI.

One of the issues that would crop up with Alliance/Council forces going to the base via Omega4, is that Omega, and the relay are in the Terminus systems, a place we were told in ME1 the Council wouldn't send a fleet, due to possibly starting a war, same deal with the Attican Traverse, hence why we went in the 1st game. Cerberus isn't really an official party, so can get away with a small fleet movement, but with larger forces, Batarians, and other groups, might take the chance to start a ruckus.

[aznsoisauce]

Nightwriter wrote...

rasblak wrote...

"EDI would have datamined it already"... easy and uber-cool, eh?
I used to wish my PC would do my homework for me too back in the day

But seriously, if EDI was powerful enough to do that, then EDI wouldn't need to do that because EDI would be
powerful enough to kick the reapers' as_ses already.

I'd like to ask, just how do those who mention Shepard's taking control and handing the base over to the Alliance suggest she did that in that moment that called for a decision?
You really think it's that easy to screw over a guy who had the resources to bring her back to life?? No.. seriously??

Does the Alliance have the resources to travel through the Omega 4 relay? How fast can they get to where Shepard is? How does Shepard inform them without TIM knowing?
How long can Shepard hold the fort to prevent TIM from taking over the place?

It seems to me that the only way to get the base into more trustworthy hands would be to bluff TIM and come back with the Alliance pronto to fight for it... again.

This confuses me. Are you for keeping the base, or against it? Are you saying it's unrealistic for people to say they would've kept the base if only they could've given it to the Alliance?

Or are you saying the more sensible thing to do is give TIM the base now, trick him, and then take it back for the Alliance later?

I think rasblak is saying that everyone that's assuming that Shepard without the collector base has all the information s/he will need to defeat the reapers is nonsensical.

I'm not saying the better decision is to keep the base. I'm just agreeing that people that are saying things like "EDI magically harvested all the info you'll need while you were on the suicide mission" are kind of silly. 

[PooPoomonster]

Zyrious wrote...



Well let's think about this for a second. One of the fundamental technologies of Reapers is indoctrination. It's implied that the conciousness of all those used in the construction of the reaper are transferred into that reaper (It would have been useless tech for the original reapers if it meant they were all going to die, after all). There's no idea how they are either united, or how a chain of command within the ship is set up (this is all likely in some kind of virtual reality aboard the ship, where all the conciousness live out their lives while the ships are in dark space), but indoctrination is likely used to make sure all reapers share the goal's necessary for their continued survival. There is no debate on that issue, but that doesnt necessarily mean there arent many individual beliefs between each "nation" ship.

Indoctrination could be a side effect of networked thought. If you notice people suffering from it don't actually seem to be mind controlled zombies. They come to a conclusion which they believe to be logical. Whatever field links all the conciousnesses of the entities making one reaper also automaticaly incorporate anyother thinking creature within the field. That might explain the "noise" in their brain. It also explaines why on the reaper derelict ship one of the videos had 2 people sharing the exact same memory.

Indoctrination could be a form of communication just as much if not more so than overt controll. That of course being different than being transformed into a groaning husk.

[BellaStrega]

codesmurf wrote...

Destroying the collector base makes no sense, it's not a paragon decision, it's a stupid decision. They were building a reaper at the base, so you're going to find some schematics telling you how it work, once you know how it works you can figure out the best way to kill it.

It makes all kinds of sense. You have two choices available to you:

* Destroy the Collector base
* Give the Collector base with its "distill people into Reapers" technology to a guy whose organization routinely engages in unethical experimentation up to and including wiping out entire colonies.

Sheppard is convinced that the reapers are still coming, so why destroy the only real information you have on your enemy? If he didn't want to work with Cerberus, why not make a pit stop at the citadel and get the council or the alliance to send a fleet to secure the base instead of Cerberus. Even if they don't believe you about the reapers, you have enough scans and other evidence to convince them that there is advanced technology that can be had.

I'm just venting because it seems that for ME2, you don't get to choose between being paragon and renegade, you get to choose between being an idiot or being a jerk.

I don't think destroying the base is idiocy. I think saving it, even to hand over to the Council (let alone TIM) is possibly the worst thing you could do.

[PooPoomonster]

mrsrachelm wrote...

If Shepard was with an organization he/she could trust then the decision to not destroy the base would be much mroe appealing. However, knowing Cerberus and how they have operated, manipulated and the opverall indication that they are out for galaxy domination...NOT desdtroying the base and leaving all that potential power in their hands is just asking for trouble. After the reapers were dealt with you just KNOW Cerberus would become the new "reaper" threat more or less and you'd have to start all the hell over again.

What makes you think they could be dealt with? What do the species in the council have that the protheans didn't? You know that they DONT know how to make a relay like the protheans did. Worrying about what ceberus might do later instead of what the Reapers will do and have done hundreds of times is insane. It  would be like worrying the police might get dirt on your rug on the way to stop someone in your house trying to murder you.

[Llandaryn]

Why would anyone destroy the collector base?

Because having something that insanely powerful lying around, ready to be used by one race against others, is daft? The Illusive man didn't want to just use it against the Reapers, he wanted to use it to secure humanity's dominance through force.

[Sleepicub09]

this again

[BellaStrega]

PooPoomonster wrote...

mrsrachelm wrote...

If Shepard was with an organization he/she could trust then the decision to not destroy the base would be much mroe appealing. However, knowing Cerberus and how they have operated, manipulated and the opverall indication that they are out for galaxy domination...NOT desdtroying the base and leaving all that potential power in their hands is just asking for trouble. After the reapers were dealt with you just KNOW Cerberus would become the new "reaper" threat more or less and you'd have to start all the hell over again.

What makes you think they could be dealt with? What do the species in the council have that the protheans didn't? You know that they DONT know how to make a relay like the protheans did. Worrying about what ceberus might do later instead of what the Reapers will do and have done hundreds of times is insane. It  would be like worrying the police might get dirt on your rug on the way to stop someone in your house trying to murder you.

It's not worrying about what Cerberus might do in the future, but what Cerberus will do in the present.

[GuardianAngel470]

The Angry One wrote...

Said it before and I'll say it again, if there was an option to give the base to someone else, I'd keep it.
As the only option is to hand it to the evil racist megalomaniac, I blow it up.

It looks better when you blow it up anyway, the Collector General's death doesn't sync at all with the "radiation pulse" sequence.

I agree with this.  If I could give it to Anderson or the council even, I would, in a heartbeat.  As it stands, the only option is to give it to TIM, and when you confront him about making his own reaper he doesn't even deny it.  

Consensus achieved: TIM is TROUBLE.

[TekFanX]

Well...why I didn't keep the collector-base.

I absolutely loved to blow it up:



1.: Indoctrination-Risk



2.:The base is biological and synthetic. Seeing how the Reapers used humans to build a bio-mechanic creature...somehow I get the feeling the Base was as much made from Protheans as the Collectors themself. In my case I never would like to use tech that's based on molten beings to fight an enemy.

[Turkeysock]

After doing some tough thinking, I also believe that it is much wiser to destroy the base. Not just to keep it out of TIM's hands. But because their technology far surpasses what any other race has in the galaxy at the moment.

Now, humor me for a bit, but can I ask, what happens when a lesser advanced technological group suddenly gets a few hundred years of tech? In the game we see this happen, and humanity is pushed forward into discovering the Charon Relay. But honestly, that isn't very realistic (yes, I know it's a game). But speaking from a historical point of view, when we look at places whom gain advanced tech by even a hundred years generally turn out bad.

We can see a more realistic version happen with the Krogan.

But we can also see this happen with Africa as well. Where the less technologically advanced Africans eventually depopulated great portions of Africa during the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries to trade for weapons and other items made by Europeans.

The Reaper tech could very well create the same situation even if the Council were to get ahold of it. I'm not trying to bad mouth or point fingers, but I think the Turians prove this. Sending highly trained special salvaging teams to recover weapons from Sovereign, I doubt every Council associated race is aware of the fact that the Thanix Cannon is reversed engineer of Reaper tech. But a little bit is easy to hide, but imagine a base now. Keeping a capture of a base... a Collector base that is, a secret, would be hard to keep a secret. Just with the personnel requirements to be able to check out the base completely...

It would cause a major up roar, and EVERY race would end up fighting over it. The Council races would probably split apart alone, as even if they "cooperate" together in the investigation, you can sure as well bet that everyone is going to keep certain discoveries for themselves/their race or to the highest bidder. Then we have the situation of it being located in the Terminus System, which means that EVERY race in the Terminus System will be sending massive fleets to the Omega 4 Relay. They'll eventually figure it out to NOT go through and just wait for the ships to pass through.

Basically, from what history has shown us, massive war would break out for people to struggle against one another to be the first to gain that tech. In the end, I think that by keeping the base, we may very well weaken the galaxy because they'd be spending resources and man power into trying to acquiring the tech.

Modifié par Turkeysock, 02 mars 2010 - 07:36 .

[CmdrFenix83]

aznsoisauce wrote...

I think rasblak is saying that everyone that's assuming that Shepard without the collector base has all the information s/he will need to defeat the reapers is nonsensical.

I'm not saying the better decision is to keep the base. I'm just agreeing that people that are saying things like "EDI magically harvested all the info you'll need while you were on the suicide mission" are kind of silly. 

Magically?  She's an AI.  As Legion states, they think at the speed of light.  In the time it takes us to ask one question, they(the 1183 Geth inside Legion) can review all of their time on board the Normandy.  It's even easier for her since she doesn't have to come to a concensus, she's only 1 entity and can make decisions quickly.  The mission inside the Collector base takes half an hour of real time if you push through the enemies quickly, in game terms, it probably takes much longer.  To think she didn't have enough time to scan and datamine their entire database several times over is silly. 

If there was any information about the Reapers themselves in there, she would have it, easily.  Studying the tech itself, is just following more along the Reaper path, something they *want* us to do.  Anything that breaks away from the technological evolution that the Reapers followed is a good thing.

Even if you think the tech is worth studying, giving the base to a man that has been known to commit atrocities against humanity himself, is just downright imbecilic.  Even if the base produces a controllable Reaper, and that one Reaper proves instrumental for taking down the Reaper fleet(somehow), you can be damned sure that the Illusive Man is going to turn around and use it to take over the galaxy.  Or possibly, the whole plan could backfire, and TIMmy's pet Reaper will act on its' own and start reaping the galaxy on its' own, or possibly even go switch on the Citadel Relay.

The Alliance/Citadel can only get to the base on board the Normandy, and even then, who knows if it is capable of indoctrinating?  We don't.  There's far too many risks involved with keeping the base to justify keeping it.  Playing with fire is a good way to get burned.

[CmdrFenix83]

PooPoomonster wrote...

Indoctrination could be a side effect of networked thought. If you notice people suffering from it don't actually seem to be mind controlled zombies. They come to a conclusion which they believe to be logical. Whatever field links all the conciousnesses of the entities making one reaper also automaticaly incorporate anyother thinking creature within the field. That might explain the "noise" in their brain. It also explaines why on the reaper derelict ship one of the videos had 2 people sharing the exact same memory.

Indoctrination could be a form of communication just as much if not more so than overt controll. That of course being different than being transformed into a groaning husk.

Very interesting thought. 

[ObserverStatus]

TekFanX wrote...

Well...why I didn't keep the collector-base.
I absolutely loved to blow it up:

1.: Indoctrination-Risk

2.:The base is biological and synthetic. Seeing how the Reapers used humans to build a bio-mechanic creature...somehow I get the feeling the Base was as much made from Protheans as the Collectors themself. In my case I never would like to use tech that's based on molten beings to fight an enemy.

Why so paranoid? I'm sure Dr. Solus can think of an indoctrination countermeasure.

[Possessedkitten]

I think its a choice similar to saving the council in the first game.

If the council die humanity is dominant pollitically.

If you keep the station then it secures humanitys military sumpremacy.

[rasblak]

Nightwriter wrote...

This confuses me. Are you for keeping the base, or against it? Are you saying it's unrealistic for people to say they would've kept the base if only they could've given it to the Alliance?

Or are you saying the more sensible thing to do is give TIM the base now, trick him, and then take it back for the Alliance later?

I kept the base. That's what I think I know Russia and The USA did to Germany back in the day.
To quote Iron Man: "That's how Dad did it, and it's worked pretty well so far."

Obviously, if Shepard doesn't blow up the place, TIM is first in line to be on-site, right?
There's nothing Shepard can do about that right now. What, they'll kill all Cerberus operatives TIM sends?

It seems that some people are actually wishing that BioWare developers would have included an option:
"Keep the base, hand it over to the Alliance" -- I mean, what is this, Christmas Day??

[aznsoisauce]

(Only quoting part of it since I'm sure it is the only part that is actually directed at me. The rest of what was written in the original post is a respectable opinion that I will not argue with.)

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

aznsoisauce wrote...

I think rasblak is saying that everyone that's assuming that Shepard without the collector base has all the information s/he will need to defeat the reapers is nonsensical.

I'm not saying the better decision is to keep the base. I'm just agreeing that people that are saying things like "EDI magically harvested all the info you'll need while you were on the suicide mission" are kind of silly. 

Magically?  She's an AI.  As Legion states, they think at the speed of light.  In the time it takes us to ask one question, they(the 1183 Geth inside Legion) can review all of their time on board the Normandy.  It's even easier for her since she doesn't have to come to a concensus, she's only 1 entity and can make decisions quickly.  The mission inside the Collector base takes half an hour of real time if you push through the enemies quickly, in game terms, it probably takes much longer.  To think she didn't have enough time to scan and datamine their entire database several times over is silly. 

I do not mean to offend, but:
Somehow, to me, this still translates to EDI is magic. But...you know. AIs are banned for a reason, right? So, I could find this to be acceptable.

However, referencing Legion doesn't exactly support your statement. It is because the Geth are a large network that they can process quickly. EDI says something opposite when she is asked how she manages alone, iirc. She comments on being capable but some minutes are difficult, or something to that effect. Throw in that she and Joker are operating the Normandy SR-2 by themselves and she's already got a lot on her plate.

But alas...she is not human so I will not dismiss your assumptions. (Plus...that whole coming to a consensus thing for the Geth practically discounts one of my points...probably...I don't even know/care anymore, lol. Moot post?)

[CmdrFenix83]

aznsoisauce wrote...

I do not mean to offend, but:
Somehow, to me, this still translates to EDI is magic. But...you know. AIs are banned for a reason, right? So, I could find this to be acceptable.

However, referencing Legion doesn't exactly support your statement. It is because the Geth are a large network that they can process quickly. EDI says something opposite when she is asked how she manages alone, iirc. She comments on being capable but some minutes are difficult, or something to that effect. Throw in that she and Joker are operating the Normandy SR-2 by themselves and she's already got a lot on her plate.

But alas...she is not human so I will not dismiss your assumptions. (Plus...that whole coming to a consensus thing for the Geth practically discounts one of my points...probably...I don't even know/care anymore, lol. Moot post?)

Shrug.  It's just the way I see it.  I'm too tired to really care anymore.  So let's just say EDI's a beast like that, and call it a night?  

[aznsoisauce]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

aznsoisauce wrote...

I do not mean to offend, but:
Somehow, to me, this still translates to EDI is magic. But...you know. AIs are banned for a reason, right? So, I could find this to be acceptable.

However, referencing Legion doesn't exactly support your statement. It is because the Geth are a large network that they can process quickly. EDI says something opposite when she is asked how she manages alone, iirc. She comments on being capable but some minutes are difficult, or something to that effect. Throw in that she and Joker are operating the Normandy SR-2 by themselves and she's already got a lot on her plate.

But alas...she is not human so I will not dismiss your assumptions. (Plus...that whole coming to a consensus thing for the Geth practically discounts one of my points...probably...I don't even know/care anymore, lol. Moot post?)

Shrug.  It's just the way I see it.  I'm too tired to really care anymore.  So let's just say EDI's a beast like that, and call it a night?  

Haha, right on. 

But yeah...I mentioned before that threads like these never seem to change anyone's mind but they sure as hell make for some damn good conversation.

[ExtremeOne]

In a war you need to do what ever it takes to defeat the enemy and keeping the base is a good idea