211 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

The Angry One wrote...

And given that the human-Reaper is immediately hostile, there's not much chance that the minds of millions of innocent non-combatant colonists are anywhere in there.

They were confused, scared. They acted on instinct. What woud you do if you suddenly woke up to some guy shooting at you. You would defend yourself and ask questions later.

[The Governator]

So we can assume then that when a loved one is crying from emotional anguish or physical agony that he or she is not really suffering and that what our senses relay could be misinformation? Got it.



Look, the story has sapient beings being subjugated (enslavement) and 'digested' alive (torture and murder) because the Reapers are unconscionable supremacists. It would be markedly less heinous if they came along and:



Reapers: 'hey organics, uhhhh, we took a nap and now here you are...we used to feed off of non sapient creatures but now you have achieved it so...we're stuck, help us out?'



Citadel races: 'you snooze you lose!'



Reapers: 'Okay, fine. Have at thee, lesser creatures!'



But that's not the way it happened.

[Qario]

God, Bioware are gods when it comes to making an enemy that can be thought of in this way.

They sure are

[RighteousRage]

[cipher_Cero]

While we do not share your sense of ethics and morals, we see that the Old Machines' survival is detrimental to the course of natural evolution and survival of organic life.

The universe favors diversity. Natural evolution favors diversity.

The
Old Machines favor uniformity.

Should they fail to accept that their ways are ineffective, they will be rendered obsolete, be it through their extinction or other means.


It should also be noted that the Old Machines have made themselves a common enemy.

They now have the attention of several species infinitely their greater.

[The Angry One]

Vaenier wrote...

Reapers have as much right to kill us as we do to defend ourselves. Neither is superior to the other, they are just different.
Reapers eat us. We eat cows. Are we evil for eating a lesser life form? Would the cow be evil for defending itself? Its just the cycle of life. Get used to it.

Not really, I'm sure they could find other ways if they wanted to. They don't because they hold all life in utter contempt.
What's the need for such a huge population of Reapers for instance? That's out of control.
Hell, the Reapers are the ultimate evolutionary dead end. They're Homer Simpson in space, all they do is sleep and eat, if they're awake they need to eat, but they can't sustain their kind of consumption levels for more than a few centuries.
So they hibernate for 50,000 years while life in the galaxy recovers. That's a meaningless existance.

[The Governator]

Vaenier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

And given that the human-Reaper is immediately hostile, there's not much chance that the minds of millions of innocent non-combatant colonists are anywhere in there.

They were confused, scared. They acted on instinct. What woud you do if you suddenly woke up to some guy shooting at you. You would defend yourself and ask questions later.

Some people will take indefensible posotions because they posit that an intelligible, rational argument can be made for anything.  Wrong.  There is not transfer of consciosness.  The 'human reaper' is...I cannot believe I am entertaining this argument! 

[Biotic_Warlock]

RighteousRage wrote...

Ahhh, they are like the most interesting enemy in Halo, I love that game!
The husks are a bit like them really, zombies and stuff. Wonder what Bioware will come up next for the husks.

[RighteousRage]

I believe I've sufficiently covered anything that needs to be discussed in this thread. Goodbye, dear friends...

[The Angry One]

Vaenier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

And given that the human-Reaper is immediately hostile, there's not much chance that the minds of millions of innocent non-combatant colonists are anywhere in there.

They were confused, scared. They acted on instinct. What woud you do if you suddenly woke up to some guy shooting at you. You would defend yourself and ask questions later.

Don't be ridiculous. The human-Reaper doesn't hesitate for a second to climb up those platforms and shoot death-rays at you. It wasn't confused, it was following standard Reaper doctrine = kill anything you don't understand.
It's programs may have been immature but that definitely is NOT the sum total of millions of colonists since again, their brains were melted, a melted brain is about as useful as a melted intestine.

[XxCITIZENxX]

I for one welcome our new overlords.

[MutantSpleen]

The Angry One wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

Well Legion mentions that Nazara had many minds that act as one.

Minds which are programs.
Reaper programs appear to be advanced AI, as opposed to the VI level individual programs of the Geth.
That doesn't mean the humans turned into goop contribute anything to this, since our minds aren't programs. I imagine the Collectors had Reaper programs uploaded to the human-Reaper as it grew.

I don't know, I think there is something more to this. Some greater connection as to why the Reapers need organics.  Perhaps why Harbinger says "Prepare these humans for ascension" Ascension signifying some kind of transformation or travel to higher plane of existence.

[The Angry One]

XxCITIZENxX wrote...

I for one welcome our new overlords.

You're indoctrinated.

*shoots foot*

That is not acceptable.

[The Angry One]

MutantSpleen wrote...

I don't know, I think there is something more to this. Some greater connection as to why the Reapers need organics.

Possibly, but it definitely doesn't involve the mind. 

Perhaps why Harbinger says "Prepare these humans for ascension" Ascension signifying some kind of transformation or travel to higher plane of existence.

Again, Harbinger is full of crap. It's ascension to him because he views organic life as nothing.

[MutantSpleen]

Everyone is so quick to dismiss. No reason to rail against the truth because you don't like it.

You are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

[NICKjnp]

[/quote]

Perhaps why Harbinger says "Prepare these humans for ascension" Ascension signifying some kind of transformation or travel to higher plane of existence.

[/quote]

No... it was in game advertising.  That statement was meant for the player.  They are trying to get you to buy Mass Effect: Ascension.

[Flamewielder]

The Governator wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

That assumes we understand what the liquefying was doing, and that it was cruel. Despite how horrific it looked to an observer, perhaps it was just taking us to another level of existence.

...kaaaaaay.

To me, dead is dead. Wether you kill a living being through lethal injection or roast him alive on a gril is secondary. The end result is the same: a dead being. We may make ourselves feel better by making it painless but I'm sure the dead being would have rather stayed alive... In the end, we took on ourselves the power of life and death and we used it.

Do we bother wondering if fish feel any anguish or pain while slowly suffocating at the bottom of some fishing boat? I don't. I do favor painlessly putting down a sick or grieviously injured dog or cat. Why? Because fish feel no pain? Doubtful... We humans make a judgement that is mainly emotional, that is only loosely based on how high the animal happens to be on the evolutonary ladder...

Reapers are millions of years more advanced than the younger races. 800 millions of years ago the Earth was populated by colonial microorganisms living in shallow alluvial mudflats.  Some of these organisms will one day evolve into you and me. Would it stop me from eating some of them to survive? No. Would that make me "evil"? No.

Any attempt a morally judging the Reapers from a "universal" perspective is doomed to fail. Would humans consider Reapers "evil"? Some will, according to their own perspective. Do the Reapers feel any qualm about consuming a resource to survive and multiply? No. Do humans object to being liquefied? Of course I would! I like my individuality just fine, thank you, however painless you might be able to make it...

Do Reapers percieve humans more like fish, or like dogs? I'm betting Harbinger percieves us more like fish. Sovereign may even have percieved us more like dogs, preferring the painless assimilation of endoctrination over
the painful bio-assimilation on unendoctrinated subjects...

Was Sovereign more "humane" than Harbinger? Does it make either more sympathetic to humans? I doubt it...

Destroying the Reapers won't feel like a "righteous smitin' of evil" to me, but rather like a very hard and unpleasant necessary extermination. And that's from a player who has trouble playing anything but uber-paragons...

[Onyx Jaguar]

[quote]NICKjnp wrote...

[/quote]

Perhaps why Harbinger says "Prepare these humans for ascension" Ascension signifying some kind of transformation or travel to higher plane of existence.

[/quote]

No... it was in game advertising.  That statement was meant for the player.  They are trying to get you to buy Mass Effect: Ascension.[/quote]

Good old in game advertising.

Also I side with the Geth against the Quarians and here I side with... myself?  Reapers preparing humans for ascension is just saying that their forms will be used in the creation of Reapers, a higher lifeform as the Reapers are quite... I want to say Narcissistic but that isn't the proper word I am looking for

EDIT: WTF HAPPENED TO THE QUOTES

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 02 mars 2010 - 06:45 .

[The Angry One]

Let's look at some of Harbinger's lines.



"We are your genetic destiny"

Reapers aren't genetic. Are you talking about Collectors? Well which is it? Reapers or Collectors? Make up your mind!



"Preserve Shepards body."

You pervert.



"Asari - Reliance on other species for reproduction shows genetic weakness."

... and that's different from what you're doing how?



"That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction."

Wait isn't that what the Heaven's Gate cult said too?



Harbinger.

Is.

Full.

Of.

Crap.

[Qario]

The Angry One wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

I don't know, I think there is something more to this. Some greater connection as to why the Reapers need organics.

Possibly, but it definitely doesn't involve the mind. 

Perhaps why Harbinger says "Prepare these humans for ascension" Ascension signifying some kind of transformation or travel to higher plane of existence.

Again, Harbinger is full of crap. It's ascension to him because he views organic life as nothing.

Ofcourse the reapers view human life as nothing, read some of the previous posts, there are good some good comparisons. Harbringer doesn't say "ascension" to soften our extinsion, he says it because the reapers believe they are the pinnacle of evolution (which they are?), and when a lesser life form is made into a reaper, they ascend.

[The Angry One]

Qario wrote...

Ofcourse the reapers view human life as nothing, read some of the previous posts, there are good some good comparisons. Harbringer doesn't say "ascension" to soften our extinsion, he says it because the reapers believe they are the pinnacle of evolution (which they are?), and when a lesser life form is made into a reaper, they ascend.

Yes, but this doesn't make it true now, does it?
It's again only from Harbinger's point of view. Reapers are in fact quite a pathetic form of life. Not because they're machines - the Geth strive forward to evolve and learn. Reapers are just in stasis.
Maybe that's just the consequence of existing for millions of years, regardless, they need to go.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Reapers are lazy, just wait for civilizations to develop properly then they come in for the harvest. Pure Laziness. Instead of doing work themselves for resources they just wait awhile then come and kill everything then leave and wait awhile again. Useless existance really. If I were in their place I'd be working on traveling to other galaxies.

[Vaenier]

The Angry One wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Reapers have as much right to kill us as we do to defend ourselves. Neither is superior to the other, they are just different.
Reapers eat us. We eat cows. Are we evil for eating a lesser life form? Would the cow be evil for defending itself? Its just the cycle of life. Get used to it.

Not really, I'm sure they could find other ways if they wanted to. They don't because they hold all life in utter contempt.
What's the need for such a huge population of Reapers for instance? That's out of control.
Hell, the Reapers are the ultimate evolutionary dead end. They're Homer Simpson in space, all they do is sleep and eat, if they're awake they need to eat, but they can't sustain their kind of consumption levels for more than a few centuries.
So they hibernate for 50,000 years while life in the galaxy recovers. That's a meaningless existance.

Wow, you made this one to easy.

Why do humans need to infect every corner of this planet? Why do they need to choke themselves to death with dwindeling resources? We are trying to spread to new planets, do the same to them.
Reapers found balance. They could easily create trillions of themselves and just convert the entire mass of the galaxy into more Reapers.

What is a meaningful existance? How is us sleeping for 8 hours better then their sleeping for a few thousand years?

They are not better, they are not worse. They are different.

[Qario]

The Angry One wrote...

Qario wrote...

Ofcourse the reapers view human life as nothing, read some of the previous posts, there are good some good comparisons. Harbringer doesn't say "ascension" to soften our extinsion, he says it because the reapers believe they are the pinnacle of evolution (which they are?), and when a lesser life form is made into a reaper, they ascend.

Yes, but this doesn't make it true now, does it?
It's again only from Harbinger's point of view. Reapers are in fact quite a pathetic form of life. Not because they're machines - the Geth strive forward to evolve and learn. Reapers are just in stasis.
Maybe that's just the consequence of existing for millions of years, regardless, they need to go.

Ofcourse the reapers need to go - from a human point of view. From a reaper point of view they have the right to exist, as flamewielder have said a couple of times now, it's impossible to pass judgement on this enemy, because they're not evil, if they were humans would be evil wanting to continue existing aswell (look at all those previous comparisons between reapers and humans on earth IRL)

[Qario]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Reapers are lazy, just wait for civilizations to develop properly then they come in for the harvest. Pure Laziness. Instead of doing work themselves for resources they just wait awhile then come and kill everything then leave and wait awhile again. Useless existance really. If I were in their place I'd be working on traveling to other galaxies.

They can affort to be "lazy" because they've found the most effective way to ensure thier existance, by planting the citadel and mass relays and retreating into dark space.

Modifié par Qario, 02 mars 2010 - 06:57 .