211 réponses à ce sujet

[Pauravi]

I don't accept the basic premise that having other galactic civilization around somehow keeps other life from flourishing. Other civilizations often grow and flourish before they are ever discovered and once they are, are offered a place within the galactic community, just as humanity was.

Also, this point...

RighteousRage wrote...
The point of evolution is to find the most viable form of life. If humans beat the Reapers, the Reapers have been selected against.

Makes teh baby Jeebuz, and biology professors, cry. Evolution selects for traits that help a species survive to reproductive age within a given environment. Saying that humans beating the Reapers means that the Reapers have been "selected against" is like implying that committing genocide on another race proves that you're "more evolved". It is a ridiculous argument with no biological basis.

Modifié par Pauravi, 02 mars 2010 - 07:03 .

[The Angry One]

Vaenier wrote...

Wow, you made this one to easy.

Why do humans need to infect every corner of this planet? Why do they need to choke themselves to death with dwindeling resources? We are trying to spread to new planets, do the same to them.

What a moronic analogy. Have we choked ourselves to the point where our entire society must hibernate and do nothing for millenia? No? There's your answer.

Reapers found balance. They could easily create trillions of themselves and just convert the entire mass of the galaxy into more Reapers.

Sure and then they'd never eat anything ever again and die. Brilliant plan.

What is a meaningful existance? How is us sleeping for 8 hours better then their sleeping for a few thousand years?

They are not better, they are not worse. They are different.

This is not individuals sleeping to gain energy, this is an entire civilization doing absolutely nothing but sleeping and eating. If you don't see what's wrong with that then you have no hope.

[Vaenier]

RighteousRage wrote...

Isnt it nice when a game designer actualy developes their enemies so you arent left randomly speculating on their motives? The flood has a simple goal: to multiply. Covenant seek assension through The Great Journy, and are simply misguided races manipulated by the Prophets.

All we are doing is random guessing, trying to make any little thing mean something, because Bioware just didnt give us anything to work with. Lack of information is not amazing writing skill; it doesnt add to the character. Its just lazy. "These people want to kill you." "Whyyyyy?" "Just kill them, stop asking questions."

[The Angry One]

Qario wrote...

Ofcourse the reapers need to go - from a human point of view. From a reaper point of view they have the right to exist, as flamewielder have said a couple of times now, it's impossible to pass judgement on this enemy, because they're not evil, if they were humans would be evil wanting to continue existing aswell (look at all those previous comparisons between reapers and humans on earth IRL)

No they need to go from an evolutionary point of view as well, they themselves are a complete dead end. All they do is exist for the sake of existing, they don't advance, they don't grow, they don't *think* above their doctrine, and they actively retard the evolution of life in the galaxy.

[Vaenier]

The Angry One wrote...

What a moronic analogy. Have we choked ourselves to the point where our entire society must hibernate and do nothing for millenia? No? There's your answer.

Nope, we are still busy multiplying, using up our natural resources, and letting millions starve and live in filth. We are waring over the remaining oil. as we continue to multiply, we will start wars for space, for energy.
We enjoy killing each other, raping people. We torture other animals for fun. We harvest trillions of farm animals for food, when we could just eat plants.

I am sorry, you are right. We are far superior to Reapers. How could I have been so blind. [/sarcasm]

[Esker02]

Flamewielder wrote...

Any attempt a morally judging the Reapers from a "universal" perspective is doomed to fail. Would humans consider Reapers "evil"? Some will, according to their own perspective. Do the Reapers feel any qualm about consuming a resource to survive and multiply? No. Do humans object to being liquefied? Of course I would! I like my individuality just fine, thank you, however painless you might be able to make it...

Out of all the crazy in this thread - and there's plenty of it to go around (I'm looking at you, TC)- your unique brand of moral nihilism wins out. Your problem is you're treating the Reapers like they were dropped into the universe, totally innocent and uncontrolling of their nature. I might be able to sympathize, or at the very least understand, your position if the Reapers were wholly organic beings - their nature an unpredictable consequence of their particular chaotic evolution.

But they're not. They're constructs - meaning, their creators (and I'm coming more and more to the belief that their creators are the "original" Reapers, voluntarily sacrificed in a vain attempt at immortality) made them in this way, to be dependent on organic matter and to systematically harvest sentient beings. If I create a robot that I program to kill everything it sees, I am evil in its creation, yes, but the robot does not cease to be evil in its own right, as it was born of evil intentions.

Moreover, if my theory about what the Reapers are is correct, we don't even have THAT problem. They're both the creator AND the robot, and thus guilty either way. The Reapers are not intended to be, AT ALL, an enemy that is supposed to be sympathetic or have any depth to them. They're ruthless, arrogant, EVIL, killing machines. Literally. Your arguments to try and compare their relationship to us akin to our relationship to fish might hold some weight with me if you could produce the slightest evidence that the same kind of cognitive superiority over fish which we enjoy is true of them in relation to us.

I would think, by virtue of the fact we had a conversation with a Reaper, such a divide is nonexistent. Because trust me, the day I can communicate with a fish is the day I stop eating them. Good vs. Evil is not nearly as subjective as you're claiming.

Flamewielder wrote...

Destroying the Reapers won't feel like a "righteous smitin' of evil" to me, but rather like a very hard and unpleasant necessary extermination. And that's from a player who has trouble playing anything but uber-paragons...

And this is ridiculous and contradictory. I won't even bother to say, "See Above" for why it SHOULD in fact feel like a smiting of evil, but even under your own logic - you should feel no regret, just as you argue the Reapers should feel none. If it's all merely a struggle for survival, with no moral element, you have no reason to hesitate.

[Pauravi]

Vaenier wrote...

Isnt it nice when a game designer actualy developes their enemies so you arent left randomly speculating on their motives? The flood has a simple goal: to multiply.

No, that isn't "nice", it is boring.  It is a "villain" suitable only for manufacturing waves of things to shoot at in an FPS.

All we are doing is random guessing, trying to make any little thing mean something, because Bioware just didnt give us anything to work with. Lack of information is not amazing writing skill; it doesnt add to the character. Its just lazy.

On the contrary, I think Bioware has given us things to work with, just not enough to see the whole picture.  This is a common writing device and an effective one that was used in ME1 with regards to the Reapers and the Conduit.  You are given minimal clues about them until Virmire, when the nature of the enemy who was hidden right in front of you is revealed in rather dramatic fashion.  Once you go back and replay, I think you'll see that a lot of information was given; it was just that you didn't recognize it at the time.

[Zulu_DFA]

The OP is indoctrinated.

[Flamewielder]

[quote]NICKjnp wrote...

[/quote]

Perhaps why Harbinger says "Prepare these humans for ascension" Ascension signifying some kind of transformation or travel to higher plane of existence.

[/quote]

No... it was in game advertising.  That statement was meant for the player.  They are trying to get you to buy Mass Effect: Ascension.[/quote]

Good one!

[RighteousRage]

Pauravi wrote...

RighteousRage wrote...
The point of evolution is to find the most viable form of life. If humans beat the Reapers, the Reapers have been selected against.

Makes teh baby Jeebuz, and biology professors, cry. Evolution selects for traits that help a species survive to reproductive age within a given environment. Saying that humans beating the Reapers means that the Reapers have been "selected against" is like implying that committing genocide on another race proves that you're "more evolved". It is a ridiculous argument with no biological basis.

Haha good work on your high school science, but I was pointing out a sociological/ecological phenomenon rather than implying that evolution is some kind of battle royale. Evolution extends beyond biology, rather than being narrowly confined into an academic discipline that humans invented. You realize this, don't you? Or do you think the word "evolution" was invented in the 19th century? Did you actually read my other posts?

Either way, it probably still makes sense biologically, since the Reapers are likely pre-programmed and diametrically opposed to humanity and therefore compete for the same domineering niche in the galaxy-wide ecosystem.

Don't bother responding to this, I'm going to save myself the headache of humoring your undeservedly aggressive argument style.

Modifié par RighteousRage, 02 mars 2010 - 07:21 .

[The Angry One]

Vaenier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What a moronic analogy. Have we choked ourselves to the point where our entire society must hibernate and do nothing for millenia? No? There's your answer.

Nope, we are still busy multiplying, using up our natural resources, and letting millions starve and live in filth. We are waring over the remaining oil. as we continue to multiply, we will start wars for space, for energy.
We enjoy killing each other, raping people. We torture other animals for fun. We harvest trillions of farm animals for food, when we could just eat plants.

I am sorry, you are right. We are far superior to Reapers. How could I have been so blind. [/sarcasm]

So your solution to being called on using a stupid analogy is to keep using it?
I never said we are perfect, but we haven't painted ourselves into a corner where literally all we can do as a society is sleep and eat.
Case closed.

[Qario]

Isn't this great? As Pauravi wrote, bioware gives us minimal information, not just only in game but regarding the story. ME2 reveals new things about the reapers, everyone playing the game has his/her own thoughts about the reapers because they're so mystical. We post our opinions on the forum, we discuss and debate them. Pauravi again you said that this kind of enemy is "boring", on the contrary it's quite exiting have such an enemy you can make your own opinions and asumptions of.

[Vaenier]

Frak it. My final argument: All life is meaningless.

Our universe will not die with a bang, but a whimper. Space will expand to the point that mass is unable to hold itself together. Energy will dissipate till there is none left. In the end, there will be nothing. Our existence was but a spec. The reapers, having been in the galaxy for billions of years, are nothing more than a spec. Our battle for the right to exist is meaningless.

There is no point to trying.

Have a nice day.

[MutantSpleen]

The Angry One wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What a moronic analogy. Have we choked ourselves to the point where our entire society must hibernate and do nothing for millenia? No? There's your answer.

Nope, we are still busy multiplying, using up our natural resources, and letting millions starve and live in filth. We are waring over the remaining oil. as we continue to multiply, we will start wars for space, for energy.
We enjoy killing each other, raping people. We torture other animals for fun. We harvest trillions of farm animals for food, when we could just eat plants.

I am sorry, you are right. We are far superior to Reapers. How could I have been so blind. [/sarcasm]

So your solution to being called on using a stupid analogy is to keep using it?
I never said we are perfect, but we haven't painted ourselves into a corner where literally all we can do as a society is sleep and eat.
Case closed.

Then again the reapers have millions of years head start on us, who knows what stupid corner we would paint ourselves into.

Or perhaps they have sought out everything, learned everything and there is nothing else.  They actually are the pinnacle of evolution. As much as we would like to imagine some greater destiny for us, what if it just isn't possible?

[The Unfallen]

[SCANNING...



[][..::++NOTING INTERESTING DATA FILE++::==\\\\\\\\][]



[Interesting Query, [above posters]. I would like to also add my own.]



[I do believe that the "Reapers" have motives behind their actions. They don't just kill for the excitement, they kill because they have to and almost all organi...[DISCONNECTING FROM SERVER/{{I'm warning you.}}]

[The Angry One]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Then again the reapers have millions of years head start on us, who knows what stupid corner we would paint ourselves into.

Or perhaps they have sought out everything, learned everything and there is nothing else.  They actually are the pinnacle of evolution. As much as we would like to imagine some greater destiny for us, what if it just isn't possible?

I did say maybe their existance is a consequence for existing for so long. Either way, they're a dead end.

[Kaorunandrak]

Humans are stubborn by nature until we find the meaning of life and disprove or prove every single boogey man or god and every single solitary person accepts these findings we will keep advancing and moving forward in an effort to show that one guy who's entire family after thousands of years of existance doesnt belive that dinosaurs ever existed.

(and yes there are thousands of people who dont belive that dinosaurs existed)

so until then we will never "dead end".

Modifié par Kaorunandrak, 02 mars 2010 - 07:50 .

[The Unfallen]

[PROCESSING NEW DATA. STAND BY.]

[Like I have been trying to say for awhile now. Human just don't...]

{{Assuming Direct Control. You have been warned.}}

[Greetings.]

[I would like to introduce myself as an anonymous entity, but you can call me "That Yellow Bastard". I would also like to incite that this conversation will get you nowhere but into harms way with higher forces beyond your understanding and best be avoided! Continue at your own peril!]

[I am just a fellow "human", by the way, but prefer to remain anonymous. You can trust me to not put you into harms way! ;-)]

Modifié par That Yellow Bastard, 02 mars 2010 - 07:45 .

[DarthCaine]

Qario wrote...

We know the reapers have been reaping the galaxy for atleast 37 million years, but probably alot more than that, it gives me a headache trying to think about their origins which I applaud bioware for such a amazing story.

Ah, yes,  "Reapers" ,  *cough*Cthulu*cough*rip-off*cough*

Ah yes,  "Geth" ,  *cough*BSG*cough*rip-off*cough*

Modifié par DarthCaine, 02 mars 2010 - 07:55 .

[Pauravi]

RighteousRage wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

RighteousRage wrote...
The point of evolution is to find the most viable form of life. If humans beat the Reapers, the Reapers have been selected against.

Makes teh baby Jeebuz, and biology professors, cry. Evolution selects for traits that help a species survive to reproductive age within a given environment. Saying that humans beating the Reapers means that the Reapers have been "selected against" is like implying that committing genocide on another race proves that you're "more evolved". It is a ridiculous argument with no biological basis.

Haha good work on your high school science, but I was pointing out a sociological/ecological phenomenon rather than implying that evolution is some kind of battle royale.

No you weren't, you said
   "The Reapers' motives and humans' motives are conflicting, and both are
willing to fight to the death. The winner  shall be selected according
to which species is more fit, and the war will likely be entreated with
the genocide of one race or the other."
This isn't some socioeconomic phenomenon, this is a description of war.  This is exactly like saying that evolution is a battle royale, unless you're admitting that this is actually nothing that could properly be called evolution, which was my only real point.

Evolution extends beyond biology, rather than being narrowly confined into an academic discipline that humans invented. You realize this, don't you?

I understand that there are other things that can be likened to evolution... the moral development of a society, for instance, or the "evolution" of technology.  But in all these cases, the word evolution actually means something more akin to "progress"; they are subtly, but most certainly, different.  What you are describing is not like either of these things.  You are simply describing a conflict over resources, which is to say, "war".  Your argument is nothing more than saying that whoever wins a competition over resources is a superior and more "fit" (your word) species.  I'll leave it to you to decide if winning wars makes a species "superior", but the idea that some natural evolutionary process to determine the "fitter" species is at work within that conflict makes me cringe.

Or do you think the word "evolution" was invented in the 19th century?

No, but I do know that the word carries certain implications because of biological evolution.  For instance, it implies that something is a natural and unavoidable consequence of the order of things.  These implications were used to justify the idea that those who end up with the shorter straw somehow deserve their fate.  Likinging socioeconomic phenomena to evolution is what brought about Social Darwinism, a pseudointellectual idea bereft of worth if I have ever heard one.

Either way, it probably still makes sense biologically, since the Reapers are likely pre-programmed and diametrically opposed to humanity and therefore compete for the same domineering niche in the galaxy-wide ecosystem.

No, it doesn't make sense, and the galaxy could not be properly described as an ecosystem.  It is a fundamental trait of ecosystems that every part of it shares energy and resources in such a way that it creates an interdependent, structured system.  This does not describe the galaxy.

[Kaorunandrak]

And as i said before we don't brain wash baby seals into bashing their own brains in or brain wash cows into slaughtering themselves where Reapers do. They mind rape people into serving them and killing their own. This makes them "evil".

They remove free will from the life they take and enslave. They pervert life, they don't do it for survival they do it because they can. They do it cause thats what they do. Melting members of a species down and turning them into a reaper thats ment to bring about the complete and total genocide of its own species let alone the entire galactic civilization is an extremly "evil"/morally wrong act. Mind raping in general is evil. And seeing how their entire civilization is not only capable BUT perfoms these acts as a whole that makes their race "evil".

And the whole we eat cows when we could eat plants arguement is bs. Plants are no less of a living thing then a cow. They are a living breathing organsims just because they dont make cute little babies and have big round eyes to make you feel sorry for them doesn't mean that chopping up a whole plate of vegetables, pan frying them, or ingesting them is any less "wrong" then devouring a t-bone steak.

Either way you are kiling a living organism for your survival. Killing for pure survival has always been justified by the masses. So until i find out we are emiting humming noises that implant subliminal messages into the various species of organisims we eat that makes them go insane and FORCES them to kill their own and serve us without question I'm gonna enjoy my steak and mashed potatoes and go on knowing I'm a good person.

[LOLandStuff]

Harbinger is under the impression that humans should feel honored for being turned into goo for reproductive purpose. Just look at the other races, they are so inferior to the human race who's meant to be the next baby reaper and earn a place among them.
The Reapers are delusional if they believe they're doing anyone a favor and maybe the many minds are the people used to build one...that would be disturbing.

Modifié par LOLandStuff, 02 mars 2010 - 08:10 .

[RiverRat]

It's been a long time since high school biology... but I thought certain species, primates, evolved hands and opposable thumbs for holding objects and precise manipulations. Consequently early humans created tool. Some species of animals on Earth with opposable grips have been known to use stones, or sticks to achieve certain things.



So if humans, and all humanoids (Asari, Batarians, Salarians, Quarians, ect) evolved to use tools, and eventually complex technology which we really HAVE become dependent on, especially by this point in the Mass Effect universe, doesn't that make technology an extension of who all humanoids are as a species? Meaning evolution is more than just genetics.



Natural selection, or survival of the fittest... eh.. I'm not exactly sure that's applicable in this situation.



I'm tired. I forgot where I was going with this. Need more caffeine.

[cronshaw8]

the word "right" has no business in your post. "Rights" are entitlements that are assigned to members of a society based on moral codes; agreements; laws ect. Reapers are outside of any society. You might as well argue that Hurricane Katrina had the "right" to destroy New Orleans. Rights have nothing to do with a hurricane, hurricanes just are. If we could have stopped Hurricane Katrina we would have been morally obligated to do so. Just as Shepard is morally obligated to stop the Reapers. And the Reaper's sentience has nothing to do with it either. They have set themselves apart from and against every organic civilization and refuse to be judged/interpreted by those rules. So it is pointless to discuss their "rights"

[Qario]

cronshaw8 wrote...

the word "right" has no business in your post. "Rights" are entitlements that are assigned to members of a society based on moral codes; agreements; laws ect. Reapers are outside of any society. You might as well argue that Hurricane Katrina had the "right" to destroy New Orleans. Rights have nothing to do with a hurricane, hurricanes just are. If we could have stopped Hurricane Katrina we would have been morally obligated to do so. Just as Shepard is morally obligated to stop the Reapers. And the Reaper's sentience has nothing to do with it either. They have set themselves apart from and against every organic civilization and refuse to be judged/interpreted by those rules. So it is pointless to discuss their "rights"

Rights do have a role because as a species they are entitled to keep on existing, just as humans, turians, asari etc, they just happen to be in the position where the other part must be removed. Rights aren't just entitlements assigned to persons, it can be one persons or an entire race's right to exist because they worn born, and because you were born you're entitled to a life. Your argument about rights kinda arguing against United Nations declaration of human rights if I take it as an example, every person on this earth hasn't "earned" the right to live, they simply have the right to live.

You gotta see if from a reaper's point of view, if you were a reaper, and you've accapted that the most effective way to keep on existing is to extinguish organic life in the milky way in cycles, you have to right to keep existing. The only insanse thing here is that, that "right" consists of killing billions of people.

Modifié par Qario, 02 mars 2010 - 08:57 .