211 réponses à ce sujet

[Geth Knight]

It can be argued that the Reapers have the right to extinguish us. Just as it is a fact that we have the right to defend ourselves. And I think 2 wins and an unimaginably large number of loses is a record for non Reaper life

[Flamewielder]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Maybe it is beyond our comprehension. I am thinking that they actually deemed humans worthy of reaper-hood and thus the human reaper.

Maybe all those liquefied humans that go into making a reaper still have a consciousness, some kind of collective consciousness of the entire race. Imagine having your consciousness be there but part of a larger whole at the same time, that is pretty freaky to think about. It would be a whole different level of existence than what we know.

THAT's thinking outside the box! I like it...

The Reapers certainly seem to feel so, judging from Sovereign's comments. But again, notice there is no moral high ground on either side, which was Qario's point.

[RighteousRage]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Yeah if the goo was still sentient, then Shepard just killed hundreds of thousands of humans.

The goo is not humans, haha. What is more likely is that the humans were broken down and used for raw materials (as well as other resources) for creating the Reapers, and the bio-electrical states of their brains were saved and interpreted into an artificial intelligence, which the Reapers posit is no different from the same living beings.

If you chop up a frog and put all of its constituent parts back together, do you have a frog?

Reapers are not people, they are living corpses and relics of ancient technologies and races that sought to escape death without understanding it.

[Geth Knight]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Yeah if the goo was still sentient, then Shepard just killed hundreds of thousands of humans.

If they were still sentient then it would be considered a mercy killing. I'm sure it would take centuries for the individual minds to get acclimated into one singular hive mind.

[Vaenier]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Well each Reaper is a nation unto itself. By that logic it means we killed hundreds of thousands of human spirits including our own crew if we wait too long.

There is a thought. What if all the colonist's minds were perfetly intact inside the Reaper fetus. They didnt die, but had become a higher being. They were just afraid, confused to whats happening. Then some guy comes in and starts shooting at them, they respond on instinct and try to stop him.

[The Governator]

Flamewielder wrote...

The Governator wrote...

The easy answer is, 'no u'

The more complicated response:  You advocate standing by and allowing the destruction of other races because that is morally superior to unintentionally allowing others to come about?  That is beyond irrational.  That's like arguing for mandatory euthenasia after an arbitrary age (perhaps 60) so that other people won't take up space that the new generation is vying to have.  That is so calculating and cold it is monstrous; id est, it is evil.  No one is actively seeking to prevent other species from inception.  Your thoughts on the matter are staggeringly short sighted. 

Actually Qario raises an VERY interesting point which show he/she can think outside the box:

Humans raise and harvest all sorts of animals for food or clothing. I'm not posing a moral judgement on wether this is good or evil, it's just a statement of a fact. Humans are the only animal species acknowledged to be sentient on this planet. You may argue some mammals display a fair degree of intelligence, like some marine mammals or primates, but none of them have developped a civilization similar to humans.

Do whales consider us "evil" because we hunted some of them almost to the point of extinction? To presume they do would presume them to be sentient according to our standards, in all logic...

Do Reapers consider us sentient according to their standards? Listening to Sovereign, I'd say they don't (or at least didn't until Sovereign was destroyed. To call the Reapers "evil" is nothing short of calling the human race "evil", as each race behaves the same way according to its own standards.

Does that mean we should go quietly to the slaughter? Of course not. But the Reapers are not "evil", they're the competition. They need to consume us to breed and survive as a species, just as much as we need meat or vegetables to survive ourselves. At least, I do not consider myself to be "evil" when I consume a defenseless carrot... even knowing this carrot is composed of millions of living, breathing cells.

Fight the Reapers, fight the Collectors, save the Galaxy from the next Reaper Harvest, but don't refer to the Reapers as "evil"... THAT would be staggeringly narrow minded. It's a fight for survival, plain and simple. No moral high ground to be had on either side.

Liquifying humans does not qualify as 'evil'?  You argue ethnocentrism on my part yet fail to relate how we, as human beings, try to minimize the suffering of the animals we harvest.  Now, I agree that our use of animals and plants is not 'evil' by any stretch.  Hell, I love meat and leather products, but I cannot suffer the baby seal clubbings even though I do not consider them sapient creatures.  I am not, by exclusion, suggesting that you or anyone else here could suffer them, but the point is that the Reapers are not only not concerned with our existance, they are not even concerned with eliminating our suffering in death.  They are, quite obviously, evil. 

[Kaorunandrak]

Reapers want to eat us. Humans natural instinct is to kill the **** out of what wants to eat us till its dead.



Reapers want to kill us. Humans natual instinct is to kill the **** out of what wants to kill us first till its dead. usually with large explody thanks that smell like some one ripped ass after they go *BOOOOOOM*



Humans care about one thing survival. We dont care if Mother Nature or God says we have to die cause its part of some great evolutionary plan. 99.9% of all human life would give them both a simultantious raspberry to the face and then rain nuclear, biochemical, electromagnetic, and any other type of death including harsh language and sharp pointy objects down upon them.



Its all about survival of the fittest baby and guess what, we're the only race filled with enough bat **** crazy Samuel L. Jackson MoFos that would weld a giant alloy shlong the size of the empire state building to the front of a fast flying warship filled with enough nuclear ordinance to launch the universe into another pocket dimension and fly that bad boy right up the ass of the collective reaper fleet.BOOOM baby! now thats a money shot right there muhwhahahahah.



oh yeah and if pyjaaks are an example of the races we're keeping from evolving due to our own growth then some one hand me Revanant LMG please cause its crack headed space monkey hunting season.

[Beerfish]

If humanity takes down the reapers it will be because of evolution, the reapers will not have adapted to changing times and perhaps their time is done.

[RighteousRage]

Beerfish wrote...

If humanity takes down the reapers it will be because of evolution, the reapers will not have adapted to changing times and perhaps their time is done.

Exactly. It has been shown that Reapers are mortal, just like anything else in the galaxy. The Reapers' motives and humans' motives are conflicting, and both are willing to fight to the death. The winner shall be selected according to which species is more fit, and the war will likely be entreated with the genocide of one race or the other. Humans are not being unreasonable. It is the Reapers that choose to take aggressive action, and this, combined with their inferiority, will be the downfall of their species.

[MutantSpleen]

The Governator wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...

The Governator wrote...

The easy answer is, 'no u'

The more complicated response:  You advocate standing by and allowing the destruction of other races because that is morally superior to unintentionally allowing others to come about?  That is beyond irrational.  That's like arguing for mandatory euthenasia after an arbitrary age (perhaps 60) so that other people won't take up space that the new generation is vying to have.  That is so calculating and cold it is monstrous; id est, it is evil.  No one is actively seeking to prevent other species from inception.  Your thoughts on the matter are staggeringly short sighted. 

Actually Qario raises an VERY interesting point which show he/she can think outside the box:

Humans raise and harvest all sorts of animals for food or clothing. I'm not posing a moral judgement on wether this is good or evil, it's just a statement of a fact. Humans are the only animal species acknowledged to be sentient on this planet. You may argue some mammals display a fair degree of intelligence, like some marine mammals or primates, but none of them have developped a civilization similar to humans.

Do whales consider us "evil" because we hunted some of them almost to the point of extinction? To presume they do would presume them to be sentient according to our standards, in all logic...

Do Reapers consider us sentient according to their standards? Listening to Sovereign, I'd say they don't (or at least didn't until Sovereign was destroyed. To call the Reapers "evil" is nothing short of calling the human race "evil", as each race behaves the same way according to its own standards.

Does that mean we should go quietly to the slaughter? Of course not. But the Reapers are not "evil", they're the competition. They need to consume us to breed and survive as a species, just as much as we need meat or vegetables to survive ourselves. At least, I do not consider myself to be "evil" when I consume a defenseless carrot... even knowing this carrot is composed of millions of living, breathing cells.

Fight the Reapers, fight the Collectors, save the Galaxy from the next Reaper Harvest, but don't refer to the Reapers as "evil"... THAT would be staggeringly narrow minded. It's a fight for survival, plain and simple. No moral high ground to be had on either side.

Liquifying humans does not qualify as 'evil'?  You argue ethnocentrism on my part yet fail to relate how we, as human beings, try to minimize the suffering of the animals we harvest.  Now, I agree that our use of animals and plants is not 'evil' by any stretch.  Hell, I love meat and leather products, but I cannot suffer the baby seal clubbings even though I do not consider them sapient creatures.  I am not, by exclusion, suggesting that you or anyone else here could suffer them, but the point is that the Reapers are not only not concerned with our existance, they are not even concerned with eliminating our suffering in death.  They are, quite obviously, evil. 

That assumes we understand what the liquefying was doing, and that it was cruel. Despite how horrific it looked to an observer, perhaps it was just taking us to another level of existence.

[RighteousRage]

An analogy. Imagine humans invent a crop of wheat that is genetically resistant to almost all possible pathogens. Considering the wheat lacks a nervous system, humans are probably beyond the comprehension of the wheat. However, if the wheat dominates the ecosystem and gets to the point where it pushes humans to extinction (as humans cannot survive on wheat alone), the fact that the wheat cannot comprehend humans doesn't matter at all. In the end, the humans would have died anyway, and it would have been due to their own error. Is it wrong for the wheat to want to live? Is it wrong for the Geth to want to live, rather than being undone at their creators' whims? Is it wrong for humans to rebel against the tyrrany of the Reapers?



The Reapers would be making this same sort of error. It matters not if humans cannot comprehend them. The humans want to live, and if living means destroying all Reapers, and they are fit enough to do so, then all Reapers will be destroyed.

[Flamewielder]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Carrots do not talk. Or think. The reapers know we are capable of language, philosophy, art, culture, building, We have yet to see signs of philosophy in the animals we slaughter.

But we don't give them a chance to evolve into something more sophisticated as we are controlling their breeding and not allowing natural selection to take place.

Ants in your garden have sophisticated means of communication through pheromones. Granted, I don't see them developing philosophy anytime soon. But being social animals, you might argue they are more advanced than say, a mosquito...

Does the knowledge of this remarquable evolutionary advance stop you from dousing insecticide on their nest when they start threatening your veggie patch? I think not.

Philosophy, litterature, art, etc... are all remarquable evolutionary advances. They are precious to us, humans. They have no meaning for your dog or cat. They are seen by the Reaper as quaint as the ants' pheromone communication system. Primitive. Again, no moral high ground to be had following either side's values.

We have, through selective breeding, created cows that produce more milk or meat, that are less agile or fast than their predecessors. Without human protection, they are easier prey than other wild herbivores. It is a classic example of directed evolution. Is it "evil"? I don't think so. Is it desirable from our perspective? Perhaps. Is it desirable from the cow's perspective? Probably not.

"Humans, aliens, we're all animals in the end..." A rather egalitarian statement, wouldn't you agree?

[The Governator]

MutantSpleen wrote...

That assumes we understand what the liquefying was doing, and that it was cruel. Despite how horrific it looked to an observer, perhaps it was just taking us to another level of existence.

...kaaaaaay.

[RighteousRage]

The Thorian's not an animal



huhu

[Flamewielder]

RighteousRage wrote...

An analogy. Imagine humans invent a crop of wheat that is genetically resistant to almost all possible pathogens. Considering the wheat lacks a nervous system, humans are probably beyond the comprehension of the wheat. However, if the wheat dominates the ecosystem and gets to the point where it pushes humans to extinction (as humans cannot survive on wheat alone), the fact that the wheat cannot comprehend humans doesn't matter at all. In the end, the humans would have died anyway, and it would have been due to their own error. Is it wrong for the wheat to want to live? Is it wrong for the Geth to want to live, rather than being undone at their creators' whims? Is it wrong for humans to rebel against the tyrrany of the Reapers?

The Reapers would be making this same sort of error. It matters not if humans cannot comprehend them. The humans want to live, and if living means destroying all Reapers, and they are fit enough to do so, then all Reapers will be destroyed.

Precisely!

[Kaorunandrak]

Even IF your still "alive" after being blended into pulp they still MIND RAPE you. They force their views, their wills, themselves upon the life forms they use to make new reapers/servants. I doubt any of those humans want to be used as a weapon to wipe out their true species down to the last man, woman, and child.



We may be capable of truely HORRIFIC acts but I don't rember brain washing baby seals into clubbing them selves as one of our "evils"

[Qario]

MutantSpleen wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...

The Governator wrote...

The easy answer is, 'no u'

The more complicated response:  You advocate standing by and allowing the destruction of other races because that is morally superior to unintentionally allowing others to come about?  That is beyond irrational.  That's like arguing for mandatory euthenasia after an arbitrary age (perhaps 60) so that other people won't take up space that the new generation is vying to have.  That is so calculating and cold it is monstrous; id est, it is evil.  No one is actively seeking to prevent other species from inception.  Your thoughts on the matter are staggeringly short sighted. 

Actually Qario raises an VERY interesting point which show he/she can think outside the box:

Humans raise and harvest all sorts of animals for food or clothing. I'm not posing a moral judgement on wether this is good or evil, it's just a statement of a fact. Humans are the only animal species acknowledged to be sentient on this planet. You may argue some mammals display a fair degree of intelligence, like some marine mammals or primates, but none of them have developped a civilization similar to humans.

Do whales consider us "evil" because we hunted some of them almost to the point of extinction? To presume they do would presume them to be sentient according to our standards, in all logic...

Do Reapers consider us sentient according to their standards? Listening to Sovereign, I'd say they don't (or at least didn't until Sovereign was destroyed. To call the Reapers "evil" is nothing short of calling the human race "evil", as each race behaves the same way according to its own standards.

Does that mean we should go quietly to the slaughter? Of course not. But the Reapers are not "evil", they're the competition. They need to consume us to breed and survive as a species, just as much as we need meat or vegetables to survive ourselves. At least, I do not consider myself to be "evil" when I consume a defenseless carrot... even knowing this carrot is composed of millions of living, breathing cells.

Fight the Reapers, fight the Collectors, save the Galaxy from the next Reaper Harvest, but don't refer to the Reapers as "evil"... THAT would be staggeringly narrow minded. It's a fight for survival, plain and simple. No moral high ground to be had on either side.

Liquifying humans does not qualify as 'evil'?  You argue ethnocentrism on my part yet fail to relate how we, as human beings, try to minimize the suffering of the animals we harvest.  Now, I agree that our use of animals and plants is not 'evil' by any stretch.  Hell, I love meat and leather products, but I cannot suffer the baby seal clubbings even though I do not consider them sapient creatures.  I am not, by exclusion, suggesting that you or anyone else here could suffer them, but the point is that the Reapers are not only not concerned with our existance, they are not even concerned with eliminating our suffering in death.  They are, quite obviously, evil. 

That assumes we understand what the liquefying was doing, and that it was cruel. Despite how horrific it looked to an observer, perhaps it was just taking us to another level of existence.

What The Govenator wrote, we still don't know exactly what the effects the liquifying had, only that is how the reaper is constucted. See it from the reapers point of view, as a race just like us, wanting to ensure their survival.
But as I said earlier, the reapers are obviously not stupid, they need organic life for something, they need to have the cycle of extinsion, otherwise why wouldn't the reapers just be friends with everything in the galaxy and act as peacekeepers?

[Biotic_Warlock]

Well, the reapers have to do something when they're bored...

[RighteousRage]

Also liquefying and integrating humans is basically analogous to the enzymatic action of digestion of meat proteins and then using the base materials to synthesize soft tissues in the body. It's just predation, and it's not really any different for Reapers. Unless they possess some sort of super duper handwavey magic, all of their "victims" still die. Personally I wouldn't take that risk.

Modifié par RighteousRage, 02 mars 2010 - 06:14 .

[RighteousRage]

Damn you, Reapers

[The Angry One]

MutantSpleen wrote...

That assumes we understand what the liquefying was doing, and that it was cruel. Despite how horrific it looked to an observer, perhaps it was just taking us to another level of existence.

There is no definition of being melted into goop that means "transcendence".
And given that the human-Reaper is immediately hostile, there's not much chance that the minds of millions of innocent non-combatant colonists are anywhere in there.
Harbinger is using hyperbole. It's another level of existance TO HIM because HE doesn't view humans or anyone else as worthy life at all.

[MutantSpleen]

Well Legion mentions that Nazara had many minds that act as one.

[The Angry One]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Well Legion mentions that Nazara had many minds that act as one.

Minds which are programs.
Reaper programs appear to be advanced AI, as opposed to the VI level individual programs of the Geth.
That doesn't mean the humans turned into goop contribute anything to this, since our minds aren't programs. I imagine the Collectors had Reaper programs uploaded to the human-Reaper as it grew.

[Vaenier]

Reapers have as much right to kill us as we do to defend ourselves. Neither is superior to the other, they are just different.

Reapers eat us. We eat cows. Are we evil for eating a lesser life form? Would the cow be evil for defending itself? Its just the cycle of life. Get used to it.

[Geth Knight]

God, Bioware are gods when it comes to making an enemy that can be thought of in this way.



But yea, I'd rather die during the fight for evolution then be turned into a soup to make a terminator.