619 réponses à ce sujet

[aznsoisauce]

rab****annel wrote...
I always read arguments like, "but Cerberus is EEEEEEEVIL!". But, but the Reapers are eeeeevil too. So what happens you don't take the base and the Reapers slaughter us? Then you can all go, "well, at least TIM didn't get it. What a bastard he was".

I lol'd.

[rabbitchannel]

Luc0s wrote...

I can come up with thousand of reasons to DESTROY the collector base, and not a single good reason to KEEP it.

1) I don't trust TIM, I'm not gonna give him the collector base, that will give him way to much power.

2) The collector base contains reaper-tech, experimenting with it is ASKING for trouble.

3) Look at what happened with the Cerberus workers at the disabled reaper (reaper IFF mission). If that thing kan indoctrinate people, what makes you think the collector-base can't?

4) It's probably useless anyway. Like The Angry One said, I bet Harbinger cleared the HDD from the collector base before he got rid of the collector general, at least I hope for him he's that smart.

5) If the council discovers you gave the collector-base to TIM they'll most likely banish you from council space or something, at least I don't think they'll be very happy. I hear you saying, "f*ck the council". Yes, indeed, they're a-holes, but important a-holes.

1. Oh, you don't think the massive fleet of galaxy-raping sentient machines is worse than TIM?

2. Mass Relays are Reaper Tech (RT). The Citadel is RT. Our tech is practically built on experimenting with RT. You realize your argument is, "but something bad might happen!", yes? 

3. What makes you think the Collector base can? Were they expecting non-Collectors and non-Reapers to take up residence in the base? They didn't even have external sensors. And since we've already seen Indoctrination Devices, we know what we're looking for. 

4. Oh, sure. Clearing the HDD instantly wipes the entire base clean of useful tech. He probably popped into the Human Reaper and wiped it too. Human Reaper Larva?! So useless!

5. Once the threat of the Reapers is made clear the council won't be so important. You've already got the unofficial support of many races. Irrefutable proof of an invasion would start a massive military movement whether the council likes it or not.

Sorry, my phrasing might make me seem like an ass. I'll calm down though. 

Modifié par rabbitchannel, 02 mars 2010 - 05:37 .

[scxenophobe]

Because I love explosions.

[Toxik King]

Talk to Legion. And Mordin. They have some good points about technology and ****.

Also, there's the whole "Reaper with a Cerberus logo blows up aliens. The Illusive Man is shocked. Exclusive interview:

IT WUZ A ROGE SELL!"

[Vaenier]

######## Vaenier's Proposal for the Study and Occupation of Collector Facility ########

Clear the Collectors from the base with a controlled radiation blast in the main reactor.
Give TIM the ultimatum of cleaning up his act and stop sacrificing other races for the sake of humanity, or be taken down and Cerberus repurposed for the betterment of all life, not just humans. Use Cerberus frigates to secure the Omega 4 Relay to make sure no additional Collector frigates come.

Once repairs to Normandy SR2 are complete, bring several fire teams and research teams to the facility. Their Prime objective is to ensure the deactivation of the Reaper fetus at any cost. Secondary objective is to ascertain the threat of indoctrination in the facility and deactivate it.

If indoctrination is in effect, all personal are limited to one week max exposure before required evacuation. If it is unable to be deactivated, all study will be directed towards developing shielding or jamming techniques to counteract the effects. All personal must undergo mandatory daily off base psych evaluations.

Goals of Research:
• Prevent indoctrination.
• Develop shielding that is stronger against their weapons. Possibly magnetic based.
• Develop weapons that are stronger against their shields. Possibly plasma based.
• Develop genetic enhancements for marines based off of Collectors.
• Develop cybernetic enhancements for marines based off of Collectors.
• Learn weaknesses in Reaper design.
• Study local shipwrecks for alternate paths of technological advancement.

Incase of containment breach, base is to be locked down and fire teams flown in to contain the situation. If fire teams are unable to retake the base, a radiation burst should be used to eliminate all life. As a final safety precaution for an unpredictable and uncontrollable safety breach, a NOVA nuclear warhead is to be detonated, atomizing the base, all surrounding space, and possibly the relay. The Omega 4 relay is to be pushed into the sun, and local space monitored for possible breaches.

Only volunteers are to be used for research. All decisions regarding Collector base are to go directly through Shepard. All decisions are final. Any insubordination is to be dealt with swiftly. Personal that disobey an order should to be contained in quarantine until certain they are not infected by Reaper technology. They are then to be released onto Omega with all personal property forfeit.

[MantisN1nja]

scxenophobe wrote...

Because I love explosions.

This, and to ****** off TIM

[rabbitchannel]

Luc0s wrote...

rab****annel wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

I can come up with thousand of reasons to DESTROY the collector base, and not a single good reason to KEEP it.

1) I don't trust TIM, I'm not gonna give him the collector base, that will give him way to much power.

2) The collector base contains reaper-tech, experimenting with it is ASKING for trouble.

3) Look at what happened with the Cerberus workers at the disabled reaper (reaper IFF mission). If that thing kan indoctrinate people, what makes you think the collector-base can't?

4) It's probably useless anyway. Like The Angry One said, I bet Harbinger cleared the HDD from the collector base before he got rid of the collector general, at least I hope for him he's that smart.

5) If the council discovers you gave the collector-base to TIM they'll most likely banish you from council space or something, at least I don't think they'll be very happy. I hear you saying, "f*ck the council". Yes, indeed, they're a-holes, but important a-holes.

1. Oh, you don't think the massive fleet of galaxy-raping sentient machines is worse than TIM?

2. Mass Relays are Reaper Tech (RT). The Citadel is RT. Our tech is practically built on experimenting with RT. You realize your argument is, "but something bad might happen!", yes? 

3. What makes you think the Collector base can? Were they expecting non-Collectors and non-Reapers to take up residence in the base? They didn't even have external sensors. And since we've already seen Indoctrination Devices, we know what we're looking for. 

4. Oh, sure. Clearing the HDD instantly wipes the entire base clean of useful tech. He probably popped into the Human Reaper and wiped it too. Human Reaper Larva?! So useless!

5. Once the threat of the Reapers is made clear the council won't be so important. You've already got the unofficial support of many races. Irrefutable proof of an invasion would start a massive military movement whether the council likes it or not.

Sorry, my phrasing might make me seem like an ass. I'll calm down though. 

You're not harsh at all. But you quoted an outdated post, I edited it.

I changed point 5, but I'll say it again.

Why save the collector-base if Shepard already has reaper schematics at the end of ME2 anyway? I blew up the base and I still saw Joker handing over a data-pad with reaper schematics on it. Just pay attention to the end-sequence right before the final shot where you see the entire reaper fleet.

So yeah, give me one good reason why we would need the base or human-reaper-larva (that most likely will indoctrinate people in his "sleep" and might activate again), we have the schematics on a data-pad, isn't that enough? Atleast the data-pad is safe, you don't know how safe the collector base is, especially not in TIM's hands!

Actually, I doubt they're the schematics. It seems too simple to me. "Hey, Commander! Look what I found!". Anyway, assuming they ARE schematics, it's still different from having one in working condition. If you wanted to perform tests on it you'd have to build it first. Or parts of it, at least. Plus, the Human Reaper is different. If we could get a hold of that we'd be able to analyze Reapers in their "infancy" plus the ever persistent, "why humans?". If we had BOTH the schematics and the Human Reaper we would even be able to analyze the differences between Reapers.

Also, you haven't told me why you think TIM > Massive fleet of galaxy-raping, Human blending, Prothean mutating, sentient machines. *cough*

[The Governator]

Collider wrote...

Being around Reaper technology is like asking to be indoctrinated. The Collector base and its reaper was also constructed with thousands of people's lives.

There are so many painful parallels that answer the OPs question it is surprising that he could not make the connections.  The short answer is that the tech is tainted and it is essentially taking the short easy route to victory that was built upon the suffering and demise of countless lives.  To partake of such a victory stains your essence with sin, in my opinion. 

[The Governator]

I mean think about it...the Galaxy has the Mass Relays to reverse engineer and stuff like that. What does this tainted tech have that the relays did not?  Intel is one thing, but using advances built upon the suffering of others, no matter the result, is just wrong.

Modifié par The Governator, 02 mars 2010 - 06:08 .

[Vaenier]

The Governator wrote...
The short answer is that the tech is tainted and it is essentially taking the short easy route to victory that was built upon the suffering and demise of countless lives.  To partake of such a victory stains your essence with sin, in my opinion.

Making those deaths meaningless is better than making their sacrifice save others? Interesting...

[Rockmonkey55]

Even after blowing the base , During the final cutsence it shows joker handing reaper info to shepard that they got from the ship. I dont think blowing it up . Is a bad idea, Shepard and edi got the goods .

[Vaenier]

Rockmonkey55 wrote...

Even after blowing the base , During the final cutsence it shows joker handing reaper info to shepard that they got from the ship. I dont think blowing it up . Is a bad idea, Shepard and edi got the goods .

That is meta-gaming. And for all you know, it was just a pretty picture. You have no idea how much usable information is aquired in that datapad.

[Otto Johanan]

I destroyed the base as Tim was reaally out of his character at the end when he spoke through Omni-Tool. He just felt so unreliable at that time even though I had a deep trust in his goals during the rest of the game. I However plan to give him the base on my final and thorough game.



Many reasons agreeing with the destruction of the base seem to lay on presumptions and prediction. It is at the moment unknown how crucial the technology in the base is. I would assume it would help us to create weapons and arm our fleets with technology that would at least give us a decent chance on reapers. This of course if Council races are willing to upgrade their fleets to face the Reaper threat.



I doubt that Tim would do anything ´that´ immoral with the tech there. Humankind wouldnt benefit if it would gain supremacy on pure violence. Common man would face racism and discrimination and I bet it would be lonely for the humans to be at the ultimate top. Besides Tim needs other races to fight dem reapers.

[smudboy]

Luc0s wrote...

I can come up with thousand of reasons to DESTROY the collector base, and not a single good reason to KEEP it.

1) I don't trust TIM, I'm not gonna give him the collector base, that will give him way to much power.

2) The collector base contains reaper-tech, experimenting with it is ASKING for trouble.

3) Look at what happened with the Cerberus workers at the disabled reaper (reaper IFF mission). If that thing kan indoctrinate people, what makes you think the collector-base can't?

4) It's probably useless anyway. Like The Angry One said, I bet Harbinger cleared the HDD from the collector base before he got rid of the collector general, at least I hope for him he's that smart.

5) The best and most importand reason at all: The OP said something about schematics for the reapers, which would be his reason to keep the collector's base. But that's an invalid reason.
If you payed ANY attention to the end-sequence at all, you'll see that Shepard has the schematics anyway, regardless of what you did to the collector base. Look closely at what Joker is handing over to Shepard at the end.

1) How do you feel about galactic genocide?
2) And not trying to experiment with it increases your chances for galactic genocide.
3) Why don't you find out?  What's stopping anyone from blowing it up later?
4) "probably"? Supposition.
5) He has a picture of a Reaper, it seems.  Would you rather have a picture, or the real thing?

Nevermind that a) we need proof to show the Council/universe Reapers are real, to understand how people died and take an account for the families of those lost and give them a sense of closure, c) POTENTIAL technology does not equal INSTANT power, d) any smidgering of information would be really, really helpful right now on wtf is up with the Collectors, Reapers, and what their plans were.  Go over the details later.  One does not make such a decision on the battlefield.

If anything screws up, blowing it up later is still an option.

[Vaenier]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

I am not certain if anything useful can be discovered by researching to collector base. I think the most important thing to research would be new ways to travel between the stars rapidly. It would allow independence for space travelling from the Citadel which is actually like a giant carnivous plant and to the mass relays. If something like that would be discovered then it would allow the council races to scuttle the Citadel for good without ending travelling between the stars.

That is a major area I would research also, but the Collector base doesnt help in that regard.
First build our own relays, to move away from the reaper controlled versions. Then we can begin trying hyperdrive and wormhole technologies.

Another issue is to develop better weapons and shields in order to allow spaceships to have better chances fighting with the Reapers. However, the Collectors didn´t have too good ships when their cruiser encountered SR-2 Normandy near the Collector Base. I don´t think shipwrecks in there would be interesting research objects either. Collectors died pretty easily when Shepard fought against them. I don´t think they can provide anything interesting especially because the Reapers wanted to disguise all connections between them and the Reapers in order to avoid suspicions. That is probably why the Alliance didn´t find anything useful from the Horizon.

Well, we will never know unless we study it. And Shep is the Main character, ofcourse they lose against him.
If we get nothing from it, atleast we tried. Then we can just blow it up.

[CmdrFenix83]

rasblak wrote...

So the "database" of the Reapers is all that's needed? Somehow that's different and separate from "the tech itself", right?
Why bother going after the IFF module if "the tech itself" is such a bad thing to have around?

If EDI can't hack into the Omega 4 relay, what makes you think that she can tell head from tail of the reapers' so very valuable "database" thing that you came up with?

She infiltrated their computer system, that's her *entire* purpose.  And in case you don't remember, that IFF *was* a bad thing to have around.  It shut down all of the Normandy's systems and called the Collectors to come abduct your entire crew.  The only reason your mission wasn't a complete failure, was EDI... in more than one instance even.

So, "Studying the tech itself" is a bad thing, right? Because that's what The Reapers "want us to do"?

Can we hire you to convince, e.g, The USA that revealing the tech they use in their latest cutting-edge weapons is what they should want to do?
And praise the Lord Hallelujah that the rest of the world is out there busy studying that?

Did you not even pay attention to anything Sovereign and Legion stated?  "Your civilization is based upon the technology of the Mass Relays, our technology.  By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."  They *want* us using their tech.  Developing our own and finding something that deviates from that path means they most likely won't have a defense set up to handle it.

Well, you could be right on that. There's hope for you after all.

I'm glad that even in the point you agree, you can still try to be condescending. 

Edit:  Posting in multiple sections of the forums at once is confusing.  Forgot this was in the spoiler section, edited my post to reflect that.  <_<

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 02 mars 2010 - 06:50 .

[The Angry One]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Did you not even pay attention to anything Sovereign and Legion stated?  "Your civilization is based upon the technology of the Mass Relays, our technology.  By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."  They *want* us using their tech.  Developing our own and finding something that deviates from that path means they most likely won't have a defense set up to handle it

That depends, they don't for example want us using thanix cannons now, do they.

[rasblak]

The Governator wrote...

I mean think about it...the Galaxy has the Mass Relays to reverse engineer and stuff like that. What does this tainted tech have that the relays did not?  Intel is one thing, but using advances built upon the suffering of others, no matter the result, is just wrong.

Who has managed to reverse-engineer the Mass Relays?

> "What does this tainted tech have that the relays did not?"

Very good question. You see, if Shephard blows it up, no one gets to find out. It's the safest thing to do, yes; but it's not the bravest.
If I keep the base it's because I'm prepared to come back and fight Cerberus if it actually turns out that they are using it for purposes that I deem wrong. The Alliance and The Council didn't do jack **** in this thing.

For those who are arguing that "Shephard gets schematics anyway".. Clearly, if you blow up the base, it's whatever 'little' you did have time to salvage; if you didn't, there's more to be uncovered as Cerberus sends in manpower to presumably dismantle the place and transfer the tech to their own labs.

[Vaenier]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Did you not even pay attention to anything Sovereign and Legion stated?  "Your civilization is based upon the technology of the Mass Relays, our technology.  By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."  They *want* us using their tech.  Developing our own and finding something that deviates from that path means they most likely won't have a defense set up to handle it.

What better way to to test if they dont have defences set up against it than to directly test against reaper tech. That is the goal of my research plans, create direct counters to reaper tech. would be the same as normal weapons to the rest of the galaxy, but it will be instant death to any reapers that show up.

Modifié par Vaenier, 02 mars 2010 - 06:42 .

[CmdrFenix83]

kRaYzi3 wrote...

Sometimes I wonder... with all this talk about indoctrination, why not have the Citadel equipped with an indoctrinator in the first place? That would've made life a lot easier for the Reapers in the first game. Stupid Reapers...

Arrogance?  They went for millions and millions(possibly billions) of years slaughtering everyone without a serious problem.  Sovereign would just send a signal to the Citadel from his hiding place in the galaxy and the Keepers would activate the Citadel Relay.  The only reason that failed this time was because the Protheans had managed to lock down the Citadel's systems. 

Sovereign needed to create a distraction and get an indoctrinated agent inside to undo that lock.  Otherwise he'd never get the relay open. 

Or, if you follow the theory someone presented in this thread, indoctrination is something caused by the consciouness of all of those individuals inside the Reaper, and proximity to that seeps into your mind and slowly shares memories and everything along as you're slowly brought into the collective there, losign your individuality.  Interesting theory.

[CmdrFenix83]

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Did you not even pay attention to anything Sovereign and Legion stated?  "Your civilization is based upon the technology of the Mass Relays, our technology.  By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."  They *want* us using their tech.  Developing our own and finding something that deviates from that path means they most likely won't have a defense set up to handle it.

What better way to to test if they dont have defences set up against it than to directly test against reaper tech. That is the goal of my research plans, create direct counters to reaper tech. would be the same as normal weapons to the rest of the galaxy, but it will be instant death to any reapers that show up.

Except you don't have an actual Reaper in there.  You have a facility made from local materials simply to breed Reapers.  Now, if you're advocating making your own Reaper to test weapons on, you're advocating liquifing hundreds of thousands to millions of people to create that.  In which case, that definitely fits the Renegade's style of 'at any cost'.

[CmdrFenix83]

The Angry One wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Did you not even pay attention to anything Sovereign and Legion stated?  "Your civilization is based upon the technology of the Mass Relays, our technology.  By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."  They *want* us using their tech.  Developing our own and finding something that deviates from that path means they most likely won't have a defense set up to handle it

That depends, they don't for example want us using thanix cannons now, do they.

The Collector Ship is not a Reaper.   Even without those cannons, the Normandy can still take it out single-handedly.  It took an entire fleet barraging the thing to take out Sovereign, and we're not even sure if that made a dent, as Sovereign didn't go down until Cyborg-Zombie-Saren was killed.  For some reason, killing Saren there took down Sovereign's shields.  There's no telling that the Arcturus Fleet would have been able to win that battle at all if Sovereign hadn't tried to reanimate Saren.