211 réponses à ce sujet

[Flamewielder]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

As a fully conscious, sentient being, I have the right to protest my extermination.

Absolutely! Just as Reapers protest against you resistence to it... But you have Shepard on your side and he's not JUST protesting...

[Esker02]

Flamewielder wrote...

I guess the point I'm trying to get accross is that, as I do not feel hatred towards the ants I have to destroy or the cattle I need to slaugther, I cannot expect the Reapers to hate the races they destroy out of necessity. As I stated on a previous post, Reapers have no choice but to exterminate unharvested sentients before they get a chance to retalliate. Harvest the best, exterminate the rest. Cold? Absolutely! Renagade? Definitely! Callous? I agree! Do I agree with Vigil's (and the Protheans) assessment of the situation? 100%! The Protheans' (and Shepard's) sole preoccupation is stopping the Reapers, not understanding them. To label them "evil" is to claim understanding their motives, which we simply don't.

I'm not saying they should be allowed to continue their cycle. I agree with the Proteans that it is slaughter on a monstrous scale. Does Shepard hate them? He's clearly revolted by the horror of it; heck, my Shepard blew up the Collector base because he figured whatever horrific technology the Reapers left in it would bite Humanity in the nether parts... Can you call "evil" a being who is a consummate pragmatic? Whatever reason the Reapers have to reproduce, be it companionship, a desire to diversify to increase their survival chances as a species, an unlikely and alien desire to "elevate" young species to their "ascended" stage or actively pursuing what they consider the apex of their evolution, bottom line is: they reproduce. Their extermination of unselected sentient races is a matter of survival. Hatred has no meaning in their complex minds, nor relevance.

To consider them "evil" is to state that they do "evil" deeds for the simple sick joy of it. I doubt that's how they see it... They do what they do because it makes cold logical sense from their perspective.

Now the extermination of humans by humans, THAT I have no trouble describing as evil. Inflicting pain and suffering on your peers is evil. Why do I say this? Because humans, sharing more or less the same intelligence, should have the same understanding of the proprieties of living in society. To willingly go against accepted behavior to exploit/hurt a peer is what I consider evil. I just don't think Reapers and the ME3 species (including the Geth) have enough in common to share a common set of moral values.

I hope you're enjoying this discussion as much as I am... very stimulating!

Oh I am - no worries there.

I still would say that you're losing something in the creation process - in that they are machines, and thus whoever created them with such a necessity (that is, harvesting sentient beings) was evil. Given that, they are spawn of those same evil intentions, and they themselves retain, as an inescapable part of their essence in a very real sense, a degree of that evil. The Collector Base is an interesting example, actually, because I feel it captures part of what I'm talking about. Even without the collectors, and even separate from its technology, there's a sense that the place is just evil (not its technology, but the base in and of itself) purely because of the fact it's entire purpose is to commit atrocities on human beings. 

I fully understand and in many ways agree that the Reapers' actions are not "evil" in the sense that they aren't done because the Reapers actually take enjoyment (and as they strike me as closer to machines, I'm not even sure they could take enjoyment in the first place) out of them or they're doing them for "evil's sake" (though whether that is possible is problematic in the first place). What I'm saying is that it is the Reapers themselves - their very being, which is evil. Any individual action can be explained away as being some kind of logical necessity for whatever twisted ends they have been programmed to seek, but taken as an entity a Reaper, born of death and committed to programming that commands senseless (not in the sense that they see it as senseless, but as an objective measure) genocide.

I'm also not convinced by your concluding paragraph. If moral values are not by some mandate which is universal (that is, natural law) then it's hard to justify why any atrocity (between species or among them) could be labeled as evil so long as the party perpetrating the evil could show why it was, to them, the best possible course of action. After all, if morality can vary between species (that is, Reapers and otherwise) what exactly is preventing it from varying between humanity and turians? Or one group of humans versus another? It seems arbitrary to claim "accepted behavior" is the standard, because such acceptance of behavior is fleeting.

It seems you'd have to pick one or the other. Either the Reapers are evil because they murder sentient beings (for some people this is enough) for senseless and / or selfish reasons, or nothing is evil because that kind of standard presupposes a measure that is arbitrary, varying, and ultimately unreal.

[Flamewielder]

Kaorunandrak wrote...

The geth are not sentient they are simply aware. Nothing will ever change the fact they are machines that are manufactured and constructed. Originally by the quarians and later by themselves something thats constructed wether its SCI-FI or not cannot live. (unless we're in the transformers universe where there is a robot cube god that makes robot babies.)

Sentient: def.: 1. Responsive to or conscious of sense impressions, 2. Aware, 3. Finely sensitive in perception or feeling (Merriam-Webster).

The Geth, as I said before, are clearly and unquestionably sentient, even if they are constructs. Wether you're assembled from a digital plan and metal or from genes and proteins and sugar, your construction does not define your spirit/persona. What defines you is the intricate network created by the neurons of your brain, just as the Geth are an intricate network of billions of individual sub-routines. From a strictly scientific standpoint, I see no fundamental difference. You might argue organics have a soul but religion is a matter of faith, not facts.

the reapers are the same as the geth the only difference is they use flesh paste in theyre costruction. If you tore out the heart and brain of a person and put it into your computer and wrote a program that based off that persons personality and it interacted with you based on its program would you call that a living computer simply because it has fleshy parts as well?

I'd call it a bio-mecanical VI if it was not sentient, an AI if it was. Nobody's done a Turing test on the Reapers but everybody in the ME universe seems in agreement that they are AI and are therefore sentient bio-mechanical constructs.

The Reapers are rogue AI with a star ship as a body and nothing more. They have no feelings and operate on logic and programing alone. They make more of themselves IMO simply to be more efficient in theyre killing or simply to replace that which was lost. Based off of what we saw with them making a human reaper most assumed Soverign was a Prothean reaper. But in the ending scene I dont know about you but all I saw was robosquids no other different design but robosquids.

If they are no more than machines, then why bother with collecting genetic material from organics? If Asari reproduced among themselves before they encountered other space-faring species, why this stigma associated with purebloods? They are obviously not all Ardat-Yakshis. But the Asari offspring inherits certain personality traits from their non-asari parent and perhaps some physiological traits as well. The asari matriarch bartender has very obvious traits inherited from her krogan "father", these alien traits are valued in asari society. Why would Reapers not desire similar variety in outlook/attitude inherited from the species harvested? Lemmings all think alike: the also all jump off then same cliff... Different Reapers from different species will have different perspectives on problems, increasing the probability of survival for the group.

And if all there is is robosquids then there goes the "genetic diversity" theory.(I'm not saying I'm right only basing this on what I have seen and read personally) whomever created them originally dropped the ball and is responsible for the genocide of countless beings.

When I use genetic diversity when talking about the Reapers, I use it in the same sense as I'd use it for the Asari: Asari all look alike, yet may have parents of any sentient organic species. Reapers can therefore look alike and be made from different species. The human reaper was not yet fully assembled, we have no way of saying what it would have looked like for sure, but I'm betting he'd have looked like another "robosquid" too...

[newcomplex]

RiverRat wrote...

Hrrm. No. Galaxy wide mass genocide to maintain the 'order' of organic life? We might not have been given the chance, perhaps. But we owe them nothing.

Is killing ants wrong?  

Modifié par newcomplex, 03 mars 2010 - 02:49 .

[NoUserNameHere]

Good job taking a stand for freedom, OP. When the Anti-Spiral rise to extinguish sentient life, squelch evolution, and generally go about instilling absolute despair in people, I know JUST who I'm going to call...

[NoUserNameHere]

Double Post! Double Post!

Modifié par NoUserNameHere, 03 mars 2010 - 02:43 .

[Esker02]

Flamewielder wrote...

Sentient: def.: 1. Responsive to or conscious of sense impressions, 2. Aware, 3. Finely sensitive in perception or feeling (Merriam-Webster).

The Geth, as I said before, are clearly and unquestionably sentient, even if they are constructs. Wether you're assembled from a digital plan and metal or from genes and proteins and sugar, your construction does not define your spirit/persona. What defines you is the intricate network created by the neurons of your brain, just as the Geth are an intricate network of billions of individual sub-routines. From a strictly scientific standpoint, I see no fundamental difference. You might argue organics have a soul but religion is a matter of faith, not facts.

Self-awareness. Free will. Things the Geth lack. They replicate life - they don't truly live it.

[newcomplex]

Reapers are independent, conscious beings with their own, relatively human rationale for doing things. They are far far below the Old Gods of lovecraft. More like Martians from war of the worlds. Technologically vastly superior, signficantly smarter, but on/near same ken of existance.



This can all be proven through one statement.



They brag. Their constantly bragging about how good they are.



Bragging requires pride.



Pride requires the ability to be proud in yourself. Yourself requires sentience. Sentience requires rationale. Rationale requires "choice", or the ability to draw a conclusion from internally created factors. (not "free choice", which may not exist, the universe is deterministic, just choice, or the illusion of choice).



The fact that they have choice means that they, even if they have origins as rogue geth like A.I, are fully aware of their actions, not operating under programming. They have a reason to do what they do.





imho reapers are lame. we should kill em and become reapers. were smarterz lul

[newcomplex]

Esker02 wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...

Sentient: def.: 1. Responsive to or conscious of sense impressions, 2. Aware, 3. Finely sensitive in perception or feeling (Merriam-Webster).

The Geth, as I said before, are clearly and unquestionably sentient, even if they are constructs. Wether you're assembled from a digital plan and metal or from genes and proteins and sugar, your construction does not define your spirit/persona. What defines you is the intricate network created by the neurons of your brain, just as the Geth are an intricate network of billions of individual sub-routines. From a strictly scientific standpoint, I see no fundamental difference. You might argue organics have a soul but religion is a matter of faith, not facts.

Self-awareness. Free will. Things the Geth lack. They replicate life - they don't truly live it.

Under the accepted scientific model (which is what your debating right, not religion?), their is no such a thing as free will.   Essentially, all things are casual results of something else, which can only one output, including the human brain.   From the information stored in all the universe at this second, one can know the state of the universe at any given point in time (though said information would be retardedly hard to get, even for nigh-godlike beings)

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Determinism.

The only possible way to avoid that it remaining relatively REMOTELY close to "Science" is through certain quantum mechanic prediction mechanics.  

Essentially, the idea that a mind "chooses" choices in the same way reality "chooses" whether schrodingers cat is alive or dead once an observer sees it.   non-determinstically.    (semi)"randomly".

http://en.wikipedia....causes_collapse

loophole?   um...

Now....what is EDI, what the reapers internal tech help make, built out of

ohya a quantum blue box

Modifié par newcomplex, 03 mars 2010 - 02:56 .

[NoUserNameHere]

newcomplex wrote...

RiverRat wrote...

Hrrm. No. Galaxy wide mass genocide to maintain the 'order' of organic life? We might not have been given the chance, perhaps. But we owe them nothing.

Is killing ants wrong?  

Except that sentient life is obviously more than an annoyance to the Reapers. Organics are a vital part of their reproductive cycle.

It'd be like me going to some village in Africa, killing them all, then using their blood to create a new computer. Doesn't matter how fast the computer is, it's still wrong. I certainly wouldn't expect the villagers to sit back and take it without a fight.

[newcomplex]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

RiverRat wrote...

Hrrm. No. Galaxy wide mass genocide to maintain the 'order' of organic life? We might not have been given the chance, perhaps. But we owe them nothing.

Is killing ants wrong?  

Except that sentient life is obviously more than an annoyance to the Reapers. Organics are a vital part of their reproductive cycle.

It'd be like me going to some village in Africa, killing them all, then using their blood to create a new computer. Doesn't matter how fast the computer is, it's still wrong. I certainly wouldn't expect the villagers to sit back and take it without a fight.

what if said computer is vital to the continued survival of the human race?   

[Esker02]

newcomplex wrote...

Under the accepted scientific model (which is what your debating right, not religion?), their is no such a thing as free will.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Determinism.

The only possible way to avoid that it remaining relatively REMOTELY close to "Science" is through certain quantum mechanic prediction mechanics.  

Essentially, the idea that a mind "chooses" choices in the same way reality "chooses" whether schrodingers cat is alive or dead once an observer sees it.   non-determinstically.    (semi)"randomly".

http://en.wikipedia....causes_collapse

loophole?   um...

Now....what is EDI, what the reapers internal tech help make, built out of

ohya a quantum blue box

Yes, I'm aware of everything you described - I don't believe it. Free will exists - science will simply have to catch up to metaphysical libertarians one day.

Regardless, we'll accept the contemporary model for now. Good for EDI. And the Reapers. I was talking about the Geth.

[newcomplex]

also, in terms of what consciousness is....

if it looks like poop, smells like poop, and tastes like poop, your a ****ing retard you just ate poop. Stop at the smelling plz.

but srsly...same applies to consciousness. Theirs no way to tell that I'm conscious and not some incredibly advance AI that looks conscious but actually isn't.  If your thought is that god created consciousness, what reason do we have to assume the Asari are conscious?   Perhaps were the only ones that got souls?

If your don't believe in god, theirs no rationale for geth not having consciousnesses.   None.   At all.    

Modifié par newcomplex, 03 mars 2010 - 03:02 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

The Reapers are a bunch of ****s who apparently harvest intelligent life for their own needs and build ships out of people-goo because they are bored.



I don't give a damn about whatever they say. Naturally they want everybody to just bend over a die for them. The only thing anybody owes them is bullets. They may not have even constructed the Mass Relays either.

[Esker02]

newcomplex wrote...

Theirs no way to tell that I'm conscious and not some incredibly advance AI that looks conscious but actually isn't.

Low standards of reality. The fact would remain - you would be conscious, the AI that looks conscious would not be.

Modifié par Esker02, 03 mars 2010 - 03:01 .

[marshalleck]

Esker02 wrote...

Yes, I'm aware of everything you described - I don't believe it. Free will exists - science will simply have to catch up to metaphysical libertarians one day.

Right...metaphysics lost the fight with science long ago. Just like religion before it.

[newcomplex]

Esker02 wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Theirs no way to tell that I'm conscious and not some incredibly advance AI that looks conscious but actually isn't.

Low standards of reality. The fact would remain - you would be conscious, the AI that looks conscious would not be.

...why not?  

You might as well argue black people aren't conscous.   cuz people did that, with the same logic your using.  (IE:None at all)    

Modifié par newcomplex, 03 mars 2010 - 03:06 .

[newcomplex]

marshalleck wrote...

Esker02 wrote...

Yes, I'm aware of everything you described - I don't believe it. Free will exists - science will simply have to catch up to metaphysical libertarians one day.

Right...metaphysics lost the fight with science long ago. Just like religion before it.

Science without "religion" is meaingless.   utterly meaningless.    (by religion, I mean some degree of irrational faith).    

I posited this in another thread, but science is incapable of answering the meaning of life because life has no meaning, meaning is a human construction.    Saying the universe has a meaning is like saying the earth is the center of it, IE:  retardedly anthrocentric.    Humans cannot accept the lack of meaning, and thus, need belief, irrationality.    Simply put, why do you live?   Family, love, sex, evolution, drugs, all of them lack a universal determinant for meaningfullness.    By living for them, you are believing in an irrational, the religion of human princepals.    

[newcomplex]

Anyway, its wrong, because were operating by our own morals. Annihilation of human race=bad, unless its to save something bigger I guess (the universe? The galaxy?)

Unless we know why, without a doubt, its wrong.   The ramblings of a crazy powerful starship do not count.  

Modifié par newcomplex, 03 mars 2010 - 03:15 .

[kanodin]

Flamewielder wrote...

Esker02 wrote...

You can take one of two approaches. The Vigil approach "In the end, what does it matter? Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them."

I guess the point I'm trying to get accross is that, as I do not feel hatred towards the ants I have to destroy or the cattle I need to slaugther, I cannot expect the Reapers to hate the races they destroy out of necessity. As I stated on a previous post, Reapers have no choice but to exterminate unharvested sentients before they get a chance to retalliate. Harvest the best, exterminate the rest. Cold? Absolutely! Renagade? Definitely! Callous? I agree! Do I agree with Vigil's (and the Protheans) assessment of the situation? 100%! The Protheans' (and Shepard's) sole preoccupation is stopping the Reapers, not understanding them. To label them "evil" is to claim understanding their motives, which we simply don't.

I'm not saying they should be allowed to continue their cycle. I agree with the Proteans that it is slaughter on a monstrous scale. Does Shepard hate them? He's clearly revolted by the horror of it; heck, my Shepard blew up the Collector base because he figured whatever horrific technology the Reapers left in it would bite Humanity in the nether parts... Can you call "evil" a being who is a consummate pragmatic? Whatever reason the Reapers have to reproduce, be it companionship, a desire to diversify to increase their survival chances as a species, an unlikely and alien desire to "elevate" young species to their "ascended" stage or actively pursuing what they consider the apex of their evolution, bottom line is: they reproduce. Their extermination of unselected sentient races is a matter of survival. Hatred has no meaning in their complex minds, nor relevance.

To consider them "evil" is to state that they do "evil" deeds for the simple sick joy of it. I doubt that's how they see it... They do what they do because it makes cold logical sense from their perspective.

Now the extermination of humans by humans, THAT I have no trouble describing as evil. Inflicting pain and suffering on your peers is evil. Why do I say this? Because humans, sharing more or less the same intelligence, should have the same understanding of the proprieties of living in society. To willingly go against accepted behavior to exploit/hurt a peer is what I consider evil. I just don't think Reapers and the ME3 species (including the Geth) have enough in common to share a common set of moral values.

I hope you're enjoying this discussion as much as I am... very stimulating!

There is one flaw in your argument that the Reapers harvest all organic life in a cold pragmatic manner, and that's our conversations with them. Sovereign and Harbinger make it clear that they hold all organic life in contempt and enjoy wiping it out "I KNOW YOU FEEL THIS" for example. While we still do not and may never know their motives, the fact that they take pleasure in genocide makes them evil, to keep up with the ant analogy they are kids with magnifying glasses sitting on the anthill.

[GnusmasTHX]

Killing ants is fun.



I used to dig up red ant colonies for the queen, then drop it on a black ant colony.



The ensuing total war between the two colonies was awesome. Had to hose my front walkway to get rid of all the carnage, though.



Those red ants were scrappers, too. Killing two black ants for every one red ant, badass.

[newcomplex]

Vaenier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What a moronic analogy. Have we choked ourselves to the point where our entire society must hibernate and do nothing for millenia? No? There's your answer.

Nope, we are still busy multiplying, using up our natural resources, and letting millions starve and live in filth. We are waring over the remaining oil. as we continue to multiply, we will start wars for space, for energy.
We enjoy killing each other, raping people. We torture other animals for fun. We harvest trillions of farm animals for food, when we could just eat plants.

I am sorry, you are right. We are far superior to Reapers. How could I have been so blind. [/sarcasm]

your breathing my air, kill yourself.

lol that wasn't suppose to be a insult though, though I am the kind of poser who would use that as an insult, rather, why don't you follow your own advice and stop using our resources? (not air lol, but something else, like food).


This argument shouldn't exist.    Morals are relative to culture, unless you believe in god (lets not go into that here).   Humans think the elimnation of the entire human race is wrong.    That should be obvious.   If you would honestly do that for no reason, you should be dead, or in the process of self-termination or actively plotting to accomplish that.   Since you are hopefully doing neither, thats an invalid statement.

So it comes down to sacrifice.   The reapers have given us no cause to sacrifice to other then a single statement "we are your salvation through desctruction"...if your that easily persuaded by a single statement in real life, awesome.

I am your salvation through destuction.  Give me your money.  Email me at asdawdawg@yahoo.com, we'll work out the transaction through paypal.

Modifié par newcomplex, 03 mars 2010 - 03:23 .

[marshalleck]

newcomplex wrote...

Science without "religion" is meaingless.   utterly meaningless.    (by religion, I mean some degree of irrational faith).    

I posited this in another thread, but science is incapable of answering the meaning of life because life has no meaning, meaning is a human construction.    Saying the universe has a meaning is like saying the earth is the center of it, IE:  retardedly anthrocentric.    Humans cannot accept the lack of meaning, and thus, need belief, irrationality.    Simply put, why do you live?   Family, love, sex, evolution, drugs, all of them lack a universal determinant for meaningfullness.    By living for them, you are believing in an irrational, the religion of human princepals.    

Incoherent ramblings. This post is meaningless, if I may be so blunt. I'm not even sure why you directed it at me.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 mars 2010 - 03:24 .

[Flamewielder]

Esker02 wrote...

Oh I am - no worries there.

I still would say that you're losing something in the creation process - in that they are machines, and thus whoever created them with such a necessity (that is, harvesting sentient beings) was evil. Given that, they are spawn of those same evil intentions, and they themselves retain, as an inescapable part of their essence in a very real sense, a degree of that evil. The Collector Base is an interesting example, actually, because I feel it captures part of what I'm talking about. Even without the collectors, and even separate from its technology, there's a sense that the place is just evil (not its technology, but the base in and of itself) purely because of the fact it's entire purpose is to commit atrocities on human beings.

I like this!  Then the "evil" you are talking about resided originally in their creator and the Reapers are buit to be "evil"? Mmmm... Then consider this:  A precursor organic race with advanced technology residing closer to the galaxy core is experiencing irreversible radiation damage due to higher stellar density. They figure the only way to save their population is to ascend their individual consciousness into a single large ship, becoming a new collectible consciousness (similar to what Legion describes). The ascension is voluntary, the patients sedated so the transition is painless. The resulting consciousness is first a blabber of trillions of voices from which a choir-like pattern eventually emerges. The new "choir" is happy for a couple million years, then starts to get bored/lonely/worried that, as a single unique being, it is still destructible. It goes on to search for some other advanced species willing to undergo the same process. Perhaps at first, it did find such volunteers. Perhaps after a while they didn't... Perhaps, after a while, they convinced themselves it was better to consciously decide where they should evolve, rather than leave it to chance. Perhaps they decided they'd "collect" species wether they'd like to or not... Some of the species reacted with hostility, perhaps destroying a Reaper or too (a genocide per Reaper, really, from the Reaper's point of view)... I see an escalating pattern of ruthlessness developing here, like that of an overly controlling parent who thinks "he knows best" for her child.

I'm also not convinced by your concluding paragraph. If moral values are not by some mandate which is universal (that is, natural law) then it's hard to justify why any atrocity (between species or among them) could be labeled as evil so long as the party perpetrating the evil could show why it was, to them, the best possible course of action. After all, if morality can vary between species (that is, Reapers and otherwise) what exactly is preventing it from varying between humanity and turians? Or one group of humans versus another? It seems arbitrary to claim "accepted behavior" is the standard, because such acceptance of behavior is fleeting.

Ah... Socrates argues in favor of the concept that virtue is universal, that is "natural" as you say. (I love it when sci-fi raises challenging philosophical questions!) Other philosophers would argue that virtue is not universal and that humans feel little guilt over abusing another human being when they have somehow de-humanized him/her. The victime is obviously human to you and me, but not to the abuser. Still you and I would agree that the abuser is an evil person, an observation the abuser (who may have a loving family at home) will emphatically deny. You can change the behavior of the abuser through punishment/therapy/education/propaganda because he's human and shares commonality in cultural values. The Reapers do not share any commonality with us. They are convinced they are right and after a couple million years, we will not change their mind...

It seems you'd have to pick one or the other. Either the Reapers are evil because they murder sentient beings (for some people this is enough) for senseless and / or selfish reasons, or nothing is evil because that kind of standard presupposes a measure that is arbitrary, varying, and ultimately unreal.

Then I would argue senselessness from our perspective and selfishness from theirs, as they do not consider the death of an individual organic as murder.

[Esker02]

marshalleck wrote...

Right...metaphysics lost the fight with science long ago. Just like religion before it.

Metaphysics hasn't lost any fight with science - bit by bit metaphysics becomes a PART of science. It's all a pursuit for higher knowledge, and metaphysics addresses current gaps in our scientific understandings. Things like Free Will, which we operate under day by day (even if you don't believe in it, your daily routine depends on it) and any yokel can tell you is a real force in their life. Determinism is a convenient illusion caused by a linear perception of time. But true determinism has long since been abandoned. The random element, still, doesn't capture the reality of consciousness and the reality of the condition of self-awareness. One day science will capture all of reality, free will included - it just doesn't yet. Much like it didn't incorporate various other aspects of reality at earlier times.

But just because it can't capture it yet, doesn't make it unreal. Not when its truth is so self-evident. Regardless, I'm not here to debate this. Even if you put EDI and the Reapers on a nice pedestal because of their "quantum blue box"es, you still leave the Geth out in the cold. Which (to turn back to the ME universe) for a Quarian sympathizer, is all I could ever want. So I've no further interest here.

newcomplex wrote...

...why not?  

You might as well argue black people aren't conscous.   cuz people did that, with the same logic your using.  (IE:None at all)    

No need for the petty insults, my good man. Just a little intelligent disagreement. I, of course, would never argue such a thing. Different races are, obviously, still organic and born - not constructed.